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View Full Version : DM Help What makes a Sci-Fi rpg a "Space Western" RPG?



Briton
2018-01-31, 07:43 PM
Recently I got a copy of Paizo's "Starfinder Core Rulebook" and have access to most of Paizo's other starfinder material. I expressed to my gaming group the possibility of running a Starfinder campaign and the idea of "Space Western" was tossed around. Needless to say, myself and many of my players would be heavily interested in a space western, but I this is relatively new territory for me.

These are some of my questions:


What makes a Space Western RPG different from other rpgs?
What kind of adventures would be suitable for a space western?
What guidelines should I give my players in regards to developing characters in a space western?
This campaign will be ran using Starfinder. For those who have had a chance to use Starfinder, what home-brew changes would you recommend?
Currently most of my information comes from Firefly. Do you have other recomendations I should consider?



If you have had experience in running a space western rpg, I appreciate any info you may be willing to share.

kitanas
2018-01-31, 08:09 PM
May be a dumb question, but do you know what a western is? Because a space western is a western, in sspaaaaace!

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-31, 08:14 PM
May be a dumb question, but do you know what a western is? Because a space western is a western, in sspaaaaace!

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. As for other ideas, Cowboy Bebop might not hurt, through its far more subtle. But Firefly is 100% Space Western, so I don't even know what else to recommend.

As for how to run one, I suggest the following:

Some sort of horse or horse-expy. Cyborg-horses, robots, or alien lizard mounts are all good.
Desert type planet. Yeah, a bit of a cheap shot, but it would explain why the settlement/planet is frontier, rather than everyone showing up.
Speaking of frontier, many westerns focus on small towns in hostile conditions with bandits. Getting help from 'civilization' is rare, so both cattle rustlers and vigilantes abound. Exploration might be a good thing to consider as well.
I haven't played Starfinder, but I'd cook up a reason for why things can't just wander over willy-nilly. You need a reason for a frontier, be it space bandits, remoteness or hostile conditions.

Thrudd
2018-01-31, 08:18 PM
"Space western" would be a type of setting, not a type of RPG. You need to design the setting so it has "western" elements.

That would be: The game takes place on a frontier, far from more established civilization (if there still is one),

each (small) settlement basically ruling itself in the way the people there see fit, with loose to non-existent laws.

Somewhat loose law-enforcement in most areas the game takes place in, mainly small local forces (sheriff and a few deputies) and/or "frontier justice" aka vigilantism to deal with unacceptable behavior

basically free market, traders, no legal commercial or business oversight. Settlements need to be mostly self-sufficient, so people there would be engaged in subsistence agriculture, practicing necessary crafts and trades, or seeking wealth from the local natural resources (miners). Some people be trading between settlements.

There may be relatively small military units posted here and there or patrolling from the far-away civilization that people are coming from (if you want the civilization to even exist any more).

There will likely be native inhabitants that are sometimes in conflict with the settlers. Maybe the natives travel from planet to planet (like the Ravagers), or are local lifeforms of various planets, or both.

lots of open space in which people could run away and stay hidden, and/or claim their own bit of land (maybe even a whole planet!)

CharonsHelper
2018-01-31, 08:40 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. As for other ideas, Cowboy Bebop might not hurt, through its far more subtle. But Firefly is 100% Space Western, so I don't even know what else to recommend.


"Space Western" is a good deal broader than Firefly (which I like - but it's really hits you over the head with the 'western' aspects to the point where it doesn't really make sense).

I've even heard the original Star Trek as falling into the genre - with its focus upon frontier & expanding ever further.

There are several other good animes which qualify - with Outlaw Star being perhaps the most blatant.

I do think that space western style settings are arguably the best for TTRPGs so that a small group of PCs can make a difference, and I'm actually a bit surprised how little Starfinder's setting pushed that style of play.

*blatant plug* I've actually been working on a TTRPG for the past couple years - Space Dogs (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y1ew2wf5u1m7kc3/AAD_q3oS1xcdAI_-F2mKmmkya?dl=0) - which I consider to be a "Swashbuckling Space Western". :smallcool:

Darth Ultron
2018-01-31, 11:54 PM
Well, I guess it's a bit obvious, but you could go watch some Westerns and some Sci Fi Space type movies and shows.

For Westerns it should be obvoius that you can watch any John Wyane or Clint Eastwood western. Also: The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Unforgiven, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Tombstone, Maverick, The Magnificent Seven, High Noon, and Once Upon A Time In The West. TV shows: Longmire, Deadwood, Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Maverick, Kung fu, and Lonesome Dove.

Sci Fi, of course, Star Trek, is the go too here. And Firefly, The Expanse, and Stargate.

And the Space Westerns themselves: Star Trek, Westworld, Buck Rogers, and Flash Gordon.

1.A Space Western is just a setting. Every setting is different. So it's not really an ''rpg'' thing, but more of a setting thing.

2.Well, any really. After all humans have been doing the same things forever. Anything can happen in a space western, kinda like any other place.

3.Again most character types can ''fit'' in anywhere, so you don't need to make one special for the setting. I guess you could tell them to make a cowboy/cowgirl?


Things in a space western:

1.Vast space. Lots and lots of space. Civilization is far and in between....and a couple places not so civilized. To go anywhere takes a huge amount of time. In space this can be both far distances, but also long travel times.

2.Your on your Own. Maybe you have a good pal or two, but mostly your on your own. You want something done, YOU must do it your self. There is no help.

3.Light Law and Order. A couple spots of civilization might have some light law and order....and the whole rest of everything everywhere is literally the Wild West. There is no law to help or protect you most of the time and in most places.

4.Light Communication. If someone is any further away then you can shout, you will have a hard time getting a hold of them. Messages can be sent, slowly, and they might make it. There is nothing like a 'phone call' or live chat except in the spots of civilization.

5.Wild Harsh Untamed Wilderness. Vast areas that have seen little or even no passage by people. Food and water can often be a challenge to find. Lots of places are near impassable. And there are plenty of wild animals....and monsters.

6.Other People NOT of your culture. In Westerns this is Indians, in space it's aliens...but the concept for both is the same: groups of people different from you that you know little or nothing about. Mostly, at best they are a it standoffish, and at worst enemies.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-31, 11:59 PM
I've even heard the original Star Trek as falling into the genre - with its focus upon frontier & expanding ever further.


"Wagon Train to the stars."

Mutazoia
2018-02-01, 07:04 AM
Cowboy Bebop might not hurt, through its far more subtle. But Firefly is 100% Space Western, so I don't even know what else to recommend.

I would also suggest Trigun, as well as an episode of the original Battlestar Galactica TV show "The Lost Warrior". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TOwT-P1_WI) The old movie "Battle Beyond the Stars" is basically "The Magnificent Seven" in spaaaaaace, and there was a cartoon in the 80's called "Galaxy Rangers" that was pretty much Texas Rangers in spaaaace.

CharonsHelper
2018-02-01, 08:20 AM
I would also suggest Trigun,

While it definitely channelled a lot of westerns - I'm not sure that it qualifies since only a prequel episode actually took place in space.

Plus - it's very NOT a good example for a TTRPG. I don't think I could stand it if someone tried to be such an annoying pacifist character. (Get some tranq darts or SOMETHING!)

Cealocanth
2018-02-01, 10:48 AM
Recently I got a copy of Paizo's "Starfinder Core Rulebook" and have access to most of Paizo's other starfinder material. I expressed to my gaming group the possibility of running a Starfinder campaign and the idea of "Space Western" was tossed around. Needless to say, myself and many of my players would be heavily interested in a space western, but I this is relatively new territory for me.

These are some of my questions:


What makes a Space Western RPG different from other rpgs?
What kind of adventures would be suitable for a space western?
What guidelines should I give my players in regards to developing characters in a space western?
This campaign will be ran using Starfinder. For those who have had a chance to use Starfinder, what home-brew changes would you recommend?
Currently most of my information comes from Firefly. Do you have other recomendations I should consider?



If you have had experience in running a space western rpg, I appreciate any info you may be willing to share.

I did a Western on Mars a while ago, so I assume that qualifies. Here's what I did:


There are three major cities on the entire planet. That's it. Huge, vast expanses of Martian permafrost between them. Wagon trains, trails, and the like to connect them. The central city, Unity, had a space elevator.
Ability to live out rugged lives on the surface. I did this through cheap, adaptable, and repairable surface suits. A Martian outlaw's three best friends were his bike, his surface suit, and his gun.
Little to no real laws. Unity has a police force, and they were the main villain of the campaign. These were the only police on the planet.
Ranching based economy. Genetically engineered hulking insects called "chitin" were used in place of cattle. So you get things like 'chitin rustling' and 'chitin drives' and the like. Very western.
Gold rush. People were coming to Mars to find Martian fossils, but often descending into poverty when they got there and didn't strike it rich.
Advanced, but not too advanced technology. Guns were no more advanced than they are today. Habitats were still pressurized pods or (in the case of the fancy ones) dome-based enclosures. Medicine was mostly a matter of stiches without anesthesia, due to the fact that every kilogram costs a lot of money to get into orbit.
Themes of rugged individualism and carving a home for yourself on the forsworn frontier.


Turned out okay. We were doing Western/Outlaw story, so it crossed territory heavily with Pirate-themed games. Was a lot of fun.

Max_Killjoy
2018-02-01, 10:51 AM
While it definitely channelled a lot of westerns - I'm not sure that it qualifies since only a prequel episode actually took place in space.

Plus - it's very NOT a good example for a TTRPG. I don't think I could stand it if someone tried to be such an annoying pacifist character. (Get some tranq darts or SOMETHING!)

Trigun, a seemingly beloved anime that I could not stand... the constant tonal whiplash and one of the most unlikable and irritating "anti-protagonist" main characters ever to see the screen... ugh. $%(*$ ridiculous blithering bumbling manchild.

Florian
2018-02-01, 10:52 AM
Agree with most things. Frontier, frontier mentality and frontier law. Might makes right, lynch mobs and harsh justice. Free commerce and "snake oil" all have been named so far.

Let me add "cultural strangeness" and "clash of cultures" to the mix. People brought some of their cultural upbringing and values along and knew that were far-off empires and civilization, that clashed with the reality and freedom of living in an unsettled land. Contrast the fur-clad "trapper" with the more "urban" former englishman now living in Boston, or replacing the well-known "common law" with bounty hunters, as the structure to support law enforcement didn't exist in the beginning.

On the rules side, you actually donīt have to change anything, but....

... Starfinder still uses WBL and scaling items, something that still works for dungeon crawls and free shopping, but clashes a bit with "space western". Cowboy Beebop is a good example, as what they do, they do to "keep flying".

So maybe use smaller missions/quests structure and alternate a bit between, say, working for the "settlers" to keep your starship in good shape and fueled, working for the "church" to gain magic items, working for the "man" (or doing heists, robbing a bank, stopping a supply convoy) to get money and maybe working for the sheriff or "army/militia" to get gear upgrades, but only one of those at each time.

Max_Killjoy
2018-02-01, 10:54 AM
Firefly and Cowboy Bebop both have something of that "Work to keep flying, fly to keep working, always one step ahead of the repo man and the reaper." element, don't they?

Florian
2018-02-01, 11:21 AM
Firefly and Cowboy Bebop both have something of that "Work to keep flying, fly to keep working, always one step ahead of the repo man and the reaper." element, don't they?

Jepp. Works with Traveller and Stars Without Numbers, doesn't so much work with Starfinder, or the "Have Gun/Starship, will travel" sorta thing.

Pleh
2018-02-01, 12:26 PM
True "westerns" have two primary elements: The Cowboy and The Wild West. The Cowboy is a grizzled protagonist and usually is either the last true believer in Good and/or a jaded man of principles who has been forced to accept moral compromises in the face of a harsh and unforgiving universe.

The Wild West is a combination of malicious natural hazards, isolated social settlements invoking loneliness in the wandering Cowboy, little to no law or social oversight leading to roaming gangs that pillage small towns almost unchecked, severe penalties in local justice systems arising from the lack of support further east, religious fanaticism, deadly confrontations with foreign civilizations, and often a misplaced sense of optimism about the progress of human society (this is usually a reference to the concept of Manifest Destiny that drove early American settlers to expand their territory further and further westward).

Space Western usually means all these elements are employed under the setting of interplanetary colonization.

So far as Star Trek, maybe the Original Series had some similarities, but most of the other versions of the show wouldn't fit the paradigm quite as well. A big element of Westerns was about American Society coming into its own and developing its identity. Who are we and what are we going to become?

Star Wars in some aspects fits the genre better. If you cut out all the mystical Jedi stuff and the heady political nonsense, the Outer Rim and Hutt controlled regions of space fit pretty well. Han shooting Greedo under the table, smuggling illegal commodities past the Imperial patrols, operating just out at the fringes of Imperials Space where their control is spread too thin to be as effective.

SirGraystone
2018-02-01, 02:00 PM
Western were stories happening at the fringe of civilization, lots of wilderness, less law enforcement, while there was large cities in the east with "modern" technology that technology was harder to find in the small settlement to the west.

Space Western is similar, happening on less populated worlds, often far from the major planets, where the law was less likely to find you.

Aliquid
2018-02-01, 03:31 PM
As other mentioned, it is important to play up the isolation aspect

Back in the early 1800s there were two options to get from the eastern States to the west coast.

1) by boat, which would take a year
2) The Oregon Trail, which would take 4-6 months

And it isn't just the time... those travel routes were dangerous, grueling, and miserable. So only a certain type of personality would be willing to make the trek in the first place.


Supplies would be hard to come by, and surviving in the wild without the aid of technology would be mandatory. You might have a remote planet where travelling merchant ships only stop by a couple times a year, at most. If your power generator breaks down...

Briton
2018-02-02, 09:21 AM
Thank you everyone who has replied! This will help a lot!

Jama7301
2018-02-02, 01:21 PM
Not sure if this is a universal case, but it always seems like Westerns and Space Westerns are more smaller scale, and less "Save the world"-y than some other genres.

Not sure if that's the cause of the medium, or just what I've been exposed to, so your mileage may vary.

The Glyphstone
2018-02-02, 02:18 PM
That might be because the 'world' in a western is smaller scale. Sure, there is civilization back East, but it doesnt matter. Stopping those cattle rustlers or finding a way around that landslide to get diptheria medicine is saving your town, which is the whole world as far as you are concerned. If anything, a (space)/western can be more about saving the 'world' than usual at that smaller scale, since its easier for a character to have Failed to save the 'world' previously somewhere else.

Florian
2018-02-02, 04:04 PM
That might be because the 'world' in a western is smaller scale. Sure, there is civilization back East, but it doesnt matter. Stopping those cattle rustlers or finding a way around that landslide to get diptheria medicine is saving your town, which is the whole world as far as you are concerned. If anything, a (space)/western can be more about saving the 'world' than usual at that smaller scale, since its easier for a character to have Failed to save the 'world' previously somewhere else.

That reminds me...

Thereīs an incredible Traveller one-shot adventure, One Crowded Hour. Takes a regular 4h con slot, plays an in-game 1 hour segment. Basically, your ship suffered a missjump accident and all hell breaks loose. Stabilize the situation ... or die.

We all know it from Star Trek: "Space, the final frontier"
This module adds: "... you're out there and alone, itīs dangerous and no one will notice when you die".

There's a reason a common background motif in western are bleached bones, burned wagons and abandoned farms.

Aliquid
2018-02-02, 04:41 PM
There's a reason a common background motif in western are bleached bones, burned wagons and abandoned farms.Good point... Ghost towns could be upgraded to ghost planets!

The Glyphstone
2018-02-02, 06:23 PM
Good point... Ghost towns could be upgraded to ghost planets!

Haunted asteroid mines.

CharonsHelper
2018-02-02, 07:08 PM
Haunted asteroid mines.

Lol - I'm actually planning something along those lines as an adventure.

Basically an asteroid mine/station which was infected by the immortui (basically think biological borg / reaver hybrid - only sneakier). The PCs are sent to investigate when the station suddenly stops checking in, and the shipping freighter is due to pick up the next ore shipment the next day.

Aliquid
2018-02-02, 07:09 PM
Now I want to run a space western.

Jama7301
2018-02-02, 07:37 PM
Now I want to run a space western.

I've been holding onto a Space-Western game with mechs and personal ships for a few months now. Never really had an opportunity to flesh it out, nor have I settled on a system for it.

It's there, and it will forever taunt me, because I'm lazy.

CharonsHelper
2018-02-02, 08:11 PM
I've been holding onto a Space-Western game with mechs and personal ships for a few months now. Never really had an opportunity to flesh it out, nor have I settled on a system for it.

It's there, and it will forever taunt me, because I'm lazy.

*blatant plug* I actually HAVE a space western RPG with mechs & personal ships which I've been working on for a couple years - with a system specifically designed for that sort of setting. (see signature)

lightningcat
2018-02-03, 01:04 AM
While it is not a space western, Riddick's opening monolog in Pitch Black is very much in that genre.

Telok
2018-02-03, 03:02 AM
As others have said "space western" is a theme and a setting, not a set of rules. However having played Starfinder I can give you some of my thoughts on that.

1) Equipment: By the book Starfinder equipment is very very gamey. Loot sells for 10% value, purchasing things is level locked, the wealth-by-level chart is actually more important and less optional than in PF or 3e, and spaceships run off a level based build point system that is completely separate from character wealth. You need to either go all in with this or rip it all out and write your own rules.

Because of the level limits on items and the exponentially increasing costs there are some things that will never be bought (grenades) and some things that the characters will end up with rooms full of (first level healing potions). Plus since weapon damage doubles about every 5 or 6 levels you need to be prepared for combats to get a little weird when characters get near the breakpoints. In our game the characters are now level 5 and can just barely afford the next level of weapons. We've been using 1st level weapons and joking about 'flashlight lasers' and pea-shooters because while our health has more than doubled our damage output has barely budged. We're really looking forward to the next tier of weapons that do two dice of damage rather than one because of...

2) NPCs: There's this weird thing where combat monsters and fighty NPCs are built to a formula, not like characters. So the stuff the PCs fight is going to have this smooth increase in HP, attack bonus, and damage. Compared to the PCs who have tiered equipment that's level locked it gets jarring for the players. At level 4 we still had 1d8 guns, 1d6 grenades, and just under 20 AC because that's what we could afford and 'find'. We fought stuff with +12 to-hit, 2d6+8 damage, 22 AC, and 70-80 hit points. It gets even weirder if you switch between fighting formula NPCs and fighting NPCs that are built like characters (our DM is running a module), because compared to the formula monsters the character style NPCs are freaking mooks even if they're technically a higher CR.

3) Use the errata skill DCs: And take a few minutes to check skill DCs against the skill levels of your PCs. Pazio had a mild case of Truenamer syndrome when they set the skill DCs the first time around. Since they haven't reworked all the skill DCs you need to check what sort of success rate you want your players to have and change skill DCs to match that.

4) The spaceship: You can't buy or sell spaceships. The system assumes that party just sort of has one, and a point buy system where they get to sort of rebuild the ship from scratch every level. It's odd, it's gamey, and because of #3 above they actually get worse at flying their ship as they level up.

Spaceships also work on a completely different scale than people, and at the low end of that scale it gets strange. There are no rules for fighting another spaceship with anything but another spaceship. In fact there are no rules for interacting with a starship with anything but another starship. So get ready to do lots of home brewing if you want to do anything with spaceships except transportation and spaceship combat. You should definitely give some thought to how you want to handle the PCs trying to do strafing runs, board a hostile ship, and the fact that there are low end weapons that are (by the book) capable of light orbital bombardment.

Florian
2018-02-03, 04:46 AM
Jepp. In a way, itīs nearly identical with autoscaling as we know it from D&D 4E, just disguised a little bit better. Personally, I donīt see an issue with handwaving a lot of it, as I'm used to using the automatic bonus progression rules in PF anyway. I'm comfy with Han Solo sticking to the signature blaster or Jayne Cobb to his "Betsy". Western is a bit macho, so itīs the man that counts, not the gun (if you're not Django and drag a hidden gatling around...)

Pleh
2018-02-03, 01:23 PM
Good point... Ghost towns could be upgraded to ghost planets!

Been done. Serenity (firefly movie) had Miranda. Made just a little more eerie that the people never left, like in real ghost towns.


While it is not a space western, Riddick's opening monolog in Pitch Black is very much in that genre.

I dunno. Riddick might be a better fit than you think (at least the ones about surviving out on an uninhabitable planet, rather than the one about taking down empires).

Florian
2018-02-03, 02:36 PM
I dunno. Riddick might be a better fit than you think (at least the ones about surviving out on an uninhabitable planet, rather than the one about taking down empires).

Riddick I is a classic Heroīs Journey, but if you watch closely, Riddick is actually not the real protagonist. Riddick II is, again, a Heroīs Journey, this time with him as the protagonist and III is simply trash. Itīs like a dark mirror for Star Wars.

Important, tho, because the westerns genre actually avoids the Heroīs Journey like the plague that it more often than not can be.

Pleh
2018-02-03, 03:59 PM
Did you ever watch Riddick IV?

The Glyphstone
2018-02-03, 04:08 PM
Did you ever watch Riddick IV?

It doesn't appear to exist yet.

Steel Mirror
2018-02-03, 07:42 PM
I think another important thing to hit for a Space Western feel is to have sharp lines between "The Settled Lands" and "The Frontier".

Setted Lands tend to have:

Advanced future tech
Functional central governments
Dense populations
An Upper, Middle, and Lower Class, probably with considerable inherited privilege/poverty
Ethnically or at least culturally unified (might be a single culture in ascendancy over all others)
Collectivism mostly overwhelms individual freedom
But at least you are unlikely to get shot


The Frontier tends to have:

Much more basic tech, possibly even more primitive than current 21st century, and unevenly distributed
Nonexistent or corrupt/ineffective governments not much larger than a single settlement
Small clusters of population spread over vast badlands
The Upper Class with the guns and the money, and everyone else
Multiple conflicting cultures and values
Individualism is in clear ascendancy, for those who can claim it
But those who can't stand a good chance of getting shot


Just thinking off the top of my head, Cowboy Bebop, Firefly, The Expanse, Star Wars, and Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom stories are the big names I associate with the subgenre (as plenty of others have poinbted out already), and they all pretty much show that clear line between Settled and Frontier. Needless to say, the Frontier is where most of the fun for your players happens, with the Settled Lands serving as a point of comparison and occasional source of threats and plot hooks.

Pleh
2018-02-03, 07:51 PM
It doesn't appear to exist yet.

I guess you weren't counting the direct to dvd animated sequel to Pitch Black?

The Glyphstone
2018-02-03, 08:07 PM
I guess you weren't counting the direct to dvd animated sequel to Pitch Black?

Nope, I had no idea it existed. There's Pitch Black, Chronicles of Riddick, and Riddick for live-action starring Vin Diesel.

Looking it up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Riddick:_Dark_Fury

seems more like a 1.5 than a 4th installment.

Pleh
2018-02-03, 08:18 PM
Nope, I had no idea it existed. There's Pitch Black, Chronicles of Riddick, and Riddick for live-action starring Vin Diesel.

Looking it up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Riddick:_Dark_Fury

seems more like a 1.5 than a 4th installment.

I guess. It ties Pitch Black and Chronicles together so you understand better what the characters are talking about in the beginning of Chronicles. It has all the same actors, I believe, just voice acting. If you're into the series, I'd say it's worth watching once just to be familiar with it, but the animation style is VERY anime (with the weird perspective making the limbs look bendy while fighting), so that can be either a bonus or a huge turnoff depending on how you feel about that style.

BoringInfoGuy
2018-02-04, 01:48 AM
"Wagon Train to the stars."
That was the original pitch for Star Trek. However, the show almost was not picked up because the pilot was considered overly cerebral and failed to deliver the promised space western feel.

The show got retooled to have more action, but the series never became the promised space western.

Max_Killjoy
2018-02-04, 08:19 AM
That was the original pitch for Star Trek. However, the show almost was not picked up because the pilot was considered overly cerebral and failed to deliver the promised space western feel.

The show got retooled to have more action, but the series never became the promised space western.

Kirk and Bones still have something of that "western" feel about them, I think. And the show still featured going out into the unknown frontier. You could pick a select set of the episodes and use them as part of your "bibliography" of inspiration when creating or running a "space western" RPG.

Beleriphon
2018-02-04, 03:51 PM
Spaceships also work on a completely different scale than people, and at the low end of that scale it gets strange. There are no rules for fighting another spaceship with anything but another spaceship. In fact there are no rules for interacting with a starship with anything but another starship. So get ready to do lots of home brewing if you want to do anything with spaceships except transportation and spaceship combat. You should definitely give some thought to how you want to handle the PCs trying to do strafing runs, board a hostile ship, and the fact that there are low end weapons that are (by the book) capable of light orbital bombardment.

In fairness, that's kind of how spaceships should work. I mean personal arms shouldn't really be able to blow up the space equivalent of the USS Iowa no matter how many bullets you use. Even a smallish ship with space ship scale weapons should probably be capable of planetary bombardment. If you think about this a strafing run something smallish designed to do it, say an 1-10 Warthog, I going to wreck the day of anything man sized targets that in the way, if we move up to something like a B-52 bomber or Tu-95 that's still smallish compared to a battleship but will ruin any man sized targets that get in the way of their payload. And none of them are particularly vulnerable to small arms.

Star Wars: Saga Edition did something similar, ships over a certain size were basically immune to character sized weapons. Even a lightsaber is only going to cut a small hole a Star Destroyer's hull, it is never going to demolish one from the outside, and a Star Destoryer's turbolasers do so much damage that a character getting hit by one is generally going to be killed instantly.

Pleh
2018-02-04, 03:56 PM
That said, Saga DID have rules for boarding a hostile vessel. Basically, IIRC, ships with a tractor beam could attempt a starship scale grapple check and "pinning" could allow one ship to forcably dock with another to allow an invasion of the enemy ship.

Beleriphon
2018-02-04, 05:32 PM
That said, Saga DID have rules for boarding a hostile vessel. Basically, IIRC, ships with a tractor beam could attempt a starship scale grapple check and "pinning" could allow one ship to forcably dock with another to allow an invasion of the enemy ship.

Very true, but that was still a Ship to Ship thing, rather than a Ship Scale to Character Scale action. None-the-less Starfinder not having boarding stuff seems a bit weird.

BoringInfoGuy
2018-02-04, 05:34 PM
Kirk and Bones still have something of that "western" feel about them, I think. And the show still featured going out into the unknown frontier. You could pick a select set of the episodes and use them as part of your "bibliography" of inspiration when creating or running a "space western" RPG.

Certainly. Bones had an old country doctor feel to him. And there were maybe a couple of western ish episodes. But overall, Star Trek TOS is a poor model to use in creating a space western themed game.

Even less so for the later series. Star Trek is a great series, just not a Space Western.

Telok
2018-02-04, 06:58 PM
Very true, but that was still a Ship to Ship thing, rather than a Ship Scale to Character Scale action. None-the-less Starfinder not having boarding stuff seems a bit weird.

The smallest ships are 20' to 60' long and 3 to... 20ish? tons. That's moving van and tractor trailer sizes, it's the size of a Star Wars X-wing or a Star Trek shuttle craft. Then the light coilgun for their weapon mount has a 50+ mile range increment with an area and damage equal to a CR 14 trap. A door on these little ships has hardness 25 and several hundred hit points, a section of the hull is harder and has thousands of hit points.

We're not talking capital ships attacking cities here. We're talking a CR 0.25 landing shuttle being capable of destroying small towns from orbit and bouncing level 15 anti-vehicle missiles off it's hull. And that's without the shields.

The Glyphstone
2018-02-04, 08:37 PM
If the landing shuttle can destroy small towns and deflect missiles, with hundreds of hit points for one door...wouldn't that, by definition, mean it is higher than CR 0.25?

Telok
2018-02-04, 10:26 PM
If the landing shuttle can destroy small towns and deflect missiles, with hundreds of hit points for one door...wouldn't that, by definition, mean it is higher than CR 0.25?

Well that gets back to the... gap... between ship and non-ship combat.

A CR 1/4th ship has 25 'build points', a party of 1st level characters has a CR 1 ship of 55 build points. Those 25 points can get a shuttle (6), coilgun (6), basic computer (0), budget sensors (2), 10pt shields (2), 50pt power core (4), and speed 10 thrusters (5). If you drop cut 8 points out of the shields (none), sensors (-2 to rolls), and thrusters (speed 6) you can upgrade the power core and install a drift engine (warp drive). Two or three of those shuttles are a decently rough fight for a 1st level party's ship.

Now I had the numbers of the airlock door wrong. It's hardness 35 and 160 hit points. A rank 5 fragmentation grenade is a level 14 item, costs $18,750 per grenade, and does 10d6 damage Reflex 1/2 (DC 17 + dex mod - attack roll penalties). You can also buy a level 10 missile launcher for $18,200 if you're at least 8th level. Then get the level 10 missiles at $5,700 each that do 6d8 damage or if you're level 11 you can buy the level 13 missiles that do 13d8 for $14,600 each. Even assuming that inanimate objects either get no reflex save or auto-fail it will take about 65 missiles to breach a spaceship airlock.

The Glyphstone
2018-02-04, 11:40 PM
Seems like ships shouldn't be measured on the CR system at all, rather using Ship Rating or something.

Telok
2018-02-05, 01:54 AM
As ship vs. ship CR it works. Like people vs. people CR works. It's just that ship stuff has no good way to interat with peope stuff.

I've just now realized something else, all the ship stuff is purely skill based to the exclusion of literally everything else. I don't think there are any class abilities, features, or spells that get to affect it. If that's sobthen anyone without computer/engineering/piloting as a maxxed class skill is either a gunner (if full BAB) or a cheerleader.

Florian
2018-02-05, 03:01 AM
I've just now realized something else, all the ship stuff is purely skill based to the exclusion of literally everything else. I don't think there are any class abilities, features, or spells that get to affect it. If that's sobthen anyone without computer/engineering/piloting as a maxxed class skill is either a gunner (if full BAB) or a cheerleader.

Also true for vehicle combat and chases, but very consistent with how Paizo designs sub-systems for some years now (from running a kingdom or organization, fleet battles, planning a heist and so on).

What it means is the same as it did in PF: Ask you gm what sub-systems are going to be in use and build accordingly, donīt make the typical CharOp error that only personal power is in focus, especially with sub-systems that you have little influence in, some things like Skill Focus or Skill Synergy suddenly shine.

I'm taking a bet that we're going so see some kind of "Exploration" sub-system sooner or later and that will probably work in a similar fashion.

Beleriphon
2018-02-05, 11:54 AM
The smallest ships are 20' to 60' long and 3 to... 20ish? tons. That's moving van and tractor trailer sizes, it's the size of a Star Wars X-wing or a Star Trek shuttle craft. Then the light coilgun for their weapon mount has a 50+ mile range increment with an area and damage equal to a CR 14 trap. A door on these little ships has hardness 25 and several hundred hit points, a section of the hull is harder and has thousands of hit points.

We're not talking capital ships attacking cities here. We're talking a CR 0.25 landing shuttle being capable of destroying small towns from orbit and bouncing level 15 anti-vehicle missiles off it's hull. And that's without the shields.

That just means that the character scale conflict and ship scale conflicts aren't mean to interact, or more specifically that character scale weapons aren't meant to threaten ships.

DavidSh
2018-02-05, 05:05 PM
Briton should read some of C. L. Moore's "Northwest Smith" stories. These were written back in the 1930s, and appeared in Weird Tales. "Shambleau" is the most famous of the lot.

Briton
2018-02-05, 06:30 PM
Briton should read some of C. L. Moore's "Northwest Smith" stories. These were written back in the 1930s, and appeared in Weird Tales. "Shambleau" is the most famous of the lot.


I will keep this in mind!