Grapple build: shield master or tavern brawler?

[Quoz]

Just hit 3rd level for a grappler build (currently fighter 2/rouge 1). I'm planning to go straight form here to fighter 5 for extra attack. I'm fairly committed to battlemaster at fighter 3, but not sure what to take for my ASI.

Current playstyle is the party primary tank. High AC, High HP and short rest self heals mean I go out of my way to draw agro - usually by finding the biggest threat on the other side and grabbing it by the throat, then either knocking it prone and sitting on it or chucking it out a window of a tall building. Our GM has been quite accommodating so far in having enemies focus on me. This is especially important since we are using slow natural healing (recover 1/2 hit dice on long rest but no actual healing) so our cleric can't keep up if anyone else is taking damage through the day. (Hopefully this will improve now that we have 2nd level spells)

Two options are appealing to me - Tavern Brawler or Shield Master. I really could use the bonus action maneuver, but I'm not sure which to go with. Tavern Brawler requires an attack to trigger the free grapple, but let's me still be armed - without it I'm doing basic unarmed strikes for almost no damage. Shield Master is less restrictive, I get the bonus shove so long as I have a shield. But I'll be left doing 4 damage per headbutt, and be limited to locking down only one target.

At the moment I'm leaning to Shield Master. My DPR will be worse than a wizard in melee, but I will be much better at my job of stuffing the biggest threat and enabling the party. Does anyone who has played the build have an insight into how to make it better? Is there a piece of the puzzle I am lacking to make this all come together?

[nickl_2000]

Do you have other party members that will be hurt by someone being prone?

Any ranged attack (spell or weapon) will be at a disadvantage when someone is prone.

[MrStabby]

I like shield master. You can shove without a grapple, useful for pushing people out a window or knocking them prone. You can cover the retreat of others by shoving enemies out of reach. Don't forget shield master has other benefits as well in terms of saves.

I feel shield master is better but also opens up more diverse things you can do. Part of the choice may depend on your thoughts for bonus action etc..

[Desteplo]

Tavern brawler is my choice
-shield takes up a hand
- Otherwise while unarmed you can grapple 2 at once

[Joe the Rat]

Everything you want in terms of grappling can be done now as an action (or attack substitute). It's a question of what will give you the most utility - what will get used at every opportunity.

Tavern brawler requires an unarmed or improvised weapon attack for the lead-in... but gives you a 1d4 strength attack. When you get extra attack, you can hit with a proper weapon, punch/chair on the second, and initiate your grapple. The improvised weapons / improved unarmed strike add as much as the Bonus Action grapple.

Shield master gives you more knockabout options - a "free" knock back or knock down every round... in addition to the defensive boosts. See how your DM feels about shield-arm grappling.

You're also going Battle Master. That means that you can take options for a push, trip, or weapon pin rider to be added to any attack. This is a more limited resource, so keep this for occasional moves, not every-attack moves.


My take:
If a shield is your thing, take Shield Master. You are all about beating people up. You can knock down Bonus Action, and use your attack action to initiate a grapple, keeping them on the ground (and still fightng, but at disadvantage). If you have the room, add Tavern Brawler for more options.

If you are happy single-blading it, Tavern Brawler. This gives you the free hand for the unarmed strike or lantern or whatever it is you are using in that hand to hit people and initiate bonus action grapples. Remember, extra attack means two attacks, it says nothing about what limb the two attacks come from. Sword+punch is just fine. With Battle Master, you can stack a trip on your unarmed strike, then bonus action grapple. You'll want to use a rapier, or switch to a finesse weapon when you grapple to capitalize on any Advantage situations.

[GlenSmash!]

Tavern brawler requires an unarmed or improvised weapon attack for the lead-in...

Not just an attack, it requires a successful attack. That's the biggest drawback of Tavern Brawler for me. Still it's one of my favorite Feats. I particularly like it on a Barbarian since Reckless Attack increases my chance to land that hit to trigger the bonus action grapple.

If you have a generous DM, find an Improvised weapon that is similar enough to a real weapon that the DM allows that weapons damage die. I can think of a lot of things that would be similar to a Great Club, maybe even some that would be close to a Warhammer, or Maul. It'll do more than 1d4 damage and still trigger the grapple.

[the secret fire]

Shield Master is pretty much unambiguously the more powerful feat if you effectively take advantage of all that it has to offer, but doing so is tricky. The shoving aspect of the feat emphasizes Str and Athletics, while the other aspects of the feat help out with Dex saves. Whether or not you can make effective use of Shield Master kinda depends on how your character is set up. Did you start as a Rogue (giving you Dex save proficiency) and take expertise in Athletics? Then Shield Master is perfect for you. If not, it might not actually help you all that much.

[Quoz]

Started as fighter, went rogue solely for expertise. I have a 14 Dex so the defensive bonuses won't go to waste. May go back for cunning action and to get arcane trickster after getting extra attack. I don't know how long the game will go, so I'm not trying to plan too far ahead.

I think I'm going shield master first, and may swing back to tavern brawler after getting to 20 strength. I'll see if I can work out a magic item fix or some sort of bladed buckler for my damage but if not, that's ok. This is a control build so damage is a secondary concern. I can always pull out a rapier and be a slightly unoptimized sword and board fighter when we're up against a hoard. If I'm locking down one target and chasing/proning another every fight then my team gets the job done.

[greenstone]

A contrary opinion...

Strength +2.

It gives you a better chance to grapple targets, better chance to hit, more damage, more carrying capacity for when you drag your grappled target off a cliff or into a spell's area of effect.

[Talionis]

Monk is generally surprisingly a poor grappled but the open fist level three ability is pretty neat once you have expertise

[MrStabby]

Monk is generally surprisingly a poor grappled but the open fist level three ability is pretty neat once you have expertise

I don't think expertise helps that, I think it is just a save.

[Talionis]

I don't think expertise helps that, I think it is just a save.

Isn't the save versus your Atheletics check?

[Joe the Rat]

It's versus your Wisdom-based martial arts DC.

[Veldrenor]

Shield Master is better at Fighter 4 since it lets you grapple + prone in the same turn, but once you get Extra Attack at Fighter 5 I prefer Tavern Brawler. Don't get me wrong, the Shield Master's half-evasion is really nice, but I prefer the extra damage that Tavern Brawler deals on top of grapple + prone.

[Citan]

Just hit 3rd level for a grappler build (currently fighter 2/rouge 1). I'm planning to go straight form here to fighter 5 for extra attack. I'm fairly committed to battlemaster at fighter 3, but not sure what to take for my ASI.

Current playstyle is the party primary tank. High AC, High HP and short rest self heals mean I go out of my way to draw agro - usually by finding the biggest threat on the other side and grabbing it by the throat, then either knocking it prone and sitting on it or chucking it out a window of a tall building. Our GM has been quite accommodating so far in having enemies focus on me. This is especially important since we are using slow natural healing (recover 1/2 hit dice on long rest but no actual healing) so our cleric can't keep up if anyone else is taking damage through the day. (Hopefully this will improve now that we have 2nd level spells)

Two options are appealing to me - Tavern Brawler or Shield Master. I really could use the bonus action maneuver, but I'm not sure which to go with. Tavern Brawler requires an attack to trigger the free grapple, but let's me still be armed - without it I'm doing basic unarmed strikes for almost no damage. Shield Master is less restrictive, I get the bonus shove so long as I have a shield. But I'll be left doing 4 damage per headbutt, and be limited to locking down only one target.

At the moment I'm leaning to Shield Master. My DPR will be worse than a wizard in melee, but I will be much better at my job of stuffing the biggest threat and enabling the party. Does anyone who has played the build have an insight into how to make it better? Is there a piece of the puzzle I am lacking to make this all come together?
Between the two my vote will go to Shield Master without hesitation, but simply because you described yourself as the tank that draws as many attacks as possible, and in that regard +2 AC is a significant boost (especially with Slow Healing).

Now what I don't understand is why you don't use Grapple as a bonus action already? Just go dual-wielding: as long as you wield weapons in both hands when you take Attack action, you trigger the bonus action one: in other words, thrown weapon attacks work.
So you can already cover those use-cases:
Attack+Shove or Attack+Grapple.
Tavern Brawler brings only an "easyness" factor in that you can do the Attack + Grapple without dual-wielding, but triggers only if you hit with your attack. Seems a bit lackluster to me at your level. Once you get Precision Attack it may work often enough though.
Shield Master will bring the Shove+Attack or Shove+Grapple one. That seems just factually better to me, because more options.
+ Better defense against AOE. :)

Note though that once you get Extra Attack, the most versatile style will be dual-wielding again. If you are fine with just Shoving or ending your turn without weapon because you are grappling, because you intend to grab Tavern Brawler and use headbutts later, then it's all good. ;)

BUT, let me just suggest an alternative: if you often use tactical move of your enemies, then Mobile may be worth, as well as going Eldricht Knight instead of Battlemaster. On the minus side, you lose those great manoeuvers. On the plus side, you gain a bunch of spells to...
- Help you survive the aggro especially if you grapple the BBEG (Shield, later Mirror Image).
- Help you get to them quicker and move them further (Longstrider / Expeditious Retreat).
- Help you be great at grappling (Enlarge).
Of course you will get those spells much later, but you still get them early enough to use them well while still getting full Fighter progression, which is also very important to you. ;) Only big drawback is that it makes Warcaster kinda mandatory. ^^

Otherwise, you could just dip into any caster that gives you Enlarge depending on your stats once you got up to Fighter 6. But it would make 3rd Attack veeeery far away so probably not a good idea if you think you can reach char level 12. ;)

But don't mind me too much: Batltemaster is a very sound choice too, and potentially much better if your party usually manage to get short rests when needed. ^^

[Quoz]

I am fairly certain that grapple and shove do not meet the requirements for two weapon fighting. Neither is a weapon attack.

With shield master, I can get full use of action and bonus action reliably. Open with bonus action prone, then grab with normal attack. Once I get extra attack, I can either redo either of those if an opponent got lucky enough to succeed (an increasingly unlikely event as the vast majority of monsters don't gain proficiency) or drag to another opponent and knock them prone as well.

Battlemaster gives disarming and demoralizing, both great openers against a harder target. Frightened creatures have disadvantage on attacks and checks, so are easy targets for maneuvers. Disarming is obviously great as well, since I can drag away from a dropped weapon. My third will be either precise or tripping, I am leaning toward precise.

While I have decided to go battle master over eldritch knight, I may still get to spells if I go Arcane Trickster. The main goal for this is actually to get find familiar as a way to get no action advantage on athletics checks, though of course the defensive spells will be very welcome. That's a long way off at the moment, and can be easily replaced if I can pick up support from my teammates or suitable magic items such as ring of spell storing.

The other feats like mobile are definitely on the radar, but not first tier picks at this point. My group plays online without a map grid so an extra few feet is rarely as useful for us as at other tables. I will probably get rogue 2 eventually for cunning action dash.

This is primarily a support character, and I work with a group where we do get a certain amount of tactical support an preparation. If a fight looks like my tactics will make a significant difference, I can expect support buffs from our cleric or wizard. If we're up against a hoard of many lower level opponents, grabbing is a waste so I'll be spending most of my time stabbing things and placing myself to give cover to our spellcasters. I don't have to be entirely self sufficient to be effective.

[Citan]

I am fairly certain that grapple and shove do not meet the requirements for two weapon fighting. Neither is a weapon attack.

You're right, or rather, "half-right". I forgot that by RAW you could only replace attacks from Attack action with shove/grapple.

So everything I said starts working at level 5 when you get Extra Attack, not before. ;)
(just so it's clear for you: start dual-wielding: take Attack action, first attack throw weapon, now bonus action attack is enabled so you can use second attack to grapple/shove with the hand that is now free then still get another attack with off-hand).


This is primarily a support character, and I work with a group where we do get a certain amount of tactical support an preparation. If a fight looks like my tactics will make a significant difference, I can expect support buffs from our cleric or wizard. If we're up against a hoard of many lower level opponents, grabbing is a waste so I'll be spending most of my time stabbing things and placing myself to give cover to our spellcasters. I don't have to be entirely self sufficient to be effective.
I'm very glad for you, this kind of (good) group that actually tries and think strategically is fairly rare to find... :smallbiggrin: