Would you pay to play D&D?

[PeteNutButter]

Our AL group at our local store has been growing a lot and we are at capacity, now needing a fourth DM. One of the organizers suggested charging players to play as a method of reducing players and incentivizing DMs. (Basic economics, demand too high: raise the price.)

The entry fees would be no more than 5 bucks a player and the full amount would go to the DM as store credit. That way the store gets a bit of business while the DM who had to pay for the adventure (usually about $4 or more for hardcover) gets to walk away with some dice or minis or some such. We’d kind of have to do it that way because tax laws.

What do you guys think? Get out your torches and pitchforks? Is this a common practice in any of your areas?

As it stands now we can’t get enough DMs and they eat the cost of the adventure as well as having to work for prep time.

[Zanthy1]

I am personally not a fan of this. Part of DnD is that once you have everything it is supposed to be free. Now a store rewarding people to be a DM is fine if thats what they want, but I do not think AL was meant to be run as a means of income. Of course this is mostly opinion, and if I was going to get paid to DM it would certainly incentivize me, but as a player I would not want it.

[Consensus]

Hasn't this exact thread been posted before?

[Kane0]

I'm part of a weekly game that charges $10 per session, but that's because the room used for the game must be hired. I don't think any of that goes to the DM, though it's lovely incentive for people at the table to pay attention and get their money's worth instead of screwing around. And based on my last couple years of home games i'm happy to pay for that, though personally $5 sounds more reasonable.

[PeteNutButter]

I am personally not a fan of this. Part of DnD is that once you have everything it is supposed to be free. Now a store rewarding people to be a DM is fine if thats what they want, but I do not think AL was meant to be run as a means of income. Of course this is mostly opinion, and if I was going to get paid to DM it would certainly incentivize me, but as a player I would not want it.

Appreciate the input, but it isn’t really money the DM walks away with but more of a prize for his or her hard work. I’d even entertain the idea of using the bulk of mine to get a box of minis given to a random player. It’s more about fixing the player to DM ratio than the actual money.


I'm part of a weekly game that charges $10 per session, but that's because the room used for the game must be hired. I don't think any of that goes to the DM, though it's lovely incentive for people at the table to pay attention and get their money's worth instead of screwing around. And based on my last couple years of home games i'm happy to pay for that, though personally $5 sounds more reasonable.

See that’s what I was thinking. It’s a way to thin the player horde and keep the ones that are serious about the hobby. I was actually thinking four dollars would be best. That way it’s a dollar an hour and could be easily changed to $2 if someone only wanted to run a 2 hot adventure.

[Dyndrilliac]

The store is already benefiting from all the extra traffic, as most of those folks are already likely to buy stuff while they are there. Most stores in my experience have vending machines at minimum, or actual snacks and stuff you can buy at the counter. I'm sure they sell dice and books to newbies as well. So charging to come in the door and sit down at a table to play a game seems like a poor choice that isn't likely to endear the store to their customers. If they don't have room for everyone, then they either need to implement some kind of RSVP system that favors people who show up reliably or move to a larger space. My local FLGS actually bought a larger store when they began running out of space, and then moved into the larger space. Also, the DM shouldn't get the money as store credit. That seems pretty shady. Most stores already have merchandise rewards for frequent high quality DMs (I know mine does), and AL already has a mechanism for rewarding DMs with bonuses that they can apply to a character they make for playing when they get tired of being a DM. I've never seen a store charging people to come in and play in the store. Most stores are happy just to have the extra foot traffic. This decision would make me less likely to support the store in the future and it would make me MUCH less likely to go their to play games, AL or not.

[Kane0]

A dollar an hour to play get yourself a spot at the store sounds perfectly reasonable, especially if you or the DM get some minis or dice out out if every now and again. Or even the occasional discount from the drinks fridge or something. It really depends on the store in question however.

[Darth_Versity]

Our local store charges £2 per person, regardless of the activity. They don't earn from that, but it helps keep the lights on and avoids people just 'hanging out' and taking up space (which has happened before)

[PeteNutButter]

The store is already benefiting from all the extra traffic, as most of those folks are already likely to buy stuff while they are there. Most stores in my experience have vending machines at minimum, or actual snacks and stuff you can buy at the counter. I'm sure they sell dice and books to newbies as well. So charging to come in the door and sit down at a table to play a game seems like a poor choice that isn't likely to endear the store to their customers. If they don't have room for everyone, then they either need to implement some kind of RSVP system that favors people who show up reliably or move to a larger space. My local FLGS actually bought a larger store when they began running out of space, and then moved into the larger space. Also, the DM shouldn't get the money as store credit. That seems pretty shady. Most stores already have merchandise rewards for frequent high quality DMs (I know mine does), and AL already has a mechanism for rewarding DMs with bonuses that they can apply to a character they make for playing when they get tired of being a DM. I've never seen a store charging people to come in and play in the store. Most stores are happy just to have the extra foot traffic. This decision would make me less likely to support the store in the future and it would make me MUCH less likely to go their to play games, AL or not.

It's not really charging to get in the door. Anyone can sit down and play. If someone wants to play organized AL play and have a DM provided for them, is it unreasonable for them to pay four bucks? That's not rhetorical. It's a genuine question.

The store may well be looking at a larger location, but in the meantime that doesn't solve our current dilemma. We also have to compete for space with MTG tournaments and having some kind of monetization for D&D would encourage the store to not always give us the boot in favor of MTG space. Who knows it might be the step that finally encourages the store to get a larger location instead of booting us every MTG prerelease weekend.

My point is, I want to do is put the store in a losing position, asking for handouts, as D&D players probably spend an average of $2 in snacks if they don't bring their own. Accounting for cost, that can't be more than $30 dollars profit. That's a pittance in the business world. As for product sales, sadly these days, so much is bought online through Amazon and the likes that most players are shocked when they see my fancy "physical-store-only" copies of books. Many players don't even own books in favor of stolen pdfs.

Really, I'm spending the most time on comments like this as the last thing we'd ever want to do is alienate the store's customers over just a few dollars. Then they'd definitely give us the boot.


A dollar an hour to play get yourself a spot at the store sounds perfectly reasonable, especially if you or the DM get some minis or dice out out if every now and again. Or even the occasional discount from the drinks fridge or something. It really depends on the store in question however.


Our local store charges £2 per person, regardless of the activity. They don't earn from that, but it helps keep the lights on and avoids people just 'hanging out' and taking up space (which has happened before)

Some people seem VERY opposed to this while others find it fine. Interesting...

[Ronnocius]

In my opinion, unless there is a scenario where you have to pay to play (such as renting a room), you should not charge players to play. There are surely better ways to incentivize DMs.

[Davrix]

This doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Things I like

Means the people who pay want to be there and not just going for a lark or to troll and waste other peoples time. (I can hope)
Good way to get new Dm's and keep them

Things I'd be worried about

I don't mind the store credit god knows i would spend loads anyway being a Dm at one. But ALL the money better be going to the Dm's the store earns money off other things. If this is purely something to motivate people into being a DM and or keeping things controlled that's fine. If its about the story trying to generate other revenue I dislike it greatly. The store will be getting the cash and be giving out credit. Well store prices are already marked up so they will be double dipping as is. In essence by doing a store credit they are already getting their cutt. So if they try to say we will take a dollar out of every five you better cry FOUL and cry FOUL hard.

[Kane0]

There's two very different forces at play, and neither is really in the wrong.

There's the store, where D&D is just not terribly lucrative compared to MtG, Warhammer, etc. Once people get their D&D book(s), dice and maybe minis they're all set and good to go, you don't get much if any more revenue out of them. And that's not even counting competition like online purchasing. In business terms D&D is just not where the money is so there is little incentive to accommodate for it, especially since they take up the same time and space to play. They can make up some of the difference by charging for attendance (which is taking up time and space in their store that could otherwise be used for other ways of generating profit) or incentives for additional in-store purchases, like how MtG players are a constant stream of card sales.

And there's the player, who just spent their money on a complete product and don't want to also spend to be able to play it. It's much the same as paying full price for a videogame and then having to pay for a subscription or microtransactions on top of that, and players are pretty damn vocal about how they feel about that particular topic.

Edit: As a player I would obviously much prefer not to pay, but having seen all my local game stores except for the Games Workshop go out of business I understand their need to make money to stay in business and continue to provide that convenient location for players to meet and play.

[ZorroGames]

In a word, no. I do not pay to play. Never ever.

Renting a “private room” and splitting the cost, fine.

[Dyndrilliac]

If someone wants to play organized AL play and have a DM provided for them, is it unreasonable for them to pay four bucks? That's not rhetorical. It's a genuine question.

Honestly? In my opinion, yeah, it is a bit unreasonable. I'm already spending money in the store. So are most (if not all) of the other players/DMs. I've volunteered to DM both AL and non-AL games at my local store, and I've played both AL and non-AL games at my local store. As I said, most stores already have mechanisms for attracting DMs (be it snacks, or small pieces of merchandise, or whatever) and AL already has a mechanism for rewarding DMs.


The store may well be looking at a larger location, but in the meantime that doesn't solve our current dilemma. We also have to compete for space with MTG tournaments and having some kind of monetization for D&D would encourage the store to not always give us the boot in favor of MTG space. Who knows it might be the step that finally encourages the store to get a larger location instead of booting us every MTG prerelease weekend.

Again, my advice would be to implement an RSVP system. My store does this using Facebook. They have their AL game nights posted as an event, and people who reserve their seat and indicate they are definitely going are guaranteed to be able to play. People who just decide last minute to show up may not get a seat. People who reserve a seat but don't show up have to wait an extra week before they can reserve a seat again.


My point is, I want to do is put the store in a losing position, asking for handouts, as D&D players probably spend an average of $2 in snacks if they don't bring their own. Accounting for cost, that can't be more than $30 dollars profit. That's a pittance in the business world. As for product sales, sadly these days, so much is bought online through Amazon and the likes that most players are shocked when they see my fancy "physical-store-only" copies of books. Many players don't even own books in favor of stolen pdfs.

Really, I'm spending the most time on comments like this as the last thing we'd ever want to do is alienate the store's customers over just a few dollars. Then they'd definitely give us the boot.

So an average of $2 extra dollars per customer isn't enough, but $4 or $5 is? That seems contradictory, arbitrary, and hypocritical. All I can tell you is that what you're describing isn't what I see going on at my local store. My local FLGS is a beloved safe haven for tabletop gamers. The owner plays alongside the customers, and he knows most everyone who comes in by name. We're all Facebook friends, we hang out outside the store, etc. It's a very casual, respectful, friendly atmosphere and everyone is serious about supporting the store. Virtually everyone who plays there regularly bought AT LEAST their physical PHB from the store, if not their dice and their supplements. They also have sales and promotions on miniatures and stuff. They have painting stations. It's great, and people love the store enough to make sure they support it so it stays open. They make enough money from their loyal customers that they were able to expand to a larger space and better accommodate the influx of new players for 5e and other systems (FFG Star Wars and MtG are also super popular, as is Warhammer).

[ZorroGames]

As an old war gamer (trifecta - historical, fantasy and SF) since the 1970s, toy soldiers before that, I still buy specific miniatures for games at multiple FLGS’s.

And I gave away almost a thousand miniatures and board games in 2017, more to go in 2018 as we transition from a five bedroom house to an apartment, so it is not a matter of need when I spend money at a FLGS.

I paid under the old management to reserve a spot via Warhorn.net but that system has not been re-implemented by new management. Highly ambivalent about that approach. Felt dumped on when the shop closed suddenly (no notice) due to... erm, issues the old management had with the state... the day before AL game.

[strangebloke]

Space is limited, DMs are scarce? Absolutely, go for it.

I mean, come on. DND is a four-hour session. Depending on where you live, 5 bucks is dirt cheap and being a DM in AL is pretty thankless in my experience.

If I get to pay five bucks and have half the people at the table (more DMs) that's a win in my book.

[baticeer]

Our LGS is similar– $2 per person per session for adventurers league, which goes to the DM’s store credit. Worked just fine when I played there, although I don’t do so anymore. I spent my store credit on a mini, usually. When I think about how much money one pays to, for example, play machines at an arcade or see a movie, I have no objection to putting down a tiny amount of cash for a fun session of D&D.

[OldTrees1]

Our local game store does something smarter:

They have the AL slot happen around dinner time and have food (pizza, popcorn, and soda) available for purchase. To correct the PC>>DM imbalance they give DMs 1 free soda & slice of pizza.

If they had decided to charge players, I probably would not be DMing there.

[danpit2991]

ahhhh what we have here is just a matter of flavor if you say "pay to play" it gets mucho negativity but what if you call it a 'chair rental fee' then you are merely renting the space in order to play and store credit for DM's is a great idea

but seriously how is putting up 5 bucks and the DM getting store credit any different than several of my house groups rule of the DM doesnt pay for snacks, drinks or pizza?

[JakOfAllTirades]

The new game store/bar/eatery in downtown Kansas City has a $5 cover charge and it's worth every penny. The venue is absolutely beautiful, it's clean and well-lit, the furniture is new and comfortable, the game library is huge, and they have a full bar and menu. Also, the new D&D game I joined last week was full of normal, socially well-adjusted people. I'm pretty sure this isn't a coincidence, so I have no problem dropping an Abe Lincoln every two weeks to keep playing. I have found my gaming paradise.

[baticeer]

A similar question.

Let’s say your home group wants to play Tomb of Annihilation (or whatever). The book costs $50. There are five people in the group plus the DM. The DM asks you to each give her $10 to offset the cost of the adventure. How do you feel about this situation? To me it seems reasonable and I’d be happy to do it as a player but probably not willing to ask for it as a DM cuz I’m just too shy to ask people to give me money lol

[ZorroGames]

A similar question.

Let’s say your home group wants to play Tomb of Annihilation (or whatever). The book costs $50. There are five people in the group plus the DM. The DM asks you to each give her $10 to offset the cost of the adventure. How do you feel about this situation? To me it seems reasonable and I’d be happy to do it as a player but probably not willing to ask for it as a DM cuz I’m just too shy to ask people to give me money lol

Being the completionist addict that I am - I would loan him/her mine. If the DM likes it let him/her buy a copy for future use. Return mine when the game is over.

[Daithi]

No

........

[ZorroGames]

The new game store/bar/eatery in downtown Kansas City has a $5 cover charge and it's worth every penny. The venue is absolutely beautiful, it's clean and well-lit, the furniture is new and comfortable, the game library is huge, and they have a full bar and menu. Also, the new D&D game I joined last week was full of normal, socially well-adjusted people. I'm pretty sure this isn't a coincidence, so I have no problem dropping an Abe Lincoln every two weeks to keep playing. I have found my gaming paradise.

I play very week in either a private work site based AL game or, when necessary, at the local FLGS (getting tired of the 8-9 player parties, honestly,) in AL. I have multiple first and second tier characters so after DM for years with OD&D and AD&D/1st in Sacramento and Seattle I am enjoying “just playing” 5e.

I see little benefit for me at this time paying to play but I do see benefit in locking into a good group because my first 5e game with a “crazy man” player was almost my last. If that sounds close minded think of how many socially ungifted egocentric people you have met in tabletop gaming. I still am amazed by how many such exist. SPED kids/adults are not included in that description, just “egos with a body attached.”

[Brookshw]

We used to kick the guy who ran the open game at the local shop $3/session. Didn't bother us. 25 years later and $5/session seems fine.

[strangebloke]

I play very week in either a private work site based AL game or, when necessary, at the local FLGS (getting tired of the 8-9 player parties, honestly,) in AL. I have multiple first and second tier characters so after DM for years with OD&D and AD&D/1st in Sacramento and Seattle I am enjoying “just playing” 5e.

I see little benefit for me at this time paying to play but I do see benefit in locking into a good group because my first 5e game with a “crazy man” player was almost my last. If that sounds close minded think of how many socially ungifted egocentric people you have met in tabletop gaming. I still am amazed by how many such exist. SPED kids/adults are not included in that description, just “egos with a body attached.”

Having a good group is literally everything. Five bucks is less than half what I typically blow on pizza and drinks. Having a good DM and good players? Worth the premium. Not sure how this works in AL, though.

More to the point, DMing is a lot of work! A lot of people have interest in DND, but a lot of people don't have the system mastery or the time to actually run a game.

[Sigreid]

The issue I would have is paying to play with unknown players. If I pay money for a good GM that gives a good experience that might be ok until other paying players ruin it.

Thinking more the environment would matter too. Most of the game stores I've been in are a bit dirty and smelly to be honest. At least the ones that allow games there.

[Kane0]

A lot of places will do a '1st session free' or similar to mitigate that. Costs you nothing to try it out.

[Sigreid]

There is another issue. While I'm financially comfortable now, I do remember when every dollar mattered.

[strangebloke]

There is another issue. While I'm financially comfortable now, I do remember when every dollar mattered.

This is true. These days, five bucks is easy enough to come by. That hasn't always been the case. Money is mixed value.

[Armok]

I think it's a change from the norm, and any change that involves people's wallets is bound to be met with some resistance.

That said, as a regular DM of 2+ years, I am always exceptionally grateful when my players chip in for dinner, or help procure minis or mats for game night. Rather than implement a store-enforced system of players paying the DM, I think each table should have an optional "funds pool" that each player is encouraged but not required to chip into occasionally. This allows the DM to purchase game related products from the store more often, which gets the store more business, but does not force players to part with their money.

Of course, this is just off the top of my head and I'm sure there are some issues. Like, reliable bookkeeping would be necessary to ensure that the money ends up going back into the game in some way. And then there's the question of whether this should even involve the game store, or be managed by the players as a social contract sort of deal... which I'm sure is a whole other can of spiders.

[LeonBH]

You have a real world problem here, but you're surveying people on the internet for opinions. The thing is, it doesn't matter what we think, unless we are going to be your customers.

What you need to do is find out what the regulars at your store are comfortable with, and how would putting up a fee affect your non-loyal AL gamers.

For a start, answer these questions.

1. Do you have competition? Is there any other FLGS that runs AL or similar to it, which offers free services and the casual AL players can just go to instead?

2. Are your customers able to pay? Which ones? You may end up will all 30-something's instead of 20-something's, and no kids. This isn't a problem, but it might change who your regulars are, so it still has some effect.

3. Are your customers fine with paying for an AL game? Do they hate the idea of paid games?

Know your direct target market. We here in the internet cannot reliably give you the answers.

[DeadMech]

I mean do what you think you have to do. Would I pay to play in a store. Not terribly likely. Even if it is cheaper than my share of snacks and drinks when I'm playing at a friends house. But I'm not really the best judge of such things. I've been in a gaming store once. It didn't look like it sold coffee or drinks and snacks. In fact is was open three days a week for about 4 or 5 hours in the afternoon, had one table, and was going out of business at the time. Maybe that had all had something to do with the last point.

Back on subject this might want to be something you lean into slowly. Even a small price increase has the possibility of greatly changing the dynamics, especially when your starting point was free. That's just human nature.

Kane suggested first session free. It's not a terrible idea. You're still going to want new people coming in and participating. Maybe credit on play sessions for in store purchases.

[sflame56]

I go to two stores that do dnd differently for pricing and both are quite agreeable. At one they do 2$ dollars every time you go. So from that you get a table to play at and your dm gets in store credit for running the game and retaining customers. At the other the first week is free for new players then its 5$ per week or 15$ for the month but it is all in store credit. Meaning this is money you would most likely already spend on snacks and food or miniatures. You can also collect it and then use it all at once for a big purchase. Also dms get a 15% discount off everything and don't have to pay.

What you have to realize is your going to a business and taking up a table that they can have magic players or another group use and play at that do pay for events already. You can have 100 people go in and play dnd but if only 10 buy stuff a week or 2 then the business is going to suffer from not offering those tables to paying customers that will have all the players paying. By paying you are supporting your local game shop keep their doors open and make them want to get more people in the doors for dnd. In the end your just paying for the table space in the long run and giving the store a reason to give it too you rather then a bunch of mtg players for a tournament.

[dejarnjc]

$5 for a DnD session is nothing.

[PeteNutButter]

Of course we will be talking with the players before we made any changes. I started with the forum post to get a general idea for how people in the larger D&D community feel. If it were 90% hate, then I'd probably drop it and look for an alternate solution. Naturally, these forums aren't the most accurate sample space, as I'd expect most of us to be bit more vested in the hobby (since we aren't just content to play the game). Even so, it seems feasible.

I think the biggest obstacle is perception. People don't like paying for things, if they are used to them being free, even if the cost is very low. It's a bit like being charged for a glass of water.

IMO the DM has to pay $4 a week to get the adventure and spend the time to prep it, he should be entitled to a bit of reimbursement, and if that comes in the shape of things like minis and maps it just makes the game better for everyone. In a perfect world DMing would be a thing that was it's own reward, but that's not how it's turning out with us at/over capacity on players. I am admittedly part of the problem. I DM when I have to, but would personally much rather pay someone else to ensure I could play. (I do enjoy DMing, but only in home games where I have full creative control.)

We have been doing signups on facebook so people tend not to show up if they can't play, but that doesn't stop us from always having a full table and not being able to reliably play at the same table every week, since the spots fill very quickly. That can be a problem when doing hardcovers particularly. Player A plays in the hardcover weeks 1 and 2 but then misses a week or two so Player B fills his slot, then the next week they both want in... All this cluster is why we are thinking of leaning towards ways to fix the DM/player ratio instead of changing sign ups.

[LeonBH]

I think the biggest obstacle is perception. People don't like paying for things, if they are used to them being free, even if the cost is very low. It's a bit like being charged for a glass of water.

This isn't necessarily true. We've seen a real world example in iTunes and Spotify, when music streaming services used to be free, and Steve Jobs came along and said, "why don't we charge everyone 99 cents instead of giving it for free?"

It worked, and instantly, a multibillion dollar industry was born. It's all in the execution if it fails or succeeds.


IMO the DM has to pay $4 a week to get the adventure and spend the time to prep it, he should be entitled to a bit of reimbursement, and if that comes in the shape of things like minis and maps it just makes the game better for everyone.

This is a fair sentiment.


We have been doing signups on facebook so people tend not to show up if they can't play, but that doesn't stop us from always having a full table and not being able to reliably play at the same table every week, since the spots fill very quickly. That can be a problem when doing hardcovers particularly. Player A plays in the hardcover weeks 1 and 2 but then misses a week or two so Player B fills his slot, then the next week they both want in... All this cluster is why we are thinking of leaning towards ways to fix the DM/player ratio instead of changing sign ups.

Sounds like the problem is how to get more DMs, not less players. That said, it's not a trivial problem. Can you increase the number of slots/play more days in a week? Can the FLGS shoulder the expense that would have been charged to the players, so that DMs just earn store credit without charging anyone?

[Pelle]

And there's the player, who just spent their money on a complete product and don't want to also spend to be able to play it. It's much the same as paying full price for a videogame and then having to pay for a subscription or microtransactions on top of that, and players are pretty damn vocal about how they feel about that particular topic.


It's not really the same. To play D&D, it is not enough to buy the books, you need someone to play it with. And one of those players must want to do the extra job of DMing. If no one wants to to that job, you can't really expect people to do it for you for free.

One needs to find a sustainable way of making people want to DM. Paying might be an option, but it also makes players expect higher quality DMing, and the pressure to deliver might make people less interested to DM as well. Charging might make some people stop playing as well. In theory the store should sell more stuff with more players, and could maybe be convinced that they should support the DMs themselves anyways, even without charging players. But ultimately, it is the players who wants to play who has to find a way to get someone interested in DMing for them. I think the most important is to make sure that DMs feel that their work is appreciated in the community, that makes it meaningful to contribute. Entitled antagonistic players just make DMs burn out much faster.

I'm not interested in AL myself, but to me it sounds like charging to play would be going against the purpose of that. Not sure if there are any rules regarding it.

[Corsair14]

No but then I refuse to play in stores too. Usually its a players job to buy snacks, beer, and such but even then...

[Anonymouswizard]

Hasn't this exact thread been posted before?

Similar ones, although they tend to be more focused on the GM getting money.

Unlike other 'paid GMing' threads I'm more okay with this, although I'd splice a quid or two off the fee before giving store credit to the GM (or allow GMs to claim money for modules they're running from the 'table space pot').

What's essentially being done here is two things. One is essentially adding a charge for each seat being used to play an RPG and not a more profitable game. Working sterling, I'd say £1 per hour per seat is reasonable, more for a private room or if snacks (or potentially a meal for £15+ an evening).

The other is rewarding GMs for GMing. I'm all for this, although I'd make it a fixed amount of store credit per hour or evening or session rather than depending on the number of players at the table (if only to reduce competition between GMs for as many players as possible).


A similar question.

Let’s say your home group wants to play Tomb of Annihilation (or whatever). The book costs $50. There are five people in the group plus the DM. The DM asks you to each give her $10 to offset the cost of the adventure. How do you feel about this situation? To me it seems reasonable and I’d be happy to do it as a player but probably not willing to ask for it as a DM cuz I’m just too shy to ask people to give me money lol

Not directly. I would be willing to buy the GM's drinks/snacks/meal for a week or two until I'd paid my share of it. Something feels wrong about directly supporting, but I have no problem with paying for something else for the GM.

[Dyndrilliac]

IMO the DM has to pay $4 a week to get the adventure and spend the time to prep it, he should be entitled to a bit of reimbursement, and if that comes in the shape of things like minis and maps it just makes the game better for everyone.

Your store makes DMs buy the adventure they are volunteering to run for the store's customers??? My store treats it kind of like video game demo, and an opportunity to get free exposure. DMs get access to the adventure at no cost. If people like the campaign module, and they typically do, then they buy it. I guess my perspective is biased because my local FLGS has seen more business since 5e's release than it ever has. They sold out of their entire first shipment of PHBs on the very first day they arrived, and the demand for 5e products in my area hasn't abated in the years since release. Virtually all the regulars at the store have every published book, in physical copy, bought from the physical store. So they were able to use all that extra profit to massively upgrade the store, and they now have plenty of space and plenty of loyal customers and so don't feel the need to nickel and dime people. People spend enough money on their own without having to make it mandatory, and charging an admission fee - no matter how reasonable - would likely be seen as an opportunistic move. I understand that is apparently not the same situation you're in, so take my input with the usual grain of salt. But I can tell you that what you're proposing probably wouldn't fly where I am, because 5e is plenty profitable for the store already.

[Laereth]

My local store where I play AL charges 5$ for the night (DMs don't pay), but the whole pot of cash gathered is split into store credit prizes (1 per table) and we roll for it. So players get some of their money back in credit.

[PeteNutButter]

Your store makes DMs buy the adventure they are volunteering to run for the store's customers??? My store treats it kind of like video game demo, and an opportunity to get free exposure. DMs get access to the adventure at no cost. If people like the campaign module, and they typically do, then they buy it. I guess my perspective is biased because my local FLGS has seen more business since 5e's release than it ever has. They sold out of their entire first shipment of PHBs on the very first day they arrived, and the demand for 5e products in my area hasn't abated in the years since release. Virtually all the regulars at the store have every published book, in physical copy, bought from the physical store. So they were able to use all that extra profit to massively upgrade the store, and they now have plenty of space and plenty of loyal customers and so don't feel the need to nickel and dime people. People spend enough money on their own without having to make it mandatory, and charging an admission fee - no matter how reasonable - would likely be seen as an opportunistic move. I understand that is apparently not the same situation you're in, so take my input with the usual grain of salt. But I can tell you that what you're proposing probably wouldn't fly where I am, because 5e is plenty profitable for the store already.

It has nothing to do with the store nickel and diming people. It was our idea's not the store's. Using the store as store credit just seemed like a way to reward the DM, to keep it simple and to increase our symbiotic relationship.

[Dyndrilliac]

It has nothing to do with the store nickel and diming people. It was our idea's not the store's. Using the store as store credit just seemed like a way to reward the DM, to keep it simple and to increase our symbiotic relationship.

That's all fine and dandy, but that's not how the people who suddenly have to pay are going to see things when they didn't have to pay before. Even if you tell them it was your idea and not the store's, there is at least a little cynicism inside everyone and that part of their minds is going to tell them "the store is trying to pry more money out of our pockets" regardless of whether or not that is a fair characterization. Now that may not be enough to make them stop showing up; I'm not a mind reader - I can't predict how the customers in your area are going to react - but the players in my area would see this as a shameless cash grab, regardless of the PR campaign behind it. Again, that's likely because my local FLGS is very profitable, and sees a large increase in business from the weekly AL games held there. So there is much less of an excuse for making people pay. I recognize that your situation is different. Your OP asked our opinion, and I gave mine. Do with it what you will.

[PeteNutButter]

That's all fine and dandy, but that's not how the people who suddenly have to pay are going to see things when they didn't have to pay before. Even if you tell them it was your idea and not the store's, there is at least a little cynicism inside everyone and that part of their minds is going to tell them "the store is trying to pry more money out of our pockets" regardless of whether or not that is a fair characterization. Now that may not be enough to make them stop showing up; I'm not a mind reader - I can't predict how the customers in your area are going to react - but the players in my area would see this as a shameless cash grab, regardless of the PR campaign behind it. Again, that's likely because my local FLGS is very profitable, and sees a large increase in business from the weekly AL games held there. So there is much less of an excuse for making people pay. I recognize that your situation is different. Your OP asked our opinion, and I gave mine. Do with it what you will.

Thanks for the input.

[CantigThimble]

If people aren't used to paying for games and then it starts without some significant compensation in quality then they're going to be pissed. So if you set up a new, nice, gaming room and charge to use it then that would be seen as reasonable, slapping a price tag on the same table people have been using for months is going to get a different response.

Now, if there isn't anyone willing to DM at your store and you offer some incentives with payments to the store to cover them then that would probably work, but if that's not the situation then people will expect DMing to stay free.

You would probably have better luck monetizing games by just selling more snacks/soda. Or maybe coffee. It's the best way to turn a bunch of people hanging around your store all day into money.

But of course, it depends a lot on your area and the kind of people who show up. The really successful LGSs I've seen provided tons of play area, freely available boards and wargaming terrain, and in response the regulars bought pretty much all their gaming stuff at the store instead of Amazon.

[willdaBEAST]

This is a topic I brought up in another post and the response utterly confuses me. In my post I asked whether people would pay for a DM to create custom content, or if they would even pay for a session with an amazing DM like Chris Perkins. The answer from the majority of posters was an aggressive NO!

There's a complete disconnect with how we value things. Getting paid $12/hour to flip burgers, totally fine. Paying a DM $5/hr, what an outrage! There were stories of DMs who work children parties and run a session for 6 or more kids at $5 a head for 4 hour sessions. THAT'S LESS THAN A BABYSITTER. Why are creative pursuits treated like there's no work involved? Why don't we want a world where being a professional DM is a possible career for more than a handful of people? That doesn't stop you from playing with friends or hosting a free game. Paid games and free games are not mutually exclusive.

Being a good DM is extremely challenging and takes constant work, why is compensation such a foreign concept? We pay a premium for professions that require a lot of training or experience, so why would we value unskilled labor over something like DMing? Don't we all want to have a profession that is challenging, fun and fulfilling? I can't help but shake the sense that people are thinking, "I have to go to a job I don't really like to make money, so should everyone else!" Or the elitist mentality concerning musicians that have "sold out" when they have more than 5 fans ("they used to be good"). I think we're a long way off from DMing being something that could even supplement your income, but why not foster an environment where that becomes more realistic?

The idea that money will ruin the integrity of a game is laughable, especially when we're discussing a pittance. There aren't many activities you can do for 3-4 hours for $5, even sitting in a coffee shop will probably run you more than that.

[Arcangel4774]

It may work better, and be more fair for people who dont have the cash, to pay to reserve a spot for the next game. In this manner people who are serious and can pay, will do so, simultaneusly keeping the dm they prefer. If you dont have the money it wont punish you accept by the lack of availabilty of spots to play and favorable dm.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a topic I brought up in another post and the response utterly confuses me. In my post I asked whether people would pay for a DM to create custom content, or if they would even pay for a session with an amazing DM like Chris Perkins. The answer from the majority of posters was an aggressive NO!

There's a complete disconnect with how we value things. Getting paid $12/hour to flip burgers, totally fine. Paying a DM $5/hr, what an outrage! There were stories of DMs who work children parties and run a session for 6 or more kids at $5 a head for 4 hour sessions. THAT'S LESS THAN A BABYSITTER. Why are creative pursuits treated like there's no work involved? Why don't we want a world where being a professional DM is a possible career for more than a handful of people? That doesn't stop you from playing with friends or hosting a free game. Paid games and free games are not mutually exclusive.

Being a good DM is extremely challenging and takes constant work, why is compensation such a foreign concept? We pay a premium for professions that require a lot of training or experience, so why would we value unskilled labor over something like DMing? Don't we all want to have a profession that is challenging, fun and fulfilling? I can't help but shake the sense that people are thinking, "I have to go to a job I don't really like to make money, so should everyone else!" Or the elitist mentality concerning musicians that have "sold out" when they have more than 5 fans ("they used to be good"). I think we're a long way off from DMing being something that could even supplement your income, but why not foster an environment where that becomes more realistic?

The idea that money will ruin the integrity of a game is laughable, especially when we're discussing a pittance. There aren't many activities you can do for 3-4 hours for $5, even sitting in a coffee shop will probably run you more than that.
People pay 15 dollars per month, roughly, for WoW.
People at 5-7 (or more) dollars per instance of a movie.
I find myself agreeing with you that a pay for play DM isn't a bad idea, but my caveat is that with that donation/fee will come an expectation of quality of experience. (And the thing for kids' parties is a great idea).

If you go to roll20 there are a variety of people advertising "for a fee" DM games/campaigns. Apparently, they get enough takers.

I'd consider doing that except at the moment, I am still working on the DM tools in roll20 and have to figure a few more things out. I then need to run for a while in my brother's world to work the bugs out for how to be a good DM on roll20. Our first 5e Dm is/was fantastic, so I've already learned a few things from him.

[Breashios]

I would absolutely pay to play. I also am a good DM and would be able to run games if I were paid (but store credit probably isn't gonna cut it). If it were just me I'd run games all weekend for free, but I've got a family now. The only way my wife would let me consistently run more games than I do now (5 hour sessions every two weeks, excluding holidays, family birthdays, and out of town trip weekends) is if I were paid for it. That's just the dynamic I'm stuck with.

Generically though, it is fair for any game shop to charge whatever they want for table space. That is their decision based on supply and demand. They certainly do make much more money on miniature tactical games than on role-playing.

I certainly didn't spend any money on D&D after getting the three core books other than PotA (and that was technically my wife's anniversary gift to me). I've had most of my bag o dice and hundreds of miniatures (most for war games) for more than 20 years. More than half the players at my house don't even have a players handbook of their own. Be realistic!

War gaming is where the hobby shops make their impulse buying $.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is a topic I brought up in another post and the response utterly confuses me. In my post I asked whether people would pay for a DM to create custom content, or if they would even pay for a session with an amazing DM like Chris Perkins. The answer from the majority of posters was an aggressive NO!

...

The idea that money will ruin the integrity of a game is laughable, especially when we're discussing a pittance. There aren't many activities you can do for 3-4 hours for $5, even sitting in a coffee shop will probably run you more than that.

The reason for the no varies between people.

For some it's a case of not being able to afford it.

For others it's because they're used to the GM being a friend, and find charging a friend money insulting. This kind of person generally would be willing to compensate a GM through paying for their drinks/share of the meal, or by providing their house as a venue, or a number of other reasons.

It can be a case of just being used to not paying for it.

They can also be like me, and be in a position of 'why pay for a GM? I can run my own game'. If I'm given the choice between paying £10/hour (at this point a 4 player game starts to pay vaguely fairly, assuming an hour of prep for an hour of play) to play with a 'top tier' GM or preparing and running a game, I'd take the latter. I've got no interest in playing with a celebrity or well regarded GM, and I like doing it myself.

But there's nothing wrong with paying your GM or GMing for a fee. I wouldn't want to play in a game like that unless I had no other choice, which would mean something's stopping me from running my own, but there's nothing wrong with it. Especially if as the GM you buy your own drinks and snacks and can turn out consistently good material (shouldn't even need to be amazing, just good enough to keep people coming back).

Sometimes the no is a 'this is a stupid idea', sometimes it's a 'I wouldn't'. As many people have pointed out in other threads, people do pay to play at conventions already, so the idea of a paid/professional GM isn't that far fetched. The problem is all the people willing to do it for free.

[Sigreid]

This is a topic I brought up in another post and the response utterly confuses me. In my post I asked whether people would pay for a DM to create custom content, or if they would even pay for a session with an amazing DM like Chris Perkins. The answer from the majority of posters was an aggressive NO!

There's a complete disconnect with how we value things. Getting paid $12/hour to flip burgers, totally fine. Paying a DM $5/hr, what an outrage! There were stories of DMs who work children parties and run a session for 6 or more kids at $5 a head for 4 hour sessions. THAT'S LESS THAN A BABYSITTER. Why are creative pursuits treated like there's no work involved? Why don't we want a world where being a professional DM is a possible career for more than a handful of people? That doesn't stop you from playing with friends or hosting a free game. Paid games and free games are not mutually exclusive.

Being a good DM is extremely challenging and takes constant work, why is compensation such a foreign concept? We pay a premium for professions that require a lot of training or experience, so why would we value unskilled labor over something like DMing? Don't we all want to have a profession that is challenging, fun and fulfilling? I can't help but shake the sense that people are thinking, "I have to go to a job I don't really like to make money, so should everyone else!" Or the elitist mentality concerning musicians that have "sold out" when they have more than 5 fans ("they used to be good"). I think we're a long way off from DMing being something that could even supplement your income, but why not foster an environment where that becomes more realistic?

The idea that money will ruin the integrity of a game is laughable, especially when we're discussing a pittance. There aren't many activities you can do for 3-4 hours for $5, even sitting in a coffee shop will probably run you more than that.

There's a big difference between not personally being willing to hire a DM and thinking hiring a DM is a thought crime.

I don't see myself paying, not because I think the whole idea is terrible, but because turning my gaming hobby with friends into a business transaction between those friends changes the nature of the whole relationship.

[strangebloke]

There's a big difference between not personally being willing to hire a DM and thinking hiring a DM is a thought crime.

I don't see myself paying, not because I think the whole idea is terrible, but because turning my gaming hobby with friends into a business transaction between those friends changes the nature of the whole relationship.

Exactly. I wouldn't pay, because I wouldn't play with people I don't know. I've tried it, and it just isn't as fun.

If I was new in town and didn't know anyone who wanted to play with me, yes, I would absolutely pay for a seat at a good table. If my buddy was working really hard on his session, I definitely would bee willing to kick him a few bucks, especially if the guy had financial needs. I've got the cash, if he provides me with something I like and he could use the cash more than me, what level of ass would I have to be to say no?

Side note: the real thing driving down the cost, though, is the easy availability in games. unless you're living in a small (<10,000) town, there are going to be plenty of free tables you can play at, and hundreds of tables online. So if I'm paying 5 bucks, it's either my friend, or a premium table with good players and a thoughtful DM.

[BloodOgre]

The store we have has different games for different nights. D&D is Wed and Sun. They do not charge, but they do have bottled drinks, snacks and pizza for sale (popcorn for free), and they provide game grid mats and markers and AL adventures for free. DMs get a free drink and a free slice of pizza. I don't know how much merchandise they sell during an evening, but they sell out of pizza and they have a pretty good markup on it. The things is, many gaming stores have tried and failed here. This is the first store to host regular game play. The place is never empty, and business seems to be doing well. So even , if they were to break even, I think they'd still run the gaming events. If they were to charge for the events, I think they'd see a dropoff in people who come and play, and people who don't play regularly tend to lose interest and quit being regular customers, and that would be bad for business.

Considering all the money I've already paid for books and dice for my son (and me), I don't think I'd want to pay to play. OTOH, when we host D&D at our house, I end up shelling out $30-$40 for chips, lunch, pop and snacks.

[Breashios]

Exactly. I wouldn't pay, because I wouldn't play with people I don't know. I've tried it, and it just isn't as fun.

If I was new in town and didn't know anyone who wanted to play with me, yes, I would absolutely pay for a seat at a good table. If my buddy was working really hard on his session, I definitely would bee willing to kick him a few bucks, especially if the guy had financial needs. I've got the cash, if he provides me with something I like and he could use the cash more than me, what level of ass would I have to be to say no?

Side note: the real thing driving down the cost, though, is the easy availability in games. unless you're living in a small (<10,000) town, there are going to be plenty of free tables you can play at, and hundreds of tables online. So if I'm paying 5 bucks, it's either my friend, or a premium table with good players and a thoughtful DM.

Ok, but what if you enjoyed the in-person experience and those dozens of tables in your metro area were mostly run monty hall style or just weird? Would you pay for a campaign that happened to be tailored to your tastes? was run well and included like-minded players?

Obviously, if you have access to a game you enjoy for free you'd take that over the same thing with a fee, but when the game you'd enjoy the most is going to cost you a $1 an hour, wouldn't you be happy to pay that?

[ZorroGames]

The idea there are “professional DMs” is ludicrous when I think of all the medical professionals I worked with in Nursing.

[Sigreid]

The idea there are “professional DMs” is ludicrous when I think of all the medical professionals I worked with in Nursing.

It's really not crazy. I mean most people that I know prefer to spend most of their time on the player side of the screen. The idea that someone who is good at DMing making themselves available to groups of friends who all want to play isn't strange at all. You're essentially a party clown for hire, but there nothing wrong with that. It would be difficult to build a customer base, and you'd have to work at giving each group the experience they desire.

[strangebloke]

Ok, but what if you enjoyed the in-person experience and those dozens of tables in your metro area were mostly run monty hall style or just weird? Would you pay for a campaign that happened to be tailored to your tastes? was run well and included like-minded players?

Obviously, if you have access to a game you enjoy for free you'd take that over the same thing with a fee, but when the game you'd enjoy the most is going to cost you a $1 an hour, wouldn't you be happy to pay that?

Obviously I would. At this point in my life, 5 hours is much, much more valuable than $5. Heck, I could see myself shelling out fifteen or even twenty for a really good group, if I didn't have friends who would play with me. Out here, a movie ticket for me an my wife hits 25-30 bucks.

The thing is, though, how would I ever know how good they are? The premium suggests that the other players are very serious about the game, but is the table a good fit for me?

[willdaBEAST]

There's a big difference between not personally being willing to hire a DM and thinking hiring a DM is a thought crime.

I don't see myself paying, not because I think the whole idea is terrible, but because turning my gaming hobby with friends into a business transaction between those friends changes the nature of the whole relationship.

I think most posters are reasonable, but there's a sizable portion of the population that seem to think paying anything is incompatible with "real" DnD. In my prior thread I posed the question of whether having amazing custom tailored stories or elaborate miniatures/physical models of the environments would help (think Dwarvenaut). Basically, if the production value of the sessions scaled with the amount of money each player was investing, would you be more inclined to pay? That didn't seem to get much traction.

Again, I'm not suggesting everyone should pay or anything like that, I'm curious why there seems to be a strong resistance to anyone getting paid to DM. The amount of money seems to be irrelevant.

What I would ask you though, are there any other activities that you can think of within a group of friends where one individual is spending significantly more time to prepare the activity? I'm not asking to be cheeky, I'm curious what might correlate. A chef preparing a meal for their friends is somewhat similar, any other ideas? From my experience, most friend activities tend to be much more egalitarian in terms of time or resource investment. If it's not, there tends to be a rotation in who is responsible, "you host this week, I'll host next week". That doesn't translate well into DnD because it would be a challenge to have an ongoing campaign with multiple DMs. It does work for one offs.


As many people have pointed out in other threads, people do pay to play at conventions already, so the idea of a paid/professional GM isn't that far fetched. The problem is all the people willing to do it for free.

You bring up a good point about conventions. Context seems to be important. I guess where I'm coming from is, we have a huge opportunity here. Things like e-sports, streaming and vlogging have all become lucrative, yet DMing itself is largely viewed as something you shouldn't have to pay for. I think that mentality is fine, but it shouldn't prevent DMs who have mastered their craft to be rewarded by it.

Personally, I would hesitate to pay for an AL league game (store is too crowded and loud, tables are too full, campaign is too linear), but $5 is a trivial amount for any kind of entertainment, let alone an interactive one. Any kind of payment would probably solve my first few criticisms of AL though.

I think escape rooms are a good counter example. You pay $30-$40/person for an hour of what is essentially a DM-less DnD session and that market is exploding. I think that price is exorbitant for what you're getting and you could easily recreate most escape rooms in a garage, but it's become a huge business. Why not try to create opportunities like that for the DnD community?

[Dudewithknives]

If it was a well written game with actual plot and RP going on, played by players that know what they are doing and work well together, and the game is planned out and ran fairly?

Yep, I will even pay for the whole group, and bring snacks.

[willdaBEAST]

The thing is, though, how would I ever know how good they are? The premium suggests that the other players are very serious about the game, but is the table a good fit for me?

I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of DM yelp already exists. Being able to rate and review sessions on some kind of database doesn't seem like it would be much of a challenge to set up.

[Anonymouswizard]

The idea there are “professional DMs” is ludicrous when I think of all the medical professionals I worked with in Nursing.

It depends on what you mean by the term.

If we're talking about 'somebody who offers GM services for money' it's not so bad. Sure, we probably need a better name for it, as most people won't be doing it as their full time profession.

If we're talking about it as a full time profession, yeah it's weird. There are businesses that make it work, but at that point most of them are essentially charging for the experience, not the actual game, because they'll be doing a lot of stuff around it, or they're essentially a babysitting service.

[willdaBEAST]

The idea there are “professional DMs” is ludicrous when I think of all the medical professionals I worked with in Nursing.

Can you elaborate? Is it the term professional that is giving you pause? Like somehow a person calling themselves a professional DM diminishes the value of a medical professional?

When I use the term "professional" I mean it in the sense that you're making money off of it, generally the majority of your income. I don't think it suggests any form of schooling or qualification when it's used outside of the context of fields like medicine or law.

[Vogie]

I mean, if there's value in it. Consider both of the below scenarios of "playing D&D":

1) Theater of the mind by someone who isn't particularly sober, has to look things up constantly (and is still wrong), and half-asses it on a rickety card table while sitting on rusted folding chairs next to someone who hasn't showered this week? Gods no.

2) A "Molly's Game" scenario where the DM is trying to be on the level of Matthew Mercer or Aram Vartian, with tricked out miniatures, knows his or her stuff, sharing a labor of well-crafted love on a gorgeous table with comfy chairs and hygienic people with either free or decently-priced snacks nearby? Hell yes.

There's a chunk of the Venn Diagram of D&D/MTG overlap who are happy to plunk down how much per draft? $12? And I've gone to LGS's where they will do that draft, then will even leave most of the cards behind, or throw them out after the draft. Even outside of MTG, there are people who pay money for LoL, Overwatch, AoH, WoW, you name it, over and above what is needed to "just play".

So if there's an influx of players and DMs in an area, there may be demand for a premium game. Anybody can play around a kitchen table, but you want to play a game that is guaranteeing X, Y, & Z, perhaps there's a market for that. If there isn't, the person running it will find out RIGHT AWAY.

Even $20-30 for a private room, snacks & drinks, and a one-shot under a more-than-competent DM for 3-4 hours would be perfectly acceptable.

[GorogIrongut]

First and foremost, I'm personally in the camp of people who would be happy to pay to play dnd. It's a minimal expense for entertainment and an opportunity to bond with other people. It wouldn't faze me in the slightest.

That said, we're talking about your store in particular. Here's what I would do:
1. I would start by instituting an rsvp system. Players who want to play who haven't rsvp'd and there's room for them need to chuck a buck in the 'I'm sorry DM that I'm such a shmuck' bucket. People will do a lot to avoid having to pay hard cash so will fall more quickly into line with using the RSVP system. The RSVP system would also deal with a lot of your other problems (i.e. players not showing up, confusion about who gets in on what adventure, etc.)
2. I would then create one of your gaming sessions as an elite system. If you've got a private room, use that. Background music. Special lighting. Charge for the experience. This enables the players who are happy to pay for the opportunity to choose who they play with without making all your sessions pay to play. Cap the amount of players allowed per session so that those who pay are able to get more 'game time'.
As this fills up, advertise for another session providing a similar experience. A good median would be to have half of all dnd sessions be pay to play and half be rsvp/free that way you foster newer/broke players while enabling those willing to spend for their experience.
3. If your store isn't selling snacks, soda, pizza, etc. then they need to. As an incentive to pay to play, make the snacks in the room just a little bit cheaper than out in the main store so the players feel that they're getting perks for paying to play. At worst, they may buy their friend, not in the pay to play game, a couple extra sodas. At best, they'll consider it to be discounted and more freely spend their money on snacks.
4. The division of funds will depend a bit on who is providing what. If the store provides a sound system for the private room, a special cooler with snacks... or other tangible perks, then they should get a portion of the pot. If the DM is doing all the providing, then he should get the lion's share of it.
One of the stores I used to play in had a private room to play in and a perk of being a 'private' player was the ability to access the lockers in that room. You could rent lockers for a nominal fee and leave your books, character sheets, miniatures, terrain, cards, armies in those lockers. You put the lock on and ran the risk, but only 'private' players ever used the room and it was checked after every session. No one ever broke into the lockers and everyone had the ease of having their game stuff there without having to cart it around in their car. People eagerly paid the Shop the monthly rental fee for this feature and it made players a LOT more willing to be a 'private' player.

Kit the private room out with limited edition posters and cool artwork and people would happily pay to have the extra service.

*Throws in two cents*

[Dyndrilliac]

For the record, I'm not opposed to paying for quality service. I'm not opposed to paid DMs. I have a Roll20 subscription. I bought into D&D Beyond even though I already bought all the physical books too. If the space needed to be rented, I'd be okay with everyone being required to contribute. I chip in for snacks and drinks when I play with other groups. I'm not opposed to paying in principle.

It's just that it's my experience that stores offer the space for free for their customers to use because they will keep the customers there for longer and therefore have a greater chance of selling them additional merchandise. Regardless of who came up with the plan, you won't be able to escape the optics that it's the store implementing the policy of charging for a service that used to be free.

[Pex]

It depends.

A game can happen at a deli with indoor seating. In such a case I don't mind buying their food for the lunch or dinner and later snack. That's being courteous. Keep your voices down and they tolerate you.

If I had to pay a fee in addition to the food, no way. I know of places where we can play for free if someone's home is not available. I won't pay just to play.

If it's a store where a private table needs to be rented for a total of $20 so that everyone only need to chip in a couple of bucks, not ideal but ok. If everyone had to pay the $20 or $10 even, no way. I know of places where we can play for free if someone's home is not available. I won't pay just to play.

I will never, ever pay the DM.

[Laserlight]

If you frame it as "rent the space", you'll probably get better responses than "pay to play" or "pay the DM". Point out that the store has to make money and MTG will get priority if you don't put a couple of bucks on the table.

FWIW, I've driven three hours each way and paid $10-20 for a single 6-8hr wargame (we had to rent a large meeting room). $50-100 plus hotel room for a Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday morning gaming con. If I had a good DM, chipping in $5/wk for a room would be trivial.

[Asmotherion]

Your local game store is free to have their politics, but you're also free not to abide/take your DnD somewere else.

We have about 14 players, and 6 more who come and go. Since we don't have an official store, we go for a coffee or pizza and play there. On an other group I play with, we play on Skype.

The point is, if a large group of people is going to occupy a store, the owner will probably want to see some sort of proffit out of it. Suggest Coffee/Burgers/Pizza or some kind of snak being served at the store, and a no-snacks from home policy, so that everyone ends up happy.

Imagin it was your store, and 20 people were gathering every week or so, not leaving any money. I would seek to find a way to gain some profit out of it, in this modern ecconomy, but the best way is to make this a win/win situation by providing something useful in return.

In the end, you're not paying for D&D, you are paying the store who is no longer willing to allow so many people in his Store for free. Everything else is Marketing on his part.

[willdaBEAST]

I will never, ever pay the DM.

Can you explain why? I think we can all agree that DMing is not equal. Some people are great at it, others not so much. If a person is dedicating a huge portion of their time outside of the game to creating as engaging an experience as possible for you, why is compensating them not even a possibility for you? I assume you've DMed before too?

[Sigreid]

What I would ask you though, are there any other activities that you can think of within a group of friends where one individual is spending significantly more time to prepare the activity? I'm not asking to be cheeky, I'm curious what might correlate. A chef preparing a meal for their friends is somewhat similar, any other ideas? From my experience, most friend activities tend to be much more egalitarian in terms of time or resource investment. If it's not, there tends to be a rotation in who is responsible, "you host this week, I'll host next week". That doesn't translate well into DnD because it would be a challenge to have an ongoing campaign with multiple DMs. It does work for one offs.


Honestly, even with D&D and RPGs in general I've never played with a group where the DM chair wasn't taken by the person who had an idea and wanted to do it for a while. Right now for my group it's me. When someone else has an idea they want to run, or I say my DMing is spent it'll go to another person.

Of course lots of things come up in life where friends all chip in to cover the costs. That's different than paying someone to do something. Again, I'm really only interested in playing with friends and paying someone changes the nature of the relationship.

Edit: Not to mention I want it to be a fun game for them as well and not feel as though it's a job.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, people in over GMed groups will have a different reaction to those in under GMed groups.

As I have said before, I'm willing to part a GM if nobody else in the group is willing to do it and I can't. I personally would never all to be paid, but I traditionally request that somebody else hosts, provides snacks, or does some sort of work to litter my workload (somebody else providing snacks is my favorite, as I always am the one buying the books).

In fact, the was one group where my contribution to a campaign was having spent £50 on the rulebooks (they now cost £70) so that we had two sets at the table. That group was so used to either having one rulebook or the GM printing out the summary of the rules that nobody minded that I tended not to bring snacks. The next campaign I did it again, although I'd owned those rules for years.

[ImproperJustice]

A few questions:

Will there be in-game purchases?

Like, maybe I could buy a stone for 2.99 that doubles my exp earned that session, or for $10 I could start play with staff of the Archmage?

What is the refund policy on a bad game?
Like my GM just didn’t perform to me expectations by not giving me the experience I wanted?

Can I pre-order the next module before it’s released?

[furby076]

Our AL group at our local store has been growing a lot and we are at capacity, now needing a fourth DM. One of the organizers suggested charging players to play as a method of reducing players and incentivizing DMs. (Basic economics, demand too high: raise the price.)

The entry fees would be no more than 5 bucks a player and the full amount would go to the DM as store credit. That way the store gets a bit of business while the DM who had to pay for the adventure (usually about $4 or more for hardcover) gets to walk away with some dice or minis or some such. We’d kind of have to do it that way because tax laws.

What do you guys think? Get out your torches and pitchforks? Is this a common practice in any of your areas?

As it stands now we can’t get enough DMs and they eat the cost of the adventure as well as having to work for prep time.
Ok, lets clear out the tax issue....and nope. If the store wants to pay the dm for his time, then the store better consider min wage for play session plus planning/setup. Giving the money to the store, so they can give store credit to the em, is crap. Just put a jar out and have the player's drop 10 and give to dm as cash.

The incentive for stores to have gaming night is 1) store doesnt look like ghost town, and 2) players/dm will buy stuff. If you want to reward the DM, then cash or go home . store is worried about tax law, but not employment laws......

I am fine with paying DM, but id have options for players to try out for free. Your first 3 visits = free. Then you pay. You want to encourage new players to join.

Im also fine for paying the store (pay the bills and all), but be honest about it. Stores rent space, pay utilities and employees, and insurance. So yea, players can pay for that....but be upfront

[furby076]

In a word, no. I do not pay to play. Never ever.

Renting a “private room” and splitting the cost, fine.

So its ok for the comic store to rent you space?

[Luccan]

If it were my only way to play? I'd be willing to consider it. No guarantees.

A few questions: If the full amount goes to the DM as store credit, do any of your current DMs even spend enough at the store that such a thing is appealing? Do your players express a lot desire for things in the store they can't afford? The incentive only works if it actually appeals to those it's incentivizing. Something to consider.

Secondly, would this benefit the store enough that they'd be more willing to accommodate you? It sounds like that is a problem as well.

Finally, this isn't really a question, but be sure enough players are cool with this. Just having to pay will turn many away, I'm sure, but turning too many away could induce an opposite problem. Or even just kind of lead to a weird middle problem: The same people are still always DMing and while player numbers have reduced, you haven't actually gotten the desired effect. All that's happening now is the number of active players in your local store has reduced and they're paying to play. Basically, actively shrinking by too much, potentially scaring off new players, and leaving your AL group stagnant.

A few questions:

Will there be in-game purchases?

Like, maybe I could buy a stone for 2.99 that doubles my exp earned that session, or for $10 I could start play with staff of the Archmage?

What is the refund policy on a bad game?
Like my GM just didn’t perform to me expectations by not giving me the experience I wanted?

Can I pre-order the next module before it’s released?

You realize if you're paying for a DM, you're paying for a service, right? This isn't like buying a video game and then getting micro-transactioned. A game session isn't a product. Even having the books doesn't automatically entitle you to a game. I'm not crazy about the idea, but this isn't remotely helpful. It's just sarcastic complaining toward someone you don't even play with.

[othaero]

I've read several of these debates already and it seems there are three camps of people (this is me being an American and generalizing everything and I'm not being critical of these groups as I understand their points of view but.......)

Group 1: people semi new to DnD, typically HS/college kids where money is tight and don't/can't afford to spend more on the hobby. Usually least vocal about negativity.
Group 2: (I fall into this group) typically are in the middle of their life with "responsibilities", whatever form you think that takes. Generally we have less time than Groups 1 and 3 to play and have enough liquid cash and the willingness to pay for an experience. If this means people get excluded for, in our opinion at least, a better experience then we are for it.
Group 3: People who have been playing RPGs for several decades. They typically have acquired a very large collection of RPG materials and therefore don't see a need to increase their collection beyond what stuff they want. Typically are the most vocal supporters of either camp; paying or not paying.

Yes at a gaming store I would pay probably up 10$ USD a weekend.

What is the DM getting out of it? Is he just getting cash, then no. Is he getting a discount? I would say a percentage off and not a fixed dollar amount would be more to my liking. It encourages DMs to buy more expensive stuff at the store.


I typically end up DMing for groups of friends. I do it because I enjoy their company and we all have fun together. I know that I will have fun with them regardless if the sessions goes off great or I TPK them. Do they buy/pay/reimburse me anything? Usually not. They might buy the case of beer for the night or pay for the pizza but for the group, never me personally. I have no problem with that but that's just me.

The reason I have been hesitant to play in AL is all the complaints I hear from people: Too many players/too little DMs, crowded space, body odor (why does this have to be a thing :( ), everybody is a murderhobo who doesn't only thinks their is ROLLplay. Yet the ability to meet players and possibly form your own splinter group is very attractive. Now being married, having a family, and job that requires me to work close to 60+ hrs a week you could accurately say my time is at a premium.

Now I'm nowhere near perfect as a DM, but I like to think I do a decent job. Yet I like to let go of the reigns every now and then and be the one who wrecks the DMs carefully laid plans. In my experience, if you charge a very nominal fee to do something it brings the whole experience up. Now this obviously varies, but everything activity that I have done that is technically free but charged a few bucks for it I have enjoyed.

[UnderwaterAir]

I wouldn't pay to play.

I would chip in to order food for everyone to share.
I would chip in if we had to rent a conference room in a business building once every two weeks or so.
I would chip in if the store asked everyone for donations and it was clear and apparent that this money was only going towards keeping the place open/heating/electricity/replacing chairs and tables, etc.

But flat out pay to play DND? Nah. If it came to that I'll just stay play with my friends and/or find other groups that just plays for fun.

[mephnick]

On the other side, I'm not sure I'd ever accept pay to DM. I feel like I'd constantly be worried about sharing spotlight time, wondering if a harsh judgement would turn a customer away from the store, or be influenced to create content I wouldn't enjoy running. It would no longer be D&D to me.

[quark12000]

I already pay to play. Books ain't free. Hell, if you get D&D Beyond, they want you to pay for books twice!

[MeeposFire]

Personally I would not accept money nor would I pay money to play D&D. It is not something that fits how I do gaming. It feels way to mercenary for me. I do not even like playing games at conventions and this is one of the big reasons why.

I will buy the DM food though. Is that different from paying the same amount of money (possibly less money) to play? To me very much yes first the food is a gift and one that is my choice to give. It is like being a good guest and bringing food to a potluck dinner yes I could come without but that could be pretty rude. As a DM I also accept food and drinks. Friends buy each other food they do not usually pay each other money to play a game.

As for paying for a space if I was somehow forced to use a space that we had to pay for I would certainly chip in to pay for it however I would find any other solution before doing that. Why pay to use a space when we all have apartments and houses? Why pay when I can use a dorm study space? Why pay when the local library has spaces you can reserve for free? Heck even no longer being a student I could go to the local student center and get a table in the basement and play a game in comfort. The smaller the area your options do become more limited but I would check around there are often numerous options for free play spaces and some could be right under your nose (seriously check your local library they may have "study" rooms you can reserve that you can shut off from the rest of the library so as not to bother other patrons or have them bother you).

If you are older and lucky like me you may even have a local bar that does weekly D&D games and playing games at the table is expected (go Side Quest in Lakewood OH) where playing a game you bring is free though they may expect you to buy some food or drinks (but hey that can hit the spot). Same goes for stores I will buy snacks from them but I do not like paying to play unless I get something outside of a game.

[Durzan]

How about this: Create a membership program for your customers. DM's get a cut of the profits as an affiliate.

[MxKit]

Yeah, our local game store has a membership program and it's kind of great. It gets customers a 10% discount (so they're more inclined to spend more!), and also lets them come in and use the store's chairs and gaming area to play any games they want, whenever they want during store hours -- and the store itself provides a lot of possible games. They stock a bunch of different board games, card games, and war games, and often have multiple tabletop games running; they also sell drinks and snacks to people using that space for a tiny bit extra. It's a monthly membership, but since people get so many varied things out of it, and not just D&D, they're happy to keep paying for it.

Do something like that, and if you want to incentivize DMs, just give active DMs their monthly membership for free, and maybe a bit of free food and drink during their sessions.

[Luccan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the OP actually works for the store

[ImproperJustice]

If it were my only way to play? I'd be willing to consider it. No guarantees.

A few questions: If the full amount goes to the DM as store credit, do any of your current DMs even spend enough at the store that such a thing is appealing? Do your players express a lot desire for things in the store they can't afford? The incentive only works if it actually appeals to those it's incentivizing. Something to consider.

Secondly, would this benefit the store enough that they'd be more willing to accommodate you? It sounds like that is a problem as well.

Finally, this isn't really a question, but be sure enough players are cool with this. Just having to pay will turn many away, I'm sure, but turning too many away could induce an opposite problem. Or even just kind of lead to a weird middle problem: The same people are still always DMing and while player numbers have reduced, you haven't actually gotten the desired effect. All that's happening now is the number of active players in your local store has reduced and they're paying to play. Basically, actively shrinking by too much, potentially scaring off new players, and leaving your AL group stagnant.


You realize if you're paying for a DM, you're paying for a service, right? This isn't like buying a video game and then getting micro-transactioned. A game session isn't a product. Even having the books doesn't automatically entitle you to a game. I'm not crazy about the idea, but this isn't remotely helpful. It's just sarcastic complaining toward someone you don't even play with.

Paying for a DM to provide a session turns it into a product. Once it becomes a product you pay for, the expectations for a return on your money increase. I’m really suprised you can’t see that.

It’s got nothing to do with sarcastic complaints and everything to do about pointing out how the free and creative process of role-playing changes once you monetize it.

The questions were meant to provoke thought towards where does monetizing game sessions end.

It’s helpfulness is found in my disparate hope that people will see how no good will come from such practices.

But hey, maybe as the forum police of what you perceive as productive discusion you can shut down enough alternative viewpoints to create an environment where everyone agrees with you.

[MxKit]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the OP actually works for the store

From the looks of it, I think you're right. I'd still suggest they try to see if the store will do things that way; either way they're going to have to ask the store to cooperate with their plans (since they say the money would be going to the DM as store credit instead of directly as cash).

Actually, honestly, I'd suggest the store just stop being an AL location. The store obviously isn't that interested in AL if they're doing nothing to incentivize the DMs already, including not providing any materials, adventures, food, etc., even at a discount rather than free. Hell, I work for a store (not the gaming store I mentioned) that isn't even official or AL legal, but we hope D&D groups will bring more business; we're allowed to use one of the starter sets we sell, and any of the books so long as we're careful and don't damage them, and we provide a table and drink samples. The store wants DMs to decide to run there for their official AL games, but is going to make them eat the entire cost of running? It's not the lack of payment that would keep me from wanting to DM there.

(And also, it doesn't even sound like the store wants them to AL there. If the size of the place is a problem, why not change venues? Or run at multiple venues? The store keeps kicking them out to make room for MTG games; they don't seem interested in being an AL location.)

(Also also, imo, it's never a good idea for an AL group to start trying to charge money specifically because they hope a chunk of the people who want to play AL won't want to pay/won't be able to afford it. That's likely to backfire super hard, especially if it gets out that's why they're charging; a sort of "well, if they don't want players, I won't play there" reaction even from people who might have been willing and able to pay otherwise.)

So... yeah. I don't think this is going to work out the way OP thinks it will; I think many customers will want to be offered more than just "the AL experience" if they're going to have to start paying money, the store's going to have to agree to offer the DM incentives in the first place (hell, does the store even like the idea of charging for AL? does it know these ideas are even being floated? asking if that's even something they'd want to do is a good first step!), and it basically just seems like it's not going to go well. Having to pay just to sit down and play when there are other options isn't ideal, having to pay for AL kind of defeats at least some of the point of of AL, having to pay at one AL table and not at another one is just going to have players switch to the one where they don't have to pay (or just do home games), if players figure out why they're suddenly having to pay it's likely going to get messy, and the store might not even agree to any of this.

PeteNutButter, you said somewhere that a big problem is that you feel obligated to DM because there are so many players and not enough DMs, and that you'd rather be playing, so you want more DMs to solve that problem. You've also said you're not willing to help train up players so they can become DMs because you don't want to put in any more work than you already are. Both of these problems are legitimate and you shouldn't have to put in any more work, or DM any more than you want to. But in this case, it seems like trying to do AL at this store is just a bad idea all around. They don't particularly care about you doing AL there, they aren't interested in helping or encouraging you, they kick you out in favor of other things, you're attracting far more players than you DMs can handle, you don't even want to be DMing. How did this AL thing there even get started? Why don't the few people who actually want to DM do smaller, closed games? AL-legal or not, they don't have to open it up to literally everyone who walks in, and if you're trying to do something smaller-scale and less often you'll run into fewer scheduling conflicts with the MTG crowd in the first place.

[Luccan]

Paying for a DM to provide a session turns it into a product. Once it becomes a product you pay for, the expectations for a return on your money increase. I’m really suprised you can’t see that.

It’s got nothing to do with sarcastic complaints and everything to do about pointing out how the free and creative process of role-playing changes once you monetize it.

The questions were meant to provoke thought towards where does monetizing game sessions end.

It’s helpfulness is found in my disparate hope that people will see how no good will come from such practices.

But hey, maybe as the forum police of what you perceive as productive discusion you can shut down enough alternative viewpoints to create an environment where everyone agrees with you.

I'd like to apologize for my tone. I've noticed the forums have become more hostile lately and I don't want to contribute to that. I was out of line. I'm sorry for assuming you were trying to be sarcastic.

I would recommend, if I may be so bold, that you use a less... controversial hyperbole, in the future. I'm not sure your example inherently provokes thought and clearly, it can lead to some heated, less observant replies. But that is my opinion.

However, I'd like to make my fervent refutation clear: I do not believe the OP is benefiting off of this, beyond trying to find more DMs for his AL group. The DMs would essentially be working for store credit, not actual cash. In fact, in my view, it's probably better to see it as a monetary incentive for the store to not kick them for MtG players and the store reciprocates somewhat by rewarding the people who work to keep AL players coming. Additionally, since the OP does not work for the store (and neither would the DMs), I do not think it is likely that a DM will allow the store to sell micro-transactions for their table, even if the store thought of the idea.

Additionally, and I say this as a college student working minimum-wage, I find it highly unlikely and not particularly empathetic that someone would be willing to raise much of a fuss over 5 dollars. This does assume competent DMing, but perhaps a policy that allowed a refund if you left within, say, the first hour, due to bad DMing? I have more thoughts on bad DMing below.

I have my own misgivings, but they do not relate so much to the paid part of paying to play.


-snip-

This sums up my own thoughts pretty well. I have doubts this actually provides much incentive and it seems the store might not want them anyway. Also, I said in my original post if was my only way to play and I did mean that. I'm curious why this group, which is apparently large enough to be several groups, has decided to stay at this particular store that doesn't seem to want them. And none of the players will DM? I'll admit, I don't have a huge sample size, but in my experience, at least two in every group of 5-8 are willing. Mostly out of desire to play the game, even if they can't be PCs.

And I agree with MxKit, you shouldn't be required to put in more work than you are now. But if no one wants to help new DMs, even if they are incentivised to do it, you'll see a drop in quality. Which then leads to the thought: Why am I paying money for a now noticeably worse experience with (potentially) fewer people? And if the store still doesn't treat your group well, then you could be giving them 20-30 bucks a week to kick you out for MtG.

I don't think this will work because even if it provides the exact things you were initially looking for, the quality drops.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to grab the other willing DMs, propose you rotate every week or two, then first-come-first-serve it. Each of you gets a chance to be players for several weeks, then DMs for a bit. And just let the other players accept that if they want to play consistently every week, some people need to pony up and DM.

[Contrast]

But hey, maybe as the forum police

Steady on there. If you don't want people to perceive you as snarky, maybe try making your points in a less snarky way :smalltongue:

To OP:

I play at a gaming club who rents out a room once a week. First session is free. Otherwise you can pay a set fee to play (including DMs). You can pay a membership fee which gives you reduced entry for 1 year (pays for itself after...5-10 sessions? I forget). Buying entry also buys you a raffle ticket (DMs also get entry into a separate DM only raffle for each session they DM). Once the pot has accumulated enough they hold a raffle for RPG merch. This way DMs get rewarded without it feeling like a direct transaction.

Works for me because the club focuses on shorter 1-3 week games and tries out lots of different systems. If I was playing with the same group every week for a long period I'd probably just suggest we go play at someones house instead.

[MrStabby]

Would I pay? Maybe. I am guessing I would be happy to pay a rate that the top 2% of DMs get in order to get a top 2% DM.

Paying is unusual and I would expect an unusually high quality experience.

[ImproperJustice]

Fair enough, my tone was likely more aggressive than was warranted.

It was largely motivated by my overly strong and perhaps even irrational opinions on the subject.

We may be discussing small amounts and specific store/GM situations.
I just have concerns about how paying for sessions could change the hobby in a negative way over time, and should probably just leave it at that.

[CaptAl]

My Adventure League game takes place in a store that has something like 10 tables running through the week. Everyone pays $5 per day, the money is applied to a store credit account, and the owner raffles away something every week (minis, dice, books, etc etc). The DM's get discounts on everything at the store, not quite employee discounts, and get the adventure hardbacks at cost. It guarantees that the store gets some revenue from everyone who is hanging out, no one is "paying" to play because it's all saved into the credit account, and it helps ensure the place stays open for business. I have 0 problems with the setup my FLGS uses.

[willdaBEAST]

I just have concerns about how paying for sessions could change the hobby in a negative way over time, and should probably just leave it at that.

That's totally valid and a reasonable concern. However, you don't seem to be turning that same critical eye towards the idea of DMs being expected to do it for free. What kind of negative effects does that have? Just because it's the traditional way to do things, doesn't mean it's not damaging. Some aspects I can think off of the top of my head are: burning out, diversity and player investment.

DMs burning out is a real problem. It's a lot of work and it can easily feel thankless. Earning store credit, getting paid per hour or even having a tip jar could go a long way in alleviating some of that pressure. As players I think we should also remember to thank our DMs, even when they don't do the best job.

The way I see it, a DM that works for free is kind of like an unpaid internship. Participants are going to skew towards a certain amount of privilege. Donating the amount of time that DMing warrants (we should probably all agree upon some ballpark figure for how much time a DM is prepping, I've heard an hour per hour of gameplay), isn't very compatible with modern life unless you're young, already have means or are supported by someone else. That's going to trend towards white men, at least in the US, much like how unpaid internships can be a barrier to people of color. Paying DMs isn't going to magically fix that, but it may help increase DM diversity down the line.

A lot of posters seem to be focused on players expecting more out of the DM when money is involved, but if you flip that and look at it from the perspective of players paying more attention and being more invested (figuratively and literally) in the campaign, that can be a good thing. It might encourage players not to browse youtube on their phone mid-session and they might actually notice when you tie in elements of the backstory, that they wrote, into the campaign. It could cause a shortage of players, but it also could cull problematic players who only want to troll. A simpler benefit to "players expecting more out of their DM" is just that, the raised expectations of payment might motivate your DM to take the campaign to new heights.

I'm not trying to suggest that payment guarantees anything or solves all problems, but I do think it's inconsistent to only look at the potential negatives of paying a DM while not as critical towards unpaid DMs.

[MrStabby]

Great point about thanks.

As a DM feedback (including negative feedback) is one of the things that drives me forward and keeps me engaged. Players exploring with me what works for both of us is a great way to ensure people are willing to spend more time on that side of the DM screen.

[mephnick]

However, you don't seem to be turning that same critical eye towards the idea of DMs being expected to do it for free. What kind of negative effects does that have?

None hopefully, because DMs should be doing it for enjoyment like any other player. If it feels like unrecognized labour it's time to leave the hobby and reflect on how you spend your leisure time.

[2D8HP]

Hahahahahahahaha....

Just a moment please...

Hahahahahahaha!

Oh your killin' me..

Hahahah!

Okay I think I....

Ahahahahaha!

*splashes cold water on face*

*Dries face and eyes*

Oh, that's a good one!


Okay, seriously provide some corned beef with good mustard, some nice brown ale, Helen Mirren, Liam Neeson, Thandie Newton, and/or Patrick Stewart to act out NPC's and I may pay that and more, but really?
What it would quickly turn into is cheap babysitting, as parents would pony up the $5 to have someone else watch their kids for a few hours.

Adults can schedule their own games for free.

I've seen it happen with a weekly in-store Pathfinder game in Oakland, California

[Honest Tiefling]

I've seen it happen with a weekly in-store Pathfinder game in Oakland, California

I need more information on the drama.

As for paying, I could see what 2D8HP is saying, I mean, we are practically neighbors. Assuming this didn't happen, I wouldn't mind throwing down a few bucks if the event had some perks:

Getting rid of the neckbeards. I am not paying for someone to breathe down my neck about how their half-dragon, half-ninja could kill my support character instantly and be forced to RP with Stabby McMurderhappy. I am not paying to try to engage with someone starting at the female gamers. I am not paying to try to roleplay with someone trying to hog the spotlight and declaring every other character to be their vassals.
Enforcing standards on grooming to avoid B.O. Just no.
The game store was pleasant. Good lightning, no gamer funk, decent tables, chairs and a decent noise level. I'm not expecting a grand experience here, just a place not covered in dust that doesn't smell of stale cheetos.
The DM's are nice. I am not expecting the reincarnation of Gary Gygax, but people who are decent at DMing, friendly, and polite. Have some damn standards!


I do think that people are going to (and have!) objected to paying, but what about offering a minor discount to DMs? Something like get X% off of a purchase of X or less? It could be minor, but you might get more people to DM and maybe rotate. Maybe if you DM, you get your fee waived for the next time you are a player to encourage rotation.

Offering food for sale and giving the DMs a set amount of free food could also work.

[willdaBEAST]

None hopefully, because DMs should be doing it for enjoyment like any other player. If it feels like unrecognized labour it's time to leave the hobby and reflect on how you spend your leisure time.

That's a pretty weak stance. You're basically saying, "this is the way it's done, if you don't like it, get out". I'm not telling anyone how to run their games or asking for every DM to get paid. I'm questioning why there seems to be the assumption that a DM getting compensated will ruin the integrity of the game. If you disagree with any of the negative consequences of unpaid DMs that I listed, please explain why.

DMs do considerably more work to provide enjoyment for the players. That preparation time doesn't have to be unenjoyable, but as a DM you're doing it primarily for the benefit of others. Whether you volunteer that time or not, it's work. That's a fundamentally problematic relationship. Can it be equally beneficial for everyone? Of course, but that doesn't mean it's a healthy way to encourage a positive relationship between players and the DM.

Personally I think paid DMs are inevitable. DnD is booming and I think we'll see some network or cable reality shows popping up in the near future and that'll lay the foundations for DMing to be a more realistic profession. Another poster mentioned iTunes being groundbreaking when it offered songs for $.99 in the era of Napster. I see an opportunity here for us to be ahead of the curve and figure out what important considerations there might be for a paid DM.

[mephnick]

DMs do considerably more work to provide enjoyment for the players. That preparation time doesn't have to be unenjoyable, but as a DM you're doing it primarily for the benefit of others.

I guess I don't get this idea because I do prep, which I enjoy, for sessions, which I enjoy, for myself and my enjoyment. If the players enjoy it I enjoy it more, but I'm not doing it FOR them. No wonder some DMs get burnt out, they don't even know why they're playing. They should do something else.

[Sigreid]

That's a pretty weak stance. You're basically saying, "this is the way it's done, if you don't like it, get out". I'm not telling anyone how to run their games or asking for every DM to get paid. I'm questioning why there seems to be the assumption that a DM getting compensated will ruin the integrity of the game. If you disagree with any of the negative consequences of unpaid DMs that I listed, please explain why.

DMs do considerably more work to provide enjoyment for the players. That preparation time doesn't have to be unenjoyable, but as a DM you're doing it primarily for the benefit of others. Whether you volunteer that time or not, it's work. That's a fundamentally problematic relationship. Can it be equally beneficial for everyone? Of course, but that doesn't mean it's a healthy way to encourage a positive relationship between players and the DM.

Personally I think paid DMs are inevitable. DnD is booming and I think we'll see some network or cable reality shows popping up in the near future and that'll lay the foundations for DMing to be a more realistic profession. Another poster mentioned iTunes being groundbreaking when it offered songs for $.99 in the era of Napster. I see an opportunity here for us to be ahead of the curve and figure out what important considerations there might be for a paid DM.

You seem to skip over the main not pay argument. If a group wants to higher a DM so they can all play in the party as friends, and they're all solvent enough that this is viable, more power to them.

If, however, the DM is one of the group of friends then formally paying the DM is going to affect the friendship. At that point it's no longer just a hobby among friends. It's now a business relationship where everyone expects the DM to provide a minimum amount of joy. The pay comes with an obligation and a bad session is now a big deal.

If a group wants to higher a DM, cool. I'd advise not hiring a friend you want to keep though.

[Anonymouswizard]

Getting rid of the neckbeards. I am not paying for someone to breathe down my neck about how their half-dragon, half-ninja could kill my support character instantly and be forced to RP with Stabby McMurderhappy. I am not paying to try to engage with someone starting at the female gamers. I am not paying to try to roleplay with someone trying to hog the spotlight and declaring every other character to be their vassals.
Enforcing standards on grooming to avoid B.O. Just no.
The game store was pleasant. Good lightning, no gamer funk, decent tables, chairs and a decent noise level. I'm not expecting a grand experience here, just a place not covered in dust that doesn't smell of stale cheetos.
The DM's are nice. I am not expecting the reincarnation of Gary Gygax, but people who are decent at DMing, friendly, and polite. Have some damn standards!


If somebody could give these, I'd happily toss in £5 a session for a game. I wouldn't even mind playing a module, just as long as the GM can run it entertainingly.

As a low level neckbeard (read: I forget to shave often) I agree that the main thing that stops me from trying actual official clubs is the worry about social skills (on both sides, horray for autism). There's one I'm considering trying out even though it interferes with my chess club, just because the membership fee is high enough I can see the worst of the worst staying away.

[ImproperJustice]

You seem to skip over the main not pay argument. If a group wants to higher a DM so they can all play in the party as friends, and they're all solvent enough that this is viable, more power to them.

If, however, the DM is one of the group of friends then formally paying the DM is going to affect the friendship. At that point it's no longer just a hobby among friends. It's now a business relationship where everyone expects the DM to provide a minimum amount of joy. The pay comes with an obligation and a bad session is now a big deal.

If a group wants to higher a DM, cool. I'd advise not hiring a friend you want to keep though.

I heartedly concur with this viewpoint.

I have GM’d over the years because I enjoy the hobby and the mastery of the systems. I enjoy an opportunity to partner with my friends and their friends to help bring exciting stories from my imagination combined with their input to life.
I feel that money thrown into that just starts to poison the whole enterprise.

Or to go back to my DLC satire: most of this stuff used to come for free.

[Honest Tiefling]

As a low level neckbeard (read: I forget to shave often) I agree that the main thing that stops me from trying actual official clubs is the worry about social skills (on both sides, horray for autism). There's one I'm considering trying out even though it interferes with my chess club, just because the membership fee is high enough I can see the worst of the worst staying away.

I think there's a massive gulf between a neck beard and being socially awkward. I'm socially awkward myself. I would even go as far as to say there might be a degree of expectation of a certain level of social awkwardness present in most RPG activities.

I mean getting rid of the really bad people. The ones who talk over everyone. The ones who roll their eyes when people do things that aren't what they want because they're 'stupid'. The ones who won't shut up about MLP or Rick and Morty or Warhammer. (Nothing wrong with the fandoms, just certain neckbeards). The ones who make racist, homophobic or sexist jokes. The ones who keep trying to bend or break the rules and whine about creative freedom.

Then again, as long as you didn't attack the DM or inappropriately hit on anyone you'd be leagues above a lot of people I've encountered.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think there's a massive gulf between a neck beard and being socially awkward. I'm socially awkward myself. I would even go as far as to say there might be a degree of expectation of a certain level of social awkwardness present in most RPG activities.

I mean getting rid of the really bad people. The ones who talk over everyone. The ones who roll their eyes when people do things that aren't what they want because they're 'stupid'. The ones who won't shut up about MLP or Rick and Morty or Warhammer. (Nothing wrong with the fandoms, just certain neckbeards). The ones who make racist, homophobic or sexist jokes. The ones who keep trying to bend or break the rules and whine about creative freedom.

Then again, as long as you didn't attack the DM or inappropriately hit on anyone you'd be leagues above a lot of people I've encountered.

Oh, I was just being self-deprecating about my lack of grooming (besides, only third level neck beards get the offence ability).

[Sigreid]

Also just thought that given people would likely expect a session to last 3 or 4 hours with a party of 4 or 5, you'd probably have to charge at least 20 dollars per person to make it a career. And that would make it a low paid career with virtually no job security.

The only ways I could see it working would be to either be a celebrity able command much more, or be using it as a marketing tool to promote and sell your modules.

[Ronnocius]

Also on Roll20 you can find lots of games that are "pay to play". These games rarely have many players, and while it is obviously different to pay for a game at a store than pay some random dude online, it is still worth noting.

[willdaBEAST]

You seem to skip over the main not pay argument. If a group wants to higher a DM so they can all play in the party as friends, and they're all solvent enough that this is viable, more power to them.

I don't see how I skipped over anything. I've reiterated over and over that I don't think a DM running a game for free is incompatible with another group paying their DM. Or even the same DM having different arrangements with different groups.


If, however, the DM is one of the group of friends then formally paying the DM is going to affect the friendship. At that point it's no longer just a hobby among friends. It's now a business relationship where everyone expects the DM to provide a minimum amount of joy. The pay comes with an obligation and a bad session is now a big deal.

First of all that's an assumption. In a lot of cases I'd agree with you, but paying a friend for a service doesn't automatically change the relationship. You could make the same argument in reverse, expecting a friend to provide a service for free is going to affect the friendship. What I'm suggesting is the imbalance between players and DMs is terms of time investment can be ameliorated by the DM having way more power over the game than the players (maybe that's enough payment for a lot of DMs), but it can also lead to resentment or burning out. I'd also argue that pretty much every party already expects some minimum amount of joy: they're investing their time to play a session and they expect that time to be worthwhile. Friends are generally going to be more tolerant of a bad session than strangers, but that's not guaranteed. What other hobbies are there where one individual has a much greater responsibility the rest of the group? That's not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious. I mentioned a chef cooking for friends in a prior post.

Again, I'd like to point out my earlier comparison to an escape room. You pay up front for up to an hour in the room, solving puzzles, etc. If you finish early, it's the same price. If you fail to escape, same price. Why is that an acceptable business practice when a DM is suddenly held to a higher standard if they're being paid? Couldn't you just as easily reach an agreement when deciding to pay the DM? "As the DM I will try to provide as engaging and enjoyable a session as possible. I'm open to feedback and will make myself available for any constructive criticism." Pointing out that there's a glut of DMs working for free is not a good argument against whether or not they should be compensated.

To be more transparent, I work as a freelance sound designer and I have to deal with situations like this professionally. People I've never met before will ask me to work on their movie for free because "it'll be fun". By working for free on their project, I'm essentially paying them. I have an overhead, keeping the lights on costs me X dollars a day. When a client isn't paying me, I'm covering my operating costs for them. There are plenty of students or amateurs that will work for free or for sub-minimum wage, but they rarely do a professional job and they depress the overall market by lowballing or volunteering.

[willdaBEAST]

Also just thought that given people would likely expect a session to last 3 or 4 hours with a party of 4 or 5, you'd probably have to charge at least 20 dollars per person to make it a career. And that would make it a low paid career with virtually no job security.

The only ways I could see it working would be to either be a celebrity able command much more, or be using it as a marketing tool to promote and sell your modules.

This is where my criticism of our society's valuing of creative work comes into play. We'll spend $40+/person on a night out at a bar/restaurant, $30-40 for an hour in an escape room, $12+ for a movie ticket, but $20 per person for a 3-4 hour DnD session seems crazy (for a party of 5 that breaks down to $5/hr to the DM for a 4 hour session) and that's not even taking into account prep time. For me personally, the highs of a good DnD session blow any of the other activities I mentioned out of the water. It's the most immersive and collaborative form of entertainment that I can think of. That coupled with how difficult it can be to be a good DM implies to me that there should be value in a premium experience. Specialized trades tend to be rewarded accordingly and I don't think DMing should be an exception. Why would we pay someone more to dig a ditch?

[Sigreid]

This is where my criticism of our society's valuing of creative work comes into play. We'll spend $40+/person on a night out at a bar/restaurant, $30-40 for an hour in an escape room, $12+ for a movie ticket, but $20 per person for a 3-4 hour DnD session seems crazy (for a party of 5 that breaks down to $5/hr to the DM for a 4 hour session) and that's not even taking into account prep time. For me personally, the highs of a good DnD session blow any of the other activities I mentioned out of the water. It's the most immersive and collaborative form of entertainment that I can think of. That coupled with how difficult it can be to be a good DM implies to me that there should be value in a premium experience. Specialized trades tend to be rewarded accordingly and I don't think DMing should be an exception. Why would we pay someone more to dig a ditch?

First, it's less about being worth it and more about its sustainability.

Second, if 4 or 5 people pay 20 each for 4 hours of play time then that's 80-100 for 4 hours.

Third, the labor for movies and escape rooms and albums is resellable you don't have to remake the movie for each group. Whereas that 4 hours DMing can't be resold.

It's not hostility to creative types it's just economic realities.

Edit: and part of my point was that 5 to 10 per person wouldn't really be sufficient. You'd probably need it to be at least 20, and more like 50 if you want it to be viable to sustain the DM.

[Pex]

Can you explain why? I think we can all agree that DMing is not equal. Some people are great at it, others not so much. If a person is dedicating a huge portion of their time outside of the game to creating as engaging an experience as possible for you, why is compensating them not even a possibility for you? I assume you've DMed before too?


It's only a game. Being a DM is not a job. If the DM is not a known friend to me already the idea is we would be. The DM is the DM because he wants to be. Being the DM is his fun in playing the game. The DM is not more important than anyone else at that table. It's his campaign, but it's everyone's game.
He is not the Lord & Master.

[Pelle]

I guess I don't get this idea because I do prep, which I enjoy, for sessions, which I enjoy, for myself and my enjoyment. If the players enjoy it I enjoy it more, but I'm not doing it FOR them. No wonder some DMs get burnt out, they don't even know why they're playing. They should do something else.

I enjoy prepping and DMing as well. The point of the OP though, was that they didn't have enough players that feel the same and want to step up and DM. That the two of us enjoy it, and want to do it for free, doesn't help those players who can't find a volunteer DM.

[mephnick]

I enjoy prepping and DMing as well. The point of the OP though, was that they didn't have enough players that feel the same and want to step up and DM. That the two of us enjoy it, and want to do it for free, doesn't help those players who can't find a volunteer DM.

I guess so. I feel anyone you have to bribe to run a game is probably going to be pretty bad at it.

"I don't want to DM but you're paying me so..fine, here we go." doesn't seem like a great base to build a good campaign.

[Pelle]

I guess so. I feel anyone you have to bribe to run a game is probably going to be pretty bad at it.

"I don't want to DM but you're paying me so..fine, here we go." doesn't seem like a great base to build a good campaign.

I agree with that as well. So I think the focus should be on the community building, to encourage people to want to do volunteer work. Giving DMs a symbolic sum/discount/free stuff/whatever to help show the appreciation may work, or it may not depending on how it is managed. But approaching it as any other non-profit organization would probably be constructive.

[willdaBEAST]

Third, the labor for movies and escape rooms and albums is resellable you don't have to remake the movie for each group. Whereas that 4 hours DMing can't be resold.
The session itself, no, but you could be creating a module or a campaign and run it for various groups to minimize some of the prep time. You'd want to tailor it to each group, but you wouldn't have to build the setting, NPCs or encounters from scratch. This also suggests to me that the immersion and collaboration of DnD is worth a premium. There really isn't any other form of entertainment like it. I think that's why people balking at even paying $5 a session is hard for me to understand.


It's not hostility to creative types it's just economic realities. It's both. It's hard for people to see value in a field that from the outside appears fun. They often underestimate the amount of time you've dedicated to your specialization, how much time doing a proper job will take and the cost of equipment/tools. This is especially true when the results feel organic.

A DM making minimum wage for prep time and the session (assuming 4 hours of prep and a 4 hour session) would total to $84 per session in California ($10.50/hr). For 4 players that would break down to $21/session per player, $16.80 for 5 players. That's perfectly reasonable in my mind, even doubling that would be easily worth it for me if I enjoyed the campaign. Would I pay that for AL? No, but that's a play style choice. I would definitely pay minimum wage for an AL DM though and think they're being exploited two ways: by Wizards of the Coast and by game stores. They're actively generating money for both parties for a soda and a slice of pizza.


It's only a game.
All sports are only games, same with e-sports, chess, scrabble, etc. There are professionals in all of those fields, why exclude DnD? Are you upset that people are running successful DnD streams or podcasts?


Being a DM is not a job. If the DM is not a known friend to me already the idea is we would be. The DM is the DM because he wants to be. Being the DM is his fun in playing the game. The DM is not more important than anyone else at that table. It's his campaign, but it's everyone's game.
He is not the Lord & Master.
Professional DMs already exist. Having the personal opinion that it's silly for people to pay for a DM is fine, but it's an existing profession. Stop presenting your stance as a fact, you make a lot of assumptions and assume that you're being objective. Even looking at the traditional player/DM arrangement starts to unravel your argument. Why do people feel obligated to give the DM free food or drinks? Players recognize that the DM is putting outside work into running the campaign and want to reward them for it, that's not even up for debate. Capping those rewards at food or drinks is arbitrary.

A good DM will make sure every player is engaged and enjoying the game, on top of running the actual content. That is a unique role and there's no game without someone in that position. I doubt you'll find many DMs who love every aspect of DMing. Some part of the process is for the greater good, rather than their own enjoyment. That could be prepping, scheduling, managing problematic players, controlling the spotlight, or being a resource on all things mechanical. It's everyone's game, but ultimately the DMs responsibility.

I seem to be in the minority on this issue though, at least in terms of people actively participating in the conversation. I don't really feel the need to continue it any further, but am happy to address any specific questions.

[Chugger]

This is getting silly. You have feet or some way to move and get around - and a brain that can judge for quality and make decisions.

Use this power. Pay or not. Leave and don't go back if it stinks.

It's that simple. Market forces will correct problems or won't, depending on how willful and willing to endure problems groups of people are. Just like that other game called Real Life.

To answer the OP I'd pay if I thought the experience was worth the cost.