Point buy

[DeanH]

The 27 point buy system isn't complicated, but since arithmetic isn't intuitive to everyone, I thought it might be useful to run through the possibilities. You choose your race and stats together.

For general effectiveness, you want to start with 16 or 17 in your main stat and 14 or 16 in Con for hit points. One can take 15 or 17 in Con and later raise it with a feat like Resilience, but this leaves you with a wasted stat point for a significant part of your character's career, unless you're starting at a relatively high level. The exception is that a mountain dwarf may want to take 17's in Str and Con and raise both to 18 at the first ASI. You will want a 16 in your third stat if you're playing a class like monk or paladin or if it fits your character concept, such as a dexterous caster. Otherwise the third stat may be 11-14. Again, 15 is generally not an optimal choice.

For the lower stats, Str is of least importance unless you're using it for attacks and can generally be 8 or 16-17. Int and Cha also have less common saves and skills that can be left to others, though taking 8 in these may force you to roleplay in ways that aren't to everyone's taste. Dex and Wis have more common saves and affect initiative and Perception respectively, making them less dumpable.

You will generally prefer even stats, so to start lets list the possibilities for any of the races that get +2 and +1 stat bumps (or +1/+1/+1), assuming a 16 in the +2 stat and 14 or 16 in the +1 stat.

16/16/14/12/8/8
16/16/14/10/10/8
16/16/12/12/10/8 +1 in one of the last four stats.
16/16/12/10/10/10 +1 in one of the last four stats
16/14/14/14/9/8
16/14/14/12/12/8
16/14/14/12/10/10
16/14/12/12/12/10 +1 in one of the last four stats

If you use your +1 on a stat you take at less that 14 or your +2 on a stat you take at 14, you lose a point on a lower (12 or less) stat (or the "+1 in one of the last four stats"). If you use your +2 on a stat you take at less than 14, you lose two points on a lower stat.

One reason to take an odd stat is to take a 17 in your primary stat and take a feat like Heavy Armor or Actor at your first ASI. This requires your race have +2 in the stat and costs you -2 on one of the lower stats. Another reason is to get a 13 for a multiclassing or feat prerequisite. You can use one of the "+1 in one of the last fours stats"'s or switch a point from a 12 or 10 to get a 13.

A mountain dwarf can take Con 17 instead of 16 in one of the above combinations, or Con 16 and +2 to a lower stat or stats to a max of 13, or Con 14 and +1 to a lower stat.

A half-elf can take Cha 17 instead of 16 in one of the above combinations, or Cha 16 and +2 to a lower stat or stats to a max of 13, or Cha 14 and +1 to a lower stat to a max of 13, or Cha 10-13.

A variant human or other race with two +1's gets -2 on a lower stat relative to one of the combinations listed above.

A regular human can get the following combinations:

16/16/16/9/9/9
16/16/14/13/9/9
16/16/14/12/10/9
16/16/14/11/10/10
16/16/13/13/10/9
16/16/13/12/10/10
16/16/12/12/12/9
16/16/12/12/11/10
16/14/14/14/12/9
16/14/14/14/11/10
16/14/14/13/13/9
16/14/14/13/12/10
16/14/13/13/13/10
16/14/13/13/12/11
16/14/13/12/12/12

Examples:

Suppose you want to make a half-orc barbarian. The first choice is whether you want 16 or 17 Str. There aren't a lot of +1 Str feats, so you take 16. Next, do you want 14 or 16 Con? 16 seems appropriate for a barbarian. Next, what is your third highest stat? 14 in Dex seems good for AC with medium armor, initiative, saves, and possibly skills. Looking at the list above, that gives options 16/16/14/12/8/8 and 16/16/14/10/10/8. You don't want to completely dump Wis, so you either take it at 12 or take it at 10 and decide which of the remaining stats to make 10 and 8.

Suppose you want to make a mountain dwarf rogue/sorcerer. Again, you'd like Str and Con 16 and Dex 14, but you need 13 Cha for the multiclass, and, even with the +2 to 12/8/8 from mountain dwarf, you only end up with 9/8 in Wis and Int. Taking 14 Con instead, we see the list includes 16/14/14/12/12/8 and 16/14/14/12/10/10. Adding the extra point from mountain dwarf with 14 Con to Cha, that gives Wis and Int 12/8 or 10/10.

Suppose you want to make a half-elf warlock. This time, you decide you want to be able to take the Actor feat so you start with 17 Cha. However, since this is a half-elf, you treat the 17 as 16 when looking at the list. Warlock benefits from some Dex and Con, so you decide these should be 14 or 16 each. Looking at the list, if one is 16 that leaves 12/8/8 or 10/10/8 in the remaining stats. If both are 14, that gives 14/9/8, 12/12/8, and 12/10/10 in the remaining stats. You're content with Str 8, so throw out 12/10/10. You then need to decide whether you want to have the option of multiclassing a level of cleric, which provides a number of benefits but requires a 13 or 14 Wis, and whether you are content to play a stupid character, in which case 8 or 9 Int is acceptable, or want at least 10 in Int.

Suppose you want to make a yuan-ti warlock despite having no use for the Int bonus. Taking a 16 Cha, we have the same options as in the last example but with a point less and a minimum 9 Int. This means 10/9/8 if one of Dex and Con is 16 and 13/10/8 or 12/11/8 if not.

[Tiadoppler]

Some people don't use point buy, but prefer to roll their stats. Could you please list those options too?

This is a commendable idea, but I'm not sure that it's actually going to be more understandable for people confused by a 27 point buy. Specifically, it doesn't show what race is needed for the various stat options you list. I've had luck explaining it like a menu.

"8" - FREE
"9" - $1
"10" - $2
"11" - $3
"12" - $4
"13" - $5
"14" - $7
"15" - $9

You have $27 to 'buy' six numbers.

STR __ for $__
DEX __ for $__
CON __ for $__
INT __ for $__
WIS __ for $__
CHA __ for $__

[DeanH]

It says that the first list is for +2/+1 races and the second for regular human, with the modifications for other races. I'm not sure what you find unclear. Listing all the possibilities one might roll would take many pages.

[Talamare]

Some people don't use point buy, but prefer to roll their stats. Could you please list those options too?

This is a commendable idea, but I'm not sure that it's actually going to be more understandable for people confused by a 27 point buy. Specifically, it doesn't show what race is needed for the various stat options you list. I've had luck explaining it like a menu.

"8" - FREE
"9" - $1
"10" - $2
"11" - $3
"12" - $4
"13" - $5
"14" - $7
"15" - $9

You have $27 to 'buy' six numbers.

STR __ for $__
DEX __ for $__
CON __ for $__
INT __ for $__
WIS __ for $__
CHA __ for $__

This is pretty clear and simple to understand.
I recommend this over presenting a massive list of options.

[OldTrees1]

It says that the first list is for +2/+1 races and the second for regular human, with the modifications for other races. I'm not sure what you find unclear.

You seem to be overestimating the difficulty of point buy and underestimating the clarity of your wall of text prose. If you tidied up the formatting (perhaps by removing the racial modifiers and all but one sentence) then you might make it clearer than point buy.

Personally, when I am teaching new players, I use the menu approach. On the rare occasions where a player wants more help, I have them buy one ability at a time from the one they value most to the one that value least.
"Which ability is your character good at? How good are they at that? Okay that cost 7 points so you have 20 left. Which ability is your next best trait?"


Listing all the possibilities one might roll would take many pages.
Blue text often means sarcasm.

[JellyPooga]

Here's how I think about it;

"Low/Dump Stat" (8) - Free
"Average to Good Stat" (9-13) - Efficient
"Prime Stat" (14) - Gonna cost you 7
"Waste of Points" (15) - Your funeral

Choose Race. Choose a couple of "Prime Stats", usually one boosted by Race (to 16), the other not. Buy your +1 stat (or stats) to 13 because it's efficient. Spend the rest as you will. That way you get an array that looks a bit like 16,14,14, X, Y, Z. Usually good enough for any character.

Point buying a 15 (before racial mods) is just a waste; it's either impatient, overstating the importance of having a 16 at char gen, or poor character choices and/or planning. It leaves your character scraping for points in other areas because no character is truly SAD and it's not your strengths that kill you; it's your weaknesses and that 15 opens up too many weaknesses.

[Talamare]

Here's how I think about it;

"Low/Dump Stat" (8) - Free
"Average to Good Stat" (9-13) - Efficient
"Prime Stat" (14) - Gonna cost you 7
"Waste of Points" (15) - Your funeral

Choose Race. Choose a couple of "Prime Stats", usually one boosted by Race (to 16), the other not. Buy your +1 stat (or stats) to 13 because it's efficient. Spend the rest as you will. That way you get an array that looks a bit like 16,14,14, X, Y, Z. Usually good enough for any character.

Point buying a 15 (before racial mods) is just a waste; it's either impatient, overstating the importance of having a 16 at char gen, or poor character choices and/or planning. It leaves your character scraping for points in other areas because no character is truly SAD and it's not your strengths that kill you; it's your weaknesses and that 15 opens up too many weaknesses.

I rather have 15/14 with Racial giving me 16/16

You have an extremely limited amount of ASI, which need to be divided into Feats as well.
The system uses bounded accuracy, meaning each +1 is worth more than the previous +1.
The system encourages emphasizing Strengths than improving Weaknesses.

Basically...
15/14 is by far the optimal choice for standard +2/+1 Races.
Making it 16/16/14/10/10/8 (14/15/14 pre racial)

While your 16/14/14, which means 14/13/14 pre racial will just result in having 12/12/8 or 12/10/10 or 13/11/8
Those are pointless +1s to stuff you're bad at and likely won't be doing.
Those +1s are worth nearly nothing, and are a waste of points.

[DeanH]

I've edited the initial post to try to make it more readable.


Here's how I think about it;

"Low/Dump Stat" (8) - Free
"Average to Good Stat" (9-13) - Efficient
"Prime Stat" (14) - Gonna cost you 7
"Waste of Points" (15) - Your funeral

Choose Race. Choose a couple of "Prime Stats", usually one boosted by Race (to 16), the other not. Buy your +1 stat (or stats) to 13 because it's efficient. Spend the rest as you will. That way you get an array that looks a bit like 16,14,14, X, Y, Z. Usually good enough for any character.

Point buying a 15 (before racial mods) is just a waste; it's either impatient, overstating the importance of having a 16 at char gen, or poor character choices and/or planning. It leaves your character scraping for points in other areas because no character is truly SAD and it's not your strengths that kill you; it's your weaknesses and that 15 opens up too many weaknesses.

What you seem to be arguing against is 16 Con and 16 in a supplemental stat like Wis for a monk or Cha for a paladin. Granted, taking 14 instead of 16 lets you raise two lower stats by 2, giving +1's on a greater number of things, but even if these are common saves they don't necessarily benefit you more. Con affects Con saves and hit points, arguably a better combination than Wis and Dex saves, Perception, and initiative. Wis for a monk affects AC as well as Wis saves. Cha for a paladin adds to your aura, making up for lower stat bonuses to saves. Even 16 Dex on a caster is arguably worth more than +2's to Wis and one of Str/Int/Cha.

[JellyPooga]

Those +1s are worth nearly nothing, and are a waste of points.

And while my Wizard passed his Str save and isn't being eaten alive by giant spiders, yours is a corpse. *shrug* Call it a difference of playstyle if you like, but at the end of the day, your 16,16,14,10,10,8 has a total bonus of +7, while my 16,14,14,12,10,10 has +8 and while not a significant advantage, it is an advantage because every now and then (more frequently than I used to expect) you have to roll against something you didn't plan or build for and in those circumstances, every +1 counts.

[JBPuffin]

I rather have 15/14 with Racial giving me 16/16

You have an extremely limited amount of ASI, which need to be divided into Feats as well.
The system uses bounded accuracy, meaning each +1 is worth more than the previous +1.
The system encourages emphasizing Strengths than improving Weaknesses.

Basically...
15/14 is by far the optimal choice for standard +2/+1 Races.
Making it 16/16/14/10/10/8 (14/15/14 pre racial)

While your 16/14/14, which means 14/13/14 pre racial will just result in having 12/12/8 or 12/10/10 or 13/11/8
Those are pointless +1s to stuff you're bad at and likely won't be doing.
Those +1s are worth nearly nothing, and are a waste of points.

This is how I do things when I only have 27 points; I recently have adopted a 75 1-for-1 system (scores must total 75, min 8/max 16 before race mods), and even then I stick to the dual 16 idea. I just have more room to cover weaknesses - using VHuman, as I tend to do, I can go 15/15/14/13/10/8 and, depending on my feat choice, can make that 13 a 14 on top of things, which is super nifty. As a DM, this is my go-to Ability Score Point-Buy System.

[Talamare]

And while my Wizard passed his Str save and isn't being eaten alive by giant spiders, yours is a corpse. *shrug* Call it a difference of playstyle if you like, but at the end of the day, your 16,16,14,10,10,8 has a total bonus of +7, while my 16,14,14,12,10,10 has +8 and while not a significant advantage, it is an advantage because every now and then (more frequently than I used to expect) you have to roll against something you didn't plan or build for and in those circumstances, every +1 counts.

By that Logic
Play Human and get 14/14/14/14/14/11, and have a +10


And while my Wizard passed his Str save and isn't being eaten alive by giant spiders, yours is a corpse.

In this example, your Wizard BARELY succeeded his Strength Save in an Extremely Rare and Unlikely DO OR DIE situation?
In the mean time... My Wizard has had consistently higher success on DAILY checks that matter such as Con Checks to maintain my Concentration or Dex Checks to avoid taking damage.

[JellyPooga]

By that Logic
Play Human and get 14/14/14/14/14/11, and have a +10

I would have no qualms about playing such a character, have done and had a blast. I like playing non-humans too much to do it for every character and I like diversity; "14 Guy" is fun, but a little homogenous at times.

[OldTrees1]

I've edited the initial post to try to make it more readable.

So the first list is for +2/+1 races and for +1/+1/+1 races? What is a +1/+1/+1 race? What about +2/+1/+1 races? What about +2/+2 races? What about races where their +2 and +1 do not strictly align with primary and secondary attribute in that order? Some of this you handle with adjustment sentences but those have their own issues.

Pick your first 3 ability scores and then your last 3 ability scores. The lower your first 3, the higher your last 3.

15/15/15/ 08/08/08

15/15/14/ 10/08/08
15/15/14/ 09/09/08

15/15/13/ 12/08/08
15/15/13/ 11/09/08
15/15/13/ 10/10/08
15/15/13/ 10/09/09
15/14/14/ 12/08/08
15/14/14/ 11/09/08
15/14/14/ 10/10/08
15/14/14/ 10/09/09

15/15/12/ 12/09/08
15/15/12/ 11/10/08
15/15/12/ 11/09/09
15/15/12/ 10/10/09

15/15/11/ 11/11/08
15/15/11/ 11/10/09
15/15/11/ 10/10/10

15/14/13/ 13/09/08
15/14/13/ 12/10/08
15/14/13/ 12/09/09
15/14/13/ 11/11/08
15/14/13/ 11/10/09
15/14/13/ 10/10/10
14/14/14/ 13/09/08
14/14/14/ 12/10/08
14/14/14/ 12/09/09
14/14/14/ 11/11/08
14/14/14/ 11/10/09
14/14/14/ 10/10/10

15/14/12/ 12/11/08
15/14/12/ 12/10/09
15/14/12/ 11/11/09
15/14/12/ 11/10/10

15/14/11/ 11/11/10

15/13/13/ 13/11/08
15/13/13/ 13/10/09
15/13/13/ 12/12/08
15/13/13/ 12/11/09
15/13/13/ 12/10/10
15/13/13/ 11/11/10
14/14/13/ 13/11/08
14/14/13/ 13/10/09
14/14/13/ 12/12/08
14/14/13/ 12/11/09
14/14/13/ 12/10/10
14/14/13/ 11/11/10

15/13/12/ 12/12/09
15/13/12/ 12/11/10
15/13/12/ 11/11/11
14/14/12/ 12/12/09
14/14/12/ 12/11/10
14/14/12/ 11/11/11

15/12/12/ 12/12/10
15/12/12/ 12/11/11

14/13/13/ 13/13/08
14/13/13/ 13/12/09
14/13/13/ 13/11/10
14/13/13/ 12/12/10
14/13/13/ 12/11/11

14/13/12/ 12/12/11

14/12/12/ 12/12/12

13/13/13/ 13/13/10
13/13/13/ 13/12/11
13/13/13/ 12/12/12

[Eric Diaz]

I dislike point buy because of excessive complication; a fixed number of points to distribute would have been fine IMO.

HOWEVER....

I do think point buy is more BALANCED, since having +1 to Str will beat having +2 to Dex and Int to most Fighters, most of the time, for example. OTOH, some MAD classes will benefit from "balanced" builds.

You can wait until level 12 (for example) to get 20 in you main stat, and then your character might have flat-out BETTER abilities than another character that chose to start with a high ability score...

But this means you get an edge in the last 9 levels... while the other PC was "better" for the first 11 levels.

So it all depends on how much time you spend in each level.

[the secret fire]

Here's how I think about it;

"Low/Dump Stat" (8) - Free
"Average to Good Stat" (9-13) - Efficient
"Prime Stat" (14) - Gonna cost you 7
"Waste of Points" (15) - Your funeral

Choose Race. Choose a couple of "Prime Stats", usually one boosted by Race (to 16), the other not. Buy your +1 stat (or stats) to 13 because it's efficient. Spend the rest as you will. That way you get an array that looks a bit like 16,14,14, X, Y, Z. Usually good enough for any character.

Point buying a 15 (before racial mods) is just a waste; it's either impatient, overstating the importance of having a 16 at char gen, or poor character choices and/or planning. It leaves your character scraping for points in other areas because no character is truly SAD and it's not your strengths that kill you; it's your weaknesses and that 15 opens up too many weaknesses.

Buying a stat up to 15 for the +2 races can be an effective strategy if you plan to later on take one of the powerful feats which grant a +1 to the stat in question, raising it to an 18. This is specifically useful for some martial builds, with Resilient (Dex) or Elven Accuracy taken to raise the starting stat at 17 to the next modifier range.

But yeah, the most efficient use of points, stat-wise, is to just take a standard human, buy every stat but one up to 13, and end up with 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 11 as your starting stats. You're good at everything!

[DeanH]

So the first list is for +2/+1 races and for +1/+1/+1 races? What is a +1/+1/+1 race? What about +2/+1/+1 races? What about +2/+2 races? What about races where their +2 and +1 do not strictly align with primary and secondary attribute in that order? Some of this you handle with adjustment sentences but those have their own issues.


Triton is +1/+1/+1. I've edited it again to cut the list of possibilities down to even numbers with adjustment sentences for odd numbers. Hopefully, this is more readable.

[bid]

For general effectiveness, you want to start with 16 or 17 in your main stat and 14 or 16 in Con for hit points. One can take 15 or 17 in Con and later raise it with a feat like Resilience, but this leaves you with a wasted stat point for a significant part of your character's career, unless you're starting at a relatively high level. The exception is that a mountain dwarf may want to take 17's in Str and Con and raise both to 18 at the first ASI. You will want a 16 in your third stat if you're playing a class like monk or paladin or if it fits your character concept, such as a dexterous caster. Otherwise the third stat may be 11-14. Again, 15 is generally not an optimal choice.
No you don't.
That delay is a killer.
See, the only good reason to start odd.
Not really possible.


Ok, it's way simpler than that: you should always start 16 16 14 (10 or 12) 10 8 unless you really know what you are doing. And even then, you should think twice before taking another path.

If you pick RP concept over general effectiveness, you might start with 14 in your main stat though.

[Talamare]

15/15/15/8/8/8 for 2/1 Races is legit for some front line MAD classes

Using your 1st ASI to get +1/+1
That places you at 18/16/16/8/8/8

That could mean a Paladin have 18 Str/Cha, with 16 Alt and Con, same idea with Ranger
or a Barbarian having 18 Str with 16 Dex and Con for his Unarmored, same idea with Monk

Having 3 negatives are a nasty penalty, and gaining +1 to Con isn't necessarily a massive bonus.
So it's definitely a more 'difficult' build to play with, but still fairly legit.

[Mikal]

And while my Wizard passed his Str save and isn't being eaten alive by giant spiders, yours is a corpse.

Except your wizard had already died like theee times because your 14 caused you to fail that fireball dex save last week, and get hit by those pack tactic enemies the week before.

Your edge case of a single save or die is less impressive then the multiple things you fail much more often as they're more common.

[JellyPooga]

Except your wizard had already died like theee times because your 14 caused you to fail that fireball dex save last week, and get hit by those pack tactic enemies the week before.

Your edge case of a single save or die is less impressive then the multiple things you fail much more often as they're more common.

My point was that those edge cases come up more often than you think. At least in my experience. And somehow always end up being the biggest problem. Taking a small hit to a primary stat to bump secondaries or tertiaries has always paid off for me; I've literally sat and watched a parade of "optimal" characters die to things they didn't think would be that important or were statistically unlikely, while my character soldiers on through thick and thin because of his overall better stat line. Was luck a factor? Of course. Was playing cautiously a factor? Yes. At the end of the day, though, it's not the routine things that get you, it's the one offs and unlikely events.

[strangebloke]

My point was that those edge cases come up more often than you think. At least in my experience. And somehow always end up being the biggest problem. Taking a small hit to a primary stat to bump secondaries or tertiaries has always paid off for me; I've literally sat and watched a parade of "optimal" characters die to things they didn't think would be that important or were statistically unlikely, while my character soldiers on through thick and thin because of his overall better stat line. Was luck a factor? Of course. Was playing cautiously a factor? Yes. At the end of the day, though, it's not the routine things that get you, it's the one offs and unlikely events.
As a caster, you will use Dex literally every time you get attacked. Con will get used every time you get hit while concentrating on a spell. You'll use your casting stat every time you cast.

The net effect of a +1 is only apparent over many many rolls. Edge case stats like strength are worth less than primary stats.

If you want to play a different character, more power to you! Play a wizard with 14 strength. Do it! It is not optimal, but that's fine.

Caution and playstyle and smart usage of class features makes more difference than stats though.

[Eric Diaz]

Also relevant:

HALF your abilities are saves... but it is likely that HALF are dump stats.

But even saves will be used less often than "main" abilities... It all depends on MAD/SAD etc.

Let us see:

- It is probably safe to assume you can dump Str, Int, and Cha if your class isn't based around them.
- You can dump Dex if you're a Str fighter, but a little bump to initiative and saves might be marginally useful.
- Dumping Con is usually a bad idea.
- Dumping Wis is also dangerous.

With that said, I'd think 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 is better than most other options, depending on what you're going to do with ASIs, etc.

[strangebloke]

Also relevant:

HALF your abilities are saves... but it is likely that HALF are dump stats.

But even saves will be used less often than "main" abilities... It all depends on MAD/SAD etc.

Let us see:

- It is probably safe to assume you can dump Str, Int, and Cha if your class isn't based around them.
- You can dump Dex if you're a Str fighter, but a little bump to initiative and saves might be marginally useful.
- Dumping Con is usually a bad idea.
- Dumping Wis is also dangerous.

With that said, I'd think 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 is better than most other options, depending on what you're going to do with ASIs, etc.
Caveat: 15 15 15 8 8 8 is best for classes that benefit from three stats. That's the majority of the classes. All casters use three stats, and so does the monk.

However, a few classes are pretty much SAD. A hexblade doesn't benefit from DEX greater than 14, leaving him free to pump CON and CHA. An archer fighter or ranger has a d10 hit die and are proficient in CON throws, meaning that they have all the HP and concentration they need without pumping CON to ludicrous levels. Barbarians don't need to pump DEX and can frankly go reasonably light on CON as well (although why would you). Moon druids only use their physical stats for half of the encounters they're in, so they tend to not run out of HP very quickly.

[Eric Diaz]

Caveat: 15 15 15 8 8 8 is best for classes that benefit from three stats. That's the majority of the classes. All casters use three stats, and so does the monk.

However, a few classes are pretty much SAD. A hexblade doesn't benefit from DEX greater than 14, leaving him free to pump CON and CHA. An archer fighter or ranger has a d10 hit die and are proficient in CON throws, meaning that they have all the HP and concentration they need without pumping CON to ludicrous levels. Barbarians don't need to pump DEX and can frankly go reasonably light on CON as well (although why would you). Moon druids only use their physical stats for half of the encounters they're in, so they tend to not run out of HP very quickly.

Well, I agree, but then again, if you're a SAD class, you'd probably do the same, since you cannot start with anything better than 15. So as a barbarian/ranger/hexblade, it is unlikely that you'd pump, say, Int over some secondary or tertiary ability.

I am having a hard time to think of a class or character that would benefit from something like 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 or other combination that allows for the maximum number of ability points.

EDIT: unless you want some specific multi-classing, I guess.

[Talamare]

My point was that those edge cases come up more often than you think. At least in my experience. And somehow always end up being the biggest problem. Taking a small hit to a primary stat to bump secondaries or tertiaries has always paid off for me; I've literally sat and watched a parade of "optimal" characters die to things they didn't think would be that important or were statistically unlikely, while my character soldiers on through thick and thin because of his overall better stat line. Was luck a factor? Of course. Was playing cautiously a factor? Yes. At the end of the day, though, it's not the routine things that get you, it's the one offs and unlikely events.

If you seen a "Parade" of optimal characters, then I have seen a "Cornucopia" of unoptimal ones die
or a "Planet" of unoptimal ones
ooh oh what about a "Myriad"

Basically for every 1 Optimal Character that dies, an Unoptimal one would have died ten times as many times as the Optimal one has in the situations the Optimal has been put in.
So, if you say you saw 20 Optimal Character die, then 200 Unoptimal ones also died.


Well, I agree, but then again, if you're a SAD class, you'd probably do the same, since you cannot start with anything better than 15. So as a barbarian/ranger/hexblade, it is unlikely that you'd pump, say, Int over some secondary or tertiary ability.

I am having a hard time to think of a class or character that would benefit from something like 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 or other combination that allows for the maximum number of ability points.

EDIT: unless you want some specific multi-classing, I guess.
Non Combat Skill MC Bard
Basically that one build that MCs like 6x and picks up every single Skill
That's it

[JellyPooga]

As a caster, you will use Dex literally every time you get attacked. Con will get used every time you get hit while concentrating on a spell. You'll use your casting stat every time you cast.

The net effect of a +1 is only apparent over many many rolls. Edge case stats like strength are worth less than primary stats.

Statistically speaking, yes, those edge cases are the rarer and thus investing in them is strictly speaking an "unoptimal" choice; the stats involved are worth less than those stats that will come into play more frequently. However, the problem for the "optimal" character is that those edge cases always come up at one time or another. Regardless of the frequency of the common scenario, it's almost impossible to avoid the edge case completely, so when it does eventually come up (and it will), if you have a weakness it can be crippling, often deadly. The common case, on the other hand, is frequently relatively inconsequential. Take AC for example; I invest less in Dex and have one less AC. I get hit more often, I fail Dex saves more often...I take a little more damage than the guy that took a higher Dex, but that's not so bad because HP are easy to recover and I take little to no penalty for being low on them. On the other foot, because I took a hit to my "primary" Dexterity, I have a slightly higher (let's say, for the sake of argument) Strength than my "optimised" companion; I can carry a little more (having the right equipment can be the difference between life and death), I can run a little faster (in contested Athletics checks), swim a little better (drowning often puts a crimp on your day) and don't get caught in sticky webs so much (I've previously mentioned spiders...there's a reason I no longer dump Str; lost waaay too many characters to spiders and their webs and poison). Are these things going to come up every session? No. Are these things going to kill me if I fail? Frequently.


Caution and playstyle and smart usage of class features makes more difference than stats though.

Definitely.

[Citan]

Here's how I think about it;

"Low/Dump Stat" (8) - Free
"Average to Good Stat" (9-13) - Efficient
"Prime Stat" (14) - Gonna cost you 7
"Waste of Points" (15) - Your funeral

Choose Race. Choose a couple of "Prime Stats", usually one boosted by Race (to 16), the other not. Buy your +1 stat (or stats) to 13 because it's efficient. Spend the rest as you will. That way you get an array that looks a bit like 16,14,14, X, Y, Z. Usually good enough for any character.

Point buying a 15 (before racial mods) is just a waste; it's either impatient, overstating the importance of having a 16 at char gen, or poor character choices and/or planning. It leaves your character scraping for points in other areas because no character is truly SAD and it's not your strengths that kill you; it's your weaknesses and that 15 opens up too many weaknesses.
I disagree so much with you I don't even know where to start... XD

First, there are classes which benefit much more from a 16/16/14 with starting 14/15/14 than having just one stat at 16: for example, Monk (especially Open Hand and 4E), Paladin (all), Bladesinger (if you really want to benefit from the school at least).

Second, even for those classes that you could consider SAD (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc) managing to get a 16 in CON means a significant difference in HP, and is very important for maintaining concentration for casters as well as avoiding dangerous effects for melee.

Third, you get many class features that boost your saves in one or two abilities, as well as spells, so there are ways to start with blatant weakness and cover for them later.

Fourth, when you play a build that is hungry for feats or a multiclass, you'll spend a long time with those starting stats. So having an odd secondary stat may hurt.

Finally, what you say that "+1 is a waste because it won't make a difference" is kinda ridiculous, because the opposite could be argued as well: "having one less points in other stats won't make a difference".
True true return of investment of having either 12, 14 or 16 in "defensive stats" cannot be evaluated, *ever*, because it's far too variable depending on a mountain of factors (character build, party teamwork, campaign settings, DM playstyle, etc).
Plus D&d 5e is extremely swingy by design, so proficiencies and other abilities do much more to protect you than a +1-2 difference in stat.

Don't misunderstand me, I appreciate probably as well as you character builds that don't minmax 2 stats at the price of having several 8, and instead try to avoid any blatant weakness. It's in fact my usual approach for my own characters (I'd prefer a 16 14 14 10 10 8 over a 16 16 16 8 8 8 for many characters). :)
But saying that "pushing starting stats with a 15 is a waste" is, sorry for being blunt, plain stupid. There is just no way to theorycraft that, you have to go with your gut and wait 'till the end of your character's life to take a step back and check all past encounters to decide how much that +1 (or -1, or -2 actually if comparing a "888" to a "121010") did make a difference.

For example, I usually argue with people about Wizard's optimal starting stats, because many say it's better to have a 16 in CON and 14 in DEX than the reverse.
I usually disagree, but I understand their point: in my groups, we are usually too small and disbanded for others to cover a caster properly, so I usually get my share of attacks. I saw quite a few attacks being near-misses so I appreciated that starting +1 to AC.
If however I was confident that I'll usually won't be targeted for any reason, I'll certainly boost my Constitution to 16. If my role to party is mainly defensive/buff, I'll go to 17 even, because I'll take Resilient: Constitution later to ensure those Haste or Wall of Fire stick.
If however people counted on my debuffs, and I also had to be the spy of the party, I'd probably push the INT to 17 instead to pick Observant later, so I both have great INT early and be better than a Rogue at spying (Comprehend Languages + Invisibility/Levitate/Fly/Polymorph).

[Ogre Mage]

In general the first thing I ask myself is if my PC really wants to start with two 16's (after racial modifiers) or if I can get away with just one 16-17 and everything else 14 and less.

I never dump constitution, dexterity or wisdom under any circumstance. Even if wearing heavy armor, I always have a minimum Dexterity of 10. Wisdom is always at least 10. Constitution is never lower than 12 and I strongly prefer 14.

Strength, Intelligence and Charisma DO sometimes get dumped to 8, depending on the particular PC. I prefer to play casters, so Strength is the most likely candidate for dumping.

[OldTrees1]

Depending on racial adjustments I like these arrays
15+1/13+1/12+2/12/11/10
14+2/13+1/13+1/12/12/10
14+2/14/13+1/12/10/10
15+1/14/13+1/10/10/10