Innate Spell Question

[death390]

OK the feat Innate Spell seems like an amazing idea, the problem is the "Spell slot eight levels higher is permanenetly used to power it." meaning that pre-epic the ONLY spells applicable are 0 & 1st level spells. this also means that without cheese you have to wait until lvl 15 for the first 8th level slot [on a wizard/cleric] (or fast casting class, extra slot cheese, ect) to pick a spell level 0 spell. not to mention 3 feats as a tax (silent, still, quickened)

this all said what spells would possibly be good enough to use every round that you don't want to waste a normal spell on.

my only thoughts are
Chill touch (hit/lvl, str damage possible if low save, combine with superior unarmed strike for good damage on gish)
#3 Create Trap (heh stacking trigger locations, take x minutes to setup 60*X traps all triggered by same 5ft square, even better if can choose different traps to make [don't need 5 damage type])
Critical Strike (+1D6 dmg, double threat range, +4 confirm crit, swift action)
launch item? (fling alchemical items at targets)
#1 Silent image (good anyway, even better when used with shadowcraft mage, x10 better if used with gnome illusionist sub level where its lvl 0 spell AND you add heighten spell shenanigans to it before using innate spell on it)
Swift action spells (swift invisibilty, swift expedious retreat, ect)
#2 metamagic enhanced lvl 0 spell (as a lvl 1 spell) things like fell drain acid splash for example. (requires metamagic reducers)

so thoughts?

Choose a spell you can cast. You can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability, once per round, without needing to prepare it. One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it. (Note that spell slots above 9th level can be achieved with the rules in the upcoming Epic-Level Campaigns book.) If the innate spell has an XP component, you pay the XP cost each time you use the spell-like ability. If the innate spell has a focus, you do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate spell has a costly material component (see the spell description), you need an item worth 50 times that cost to use as the focus for the spell-like ability. If the innate spell has a material component with negligible cost, you do not need the material component to use the spell-like ability. Since an innate spell is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, - a cleric cannot convert it to a cure spell or an inflict spell, nor can , it be converted to a signature spell (see the Signature Spell feat). Divine spellcasters who become unable to cast divine spells cannot use divine innate spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Most of your spell picks do just fine on a wand without wasting four feats.
Frankly i don't think i'd spend a feat on Innate Spell even if it didn't have any prerequisites.
At level 15 you have more than enough 1st level spells, can afford any 1st level wands, scrolls or Pearls of Power you need or even a Ring of Wizardry if you really, really need more 1st level spells.

It's a sad fact that D&D drastically overvalues at-will abilities. It's also a sad fact that players drastically overvalue at will (or even x/day) items too.
I think it's mostly a comfort thing. "I'll always have X available" or something along those lines.
But unless your DM is the kind who never lets you rest and throws encounter after encounter at you all at-will abilities or items do for you is cost resources (feats, money, whatever) without giving you any benefit over consumables or limited abilities.

Another point is that the most valuable resource in D&D, especially at high levels, is actions. Unless your DM is seriously softballing you you can't really afford to spend combat spamming 1st level spells over your limited but more powerful abilities.

[weckar]

Here's the real thing: A Warlock dip basically gets you this for any spell you might actually care about. Without the prerequisites.

The ONLY place where it could be useful if there were a low level spell with an insanely expensive component that you would want to cast all the time (so that the x50 investment starts paying itself back quickly) or if such a spell requires materials not available in your setting for some reason (as the feat only indicates the value of the replacement focus).

Keep in mind that being an SLA, you are stuck using it without metamagic. So even if you WERE a stupidly specialised Force Missile Mage - you would not be able to use it to the extent you could the actual spell.

[BowStreetRunner]

This is the sort of feat that is very reliant upon the specifics of your build. When you start to bring into play prestige class abilities, alternative class features, etc. to create some synergy with this feat. For instance, I played a Sorcerer/Combat Medic (straight arcane caster) that was designed to eliminate the need for a cleric healer in the party. Having unlimited cure light wounds would mean between encounters fully recovering without needing to waste potions or spell slots. A build that centers around ray spells might benefit from at will True Strike enough to warrant this. I'm sure there are other builds that would benefit even more than the two ideas I just thought of.

What I am saying is that for a straight caster this is probably not as good as for the one who has some other ability that has synergy with this feat. So look for those special cases to find your best options.

[weckar]

This is the sort of feat that is very reliant upon the specifics of your build. When you start to bring into play prestige class abilities, alternative class features, etc. to create some synergy with this feat. For instance, I played a Sorcerer/Combat Medic (straight arcane caster) that was designed to eliminate the need for a cleric healer in the party. Having unlimited cure light wounds would mean between encounters fully recovering without needing to waste potions or spell slots. A build that centers around ray spells might benefit from at will True Strike enough to warrant this. I'm sure there are other builds that would benefit even more than the two ideas I just thought of.

What I am saying is that for a straight caster this is probably not as good as for the one who has some other ability that has synergy with this feat. So look for those special cases to find your best options.

At will True Strike? If it were a move or swift action, maybe. Or if you somehow get two standards.

[ayvango]

OK the feat Innate Spell seems like an amazing idea, the problem is the "Spell slot eight levels higher is permanenetly used to power it." meaning that pre-epic the ONLY spells applicable are 0 & 1st level spells.
With appropriate feats you could obtain 15th level slot and use it power really useful innate ability.

[weckar]

With appropriate feats you could obtain 15th level slot and use it power really useful innate ability.

With the feats that would require on top of this already tax heavy feat... You'd be reduced to a one-trick pony pretty fast.

[sleepyphoenixx]

At will True Strike? If it were a move or swift action, maybe. Or if you somehow get two standards.
I don't think i'd cast True Strike that much even if i had two standards. It's useful sometimes, fair enough, but "spend 4 feats on it" useful? I don't think so. Hitting ranged touch attacks isn't that hard most of the time.
Even then you can accomplish pretty much the same thing with a 750gp wand since True Strike doesn't need or benefit from CL or save DC's.


With appropriate feats you could obtain 15th level slot and use it power really useful innate ability.
Improved Spell Capacity is an epic feat. Even if you could get around that it also requires 9th level spells, so at the absolute earliest you'd get your innate spell at level 36 barring bonus feats.
If you don't have enough spell slots at level 36 you're doing something wrong.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Faustian Pact may allow to get 9th-level slot at any level

[Oracle71]

Didn't the Innate spell feat get updated to swap one spell slot for the ability to use a SLA (of the same spell level) 3/day? Or am I just imagining that I read that somewhere?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Didn't the Innate spell feat get updated to swap one spell slot for the ability to use a SLA (of the same spell level) 3/day? Or am I just imagining that I read that somewhere?

That's one of the abilities from the Archmage PrC.

[ShurikVch]

Didn't the Innate spell feat get updated to swap one spell slot for the ability to use a SLA (of the same spell level) 3/day? Or am I just imagining that I read that somewhere?You read it in the PGF; unfortunately, CArc is newer...

[Oracle71]

Thanks. It's nice to know I wasn't imagining it. Too bad it wasn't the most recent version. The PGF version would seem to be a bit more useful to me.

[death390]

using earth spell, heighten spell, and metamagic reducers you could get 9th lvl spell with extra spell slot feat (i would use a couple extra spell feats rather than excess reducers) but cant get past 9 before lvl 21. thats why i limited it to lvl 0-1 since 9ths are easy enough to get even if we wait. i agree that blaster spells don't work well with this (reserve feats are straight better) thats why i was looking for low level spells (if only it was counted as a metamagic and subject to reducer :/ )

[ayvango]

Earth spell could increase spell level higher then 9lvl cap.

[death390]

Earth spell only adds +1 spell level to a heightened spell. meaning that Heighten spell lvl 9 (its normal Cap) +1 = spell level 10 this is a commonly used trick with shadowcraft mage.

Extra slot gives you 1 spell slot 1 level lower than the highest level spell you can cast IE the highest level spell slot you can get pre-epic is lvl 9. AND you cant Heighten that one pre-epic because lvl 9 is the highest level it works to.

IE the HIGHEST LEVEL SPELL SLOT you can GET is 9 PRE-EPIC. which only works on a lvl 1 innate spell.

IE before lvl 21 you can't use innate spell for any spell higher than lvl 1 (barring it being low level on another list like arcane sight is lvl 1 trapsmith)

[Vaern]

If you pick a good spell, I can see being able to use even a cantrip or a 1st level spell at will being an extremely useful resource to have available. But besides the obvious prerequisite and sacrifice for taking the feat, the major problem that I see is that you can accomplish the same effect with pocket change.
By the time you even have the 8th or 9th level spell slot to sacrifice, even if you only have a fraction of standard wealth by level, the cost of a wondrous item that will let you cast a cantrip or a 1st level spell at will should be practically negligible. Rather than sinking four feats to have a single at-will cantrip by level 15, you can instead invest a single feat into Craft Wondrous Item at level 3, at which point you may already have enough gold saved up to craft multiple items that can effectively cast a cantrip at will.

[Hellpyre]

Earth spell only adds +1 spell level to a heightened spell. meaning that Heighten spell lvl 9 (its normal Cap) +1 = spell level 10 this is a commonly used trick with shadowcraft mage.


Sanctum Spell also allows for +1 to spell level, which combined with Earth Spell lets you pick up higher level slots (in a strictly TO sense, of course).

[death390]

Sanctum Spell also allows for +1 to spell level, which combined with Earth Spell lets you pick up higher level slots (in a strictly TO sense, of course).

i had completly forgotten about sanctum spell. it is so much easier to use than earth spell. again we have the issue of massive feat tax just to get the 10th level slots (8->9+2 = 11=10th lvl slot,). as said by Vern a at will magic item is easier.

though now that i think of it, this convoluted setup could work for a E6 campaign (since feats are just xp swapped for feats)

how many feats would this take to get the first 9th level spell

Heighten spell, Sanctum Spell
earth sense, earth spell, easy metamagic (heighten) (= Heighten +3 from slot used)
extra slot (2-5, 4th lvl slot) extra slot (4-7, 6th lvl slot), extra slot (6-9= 8th lvl slot), extra slot(8-9+2=10th lvl slot)
9 feats (less if starting extra slot at higher spell level, it gets 2 higher slot per feat)

silent spell, still spell, quicken spell, innate spell. 4 feats

total of 13 feats to get a 2nd level spell at will.

[Forrestfire]

Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell don't give you higher-level slots. They increase the spell's level at the time of casting, not preparation, so they don't work here.

If we're cheesing this out anyway, instead use the siphon spell from Complete Scoundrel combined with Versatile Spellcaster. Getting all the way up to 9ths is exorbitantly expensive, but perhaps doable. You also need to be a prepared caster who can also cast spontaneously, in order for this to work.

For how this works:


Use Versatile Spellcaster to cast two 4th-level spells.
Use (or UMD) a pair of wands. In particular, the you need to cast the siphon spell. When you do, he burns 5 charges off of a wand that has a 4th-level spell... and in doing so, regains a 4th-level spell he has cast today as a prepared spell.
Do this twice, netting you two 4th-level spells prepared, then use Versatile Spellcaster to chain it up to a single 5th-level spell.


Because siphon cares about spells you've cast today, not about slots you've used today, you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a higher-level spell, then regain that spell as a prepared spell by burning through spell trigger charges. Then, repeat. In order to bootstrap your way up to 9ths, you will need staves of each spell level up to 9th. In order to go past 9th, you'll need to use siphon many, many times during the crafting of a staff of 10th, 11th, or 12th-level spells (since you have to cast the spell during each day of crafting), then use that staff to build your spell slot level up further. Or, I suppose, get a supernatural wish and just wish for such staves.

It's a very unfeasible path for anyone not abusing infinite wealth shenanigans, though.

[Hellpyre]

Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell don't give you higher-level slots. They increase the spell's level at the time of casting, not preparation, so they don't work here.

The idea, as I recall, is that they allow you cast a spell of a higher level than usual. Then you take the Extra Slot feat, which checks the highest level spell you can cast, not your highest level spell slot. Again, it really is all pretty far into TO, but the slots themselves aren't coming from the metamagic feats. They just open up the other feat to being broken.

[death390]

The idea, as I recall, is that they allow you cast a spell of a higher level than usual. Then you take the Extra Slot feat, which checks the highest level spell you can cast, not your highest level spell slot. Again, it really is all pretty far into TO, but the slots themselves aren't coming from the metamagic feats. They just open up the other feat to being broken.

that is correct. there are other ways to trip the mechanic without spending exorbitant feat slots on metamagic reducers though. DMM (for divine), undead battery (for Cha classes who can use summon undead), metamagic song (for bards), Metaphysical spell shaper (ability score burn, negate with strongheart vest/ bind Nebrious), spelldancer (especially if undead with Con -), tainted sorc (con damage, use with MSS tricks), illuman Nahoon sigil (2/day DMM).

technically could get into Metaphysical spell shaper as soon as lvl 3, then dump stat burn for 9th lvl heighten + sanctum for 9th level slot by 6th level. but i was trying to stay out of TO, just E6 PA for a crappy feat.

[ShurikVch]

Dragonwrought Kobold may take Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) pre-[epic]... :smallwink:

[death390]

Dragonwrought Kobold may take Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) pre-[epic]... :smallwink:

how? i dont see anyway except maybe being considered a dragon?

[ShurikVch]

how? i dont see anyway except maybe being considered a dragon?By the well-known cheese:
EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher.
Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels.While most of [epic] feats have sky-high skill ranks or BAB requirements, ISC asks only "Ability to cast spells of the normal maximum spell level in at least one spellcasting class."
Thus, Ur-Priest may qualify at what - 15th level?

[Jack_Simth]

With the feats that would require on top of this already tax heavy feat... You'd be reduced to a one-trick pony pretty fast.
Yes, but if that one trick is "Miracle at will" you're not exactly hurting (and yes, there's a way to do that before 20th that makes use of Innate Spell).

[death390]

please do elaborate on how. i can only see how to get 2nd level spells (baring dragonwrought kobold) any Epic feat that would enable that is limited to well aged dragons and lvl 21 characters.

[Jack_Simth]

please do elaborate on how. i can only see how to get 2nd level spells (baring dragonwrought kobold) any Epic feat that would enable that is limited to well aged dragons and lvl 21 characters.

It will use up basically all of your build resources, but:Circle Magic, Red Wizard, DMG page 193. It's got the option of Heightening a spell to 20th (you can stop at 18th, though); you can be a circle leader at 10th. Extra Slot then gets you a 17th+ level slot, and you can take Extra Slot at 12th. If you've got the requirement feats by then (and as a Wizard, you can), you can take Innate Spell at 15th for any 9th you'd like. Arcane Disciple(Luck) gets you Miracle on your list.

[death390]

interesting, i read that more as you could add the feats to thier maxim, so 9th lvl spell + maximize + empower, but that would only = 15? (9+4+2). so Heighten must be able to go above its normal maxim of level 9. hmm, this trick would be difficult to pull off since it requires at least 3 people, not to mention 11 spell levels on a 9th level spell to hit the max of 20 (19th lvl slot lol, at will extended time stop anyone?).

neat trick, be a pain to actually use though.

[Crake]

i had completly forgotten about sanctum spell. it is so much easier to use than earth spell. again we have the issue of massive feat tax just to get the 10th level slots (8->9+2 = 11=10th lvl slot,). as said by Vern a at will magic item is easier.

though now that i think of it, this convoluted setup could work for a E6 campaign (since feats are just xp swapped for feats)

how many feats would this take to get the first 9th level spell

Heighten spell, Sanctum Spell
earth sense, earth spell, easy metamagic (heighten) (= Heighten +3 from slot used)
extra slot (2-5, 4th lvl slot) extra slot (4-7, 6th lvl slot), extra slot (6-9= 8th lvl slot), extra slot(8-9+2=10th lvl slot)
9 feats (less if starting extra slot at higher spell level, it gets 2 higher slot per feat)

silent spell, still spell, quicken spell, innate spell. 4 feats

total of 13 feats to get a 2nd level spell at will.

If you use the dark chaos shuffle, you can leap frog the feats, meaning you use one feat to get say, an 11th level spell slot, then use a second feat to get a 13th level slot, then use the dark chaos shuffle to change the first feat from an 11th level slot into a 15th level slot. With that you can go as high as you like honestly, with only 2 feats. Once you get as abritrarily high as you want, you can shuffle out the extra feat, since with just sanctum spell the feat qualifies itself without issue. so ultimately you' can have as abritrarily high a spell slot as you want, allowing you to pile on metamagic onto your innate spell as much as you like. Persisted, extended, quickened, invisible, maximized, empowered miracle at will anyone?

[Jack_Simth]

interesting, i read that more as you could add the feats to thier maxim, so 9th lvl spell + maximize + empower, but that would only = 15? (9+4+2). so Heighten must be able to go above its normal maxim of level 9. hmm, this trick would be difficult to pull off since it requires at least 3 people, not to mention 11 spell levels on a 9th level spell to hit the max of 20 (19th lvl slot lol, at will extended time stop anyone?).

neat trick, be a pain to actually use though.

The specific clause is:

Add Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or Heighten Spell metamagic feats to spells currently prepared by the circle leader. Each circle bonus level counts as one additional spell level required by the application of a metamagic feat to a spell. The circle leader may add one of the three listed feats to a spell even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader’s normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th)(Emphasis added)

Heighten spell is the only one of those that actually raises spell level, and it explicitly can take things over the max. Leadership or Simulacrum (of yourself) can get you the donated spell slots, as can hiring spellcasting services.

[death390]

hmm tattoo focus, silent/still/quicken spell to get the red wizard pre-reqs. extra spell for non wizards (or just buy a scroll as a wizard/archivist) for simulcarum. make 2 @ 1,000 xp each. the simulcarums drop a 5th lvl spell each in the circle. then extra slot to get a 14th lvl slot. again for lvl 19 slot. lastly innate spell

yeah that could easily be done. i always forget simulcarum.

[Falontani]

congratulations on breaking Innate Spell in a different unique way; now as for spells
Fell Drain Thunderhead would be fun

[atemu1234]

Note: Faustian Pact may allow to get 9th-level slot at any level

Also Note: Any plan which involves selling any portion of your soul (complete or partial), or making a pact with an outsider, alignment notwithstanding, is pretty much always going to be considered cheesy.


please do elaborate on how. i can only see how to get 2nd level spells (baring dragonwrought kobold) any Epic feat that would enable that is limited to well aged dragons and lvl 21 characters.

Please do NOT elaborate on this, as I have no desire to see another emergent thread fed to a ceaseless flame war which puts the blood wars of the fiends to shame.

[Necroticplague]

IE the HIGHEST LEVEL SPELL SLOT you can GET is 9 PRE-EPIC. which only works on a lvl 1 innate spell.

Incorrect. Circle Magic lets you cast a 20th level spell. The Extra Slot feat can give you, well, another spell slot, of one lower than the highest you can cast. Thus, for two feats, you can have a 19th level spell slot. Innate Spell then, can be used for any spell. Used that trick for Heightened Silent Image before (SCM build, obviously. Ate up feats like mad, though).

EDIT: crap, missed that other people made this same point already.