Building a glass cannon, nova-based gish

[lr-hr-rh]

I'm trying to figure out the specs for a gish with the best nova potential, given a few constraints. These are:

-Needs to come on line (i.e. start dishing out "epic" damage) around level 12 at the latest.
-Using point buy
-Defence and survivability is not a *major* concern. What this means is that, for example, if Paladin is considered a good multiclass option for Divine Smite I'd be perfectly happy just going to 2 instead of 6 for the Aura. This is all within reason however; if a build I or anyone else suggests dishes it out great on paper but probably wouldn't last 2-3 turns against a smart and/or powerful BBEG due to terrible AC/saves/etc. then it probably fails due to being unable to deal the damage it was made for.
-Focus on ability to act independently. This means I'd rather it have its own way to generate advantage, extra attacks and so on (rather than having another party member cast Haste on them, or Darkness so they can have advantage on free concentration for something else, etc).
-No coffeelocks
-No UA (but can draw from any of the other source books)

I've not got a really concrete idea at the moment, just a lot of options that look promising (SADness with Hexblade, EA for triple advantage + GWM, quickened spell for EB as a bonus action, etc.) and no real grasp of how to fit them all in, so this post is pretty stream of conscious of the things I've considered.

For most of the builds I've been considering Hexblade as ideal since it reduces MADness (although you still need 13 Strength to multiclass in/out of Paladin). Going Paladin for smiting means Cha is at least somewhat important so I figure for this sort of build focussing on Cha-based classes is probably a good path to stick to. I've been toying with some combination of Hexblade/Paladin/Sorcerer.

Hexblade 1 gets you Cha on your attacks but only on one weapon that doesn't have the heavy property (which rules out using it for GWM). So you probably wanna go 3 for Pact of the Blade. You can also take this to 5 to get extra attack through an invocation. Definitely taking agonizing blast. Eldritch smite looks promising but you're only likely to have 2, 3rd level warlock slots (for 4d8 and a potential proning from each one) and you've gotta take Thirsting Blade which means no devil's sight if you wanted to use darkness for advantage. There are other ways to get it (advantage, both with and without darkness) but it still might be worth considering whether the tradeoff of potentially limited utility for the extra burst damage is worth it, depending on how things fall elsewhere.

Paladin needs to be taken to minimum 2 to get Divine smite, minimum 5 to get extra attack (which might be worth it if there's a particularly optimal Channel Divinity to grab) but if you're at 5 you might as well go to 6 for Aura of Protection (which goes against the "glass cannon" theme so I wouldn't say it's necessary but since you're Cha will likely end up around +4/+5 it should at least be considered as a tool for some level of self-preservation). Given Hexblade 3 and Paladin 2 are both necessary for a GWM build you're losing at least 1 more level of full-caster progression if you grab extra attack from Paladin, but there might be a channel divinity that makes it worth it.

I'm thinking Sorcerer for the full caster progression, just cause metamagic is cool and quicken spell gives you more options for damage dealing on your bonus action. Shadow gives you the hound for enemy disadvantage on your saves, potentially allowing you to skip Heightened and pick something else as your second metamagic, if either concern is relevant.

Concentration:
Obviously wanna pick something to focus on that will help maximise damage output. Greater Invisibility is good but on the Cha builds it probably won't come online until level 14 or so when you get your 4th level spell slots as a Sorcerer. I'm not sure if it's worth going a few levels further into Hexblade to get those earlier. Haste might also be a good option but dropping concentration on it might f*** you a bit, and you might have a harder time holding concentration as a glass cannon that's always in melee. Darkness is also a good earlier option for giving yourself advantage, although it also takes your concentration.

Shadow blade is a pretty awesome spell for certain builds but isn't really useful for any Hexblade based one given you can't make it your pact weapon (and therefore have to use Str or Dex for your attacks). It's not heavy so it doesn't really sync with GWM either.

Hex or hunter's mark might be useful ways to add damage but I'm not sure if/when that damage is likely to become enough to outweigh the advantages of advantage.

Advantage
A way to generate at will advantage is probably a must for GWM builds, especially since it lets you take advantage (hah) of elven accuracy, which is great for mitigating that -5. Darkness is one option, and you can grab devil's sight to give yourself advantage in it (but depending on your warlock progression that probably means missing out on Eldritch smite) or go Shadow Sorcerer to see through your own darkness (at the cost of a not insignificant amount of your sp pool). Shadow Blade gives you advantage on attacks made in darkness but it can't be your own (since darkness and shadow blade are both concentration) so it might be fairly situational.

Other builds might dip Barbarian for Reckless attack or maybe? Samurai for Fighting Spirit (at the cost of your bonus action though and it has limited uses). Maybe dip Rogue for Swashbuckler or go for some Find Familiar synchrony with Help. I'm not familiar enough with the intricacies of the mechanics to know how viable a build based around proning enemies for melee advantage is. If you go Paladin maybe Oath of Vengeance for Vow of Enmity is a good idea in a pinch (for a free one off source of advantage on the major villain of the day)?

Bonus actions
Quickened eldritch blast seems a good (albeit potentially expensive in the long run) use for your bonus action.

Two weapon fighting with your Shadow Blade might be a good option if you can add your modifier to your offhand attack.

PAM synchronizes well with GWM and gives you extra attack options both in a free bonus action attack and a more reliable use of your reaction, but depending on how you build your character you might only get 4 feats/ASIs, and the fourth only around level 19. Trying to squeeze elven accuracy, PAM and GWM into a build that comes online at a decent level seems tough, and it means you're probably having to live with a lower save DC and attack modifier (although the former might not be an issue if you focus your casting on buffs). You could go variant human for an extra feat but then you can't get elven accuracy :/

Going Divine Soul Sorcerer and grabbing Spiritual weapon for concentration free bonus action attacks might also be a good idea.

Spells
I honestly don't know the spell lists well enough to know what spells are best to take. So if you're suggesting a build and know some good spells that might go with it do please suggest them (keeping in mind what spell slots you might be likely to have available when the build comes on line).

Races
So far I'm thinking either V. Human (to grab GWM or PAM early) or Half-Elf. The extra feat might be great in some cases, but for Cha builds you're starting at a max 16 instead of the Half elf's 17. Half elfs can also get elven accuracy for trivantage and to bump their Cha to 18. Non-cha builds will obviously have different racial considerations though.

So far I'm thinking Paladin 2/Hexblade 5/Shadow Sorcerer 13. Maybe start in Hexblade to race to extra attack, but I haven't looked at Paladin vs. Warlock starting proficiencies and saves, which might make a difference.
Going Half-elf and looking at the build by level 12, I grab Elven accuracy @ 4 and GWM @ 11 (yikes...).
Stats are something along the lines of 13 10 16 10 9 18. For spell slots there are 6 1st, 3 2nd, 4 3rd (two of those are Warlock and regen on a short rest) and 5 sp.
Running through a short combat trial and looking at damages dealt:

Turn 1:
Bonus: quicken cast darkness (-4sp) --> not 100% on whether you can quicken the casting if you use spell points for it
Action: 2 attacks, with trivantage and GWM for: 4d6 + 20 + 8 + 4d8 (eldritch smite w/ 3rd level slot) + 4d8 (divine smite w/ 3rd level slot)

Turn 2:
Action: attack same as above
Bonus: burn 3rd level slot for 3sp

Turn 3:
Action: attack same as above (except using sorcerer 3rd level slot for divine smite to replace eldritch smite)
Bonus: quicken EB 3d10 + 12 (-2sp) --> not sure if agonizing adds your CHA to each beam or just one.

So by turn 4 we've dealt 12d6 + 60 + 24 + 24d8 + 3d10 + 12 points of damage and have: 6 1st and 3 2nd level slots and 2 sp left. Could also throw Hexblade's curse on there at some point to add +4 to attacks and get expanded crit range. Seems to be looking promising so far, but I'm interested to see what any others can come with. To add to it or to suggest something completely different.

[BobZan]

Hexblade 5/Pal 2/Divine Soul X. Smite them all.

Point buy - 8 13 15 8 12 15
Helf - 8 14 16 8 12 17

ASIs: EA, Cha.

Or
Basic Array - 8 14 13 10 12 15
V. Human - 8 14 14 10 12 16
Feat: PAM

ASIs: Cha, GWM.

[Vorpalchicken]

For pure nova, how about a Fighter 2, Fiend Pact Warlock 10?

Open with Mental Prison (maybe you've got a Rod of the Pact Keeper too for a really high Int save DC) 5d10 psychic

Action Surge

Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast, Triggering the Prison (up to) 4d10+20 Force and 10d10 Psychic

Hurl Through Hell 10d10 Psychic

If it's a one on one, while he or she's gone, ready an action to smack him again upon their return. Maybe EB off a cliff?

edit. Whoops Hurl Through Hell is level 14 not 10.

edit. Only 3 EB beams too. Shouldn't have skipped my coffee today. Well it will be really nice in a couple levels. Crown of Stars maybe too.

[Quoz]

A bit off from your direction, but if you're looking to nova hard and burn through spell slots nothing beats a smitebear.

Paladin 2/Druid (Moon) X
If you get prep time precast Longstrider, Jump, and bless.

Transform into whatever wild shape is most appropriate, then smite smite smite. You are only one level off from a full caster's slots, and should have a multiattack that can smite 2-3 times per round.

your concentration spell is generally going to be best off as bless or a druid conjure spell. If you don't think you need the bonus on attack, divine favor bumps your damage and adds radiant. Single target gets fairy fire for advantage or wrathful smite to grant the frightened condition.

not a standard Gish, but a solid melee combatant that can lay out one heck of a beating using spell slots for direct damage. Since most of your stats won't matter in beast shape, you can have more fun with your feat selection too. Lucky, Alert, Mobile, ect.

[DivisibleByZero]

Pure Nova?
Fighter 2 for Action Surge and Dueling
Paladin 2 for Divine Smite
Hexbladelock 5 for Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Eldritch Smite
Sorcerer (the rest = 11) for SCAG cantrip(s), Quicken, and more slots.
And it's basically SAD.

Just with a regular, nothing special, d8 weapon:
Bonus action Quicken cantrip, 1d8+5+2+3d8 [4d8+7] -- add another 4d8 with BB if they move
Action: Attack (x2): (1d8+5+2, eldritch smite +4d8, divine smite +5d8)*2 [20d8+14]
Surge: attack (x2): (1d8+5+2, divine smite +5d8)*2 [12d8+14]
For a potential total of 36d8+35= average 197 if all hit (plus the other 4d8 from BB if they move, raising it to >200)
There's your nova.

At level 12, you have that with only 3 Sorc levels. But 3 is enough to make it functional.

edit:
Oh, I forgot about Shadow Blade and Hold. Those numbers should go way up....
Let's use a 3rd level slot on SB, so it's actually:
Bonus action Quicken cantrip, 3d8+5+2+3d8 [6d8+7] -- add another 4d8 with BB if they move
Action: Attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, eldritch smite +4d8, divine smite +5d8)*2 [24d8+14]
Surge: attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, divine smite +5d8)*2 [16d8+14]
For a potential total of 46d8+35= average 242 if all hit (plus the other 4d8 from BB if they move)
And that's without Hold. With Hold, it's 92d8+35= ~449

[strangebloke]

Half-orc
Paladin 2
Draconic Sorcerer 8
Before racials: 15/8/15/8/8/15
After racials/ASIs: 18/8/16/8/8/18

Cast Shadow Blade with a fifth level slot before combat. Use Font of Magic to get two more fifth level slots. First round of combat, quicken hold person with a 3rd level slot, grabbing two adjacent enemies. Let's say they both fail. Run in, twin GFB to hit both targets twice. You have advantage so you should hit and crit. Smite both of them with a fifth level spell.

9d8 (shadow blade) + 4 (STR) + 12d8 (smite) + 4d8 (primary hit of GFB) + 2d8 + 4 (secondary hit of GFB) + 4 (CHA to fire damage, only applies to one target.) + 2 (dueling
=27d8 + 14
=135.5 damage to one target and 131.5 damage to a second.

A sorcerer has roughly 43 SP worth of spells and SP at this level. In this round, the sorcerer has used:
3 level 5 spells. (17 SP equivalent, since you created two of those slots with font of magic)
1 level 3 spell (hold person)
3 sp (twin, quicken)

That's the equivalent of 23 SP, a little over half your resources per long rest.

JC says that you can't twin GFB, which is a little inconsistent IMO, but if you can't twin it, you can instead pick up empower, which boosts your damage by an amount that I don't care to calculate, but is usually somewhere around .5 per die. This gives you:

9d8 (shadow blade) + 4 (STR) + 12d8 (smite) + 4d8 (primary hit of GFB) + 4 (CHA to fire damage) + 2 (dueling)
=25d8 + 10 + 6.5(empower on shadow blade and GFB)
=129 damage to one target and 13 damage to a second.

In this case, you'll have used:
2 level 5 spells. (11 SP equivalent, since you created 1 of those slots with font of magic)
1 level 2 spell (hold person)
5 sp (quicken, empower*3)

That's 17 SP, for something like 4/9's of your resources.

Bugbear is actually strictly better than half-orc come to think of it. You get an extra 14 damage from the ambush ability, as opposed to the measly 4.5 you get from half-orc. Scourge Aasimar gives you 10 damage. Eh. I don't like the Volo's races and I don'town that book.

I am of course ignoring magic items, poisons, and potions, as well as things like the grave cleric's "marked for death" ability and other combo spells (like contagion). I assume that the hold person sticks, but if you assume that every attack is a crit (seems excessively white-roomy) or have an ally cast hold person you could get more damage out of this by quickening and twinning GFB again. I'm pretty sure this is close to optimal within those restrictions, especially considering that you limited it to level 10.

EDIT: It's probably worthwhile to switch out two levels of sorcerer for two levels of fighter. With bugbear that gives you:

4d6 (ambush) + 6d8 (shadow blade) + 4 (STR) + 10d8 (smite) + 5d8 (primary hit of GFB) + 3d8 + 4 (secondary hit of GFB) + 4 (CHA to fire damage, only applies to one target.) + 2 (dueling)
=(4d6 + 25d8 + 14) * 2
=254 damage to one target and 246 damage to a second.

For resources that's
4 level 4 spells (19 SP, since 3 are created with font of magic)
2 level 3 spells (6 SP)
4 SP (Twin*2, quicken)
For 29/29 resources. You literally have to use every spell to achieve this.

[strangebloke]

TBH If I was running a real build I'd go:

Vhuman, Paladin 2, Draconic Sorcerer X. Pick up on PAM or something.

Miss out on some damage, but you don't turn into a one-round wonder.

[polymphus]

I feel like Multiclassing is just gonna complicate things

The best straight-nova gish in the game, if you don't care about defence, is 100% the Vengeance Paladin. VHuman for GWM, take a greatsword, pump Str. You're online by lvl3 (Vow of Emnity), really online by lvl9 (Haste) and a god amongst men at single-target nova by lvl 15 (Soul of Vengeance).

With a greatsword, divine smite and a searing smite, that's:

5d8 + 5d6 fire + 4d6 Slashing + 2 x Strength + 20 + Advantage.

Huge cost in terms of resources (both 5th-level spell slots and a Channel Divinity) but a paladin in the campaign I DMd would come out the gate swinging like this and bosses would be toast. Within a single round, all but the toughest bosses would be below half health.

Chuck Soul of Vengeance and Haste on top of that, you've got a potential single-turn damage of 5d8 + 13d6 + 4x strength mod + 40 for a possible max of 178 or 296 on a crit, rolling at advantage. Without critting, that's enough to 1-shot an Adult Brass Dragon or even a Lich. Assuming an incredible 4-crit hotstreak, you could down Acererak in a single round of combat.

At lvl12, you're gonna be using third-level slots for both of those smites so that's 3d8 radiant + 3d6 fire + 6d6 slashing + 3 x Str mod + 30 for a max of 114 or 183 on a crit, averaging in the 80s and it's only upwards from there.

[Citan]

Pure Nova?
Fighter 2 for Action Surge and Dueling
Paladin 2 for Divine Smite
Hexbladelock 5 for Thirsting Blade (extra attack) and Eldritch Smite
Sorcerer (the rest = 11) for SCAG cantrip(s), Quicken, and more slots.
And it's basically SAD.

Just with a regular, nothing special, d8 weapon:
Bonus action Quicken cantrip, 1d8+5+2+3d8 [4d8+7] -- add another 4d8 with BB if they move
Action: Attack (x2): (1d8+5+2, eldritch smite +4d8, divine smite +5d8)*2 [20d8+14]
Surge: attack (x2): (1d8+5+2, divine smite +5d8)*2 [12d8+14]
For a potential total of 36d8+35= average 197 if all hit (plus the other 4d8 from BB if they move, raising it to >200)
There's your nova.

At level 12, you have that with only 3 Sorc levels. But 3 is enough to make it functional.

edit:
Oh, I forgot about Shadow Blade and Hold. Those numbers should go way up....
Let's use a 3rd level slot on SB, so it's actually:
Bonus action Quicken cantrip, 3d8+5+2+3d8 [6d8+7] -- add another 4d8 with BB if they move
Action: Attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, eldritch smite +4d8, divine smite +5d8)*2 [24d8+14]
Surge: attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, divine smite +5d8)*2 [16d8+14]
For a potential total of 46d8+35= average 242 if all hit (plus the other 4d8 from BB if they move)
And that's without Hold. With Hold, it's 92d8+35= ~449
This is what I'd suggest two with minor changes.

- At low level, I'd use Action Surge Heightened Hold Person then cantrip + quickened cantrip.
Fighter 2 + Sorcerer 3.
- At mid-level, I'd use Quickened Haste or Hold Person depending on the context then either either aim for smite+cantrip or lots of attacks (so either Paladin 2 / Warlock 3 added, or plain Warlock 5).
At high-level, I'd aim towards a 3rd level in either...
- Devotion Paladin: another +5 to hit against everyone, but takes an action so basically tied with Action Surge, for the fights in which you actually don't want to nova but instead sustain.
- Battlemaster 3: Precision Attack and Tripping Attack will greatly pump your real nova damage, without hurting your action economy.
Then I'd choose whether to get bigger spells to be versatile or rack up on short-rest high slots.
I'd personally aim towards Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 7 / Fighter 3 / Paladin 2 if I wanted to maximize nova potential. :)

[Jack Bitters]

edit:
Oh, I forgot about Shadow Blade and Hold. Those numbers should go way up....
Let's use a 3rd level slot on SB, so it's actually:
Bonus action Quicken cantrip, 3d8+5+2+3d8 [6d8+7] -- add another 4d8 with BB if they move
Action: Attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, eldritch smite +4d8, divine smite +5d8)*2 [24d8+14]
Surge: attack (x2): (3d8+5+2, divine smite +5d8)*2 [16d8+14]
For a potential total of 46d8+35= average 242 if all hit (plus the other 4d8 from BB if they move)
And that's without Hold. With Hold, it's 92d8+35= ~449

You can't use Hold Person and Shadow Blade at the same time as they are both concentration. If you're getting help, then sure.

----------Edit: Build

Here's a niche nova build. Gloomstalker ranger 5/sorcerer 3/fighter 2/paladin 2. You only get 1 ASI so put it in strength. On your first turn when you action surge you get 6 attacks. Weapon options are shadow blade and greatsword. Dueling fighting style and Great Weapon Fighting style. Ability scores start at 15/13/11/8/13/13. One ASI and standard human get 18/14/9/12/14/14. In the interest of being a glass cannon I've left Con with a negative modifier.

1) If you cast Shadow Blade using a 3rd level slot, you have just enough spell points/slots to make 4 level 3 smites and 2 level 2 smites.
22d8 of smite + 2d8 gloomstalker + 18d8 shadow blade + 36 flat = 225 damage. And you have advantage if attacking in the dark or dim light.
2) If you quicken a Hold Person spell, you can smite 4 times with 3rd level slots and twice with second level slots. Using a greatsword (no GWM), damage is 24d6+44d8+4d8+24 = 324. If you find a way to gain advantage/a magic +3 greatsword, and use GWM, increase damage by 60. I don't recommend this.

Note that this nova must be done on the first turn to take advantage of the gloomstalker's ambusher ability.

[strangebloke]

You can't use Hold Person and Shadow Blade at the same time as they are both concentration. If you're getting help, then sure.

----------Edit: Build

Here's a niche nova build. Gloomstalker ranger 5/sorcerer 3/fighter 2/paladin 2. You only get 1 ASI so put it in strength. On your first turn when you action surge you get 6 attacks. Weapon options are shadow blade and greatsword. Dueling fighting style and Great Weapon Fighting style. Ability scores start at 15/13/11/8/13/13. One ASI and standard human get 18/14/9/12/14/14. In the interest of being a glass cannon I've left Con with a negative modifier.

1) If you cast Shadow Blade using a 3rd level slot, you have just enough spell points/slots to make 4 level 3 smites and 2 level 2 smites.
22d8 of smite + 2d8 gloomstalker + 18d8 shadow blade + 36 flat = 225 damage. And you have advantage if attacking in the dark or dim light.
2) If you quicken a Hold Person spell, you can smite 4 times with 3rd level slots and twice with second level slots. Using a greatsword (no GWM), damage is 24d6+44d8+4d8+24 = 324. If you find a way to gain advantage/a magic +3 greatsword, and use GWM, increase damage by 60. I don't recommend this.

Note that this nova must be done on the first turn to take advantage of the gloomstalker's ambusher ability.
don't think it matters for his build since he stated that it was cast by a friend, but it does for mine. Serious oversight.

[DivisibleByZero]

don't think it matters for his build since he stated that it was cast by a friend, but it does for mine. Serious oversight.
This.
I didn't say that I cast Hold. I simply added it for the sake of completeness.
242 average in one round, without the Hold. That's my Nova.

[lr-hr-rh]

Awesome, I've got some really cool ideas from this thread. Thanks for all the input :)


...

This looks pretty damn promising, I hadn't considered going Fighter 2 to grab Action Surge and completely missed the SCAG cantrips. By 12 you've only taken the 1 ASI, would you put that in CHA +2?

Can you use eldritch smite and divine smite on the same single attack?

Also shadow blade is good but to get good to hit/damage modifiers to it you're sacrificing a bit of SADness since I don't think you can make it your pact weapon and use CHA with it.



...
For resources that's
4 level 4 spells (19 SP, since 3 are created with font of magic)
2 level 3 spells (6 SP)
4 SP (Twin*2, quicken)
For 29/29 resources. You literally have to use every spell to achieve this.

I like the look of this build, but I think you can only have as many sorcery points as your Sorcerer level. Is the plan to occasionally use bonus actions to convert for more slots/sp as necessary when your pool dips low?


This is what I'd suggest two with minor changes.

- At low level, I'd use Action Surge Heightened Hold Person then cantrip + quickened cantrip.
Fighter 2 + Sorcerer 3.
- At mid-level, I'd use Quickened Haste or Hold Person depending on the context then either either aim for smite+cantrip or lots of attacks (so either Paladin 2 / Warlock 3 added, or plain Warlock 5).
At high-level, I'd aim towards a 3rd level in either...
- Devotion Paladin: another +5 to hit against everyone, but takes an action so basically tied with Action Surge, for the fights in which you actually don't want to nova but instead sustain.
- Battlemaster 3: Precision Attack and Tripping Attack will greatly pump your real nova damage, without hurting your action economy.
Then I'd choose whether to get bigger spells to be versatile or rack up on short-rest high slots.
I'd personally aim towards Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 7 / Fighter 3 / Paladin 2 if I wanted to maximize nova potential. :)

Taking devotion or battlemaster for the extra options is interesting. With your final build, what do you get out of taking Warlock to 7? Is it just the higher level for your warlock spell slots?

[strangebloke]

I like the look of this build, but I think you can only have as many sorcery points as your Sorcerer level. Is the plan to occasionally use bonus actions to convert for more slots/sp as necessary when your pool dips low?


you can only hold so many SP, but you can create any number of slots. So in this case you need to spend like 3-4 rounds ahead of time creating those extra fourth level slots.

Please remember that my trick of throwing out quickened hold person works, but does not combo with shadow blade.

Also, I would not recommend grabbing both paladin 2 and fighter 2. While this does boost your burst ability, there's too much overlap in those levels, and fighter levels hurt spell progression badly.

[DivisibleByZero]

Also, I would not recommend grabbing both paladin 2 and fighter 2. While this does boost your burst ability, there's too much overlap in those levels, and fighter levels hurt spell progression badly.
Overlap is irrelevant.
Spell progression wasn't the goal.
Nova was the goal.
Two more attacks that round increases Nova.

[strangebloke]

Overlap is irrelevant.
Spell progression wasn't the goal.
Nova was the goal.
Two more attacks that round increases Nova.

yeah.

But this is a character he also wants to actually play. I don't think that grabbing both fighter 2 and paladin 2 is conducive to that goal.

[Chugger]

Pal 2 / Sorc x works. Take at least Green Flame Blade if you can (if you are in AL that limits you to the SCAG book and not XgtE). At overall lvl 5 you're a little weak, you're only a lvl 3 sorc while others can throw fireballs or do extra attack. But you _can_ extra attack when you need to with quicken - quicken GFB as a b.a. and then use main attack to melee attack - and if needed DS on both.

In theory you can spend 2 sorc pts quickening gfb and then 1 pts to twin bb (booming blade).

If not using sorc points in a fight - cuz you're either out of them or saving them - your damage using these cantrips is not awful. You can also Quicken some other sorc spell if you want and use your action to firebolt (if nothing is in melee range) or melee attack and DS.

Okay once you get to higher lvls you will often have spell slots which you can only use to DS or to upcast for - or use to make more sorc pts. At this point you'll be able to do the equivalent of extra attack a lot more per session - because you have a lot more slots and sorc pts. So it gets better. You can quicken Improved Invis on yourself - and use your action to twin booming blade and DS twice.

If you are allowed to use both SCAG book and XgtE then a 1 lvl dip in hexblade ends your MADness problem, letting you use CHA for your plus to hit and plus to damage. And it of course boosts your spells' power. Hope this helps.

[Chugger]

Also this thread is worth reading http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

[Citan]

Awesome, I've got some really cool ideas from this thread. Thanks for all the input :)



This looks pretty damn promising, I hadn't considered going Fighter 2 to grab Action Surge and completely missed the SCAG cantrips. By 12 you've only taken the 1 ASI, would you put that in CHA +2?

Can you use eldritch smite and divine smite on the same single attack?

Also shadow blade is good but to get good to hit/damage modifiers to it you're sacrificing a bit of SADness since I don't think you can make it your pact weapon and use CHA with it.



I like the look of this build, but I think you can only have as many sorcery points as your Sorcerer level. Is the plan to occasionally use bonus actions to convert for more slots/sp as necessary when your pool dips low?



Taking devotion or battlemaster for the extra options is interesting. With your final build, what do you get out of taking Warlock to 7? Is it just the higher level for your warlock spell slots?
Honestly it's more of a taste choice than a split that would be factually better. I'm usually all about balance. :)
With Warlock 7, you get 4th slots, so "ready-for maximized smite" slots. But it's also a chance to learn some good 4th level spells that Sorcerer won't have, such as Elemental Bane (perfect to pair with Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade cantrips, although its true strength come from when several people in party have available attacks with the same kind of damage, or War Caster feat) or Hallucinatory Terrain (very useful and versatile), or Greater Invisibility, or just another upcastable spell from a lower leve, as well as using those slots on Sorcerer's own good spells. So there is that.
And you have another invocation too: it could be a Xanath's "improved magic weapon (don't remember, but another +1 on rolls) or the "teleport near to target" one, great to reduce time to get to your BBEG. Or instead something to make you more versatile, like the free Disguise Self. ;)
Also, if your DM would be fine with that level of munchkinism, the Sorcerer 7 / Warlock 7 means you gain 8 points every short rest, enough for one more 4th level (another smite) and 1st (another Shield) long-rest slot by conversion or another 5th level slot if you pick the Warlock smite invocation or just wants a high cast.

To be fair though, if you wanted to maximize that conversion trick towards optimum smites, it may be better..eat two levels of Fighter to...
- Either push the Paladin up to 5th level and instead grab Tome Pact with Rituals (= you maximize chances to take short rest thanks to Leomund's Tiny Hut / Alram / etc).
- Or just push Warlock to 9 so you get 10 points per short rest for faster/higher conversion.

But as I said, my taste is rather towards the "balanced and verstaile" side. I may even eat at another level of Sorcerer to get both Devotion and Battlemaster just to be sure noones can ever escape my wrath, but it means either "half-nova" or preparation round because of Sacred Weapon eating an action whatever happens.

[wilhelmdubdub]

Not sure if Dread ambusher interacts with action surge, but if it does:

Bladesinger 6, Gloom stalker 4, Fighter 2
take dueling fighting style, bump dex + elven accuracy
Bonus action: cast shadow blade for 3D8 damage

Attack action1: 3 attacks= 9D8+D8 +6duelling +12
action surge
Attack action2: 3 attacks= 9D8+D8 +6duelling +12

total= 20D8 +36 =126avg

attack in dim light/darkness for triple advantage

[Asmotherion]

Hexblade Sorcerer can be very fun to play. Use your Sorcerer Spell Slots to Quicken Eldritch Blast, or use your Sorcerer spell slots to fuel Eldritch Smite when switching to Melee.

The Hexblade Paladin is a very usual build that basically needs nothing except Cha, Con (both for HP and to keep concentration) and the minimum of the Str for the multiclass, which incidentally also helps you to put on your Armor, so it's not like it's entirelly useless for you.

You can have 10s or even 8s on the rest of your stats and still be very effective. If you plan to keep Medium armor and not go for Heavy armor, better have a decent Dex as well, but that's it.

You can also build a very effective Hex-Eldritch Knight with the same Concept.

So, basically, "glass cannon build Gishes" are less effective, mostly because being a Glass Cannon (aka having a low con) means you will also loose concentration on spells, and that's something 5e is less forgiving about than previous editions (because of less spell slots and action economy). It's also generally not so great to have less HP when engaging in melee.

An other nice build is the Arcane Trickster/Abjurer Wizard. Build it around Shadow Blade, Booming Blade and delivering Sneak Attack. You won't be having Shadow Blade 'till level 6 though, and it's extreamly Mad, as you need good Dex, Int and relativelly good Con just in case. That said, the Arcane Ward can keep you Alive for a prolongued time, and a Booming Sneak Attack with the Shadow Blade does pack quite a lot of damage per turn, effectivelly making you as effective as the Palading in DPT at that level.

[Easy_Lee]

With a Rogue Assassin 3 / Hexblade 9 and a supportive table, you can open many fights with around 28D8 (Eldritch Smite + Rapier, crit*2) + 4D6 (SA) + 2*(prof+CHA) damage. You would presumably spend the rest of the fight using EB + Cunning Action, and not much else. But you did say Nova, and that's one way to drop a bomb first turn.

[Davrix]

With a Rogue Assassin 3 / Hexblade 9 and a supportive table, you can open many fights with around 28D8 (Eldritch Smite + Rapier, crit*2) + 4D6 (SA) + 2*(prof+CHA) damage. You would presumably spend the rest of the fight using EB + Cunning Action, and not much else. But you did say Nova, and that's one way to drop a bomb first turn.

how are you getting 28 D8 ?
I mean i understand you double dice via crit rules but how are you generating that much?

[Jack Bitters]

how are you getting 28 D8 ?
I mean i understand you double dice via crit rules but how are you generating that much?

Presumably by striking twice and burning his spell slots on eldritch smite.
Two attacks (with thirsting blade invocation) using a rapier (1d8) and eldritch smite with a 5th level slot (6d8) = 2x7d8 = 14d8, then crit x2 = 28d8.

The only problem with this is that you can only use eldritch smite once a turn, something people have been forgetting.

[Easy_Lee]

Presumably by striking twice and burning his spell slots on eldritch smite.
Two attacks (with thirsting blade invocation) using a rapier (1d8) and eldritch smite with a 5th level slot (6d8) = 2x7d8 = 14d8, then crit x2 = 28d8.

The only problem with this is that you can only use eldritch smite once a turn, something people have been forgetting.

Whoops, good catch. That makes the build quite a bit less interesting.

[Asmotherion]

Whoops, good catch. That makes the build quite a bit less interesting.

The best way to sleeze a pseudo-smite ability into a Rogue is Shadow Blade. It's Quite Consistant (as long as you can hold concentration) and can be used as a weapon to quallify for Sneak Attack and Booming Blade.

The Build Variations then are about:
A) How much Spell slots you may want to upcast it as. A faster spellcasting progression at least till you get some 3rd level slots might be needed. From then, you can either go for a Multiclass, or stay a Dip Caster/Arcane Trickster.
B) Con saves, which will be needed if you want to engage in melee; You may be able to disengage as a bonus action, but it never hurts to be able to keep you spell up.

Being a Warlock can also be a great help (any Warlock) as you get spell slots that renew themselves on a short rest; It's a good mechanic when you rely on a spell that has an encounter duration.

[lr-hr-rh]

In general I'm less concerned about the long-term survivability of the character in longer battles; having less versatility from taking fighter or poorer con saves (and therefore poorer concentration) actually fits well with the theme of the character I'm going for :P


Pal 2 / Sorc x works. Take at least Green Flame Blade if you can (if you are in AL that limits you to the SCAG book and not XgtE). At overall lvl 5 you're a little weak, you're only a lvl 3 sorc while others can throw fireballs or do extra attack. But you _can_ extra attack when you need to with quicken - quicken GFB as a b.a. and then use main attack to melee attack - and if needed DS on both.

In theory you can spend 2 sorc pts quickening gfb and then 1 pts to twin bb (booming blade).

If not using sorc points in a fight - cuz you're either out of them or saving them - your damage using these cantrips is not awful. You can also Quicken some other sorc spell if you want and use your action to firebolt (if nothing is in melee range) or melee attack and DS.

Okay once you get to higher lvls you will often have spell slots which you can only use to DS or to upcast for - or use to make more sorc pts. At this point you'll be able to do the equivalent of extra attack a lot more per session - because you have a lot more slots and sorc pts. So it gets better. You can quicken Improved Invis on yourself - and use your action to twin booming blade and DS twice.

If you are allowed to use both SCAG book and XgtE then a 1 lvl dip in hexblade ends your MADness problem, letting you use CHA for your plus to hit and plus to damage. And it of course boosts your spells' power. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the suggestions :). I really need to give the SCAG cantrips a proper lookover it seems (I definitely haven't thought much about my bonus action option outside of quickened eldritch blast). I'm a big fan of the Unlimited Blade Works guide too, although I've been semi-seriously deliberating taking PAM and its unfortunate that the polearm section was never finished. I haven't actually looked through the hundreds of posts that follow the guide though, so maybe its covered by others at a later date (alongside how the meta changes with Conquest and its lock down fear effect, Hexblade allowing you to be SAD and so on). I might need to give more consideration to going further in Sorcerer too actually. Apparently it's somewhat recommended against since you're likely to be a bit weaker (taking a hit wise) with fewer paladin levels, but that might actually fit the theme quiet well!


Honestly it's more of a taste choice than a split that would be factually better. I'm usually all about balance. :)
With Warlock 7, you get 4th slots, so "ready-for maximized smite" slots. But it's also a chance to learn some good 4th level spells that Sorcerer won't have, such as Elemental Bane (perfect to pair with Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade cantrips, although its true strength come from when several people in party have available attacks with the same kind of damage, or War Caster feat) or Hallucinatory Terrain (very useful and versatile), or Greater Invisibility, or just another upcastable spell from a lower leve, as well as using those slots on Sorcerer's own good spells. So there is that.
And you have another invocation too: it could be a Xanath's "improved magic weapon (don't remember, but another +1 on rolls) or the "teleport near to target" one, great to reduce time to get to your BBEG. Or instead something to make you more versatile, like the free Disguise Self. ;)
Also, if your DM would be fine with that level of munchkinism, the Sorcerer 7 / Warlock 7 means you gain 8 points every short rest, enough for one more 4th level (another smite) and 1st (another Shield) long-rest slot by conversion or another 5th level slot if you pick the Warlock smite invocation or just wants a high cast.

To be fair though, if you wanted to maximize that conversion trick towards optimum smites, it may be better..eat two levels of Fighter to...
- Either push the Paladin up to 5th level and instead grab Tome Pact with Rituals (= you maximize chances to take short rest thanks to Leomund's Tiny Hut / Alram / etc).
- Or just push Warlock to 9 so you get 10 points per short rest for faster/higher conversion.

But as I said, my taste is rather towards the "balanced and verstaile" side. I may even eat at another level of Sorcerer to get both Devotion and Battlemaster just to be sure noones can ever escape my wrath, but it means either "half-nova" or preparation round because of Sacred Weapon eating an action whatever happens.

I really like a lot of these suggestions, so thanks :). I usually have a similar approach to character creation as you, looking for balance and versatility, but I'm kinda hoping to lean less into munchkinism and more into a character that focuses exclusively on doing one thing really well (and that one thing being hitting things really hard a few times) and playing with all the fun limitations that come from being that single-minded. So kinda like a "real-life" min-maxer (and not even a necessarily good one at that) slowly experiencing an existential crisis :P...

...and yet I'm still tempted to make this build more practical by trying for Battlemaster and/or Devotion though. I'm not sure if going more in Warlock for extra invocations or staying Sorcerer for higher level spells fits more with the overall theme though, so I'll have to give that more thought too.

[Alkerite]

For pure nova, how about a Fighter 2, Fiend Pact Warlock 10?

Open with Mental Prison (maybe you've got a Rod of the Pact Keeper too for a really high Int save DC) 5d10 psychic

Action Surge

Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast, Triggering the Prison (up to) 4d10+20 Force and 10d10 Psychic

Hurl Through Hell 10d10 Psychic

If it's a one on one, while he or she's gone, ready an action to smack him again upon their return. Maybe EB off a cliff?

edit. Whoops Hurl Through Hell is level 14 not 10.

edit. Only 3 EB beams too. Shouldn't have skipped my coffee today. Well it will be really nice in a couple levels. Crown of Stars maybe too.

Levels in fighter doth not a gish make. It's a nice nova based optimized spellcaster, but it's not a gish.

V. Human: GWM put your bonuses in CHA and CON. either dump STR or just make it to 10, because with this build, you won't need STR.

Fighter 5: Gets all the benefits of a second level dip AND the ASI AND the Additional Attack AND the subclass of your choice, take the subclass that suits your fancy. Champ if you don't want to balance any more BS, BM for versatility, and EK for extra magic. GWF for fighting style.

Warlock Blade pact Hexblade 7: Now here what'll make this special, the invocations. Take the standard gish tat like BB.
INVOCS
Eldritch Smite (A must, just magnificent. It stacks with your cantrip buffs, and possible Pala-Pow if you so fancy.)
IPW (Less necessary, but if you want to have instant range options outside of spells, that can be buffed by all your other tat, here's your Invoc.)
Mad. Hex (A ranged cleave that carries off the back of a feature? Yes please.)
Rel. Hex (Magnificent. Instant teleportation to your target, as a bonus action, allowing you to get in for a cheap hit(s) then run away with your action. Stacks with Mad. Hex, and has some real synergy with the BM's manuevers.)

Yes, it's a little bit less FULL BLAST than a rogue based HB gish, but when the chips are down and you've already blown your load, you at least have the stamina for the fallout.:smalltongue: