Making the most of two handed weapons?

[Trey Bright]

To maximize what you get out of two handed weapons, I know that the feats monkey grip and over sized weapon (when I hit epic?) are a must, and I'll probably pick up goliath to maximize on the biggest two handed weapon I can take, but are there any feats that increase the strength and a half bonus you get for two handing weapons?

[Darrin]

So monkey palm and then over sized weapon when I hit epic are a must, but are there any other feats the improve damage or to hit for weapons that you can two hand?


Homework assignment: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).



Specifically weapons that you get 1.5x str to hit and dmg when you do two hand? Any way to improve that?

There are two methods. First, there's the Uncanny Blow stunt from Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior). However, you'll want to discuss it with the DM first, so there's an agreement with how to interpret the text. The second is the Power Lunge feat, which appears in Sword & Fist but was also reprinted in Ghostwalk (which did get a 3.5 update). This sets your Str bonus to x2.0 regardless of whether the weapon is light, offhand, or whatever. It only works when you charge, but there are various methods that allow you to charge every turn (Travel Devotion, Drunken Master 2, etc.).

[Trey Bright]

Homework assignment: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

I'm not looking at using two weapons, I'm looking at using one big weapon with both hands and hitting people as hard as I can with it. My previous DM thought there was some kind of feat the changed the dmg you use to 3x and a better version that changed it to 5x? He kinda made some stuff up sometimes though....so I'm not sure if was remembering correctly or not.

[Anthrowhale]

Take exotic weapon proficiency (minotaur greathammer) and cast Greater Might Wallop on it at caster level 20 to make it effectively 8d6 19-20/x4. Get as many extra appendages as possible via race/polymorph/Girallon's blessing/?? and use the damage scaling with hands rules in Savage Species. Maximize your strength and beat on things.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Monkey Grip is a trap. Don't take it. It only adds about +2 damage on average, which is pitiful for a feat. The same applies to Wield Oversized Weapon.
What you're looking for is Power Attack and the feats it's a prerequisite for. The relevant thread is Optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129070-3-X-Optimizing-Power-Attack).

The short form is simple: Get Power Attack, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack as feats. Get Pounce. Get a Valorous weapon. Charge enemies to make them explode.
You can add more on top of that, but it's kinda unnecessary. A high Str barbarian with the above will mow through anything halfway level appropriate with ease even if you're wielding a quarterstaff.

[emeraldstreak]

The relevant thread is Optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129070-3-X-Optimizing-Power-Attack).

No, it isn't. Power Attack is a distant third to Strength and most of all weapon damage dice.


I'm not looking at using two weapons, I'm looking at using one big weapon with both hands and hitting people as hard as I can with it. My previous DM thought there was some kind of feat the changed the dmg you use to 3x and a better version that changed it to 5x? He kinda made some stuff up sometimes though....so I'm not sure if was remembering correctly or not.

If you're really looking for the very best, you'll have to dig up my improvements on the minmax and giantitp record holder builds.

[Mike Miller]

Monkey Grip is a trap. Don't take it. It only adds about +2 damage on average, which is pitiful for a feat. The same applies to Wield Oversized Weapon.
What you're looking for is Power Attack and the feats it's a prerequisite for. The relevant thread is Optimizing Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129070-3-X-Optimizing-Power-Attack).

The short form is simple: Get Power Attack, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack as feats. Get Pounce. Get a Valorous weapon. Charge enemies to make them explode.
You can add more on top of that, but it's kinda unnecessary. A high Str barbarian with the above will mow through anything halfway level appropriate with ease even if you're wielding a quarterstaff.

I second this. You want to have high power attack bonuses and high str to get even better power attack. Then get good critical and you get massive damage. Don't worry about the weapon dice. 4d6 from a huge weapon is nothing compared to the high static additions of str+power attack

[sleepyphoenixx]

No, it isn't. Power Attack is a distant third to Strength and most of all weapon damage dice.
The math is really simple.
Every point of strength adds +0,75 damage. Of course you're still boosting strength as high as it gets anyway, but the methods to optimize strength are limited. You start with a high attribute, maybe a racial bonus, put all your points from levelling into it and get an enhancement item. Any buffs beyond that are mostly independent from your build.

Size increases vary depending on your weapon and how many you get - assuming a greatsword to start with (2d6, ~7) the first two size increases (to 3d6 and 4d6) add ~3,5 damage each, the following two (to 6d6 and 8d6) add ~7 damage each and the last (to 12d6) adds ~14 damage. Keep in mind that you'll never reach 12d6 unless your medium-size weapon does 3d6 base damage since all virtual size increases top out at collossal (4 increases from medium), which would be an average of 28 damage with a greatsword.
Also getting to virtual collossal size is as easy as having your party mage slap Greater Mighty Wallop on your weapon, so there's no point building for it, at least not to the point of investing major resources.

Power Attack adds +2 damage per point of to-hit you sacrifice (or AC with Shock Trooper). Leap Attack doubles that to +4/-1. Valorous weapon triples the original bonus to +6/-1.
That's +60 damage for a level 10 fighter dumping his maximum into PA (which is no problem with Shock Trooper). More than double the bonus from a weapon size increase from medium to colossal and quadruple the increase from a whopping +20 to strength.

And that's before you optimize PA further - Rhino's Rush, Battle Jump, Frenzied Berserker, the options exist. They're just overkill because a level 10 character hitting for ~80 damage per hit, 3 times per round with Pounce and any of the various methods to get an extra attack, is absolutely ridiculous overkill for encounters of that CR. And that's before crits or other buffs.

[emeraldstreak]

The math is really simple.
Every point of strength adds +0,75 damage. Of course you're still boosting strength as high as it gets anyway, but the methods to optimize strength are limited. You start with a high attribute, maybe a racial bonus, put all your points from levelling into it and get an enhancement item. Any buffs beyond that are mostly independent from your build.

Size increases vary depending on your weapon and how many you get - assuming a greatsword to start with (2d6, ~7) the first two size increases (to 3d6 and 4d6) add ~3,5 damage each, the following two (to 6d6 and 8d6) add ~7 damage each and the last (to 12d6) adds ~14 damage. Keep in mind that you'll never reach 12d6 unless your medium-size weapon does 3d6 base damage since all virtual size increases top out at collossal (4 increases from medium), which would be an average of 28 damage with a greatsword.
Also getting to virtual collossal size is as easy as having your party mage slap Greater Mighty Wallop on your weapon, so there's no point building for it, at least not to the point of investing major resources.

Power Attack adds +2 damage per point of to-hit you sacrifice (or AC with Shock Trooper). Leap Attack doubles that to +4/-1. Valorous weapon triples the original bonus to +6/-1.
That's +60 damage for a level 10 fighter dumping his maximum into PA (which is no problem with Shock Trooper). More than double the bonus from a weapon size increase from medium to colossal and quadruple the increase from a whopping +20 to strength.

And that's before you optimize PA further - Rhino's Rush, Battle Jump, Frenzied Berserker, the options exist. They're just overkill because a level 10 character hitting for ~80 damage per hit, 3 times per round with Pounce and any of the various methods to get an extra attack, is absolutely ridiculous overkill for encounters of that CR. And that's before crits or other buffs.

That's peanuts compared to the record holders the community has designed throughout the years. You're wrong on so many counts I can't even be bothered to count them all, the Strength multiplier, the Strength numbers and their ease of optimization, the damage dice size and number, the totality of the charge multipliers, the use of Frenzied Berserker.

OP asked for the best, this is not the best by a long shot.

[zergling.exe]

That's peanuts compared to the record holders the community has designed throughout the years. You're wrong on so many counts I can't even be bothered to count them all, the Strength multiplier, the Strength numbers and their ease of optimization, the damage dice size and number, the totality of the charge multipliers, the use of Frenzied Berserker.

OP asked for the best, this is not the best by a long shot.

Then either explain it or post a link to what you are referring to. Just telling someone they are wrong is very unconvincing, you have to prove it. Plus they are, you know, actually contributing to the thread with their math. Your lack of math is just picking a fight.

[PrismCat21]

There's a small section in Savage Species that deals with creatures wielding weapons with more than two hands.
If you have a weapon specifically made for it, you add 1/2 you Str modifier for each hand used to wield the weapon after the first.
3 hands = Str x 2
4 hands = Str x 2.5
8 hands = Str x 4.5
ect...

Getting more limbs and an appropriate weapon to wield it with would work well for you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's peanuts compared to the record holders the community has designed throughout the years. You're wrong on so many counts I can't even be bothered to count them all, the Strength multiplier, the Strength numbers and their ease of optimization, the damage dice size and number, the totality of the charge multipliers, the use of Frenzied Berserker.

OP asked for the best, this is not the best by a long shot.

The numbers are taken straight from the SRD so if you're claiming i'm wrong let's see some sources to back that assertion up.
Not that you'll find any because everything i posted is basic knowledge everyone with an internet connection can look up in 5 minutes.
I'll break it down for you:

Twohanded weapons get +1,5 damage per 2 points of strength. Which is +0,75 damage per point of strength. Math!
The size increases for weapons are listed in a handy table. The restriction on only going up to colossal size is straight from the spell description of Greater Mighty Wallop.
The bonus for Power Attack when using a twohanded weapon is +2 per -1 to attack. Straight from the feat description.
The way multipliers work (x2 + x2 = x3) is also straight from the SRD, from the section on stacking multipliers. It's even one of the examples listed.

Are there other options that provide equal damage? Sure, if you're going for TO. But not something that'll ever show up in an actual game. And certainly nothing as simple as two feats and a +1 weapon enhancement that anyone with 13 Strength can pick up.

FYI, to equal the bonus damage of PA + LA + Valorous at level 20 with strength alone you'd need 170 strength (a +80 bonus).
Show me a build that gets to 170 strength that won't get a PHB thrown at your head if you bring it to an actual game, i dare you.

[Deophaun]

That's peanuts compared to the record holders the community has designed throughout the years.
Record holders are always TO builds. Sure, strength theoretically wins because it's unbounded, while Power Attack is bounded, but not many people play with cancer mages or cheese epic feats for a Permanent Emanation consumptive field.

As for damage dice, I'm assuming that's based entirely on the premise that there are weapon sizes above Colossal in 3.5.

[emeraldstreak]

Then either explain it or post a link to what you are referring to. Just telling someone they are wrong is very unconvincing, you have to prove it. Plus they are, you know, actually contributing to the thread with their math. Your lack of math is just picking a fight.

I don't feel like proving anything. OP can listen to my advice and get better results, not listen and get worse results.

As for you, my advice would be to be a little less lazy, put a little more effort in searching and reading about a topic if you want to get good. All the information I talk about is an easy search away, i.e. the best giantitp ubercharger build is in the compilation thread of giantitp's best builds. Shockingly.

Now comes the advanced stuff and you'll not be able to get it without first understanding how the original record holder builds accrue their damage. It's found in a back-and-forth between Eldariel and I in a tangentially related thread, this being the ultimate post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21728122&postcount=78) going above minmax boards' best result. Really, do take the time to understand how the original builds work and why they are improved.

[emeraldstreak]

Record holders are always TO builds. Sure, strength theoretically wins because it's unbounded, while Power Attack is bounded, but not many people play with cancer mages or cheese epic feats for a Permanent Emanation consumptive field.

As for damage dice, I'm assuming that's based entirely on the premise that there are weapon sizes above Colossal in 3.5.

Sure, they are TO builds, and when OP comes with exact level and budget we can see what's best taken from TO and used for his build. But for that, we actually have to understand the underlying math as best as possible, which is where the TO exercise comes in - and highlights things like the tertiary importance of Power Attack.

I simply improved the builds within the rules premises they already have set for themselves years ago. In both cases increasing the damage dice played a key role (but wasn't the only trick they lacked), despite them having different premises on the matter. Call it ubiquitousness of the importance of damage dice.

[Deophaun]

Sure, they are TO builds, and when OP comes with exact level and budget we can see what's best taken from TO and used for his build. But for that, we actually have to understand the underlying math as best as possible, which is where the TO exercise comes in - and highlights things like the tertiary importance of Power Attack.
No, that's not how it works. All builds that use Strength to outperform the limits of PA are TO. Flat out. They need a TO method in order to get there, and if you aren't planning to get there, there is no reason to use the TO method. When you're walking around with a 170 Strength, 99% of tables are going to tell you to go away. It's impractical advice in general terms, and you're giving this advice to someone whose existing experience has pointed him to Monkey Grip.

And forgive if I question the quality of your builds, as the one thing that you actually linked did exactly as I suspected and just invented size categories above Colossal in 3.5.

[Fizban]

To maximize what you get out of two handed weapons, I know that the feats monkey grip and over sized weapon (when I hit epic?) are a must, and I'll probably pick up goliath to maximize on the biggest two handed weapon I can take, but are there any feats that increase the strength and a half bonus you get for two handing weapons?
Ah, big weapon build, classic.

First, Monkey Grip and Powerful Build (and Wield Oversized Weapon, and Strongarm Bracers) don't stack, they overlap, so you only get the best version you have.

Size increases are the strongest plain damage (and a bunch of other stuff) buffs in the game: the psionic power Expansion is the easiest (and pairs perfectly with a Half-Giant for Powerful Build), but there's also the 3rd level spell Greater Mighty Wallop, which increases the weapons damage as if you were larger without actually making you larger- if this stacks with enlarging yourself, that's a lotta damage.. The wallop only works with blunt weapons though, and those usually cap at 1d10 for the basic medium versions, while Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade gives you 2d8 (one size bigger) to start.

There's probably something that increases the str modifier to 2x, but I don't know it off the top of my head so I doubt its all that great (else I'd have heard about it more often).

Finally, as with any optimization, you'll want to check with your DM and make sure you aren't going to be overpowered.

[Esprit15]

I think I’ll join the chorus of people saying “Power Attack, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack, Valorous Weapon, call it a day.” While you can go beyond that by adding in Frenzied Berserker and mounted charges with a lance and Spirited Charge, at that point you’re just killing everything, including the game.

[emeraldstreak]

No, that's not how it works. All builds that use Strength to outperform the limits of PA are TO. Flat out. They need a TO method in order to get there, and if you aren't planning to get there, there is no reason to use the TO method. When you're walking around with a 170 Strength, 99% of tables are going to tell you to go away. It's impractical advice in general terms, and you're giving this advice to someone whose existing experience has pointed him to Monkey Grip.

And forgive if I question the quality of your builds, as the one thing that you actually linked did exactly as I suspected and just invented size categories above Colossal in 3.5.

I've linked four builds but you're too lazy to scroll through a thread, and even the one you claim "invents" size categories above Colossal doesn't.

But since you're so bothered about high Strength, let me walk you through what's going to happen when a non-TO Power Attack build goes against a Damage Dice build:

- they'll have the same Strength (as little as you feel comfortable with) multiplied for two-handed weapon
- yours will have a few points of Base Attack Bonus more to put into Power Attack, or not even that because Divine Power exists
- mine will have an Oversized Scorpion Kama and 12d8 base damage dice on it vastly eclipsing your weapon dice
- they'll have the same charge multipliers

Yours will lose, by a lot.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I've linked four builds but you're too lazy to scroll through a thread, and even the one you claim "invents" size categories above Colossal doesn't.

But since you're so bothered about high Strength, let me walk you through what's going to happen when a non-TO Power Attack build goes against a Damage Dice build:

- they'll have the same Strength (as little as you feel comfortable with) multiplied for two-handed weapon
- yours will have a few points of Base Attack Bonus more to put into Power Attack, or not even that because Divine Power exists
- mine will have an Oversized Scorpion Kama and 12d8 base damage dice on it vastly eclipsing your weapon dice
- they'll have the same charge multipliers

Yours will lose, by a lot.

That doesn't do too much good at level 4, when a couple of kobolds and an orc are collectively smacking you in the face, and peppering you with arrows.

The OP wanted some help for a game, ostensibly, not something so over-specialized that the DM gives him a hard 'no', and the rest of the table tells him to write up a new character, or they're not playing.

It doesn't matter how big anyone's damage is, if the rest of the table is shaking their head at you.

[Deophaun]

I've linked four builds but you're too lazy to scroll through a thread, and even the one you claim "invents" size categories above Colossal doesn't.
You've linked a single post. And, for starters, you're applying Improved Natural Attack, which improves "one of the creature's natural attack forms increases... as if the creature's size had increased by one category" to a creature that is at Colossal+ (itself stated as a special exemption to the general rule that the maximum size is Colossal, and thus not achievable through expansion). And I can repeat that for most of the stuff on that list.

- mine will have an Oversized Scorpion Kama and 12d8 base damage dice on it vastly eclipsing your weapon dice
Do you know what the average damage of 12d8 (the highest damage dice on the weapon size progression) is? It's 54. Is 54 greater than 80? No? That puts it behind PA.

[emeraldstreak]

you're applying Improved Natural Attack

Nah, I'm not applying anything. The minmax boards community created the build. What you fail to understand is a Colossal creature can benefit from Improved Natural Attack. Improved Natural Attack isn't a size increase as it itself clearly states.


Do you know what the average damage of 12d8 (the highest damage dice on the weapon size progression) is? It's 54. Is 54 greater than 80? No? That puts it behind PA.

Both builds would gain almost the same (or exactly the same with Divine Power) from Power Attack. The Damage Dice is where an Oversized Scorpion Kama will trounce your build's paltry numbers. I mean, I'll quote your number but you haven't provided a weapon. Until you provide something better I'll go with the Greatsword's 7, putting you 47 multiplied by all the charge multipliers behind.

[emeraldstreak]

That doesn't do too much good at level 4, when a couple of kobolds and an orc are collectively smacking you in the face, and peppering you with arrows.


Every guy who ever tried to convince me a sword&board Fighter is better than a Wizard began with an inane statement like the one above.

[Deophaun]

Nah, I'm not applying anything. The minmax boards community created the build. What you fail to understand is a Colossal creature can benefit from Improved Natural Attack.
What you fail to understand is that it cannot. What happens if a Colossal creature gains a size increase? Nothing happens, because there is no size category beyond. So nothing happens if a Colossal weapon's die increases as if it had gained a size increase.

Both builds would gain almost the same (or exactly the same with Divine Power) from Power Attack. The Damage Dice is where an Oversized Scorpion Kama will trounce your build's paltry numbers. I mean, I'll quote your number but you haven't provided a weapon. Until you provide something better I'll go with the Greatsword's 7, putting you 47 multiplied by all the charge multipliers behind.
There is no build. We are talking about Power Attack versus increasing damage dice. 80 is greater than 54. You claimed PA was behind damage dice in output, yet 80 is greater than 54.

[emeraldstreak]

What you fail to understand is that it cannot. What happens if a Colossal creature gains a size increase? Nothing happens, because there is no size category beyond. So nothing happens if a Colossal weapon's die increases as if it had gained a size increase.

Now try to provide a RAW citation for this. Really, do try.


There is no build. We are talking about Power Attack versus increasing damage dice. 80 is greater than 54. You claimed PA was behind damage dice in output, yet 80 is greater than 54.

Yes, after you begged for Strength to be lowered, and after I decided to limit Damage Dice to just 12d8 for a non-TO build, 80 is higher. But wait, it's only 80 at level 20. Meanwhile, Damage Dice of 12d8 can be achieved much earlier, probably around lvl 11 or so. So unless OP is starting at level 14+ I'll still be correct, not to mention the Damage Dice build is always superior as a total.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Every guy who ever tried to convince me a sword&board Fighter is better than a Wizard began with an inane statement like the one above.

So you ignored the rest of the post? Honest question.

I have another question, how many of those people you're talking about phrased that opinion as 'I find playing sword and board fighter to be more fun than wizard'?

Anecdote: I had a player in my group who loved wizards, but every now and again, just rolled up a vanilla fighter, because he was in the mood for sword and board. He said it was fun, and when he played it, it was fun for him.

Not everything has to be TO min-max'd builds and max numbers, sometimes people just want some hints, and a little fun.

OP you might wanna get ahold of... Oh, what was it called? Strongarm bracers, I think it was. That'll get you a virtual size increase, and save you a feat.

[Telonius]

My previous DM thought there was some kind of feat the changed the dmg you use to 3x and a better version that changed it to 5x? He kinda made some stuff up sometimes though....so I'm not sure if was remembering correctly or not.

This sounds an awful lot like Improved and Supreme Power Attack. They're features of the Frenzied Berserker, a prestige class from Complete Warrior. Basically, Improved gets you +3 damage for every -2 penalty from power attack for 1-handed weapons, and +3 for every -1 penalty from 2-handed weapons. Supreme boots those numbers to +2/-1 and +4/-1 respectively.

As the rest of the thread has kind of demonstrated, there is a pretty wide range of possible damage results you can get, ranging from "better than a vanilla Barbarian" to "able to split planets in two." About where on that scale are you looking to fall?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Honestly, in any game you actually play there comes a point where you have enough damage.
If your level 10 melee guy rips through a Fire Giant or Adult Dragon in 2 hits with damage to spare i'd say you've reached that point.
Anything more will just get your DM and the other players pissed at you.

Instead of trying to cram even more damage into your build (and probably getting banned from the table in the process) you're better off branching out.
Work on your defenses, get some tripping, pick up stuff like the Mage Slayer line that lets you apply your damage more consistently, get some levels in Warblade or Crusader for maneuvers, pick up Improved Disarm or Skill Focus: Craft(Origami) for all i care.
It doesn't matter. You're the damage guy and if you're killing even the toughest enemies 4+ CR's above you in one round you're doing your job.

If anything i'd keep it down to just Power Attack and Leap Attack (or something else around that level) unless your group is particularly high powered and spend the rest of my feats/wbl/etc on non-damage things.

[Deophaun]

Now try to provide a RAW citation for this. Really, do try.
Actually, the need for RAW is on you. There is nothing listed beyond a 12d8 in the DMG, and it states that you consult the table, not a formula. So where do you get anything beyond that? If you say the RAW is on me to show you that you cannot, then I can say that you need to provide a RAW citation to show me that my commoner cannot deal a all the damage by looking at you. 3.5's rule set just doesn't work that way.

As for Colossal being the biggest size; that's explicitly stated, ironically enough, in the place where it provides the exception:

Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the largest advanced dragons have a greater reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons. These dragons are said to be of Colossal+ (“Colossal plus”) size.
It states the general rule, and then it states a circumstance where you can get around the general rule. Strangely, possessing Improved Natural Attack is not that circumstance.

[emeraldstreak]

Actually, the need for RAW is on you. There is nothing listed beyond a 12d8 in the DMG, and it states that you consult the table, not a formula. So where do you get anything beyond that? If you say the RAW is on me to show you that you cannot, then I can say that you need to provide a RAW citation to show me that my commoner cannot deal a all the damage by looking at you. 3.5's rule set just doesn't work that way.

Sorry, no more moving of the goal posts. Your objection had nothing to do with the table's highest damage dice number. Your objection was a Colossal creature cannot increase its damage dice because "citation", but you are unable to provide such citation. Let's rate you on RAW on this objection: flat out wrong



As for Colossal being the biggest size; that's explicitly stated

Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if the biggest size is Colossal, Gargantuan, Colossal+, or Humongous. Improved Natural Attack isn't a size increase and couldn't care less what the biggest size in the game is. Let's rate you on RAW on this objection: flat out wrong

[Galacktic]

Emerald you could phrase a lot of this in way less of a jackass way. Even if you do have a point - I'm not saying you do or don't cause I'm staying out of this - you will never prove it by sounding and being incredibly unpleasant.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, there's absolutely no RAW supporting that anything exists that's larger than colossal, apart from the ELH classifying only dragons as Colossal+ in size. If your character is not a dragon that can advance according to the rules in the ELH, then sizes larger than Colossal simply don't exist by RAW for your character. Thus Colossal is the largest damage size you can get on any weapon, period, as no rules exist that allow you to exceed this limit.

Second, the Complete Adventurer Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) changed Leap Attack so that it's no longer a multiplier, it now increases all Power Attack damage by 100%. That means if you have three x2 multipliers it becomes x4, but your two-handed Power Attack goes from +2 per -1 to +4 per -1 with Leap Attack, and that gets multiplied by your x4.

Third, you don't want to get into the realm of theoretic optimization, those types of builds have absolutely no place in an actual game and generally don't even function at all prior to 20th level.



My advice is to play an arcane gish, and use an appropriately sized two-handed bludgeoning weapon such as a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer in MMIV p101. You can cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of the Dragon on it every day to increase its base damage as though it were larger, up to colossal size. This can be accomplished without any oversized weapon penalties or armchair optimization tricks that don't even work within the game's rules.

For this arcane gish, you want to be able to add Persistent Spell to your buffs by some alternate means. Incantatrix or Spelldancer are often go-to choices but that gets into a power level beyond what exists at most tables. I'd recommend an Illumian from Races of Destiny, and go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 for the build. Use the Naenhoon runeword from Illumian with the turn undead uses from Sacred Exorcist to make two buffs last 24 hours each day, such as Shield and Wraithstrike, or Wraithstrike and Greater Invisibility, or Wraithstrike and Draconic Polymorph, etc. Once you get Dispel Evil from Sacred Exorcist it will meet its own spellcasting prerequisite and you can trade out Dismissal for a different spell.

Until you can persist your spells, cast or use a wand of Wraithstrike each round that you're going to attack, and Power Attack for your full BAB. Per the Rules Compendium any spell trigger or spell completion item takes the same action to activate as the spell being used, so a wand of a swift-action casting time spell such as Wraithstrike is still a swift action to use, and you can put it in a wand chamber in your weapon so you can use it while wielding that. You can use Extend Spell (normally or with a lesser metamagic rod) when casting Wraithstrike to use it half as often, and it won't take longer to cast since the rules on spontaneously cast spells with metamagic only applies to spells with a casting time of a standard action or longer.

Your Paladin levels allow you to use wands of Paladin spells, so once you have Persistent Wraithstrike you can put a Wand of Rhino's Rush in that wand chamber of your weapon. That's also a swift action, and it doubles the damage of your next charge attack.

[emeraldstreak]

Emerald you could phrase a lot of this in way less of a jackass way. Even if you do have a point - I'm not saying you do or don't cause I'm staying out of this - you will never prove it by sounding and being incredibly unpleasant.

Unfortunately, this isn't my experience in ~15 years of DnD 3.5 forum participation. Calmly stated facts that go against the grain are simply ignored. Some people just cannot abide a challenge against the beliefs they hold, regardless of how compelling the math is. I guess for this kind of people proving a belief they hold as incorrect brings personal shame.

[DrMotives]

I've never seen someone who's rank of "troll in the playground" is more appropriate.

[Deophaun]

Sorry, no more moving of the goal posts.
Goalposts are sunk in concrete. I'm still waiting for you to cite anything in RAW that supports being able to go beyond Colossal. Of course, you cannot, because such a thing does not exist. Unfortunately, you mistake being unable to explain yourself with having no need to explain yourself.

Anyway, continuing this further is pointless.

[emeraldstreak]

To maximize what you get out of two handed weapons, I know that the feats monkey grip and over sized weapon (when I hit epic?) are a must, and I'll probably pick up goliath to maximize on the biggest two handed weapon I can take, but are there any feats that increase the strength and a half bonus you get for two handing weapons?

Going back to actual builds, I know you've expressed interest in Monks/Saint in the past. So here is a chassis (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161) for a Chaotic Good Monk eventually going into Saint, who also does well on the charge.

The campaign was to be starting at level 10, and the DM asked us to have minor custom magic items to represent Eberron's magecraft. Those can be adjusted/worked around per the requirements of your campaign.

On a charge, this build pounces (pounce = full attack on charge, not just one) for up to six attacks, each of them hitting for 179 average damage. This actually isn't that high for an optimized build, but it should be plenty for an actual campaign.

It isn't a two-hander build either, instead it is a barehanded one. If you really want a two-hander weapon character, it can be reworked into a Oversized Scorpion Kama charger. However, since the build was to be a Saint, I wanted it to have Touch of Golden Ice exalted feat (a ravage - special kind of powerful poison affecting undead and demons that can be used as normal attack or as touch attack easily overcoming the massive amounts of natural armor high CR monsters have) because it is both a possible requirement for Saint and gets a nice +2 DC boost from the template. It also can get another two from the Ability Focus feat, and if your DM agrees it can be brought up to speed with poisons in 3.5 and have its base DC related to your Constitution modifier.

Defense-wise, I lowballed it on purpose (compared to what I could build) because having this offense with a defense comparable to what I put on my gauntlet or PvP arena champions would be a major headache for any DM; still it does have some nice things like DR 10/silver to brush off the chaff. Finally, Saint itself is strong defensively when you get there.

I called it a "chassis" because the campaign wasn't to be and it isn't 100% finished, but all the defining touches are there. If you go with something like it and have questions about things yet missing, let me know.

[emeraldstreak]

I'm still waiting for you to cite anything in RAW that supports being able to go beyond Colossal.

Not only I won't cite such a thing, but I'll actively argue against people who claim going beyond Colossal is possible, other than the exception in the Draconomicon. Gaining damage dice from size increases ends at Colossal.

Then there are damage dice gains that are mathematically calculated as if a size increase, but state that they aren't size increases. The poster child of these is Improved Natural Attack. No RAW bans such benefits for creatures of any size...but there is a catch.

The catch is the 3.5 DMG table only goes to 12d8. While no RAW states this is the maximum damage dice in the game (or even that this is the only valid dice progression table in the game, 3.0 had several), we're not allowed to make numbers out of thin air and claim they are RAW (there's an obvious RAI progression of the dice, but, obvious as it is, it's still just RAI).

However, then there are the Monster entries, including the Core Monster Manual. They prove damage dice different from the ones listed in the DMG table exist, including higher than 12d8. The Monster Manuals also mandate creatures advance, and increase damage dice when they do so...needless to say the ones not in the DMG cannot be advanced per RAW (no table entry) yet RAW itself demands they advance. This is a Catch-22 situation where RAW will always be violated and some RAI must arise. Obviously the correct RAI is to advance the no-table-entry damage dice as best as possible given the inclinations of the table.


So what does all that RAW amount to...two options:

- The Pure RAW option. It posits damage dice values above 12d8 exist, but they are forever undefined (unless in the cases they are already defined and assumed via some Shapechange-like effect). This is good enough when comparing the total damage of builds that are equal in all other respects (Strength, Power Attack, etc) but the damage dice, because 12d8+undefined increase beats just 12d8...we just don't know by how many. But once other bonuses diverge, it becomes impossible to compare builds.

- The Monster Manuals Fix Extended option. This options extends the approach that is demanded by the Monster Manuals' RAW to (N)PCs. Values above 12dX, following the well-established progression of the DMG table, are possible under this option.

[Raendyn]

Valorous weapon doubles weapon dmg. so its not +1 times total attack dmg. like most ppl want it ot be, its +3d6 with your greatsword and its already too much dmg for a +1 enchant

[sleepyphoenixx]

Valorous weapon doubles weapon dmg. so its not +1 times total attack dmg. like most ppl want it ot be, its +3d6 with your greatsword and its already too much dmg for a +1 enchant

Nope. It even references Spirited Charge to make it extra clear. Your interpretation may be more balanced, but it's wishful thinking, not RAW.

[Aimeryan]

It should probably be noted that pounce, by RAW, does not replace your Charge Attack with a Full Attack but instead follows it:


When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Bolded for emphasis.

This might seem like a buff, but instead it tends to be a nerf since multipliers on a Charge (Valorous, Lance, possibly Leap Attack, etc.) now only affect the Charge Attack and not the Full Attack.

[TotallyNotEvil]

There's a feat that gives you 2x STR to damage if you use a full attack action with a two handed weapon.

I think it's from Quintessential Fighter or somesuch.

[Anthrowhale]

It should probably be noted that pounce, by RAW, does not replace your Charge Attack with a Full Attack but instead follows it:



Bolded for emphasis.

This might seem like a buff, but instead it tends to be a nerf since multipliers on a Charge (Valorous, Leap Attack, etc.) now only affect the Charge Attack and not the Full Attack.

I hadn't seen this previously. Has anyone played with that interpretation? It seems clearly correct after a careful reading.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It seems clearly correct after a careful reading.
Since the Rules Compendium goes out of its way to clarify that the to-hit bonus from a charge applies to all attacks of a pounce (making them all part of the charge) i'd say it seems clearly like unclear wording.
There may also be more in RC in the section on charging, but i'm afb so i can't check. But i definitely remember the above part.

[Darrin]

I hadn't seen this previously. Has anyone played with that interpretation? It seems clearly correct after a careful reading.

You can also get a free bull rush as part of your charge. So you could do your movement, make a melee attack, make a bull rush, and then make a full-attack if you had Pounce. There's no text in the PHB or RC that says the bull rush replaces your single melee attack.

However, I don't know anyone who has ever played Pounce that way.

[Aimeryan]

You can also get a free bull rush as part of your charge. So you could do your movement, make a melee attack, make a bull rush, and then make a full-attack if you had Pounce. There's no text in the PHB or RC that says the bull rush replaces your single melee attack.

However, I don't know anyone who has ever played Pounce that way.

Nearly; you have to bull rush as part of a charge.


You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

Bolded for emphasis.

When you attack you have finished your Charge, so it has to occur before:

Move --> Bull Rush --> Attack :: This is your Charge
Full Attack :: This is your Pounce

It may seem like a free Bull Rush when you Charge is too much, but feats like Knockback (RoS) allow you a free Bull Rush with every attack, and furthermore applies a potentially huge bonus to the check, does not require you to move into the opponent's space, and does not provoke an AoO. A standard Bull Rush during a Charge is minor in comparison and also makes a lot of sense anyway.



Since the Rules Compendium goes out of its way to clarify that the to-hit bonus from a charge applies to all attacks of a pounce (making them all part of the charge) i'd say it seems clearly like unclear wording.
There may also be more in RC in the section on charging, but i'm afb so i can't check. But i definitely remember the above part.

That is just because Charging gives a +2 bonus to the attack roll and -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn:


You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Bolded for emphasis. Hence, the statement from the RC (which basically just says you get the bonus on following attacks because you charged), is just reaffirming what the PHB already states - it makes no allusion to meaning that the Full Attack is part of the Charge.

Technically, if you were to make any other attack after a Charge, but within the same turn, you would also get the +2 bonus to the attack roll.

[Anthrowhale]

It says
Only special abilities that specifically allow multiple attacks as part of a charge can give you more than one attack. but the wording of Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) is
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack. The RC rule may or may not refer to Pounce. If it does, then the Pounce attacks are implicitly "part of a charge" and if not, then they aren't part of the charge by RAW. If the RC rules are not about Pounce, then it's unclear what the RC rules refer to. Maybe bull rush?

Anyways, the RC rules certainly imply that a provoked AOO (for example) would benefit from the +2 bonus.

[Darrin]

When you attack you have finished your Charge, so it has to occur before:


The rules are ambiguous about when a "charge" ends. The designers essentially got sloppy here. I presume that what they intended is what they are referring to as the "charge" is the movement portion of the action, while the melee attack that follows the movement portion was at one point considered a separate action. Pounce was supposed to "replace" the single melee attack, but they got sloppy with how they worded it.

Bull rush is, again, sloppy wording, but it's even worse, as it's even more ambiguous. You could interpret the bull rush as happening before, during, or after the movement, as that's all "part of" the charge.

In my mind, if you wanted to go by strict raw, it would be Move --> Single Melee Attack --> Bull Rush --> Full Attack. Or you could switch it to Move --> Bull Rush --> Single Melee Attack --> Full Attack.

But as I said, I have never actually seen anyone play that way or endorse it in an actual game.

[Aimeryan]

The rules are ambiguous about when a "charge" ends. The designers essentially got sloppy here. I presume that what they intended is what they are referring to as the "charge" is the movement portion of the action, while the melee attack that follows the movement portion was at one point considered a separate action. Pounce was supposed to "replace" the single melee attack, but they got sloppy with how they worded it.

Bull rush is, again, sloppy wording, but it's even worse, as it's even more ambiguous. You could interpret the bull rush as happening before, during, or after the movement, as that's all "part of" the charge.

In my mind, if you wanted to go by strict raw, it would be Move --> Single Melee Attack --> Bull Rush --> Full Attack. Or you could switch it to Move --> Bull Rush --> Single Melee Attack --> Full Attack.

But as I said, I have never actually seen anyone play that way or endorse it in an actual game.

Hmm, I see what you are saying about RAW not actually stating when the Charge ends. I could see Bull Rush following the Attack in this case. This could be less optimal - you might have lower AC from Power Attack-Shock Trooper which could change the result of the AoO you provoke with the Bull Rush. Shock Trooper requires Improved Bull Rush, so no provoked AoO.

As for whether Bull Rush plus Attack was actually intended in the first place, I can very much see it being so; it is difficult to come to a complete and sudden stop without transferring at least some of that momentum into what you made contact with - a relatively light opponent should absolutely be knocked back, while a more massive target should cause you to rebound. You could come to a stop more gradually, but that would take more time and seems to be somewhat against what a Charge is. Eh.

I am almost tempted to rule that Charges in future games that I DM must also make a Bull Rush check - although, perhaps a Balance check (or Dexterity check?) could be made if you do not wish to Bull Rush.



If the RC rules are not about Pounce, then it's unclear what the RC rules refer to.

Dire Charge (Epic)?

[Fizban]

Was going over some notes and found some 2x str mod stuff, thought I'd bring it over. Turns out Sword and Fist really liked 2x str mod stuff, with Mantis Leap for Monks and Power Lunge (also printed in Ghostwalk) for anyone else. Then over to PHB2, the Blood-Spiked Charger tactical feat is yet another charge with 2x str bonus, except phrased in such a way that it might actually be 3-3.5x str bonus in total.

[Trey Bright]

Was going over some notes and found some 2x str mod stuff, thought I'd bring it over. Turns out Sword and Fist really liked 2x str mod stuff, with Mantis Leap for Monks and Power Lunge (also printed in Ghostwalk) for anyone else. Then over to PHB2, the Blood-Spiked Charger tactical feat is yet another charge with 2x str bonus, except phrased in such a way that it might actually be 3-3.5x str bonus in total.

Where do you see the part that might be interpreted as 3-3.5x str in Blood-Spiked Charger?