Suggestions for allowing/disallowing fiendish possession

[Matrota]

One of the players in a 3.5 campaign of mine wishes to play a character who is possessed by a fiend as per the BoVD rules. He also wished to start with a faustian pact, which I declined since I didn't want to deal with the headache of corruption points and having an entire side-campaign with a devil tempting his character.

Looking into the rules, the BoVD possession terms are almost identical to the Fiend of Posession PrC from Fiend Folio, but are usable at lower levels. As Fiend Folio is more recent, would this be similar in a sense to eratta, where you use the more recent ruling?

The player in question is one of the most infamous powergamers in our circle. He's claimed that possession is a tradeoff, like a flaw to a feat, since you can gain penalties or bonuses. Knowing him though, he will most often go along with the Fiend for the bonuses and rarely suffer the displeasure of the possessing fiend. If I do allow it, how would you reccomend I balance it?

The party is going to start at 6th level. We use pretty much every book in the edition that isn't 3rd party. We typically do mid/low op campaigns. The rest of the party lineup is a barbarian, a rogue, a warlock, and a psychic warrior. The player in question has only really mentioned that he will be playing a frontliner/midliner.

[sleepyphoenixx]

"Possessed by a fiend" is not something you can buy during character creation. It's something that happens during play.
And unless your party is evil i doubt they're okay adventuring with a guy who is willingly possessed. Even neutral characters aren't going to tolerate that.

As for the "flaws and feats" comparison, he's kind of right. Just not in the sense he's trying to imply - flaws are notorious for being a very favorable tradeoff for any build to take if they're available, to the point that the often repeated advice is "if your DM allows flaws take as many as you can".

To get to your question, i wouldn't allow it. Not unless it fits the campaign you want to play, and possibly not even then. Fiendish possession is supposed to be a problem, not a buff.
Also keep in mind the relative powerlevels of the other players. You don't want one guy to be much stronger than the rest of the party. If it looks like it's heading that way ask him to tone it down and explain why. I understand the urge to optimize, but the groups fun comes first.

Alternatively if you do allow it for some reason make it absolutely clear up front that the fiend will have its own agenda. It's not a pet. It will try to screw the guy its possessing over at some point, probably at the first opportunity where it sees benefit in doing so. That turns it into a nice plot hook, as long as you take care to not let his character hog the spotlight all the time.

Your player also seems a little shortsighted, because if you had actually allowed Faustian Pact he would've screwed himself over, seeing how the fiend would constantly be trying to get him killed to claim his soul.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two thoughts strike me immediately;

The most recent version of the possession rules is the one in FC1.

Fiendish possession is worth about 32k at minimum; more if it's a transformer possession that gives new abilities.


As for FoP, I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be the mechanical representation of how some fiends gain the possession ability. There's nothing explicitly restricting fiends from outside that class from taking possession of mortals but that's how I run it.

[SirNMN]

also keep in mind that that some of the people you got up against might be under there protection of the fiends boss

[Jiece18]

The player in question is one of the most infamous powergamers in our circle.

The player in question has only really mentioned that he will be playing a frontliner/midliner.

This would raise a red flag for me if the rest of the group isn't into heavy optimization. I would suggest asking for his exact build before the game to see if there will be any real issues. I have seen similar issues where players would pile on flaws and more or less completely ignore the downsides to them. If it is going to cause more problems than not, then tell him he can't be possessed. D&D is for a group to have fun, not one person to have his power fantasy at the expense of other's enjoyment.

[FelineArchmage]

To get to your question, i wouldn't allow it. Not unless it fits the campaign you want to play, and possibly not even then. Fiendish possession is supposed to be a problem, not a buff.




Alternatively if you do allow it for some reason make it absolutely clear up front that the fiend will have its own agenda. It's not a pet. It will try to screw the guy its possessing over at some point, probably at the first opportunity where it sees benefit in doing so. That turns it into a nice plot hook, as long as you take care to not let his character hog the spotlight all the time.



sleepyphoenixx has a point. Possession is not supposed to be a reward in most circumstances. Demons and devils are evil and a pain to deal with. They are specifically written in D&D to have their own agenda and make things difficult for others, and to relish in their pain and difficulties.

If for some reason you decide to allow the possession for the player, I would say forego the faustian pact. Have the demon/devil have its own goals and plans, and have it use the character while making the character think that it's getting what it wants. However, if having a creature like that in your campaign doesn't fit overall, skip it and have him play something more on the level of the other players.

[Quertus]

Price out the value of a benevolent fiend per Neogi slave rules*. This is the price** he must pay for willingly allowing a "friendly" fiend within.

* CR squared * 100 gp, with up to x4 price modifier based on rarity etc.
** aside from the price to his soul, of course.

[Bohandas]

I don't like the possession rules. The possession rules talk about the fiend's spirit leaving it's body, yet the rules about outsiders talking about them not having distinct bodies and spirits

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

BoVD possession rules are the old 3.0 version, the 3.5 version is in Fiendish Codex I staring on page 21.

This player is clearly looking to get a something-for-nothing tradeoff with this, i.e. zero investment on the part of his character (no feats, class features, gold, etc. spent to gain it but it) but it directly benefits the character. However, this can be an amazing opportunity for a fantastic subplot.


Allow this under the condition that the PC starts with zero ranks in Sense Motive, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: the Planes, starts with a Wisdom score of 10 or lower, and begins play with nothing bonusing his Will save apart from his base save from class levels (and only takes levels in poor-will-save classes). The reasoning behind this is that any given fiend will be looking for an easy victim, not someone knowledgeable about how fiends operate or someone able to consistently resist the fiend's influence. He's just met his current party members, his previous party were all but one slain, apparently by ghouls and a necromancer they'd previously traveled with, but he remembers none of what occurred. He also must be a medium-size race, and he must begin play with a Hat of Disguise, purchased using his starting funds.

Make it absolutely clear that you will make all decisions regarding this fiend, he has no say in the matter whatsoever. You pick what type of fiend it is, and absolutely give the fiend its own goals and personality. They're starting at 6th level so it should be no more than CR 6. Prior to/during character creation, let him know the following information about his possessing fiend based on what he's learned in character:


This fiend has transformed his arms into its own, granting him a Str score of 22. This is not modified by his race, class features, level-up bonuses, or inherent bonuses, but is increased by enhancement bonuses and the +4 profane bonus from Ally if applied to that stat.
This fiend has transformed his head into its own, a condition of granting him its strength.
He's failed his Will save against both transformations and thus he seeks to conceal the fiend's presence above all else. He uses the Hat of Disguise to conceal the transformations.
Throughout this possession he's often woken up in the morning to the sounds of panic, as ghouls with the faces and clothes of some of the local residents were running rampant in the town he'd stayed the night in. They were easily dispatched, there were very few witnesses to the cause if any, and they only described a mysterious figure (describe the necromancer from his previous party) going into the building where the people who became ghouls had been occupying. There's also some mysterious, unnatural remains in that building that must have been the one inhabitant who didn't become a ghoul. This has only happened once in a given town, and the cause has never been discovered. It's never happened while traveling with his current party.


In this case I would make it a Juvenile Nabassu (FC I), advanced to 8 HD via its Feed ability (+3 Outsider HD is +1.5 CR, rounded down to CR 6 total). This fiend has convinced the PC that it's in the Ally role as described in the possession rules, but it routinely switches to the Enemy role to debuff a saving throw's ability score before switching to the Transformer or Controller role. It's already transformed his head into its own, but he failed the Will save and uses the Hat of Disguise to appear as himself, and in-character he must make every possible effort to conceal the fiend's presence. Instead of granting spell-like abilities, this change will grant it the Death-Stealing Gaze and Feed abilities while in control of the PC, and it will also be able to use its sneak attack. It gained a feat at its 6th HD, Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) for Death-Stealing Gaze. Beginning play, he's the only person who's aware of the fiend.

The Nabassu's goals are to feed on enough humanoids to reach maturity, having already fed on at least nine and no more than eleven to have gained three HD. It abstains from feeding on "lesser" creatures (goblins, orcs, etc.) or evil creatures whose souls are already damned, instead preferring to feed on civilized humanoids, particularly those who are a provider for a family or who are clearly benefiting their community. This creature is CE after all, it wants to sow suffering and disorder. When it finds a victim during play it will take control of him while he sleeps and keep him unconscious while in control per the Controller role while it goes out to feed, he'll wake up the next morning with no clue as to what happened. It uses his Hat of Disguise to make him appear as someone else when it goes out to feed. The PC is not even aware that this fiend is taking control of his body and committing these acts.

This fiend is going to take its time, gradually devouring one innocent person after another that will be mourned by many, leaving many communities terrified by what occurred and likely never finding any culprits. Eventually word will spread about what occurred in the towns this party visited, perhaps inquisitors or law enforcement will seek them out wanting to question them about the supernatural murders and plague of ghouls that followed. This PC will be unaware of what transpired, but due to his failed save when the partial transformation occurred he'll always try to conceal the fiend. Due to the player's powergaming nature and his desire to maintain the +4 to one ability score that it grants, he'll likely never seek to part ways with the fiend.

When the party is around level 10 or once they start to catch on about the fiend's feeding it will start trying to transform his lower body, increasing his speed to 40 ft., and his arms as well if not already transformed, putting him within one transformation of being completely turned into the fiend. When the party is around level 12-14, the Nabassu will binge and try to devour enough innocent people to reach maturity. Until that point it should only feed on enough humanoids to gain two HD for every level the party gains, so six humanoids per party level.

If any party members catch him while controlled by the fiend and feeding, the fiend will try to kill that party member while still in control of him. Be sure at least a few bystanders are converted to ghouls when it takes control and delivers a surprise nonlethal sneak attack to its victim, immediately knocking them unconscious so it can feed. Any PC that confronts him will be flanked by a ghoul so he can sneak attack, and it will fight using the PC's abilities, but also its level-draining gaze attack and sneak attacks. An alarm will likely be raised, at which time the fiend will try to blame the other PC for the murder, especially if that PC is already dead.

This is sort of what happened to his previous party, one of them followed him but he didn't notice, and reported back to the rest of the party that he was the cause for the murders and ghouls. The party confronted him outside of town, the fiend took over and killed them all, it knocked the necromancer unconscious and devoured him leaving no legible remains. His former party members as ghouls were sent to wander off looking for trouble. Still in control of him, the fiend reported back to the town that the source of the murders and ghouls was the wizard he previously traveled with who turned out to be a necromancer, when confronted the necromancer killed the rest of the party and escaped.

Once the Nabassu reaches maturity, it will attempt to fully transform the PC into itself if it hasn't already done so. Once mature and fully transformed, it will Plane Shift to the Abyss in the PC's transformed body, where it will leave his body to return to its own, now fully matured body. This will force the fully transformed PC to make a Fort save or die as described by the possession Transformation rules. The Nabassu will attempt to collect his soul, which occurs automatically if he fails that save, which it may intend put back into his transformed body to create a new juvenile Nabassu that has no memories of his previous life.

The PCs should be led to believe that the necromancer that this PC previously traveled with is following him, committing murders and turning people into ghouls at not quite every town they stop in. If they catch on and confront the PC about it, he'll of course try to deny the fiend's presence as that's what the possession and transformation rules dictate. If left with no other choice, the fiend will take control of him and try to kill the party. If it succeeds it will again blame the necromancer for their deaths, otherwise it will fight to this PC's death and simply return to its body and seek to possess someone else. If the PC manages to get the fiend removed or gets raised after he's killed and it leaves, he'll no longer have the transformation benefits and his character will be back to his normal Str score, which he'll most likely have made a dump stat on character creation.

This will be a fantastic subplot that's basically guaranteed to leading to this PC's death or at least getting seriously nerfed. I think this will add a lot of fun to your game, and it should teach the player a valuable lesson.

[Bohandas]

I, again, reccommend ignoring the following passage:

"While a fend is in incorporeal form, its corporeal body (assuming it has one) lies senseless, as if in a state of suspended animation. The body does not require food or air, but direct damage or exposure to an extreme environment can kill it. A fiend can roam incorporeally as long as it desires, but it dies if its body is destroyed. If a fiend’s body is attacked or moved while it is in this state, the fend becomes immediately aware of the tampering and can return to its body as a free action. Furthermore, successfully casting dispel magic (or a similar effect) on its body forces it to return instantly to that vessel." (FC1 pg21-22)

and simply have the fiend become incorporeal, because the rule as written pointlessly contradicts the description of the outsider type in the Monster Manual pg 313:

"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. "

in addition to pointlesslyy contradicting the way possession is depicted in every possession-based horror or fantasy movie I've ever seen (The Exorcist, The Evil Dead series, Scary Movie 2, Winchester, Little Nicky, Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters 2, A Haunted House, Naruto, several episodes of Star Trek, etc. etc. etc.)

[SirNMN]

Allow this under the condition that the PC starts with zero ranks in Sense Motive, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: the Planes, starts with a Wisdom score of 10 or lower, and begins play with nothing bonusing his Will save apart from his base save from class levels (and only takes levels in poor-will-save classes). The reasoning behind this is that any given fiend will be looking for an easy victim, not someone knowledgeable about how fiends operate or someone able to consistently resist the fiend's influence. He's just met his current party members, his previous party were all but one slain, apparently by ghouls and a necromancer they'd previously traveled with, but he remembers none of what occurred. He also must be a medium-size race, and he must begin play with a Hat of Disguise, purchased using his starting funds.

I would say have him be allowed to take what ever class he want going forward, but all past have the low will save. It is reasonable line of thinking that he got duped picked out as an easy victim, but he could have started to look for information on just what is happening especially since it started transforming him

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would say have him be allowed to take what ever class he want going forward, but all past have the low will save. It is reasonable line of thinking that he got duped picked out as an easy victim, but he could have started to look for information on just what is happening especially since it started transforming him

That's what I meant, start play with only poor Will save class levels and no ranks in those skills, but no restriction on what he takes moving forward.