Pathfinder 2nd edition (5e)

[Drache64]

I prefer Pathfinder over 5e, but I have to admit 5e has some great things in regards to proficiency bonus, and sorcery points.

I'm thinking of homebrewing a some elements of 5e into my next Pathfinder campaign.

3 changes:
1 a straight up adoption of sorcerery points and abandon typical metamagic feats.

2 BAB for all classes = level, and call this a proficiency bonus.

3. Skills: no more ranks. When your class says you gain X ranks per level, you instead pick that many skills to gain proficiency with. Cross class skills only get 1/2 proficiency.
Ex: if a barbarian would get 4 skill ranks (4+intelligence modifier) he then picks 4 skills to gain proficiency with. He picks:
Acrobatics, perception, swim and performance.
At level 6 he would have 6+ability mod for every skill except performance which would get 3+ability mod.

Thoughts, recommendations? Things to consider?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Proficiency is nice because it reduces the number of progressions you have to keep track of; converting it directly to BAB is likely to cause issues. I mean, for a start, iterative attacks; touch spells will also become crazy accurate. Saves, meanwhile, will still be keying off a completely different track, and there will be a thousand small fiddly bonuses because that's how Pathfinder rolls. IF you want to go down that route, I'd suggest importing Extra Attack as a class feature for every full and medium-BAB class, at the appropriate levels.

You're also offering a significant nerf to skill-users, basically reverting to the 3.5 paradigm of "class skills or suck." Is there a reason? You're also losing a lot of granularity... my suggestion would be "one skill at ranks=level or two skills at ranks=1/2 level" and leave the class skill bonus alone. Also, you should think about what happens when you multiclass.

[johnbragg]

Things I'd put in PAthfinder 2.0, after having played some 5E.

1. A self-healing mechanic of some sort--Healing Surges / Hit Dice / Second Wind scaled to your max HP. Your traditional HP are how tough it is to drop you in a single fight, from Max to 0. That doesn't account for how many times you can do that in a day--that's your number of Second Winds. (I'd tie it to BAB as well as Con, so that the fighty-er types get more of it.)

2. Lots of spells having a duration of Concentration, with Concentration on one spell being a free action. Does a lot to limit caster supremacy if they can only keep one summon, or one BFC spell up at a time.

3. Boss monster abilities written into the game. Legendary actions, lair effects, videogame-style phased boss fights.

4. I don't know if Pathfinder 2.0 should do this, but I think switching the Barbarian from MAX 1HPA to "takes half damage from weapons" was good. In general, narrow the effectiveness gap between 2 Handed Power Attack and, well, every other fighting style.

5. Not something 5E did, but something I'm kicking around. Options that scale at 1/2 BAB--Shield Mastery and Swashbuckling, (1/2 BAB to AC), Weapon Specialization (1/2 BAB to hit and damage).

6. Instead of being feat taxes, BAB +1 unlocks Power Attack and Combat Expertise for everyone.

7. Genuine Tank options that, subject to opposed rolls of some kind, force enemies to attack YOU instead of your allies.

8. At-will ranged blasting for casters. I'd actually scale this back from 5E cantrips--they should do less damage than a mundane with a bow. I'm toying with Arcane STrike, one point per level plus casting stat.

That's all for now.

EDIT: For now wasn't long. I think OP is going backwards with skills. PF class skill bonus is good.
If you want to keep it simple, it's easy to do that--you get 4 skill points per level, max out 4 skills. But PF allows a 5th level barbarian to max Perception and Intimidate (5+3 = +8 each), and be very competent (1+3 = +4) at Acrobatics, Handle Animal, Climb, Knowledge: Nature, Swim, Survival and Ride, and sink one rank each into Perform (wardrum), Heal and Sense Motive.

[MeeposFire]

I prefer how 5e handles attacks over 3e but if you are going to change 3e type games to using BAB being equal across the board and it being at full value then you need to consider a whole host of other changes. Remember in 5e warrior types get value from things like extra attack that many caster do not get normally but in 3e those extra attacks are baked into the BAB progression so you will need to consider making some changes. In addition are you planning on having things like touch AC still in this setup? I ask because one of the reasons touch AC exists is to allow a spellcaster to actually hit with spells despite having very low BAB.

I like the idea f tinkering around but just remember that you probably have to make more changes than you think to get what you want in a game as complex as PF.

[Ignimortis]

I prefer Pathfinder over 5e, but I have to admit 5e has some great things in regards to proficiency bonus, and sorcery points.

I'm thinking of homebrewing a some elements of 5e into my next Pathfinder campaign.

3 changes:
1 a straight up adoption of sorcerery points and abandon typical metamagic feats.

2 BAB for all classes = level, and call this a proficiency bonus.

3. Skills: no more ranks. When your class says you gain X ranks per level, you instead pick that many skills to gain proficiency with. Cross class skills only get 1/2 proficiency.
Ex: if a barbarian would get 4 skill ranks (4+intelligence modifier) he then picks 4 skills to gain proficiency with. He picks:
Acrobatics, perception, swim and performance.
At level 6 he would have 6+ability mod for every skill except performance which would get 3+ability mod.

Thoughts, recommendations? Things to consider?

1) Not sure how this would work, but this borders on returning DMM+turn stacking to all casters, which is NOT a good thing.
2) A terrible idea. At high levels of optimization, this won't do anything, and at low levels it just removes one of the few things martials have going for them - hitting reliably.
3) Skill ranks the PF way are much better than 5e way. Granularity is key, and you can have some small proficiency in something without permanently wasting a slot on it.


Things I'd put in PAthfinder 2.0, after having played some 5E.

1. A self-healing mechanic of some sort--Healing Surges / Hit Dice / Second Wind scaled to your max HP. Your traditional HP are how tough it is to drop you in a single fight, from Max to 0. That doesn't account for how many times you can do that in a day--that's your number of Second Winds. (I'd tie it to BAB as well as Con, so that the fighty-er types get more of it.)

2. Lots of spells having a duration of Concentration, with Concentration on one spell being a free action. Does a lot to limit caster supremacy if they can only keep one summon, or one BFC spell up at a time.

3. Boss monster abilities written into the game. Legendary actions, lair effects, videogame-style phased boss fights.

4. I don't know if Pathfinder 2.0 should do this, but I think switching the Barbarian from MAX 1HPA to "takes half damage from weapons" was good. In general, narrow the effectiveness gap between 2 Handed Power Attack and, well, every other fighting style.

5. Not something 5E did, but something I'm kicking around. Options that scale at 1/2 BAB--Shield Mastery and Swashbuckling, (1/2 BAB to AC), Weapon Specialization (1/2 BAB to hit and damage).

6. Instead of being feat taxes, BAB +1 unlocks Power Attack and Combat Expertise for everyone.

7. Genuine Tank options that, subject to opposed rolls of some kind, force enemies to attack YOU instead of your allies.

8. At-will ranged blasting for casters. I'd actually scale this back from 5E cantrips--they should do less damage than a mundane with a bow. I'm toying with Arcane STrike, one point per level plus casting stat.

That's all for now.

EDIT: For now wasn't long. I think OP is going backwards with skills. PF class skill bonus is good.
If you want to keep it simple, it's easy to do that--you get 4 skill points per level, max out 4 skills. But PF allows a 5th level barbarian to max Perception and Intimidate (5+3 = +8 each), and be very competent (1+3 = +4) at Acrobatics, Handle Animal, Climb, Knowledge: Nature, Swim, Survival and Ride, and sink one rank each into Perform (wardrum), Heal and Sense Motive.

1) Might be a good idea, reduce dependence on healing items and spells to keep going.
2) Not every spell with a duration needs concentration. 5e overdid this - while maintaining both Greater Invisibility and Overland Flight can be quite unbalancing, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to throw around both a Bane and a Bless simultaneously aside from bounded accuracy, which PF doesn't have.
3) Good idea. I'm already using this, because almost any new player can take videogamey cues.
4) 2H Power Attack is still king in 5e, just less so. Two-Weapon fighting is bad past level 5, Archery is mediocre, S&B is good for once because +2 AC actually matters. This needs a rebalance, but 5e's solution isn't the way to approach it. Make TWF less feat-intensive, give Archers their version of PA, make shield bonus scale with BAB, I guess? Quick and simple, point out the flaws if you want.
5+6) Good ideas. Most +X combat feats should scale with BAB. Most combat maneuvers shouldn't take feat taxes to be usable.
7) 5e doesn't do this, at best it has an option to impose disadvantage to hit your allies instead of you.
8) Infinite cantrips are already something PF does. Ray of Frost, Acid Splash - add some scaling that it's not completely irrelevant at levels after 1, and you're golden.