Paladin/warlock controversy

[Pjohnnyko]

I'm a pretty new player, not well versed in any class but my own, I am playing an OotA paladin, currently lvl 5. I mentioned to my party that I was interested in the Spell Sniper feat to get some decent range. I plan on taking Eldritch Blast as my cantrip.
I got some push back from one member of my party in particular. Their reasoning being paladin and warlock are the least compatible classes, deities aren't cool with demonic pacts. My DM didn't fully agree with him stating there are non demonic pacts but if I did this it would have a dramatic impact on my character.

So my question is how can I spin this to have it make the most sense and not fully upset my party member or my diety?
I'm not even multiclassing as a lock, I'm just taking one little cantrip, =p nonetheless, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful here.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Tell your party member to get stuffed and mind their own character (sorry, players who try to police others' roleplay really push my buttons).

Maybe try to press your DM for more details. What kind of "dramatic impact" are they talking about? It might be something you're actually cool with, it might be something you can negotiate over, at the very least it suggests how they understand what is happening and that's a point of departure for argumentation.

[E’Tallitnics]

You don't need to since you're not actually multi classing into Warlock. You're simply taking a feat!

Tell them that you beseeched your current deity to give you, the nova-capable but ranged attack lacking Pally a decent ranged attack.

BOOM MY SON have the formidable EB and I'll even guide your bolts so you can ignore all but full cover!

Also feel free to re-skin the Eldritch Blast into "(Energy) Bolt of [Deity]".

[danpit2991]

you don't need to since you're not actually multi classing into warlock. You're simply taking a feat!

Tell them that you beseeched your current deity to give you, the nova-capable but ranged attack lacking pally a decent ranged attack.

Boom my son have the formidable eb and i'll even guide your bolts so you can ignore all but full cover!

Also feel free to re-skin the eldritch blast into "(energy) bolt of [deity]".

yup!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Talamare]

Warlocks are NOT Demonic Pacts.

Warlocks are Servants of Powerful Beings.
One could even make an argument that in a sense; All Paladins are Technically Warlocks.
Hell, the PHB even mentions that All Clerics are Warlocks as well.

Warlocks seek Knowledge and they seek Power to achieve a Goal.

Alternatively... Depending on the Warlock Pact you chose...
You could RP it that you were deceived into believing that it was your God granting you power.

[Caelic]

Well, setting aside the Celestial warlock (which, I would suggest, was created for the primary reason of giving paladins a one hundred percent compatible warlock patron!) there's also the old standby: Oath of the Ancients/Archfey. Not all warlock patrons are demons, or even evil.

[jaappleton]

Tell ‘em to bite your shiny metal ass.

[Naanomi]

Paladins are not tied to Gods in this edition anyways

[JakOfAllTirades]

Whoever's giving you "pushback" on this idea simply has no idea what they're talking about. And you can tell them you got that from a D&D expert on the internet!

You're welcome.

[Joe the Rat]

Sorry, what does a deity have to do with this? You make an Oath, and are empowered from there, no church required. Sure, you can have an associated temple, but it's not necessary. You fight for ideals, not deities.

But oh! You're Oath of the Ancients! You are very much in line with nature and art and smell strongly of druids and fey. And who else has the stink of the fair folk about them? Warlocks with Archfey Patrons. (The fluff alignment of OotA and Archfey is a well heeled topic)

Or you could make it tragically moot by pointing to Celestial Warlocks - who get their powers from the Upper Plains. I doubt a good-aligned deity who you've decided to indulge in a little Oath management would object to a subordinate doling out a bit more power.

[Telwar]

Tell ‘em to bite your shiny metal ass.

This is always an applicable response, but especially here.

[Davrix]

Seriously link this post to the guy so he can see all the hate he is getting cause I want to tell him he is DUMB.

First - your taking a feat so this has zero impact on your class other than you simply learn a spell it does not matter where it comes from.

two - it does force damage so you cant even argue its of a evil nature

three - Multi classing into warlocks is a great feature for paladins now even if you make it with a Demon. But sense you are a druid nature paladin you can easily make one with the arch fey which is perfectly in line with your character. But honestly any of them work just fine as long as you spin it right. Oh and pacts do not have to be made willing at times, sort of a fun role-play aspect if you want your character that way. Either way, they mesh VERY well together and this guy can go dunk his head in some black pudding.

[strangebloke]

Plus, who says deities (even good ones) particularly hate demons? Sure, there's the 'ol Tiamat/Bahamut grudge match, but does Bahamut have any official statement about the rest of demonkind beyond a general "Yeah, they're bad." One of his appointed servants making a deal might be seen as a conflict of interest, but...

Hey, as far as heis concerned, if the guy trades away his health or something to get some sick bonus knowledge from Asmodeus and uses that to prevent the rise of Tiamat, there's no real reason to be pissed about that.

This is of course in addition to all the points already mentioned.

[the secret fire]

Meh...Warlock dips for every damned Cha-based class smell of cheddar and are annoyingly common, but if your DM is good with it, the other players at the table should shut it, especially as you aren't even taking the class, just one of its cantrips.

[Pjohnnyko]

Haha! YES! I love all of these responses! My DM is totally cool, he'll go for one of these options for sure.

It's not just for my benefit but the party's. We don't have a lot of ranged damage, our Ranger is a very absentee party member.

[Phoenix042]

There are celestial warlocks.

Besides, who said that any given warlock voluntarily agreed to their pact?

What about a child forced into a pact with an extra-planar entity by their parents, and who finds that no matter how hard they fight their patron's wishes, they somehow end up serving their schemes nonetheless. Like he tells you to bring about the death of some important person, and you go try to save and protect that person, but somehow end up getting them killed and your patron is like "Ah, good work, here's your increased power. Next, I'd like you to..."

Policing other people's concepts because you can only see each class as belonging to one basic character is silly.

There are a million ways to play a warlock, and just as many for paladins. Some of those clash (which could be fun) and some of them mesh (which can also be fun).

Play your character your own way, not the way that your fellow players or DM tell you to. A paladin warlock is perfectly fine.

[Fri]

The strangest thing here, is your paladin is specifically an oath of the ancient paladin, otherwise known as fey knight or green knight. Who is specifically mentioned have oath older than gods or whatever. I can see it in some conservative way if your paladin is an oath of devotion paladin, but oath of ancient paladin? They're closer to feys rather than gods.

Second thing is, some Warlock specifically have fey patrons. They literally have a patron named "Archfey"

An oota paladin/archfey warlock is the most completely making sense multiclass ever from IC pov.

So my conclusion is, this party member of yours don't know anything about paladin or warlock. Like, at all.

[sflame56]

I'm a pretty new player, not well versed in any class but my own, I am playing an OotA paladin, currently lvl 5. I mentioned to my party that I was interested in the Spell Sniper feat to get some decent range. I plan on taking Eldritch Blast as my cantrip.
I got some push back from one member of my party in particular. Their reasoning being paladin and warlock are the least compatible classes, deities aren't cool with demonic pacts. My DM didn't fully agree with him stating there are non demonic pacts but if I did this it would have a dramatic impact on my character.

So my question is how can I spin this to have it make the most sense and not fully upset my party member or my diety?
I'm not even multiclassing as a lock, I'm just taking one little cantrip, =p nonetheless, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful here.

Best thing I would say is talk to your dm first in private and let them know paladins in this edition don't need a deity but deal only with an oath they take. Even if they did you can still go archfey or celestial since those aren't evil at all. Warlocks make their pacts for extra power. Also know that going warlock won't break any of your oath features. If you break your oath that is when **** hits the fan. As for the warlock levels if you go two you get two short rest spell slots and can grab an invocation that already doubles the range of eldritch but this is up to you.

If the player keep arguing with you about going warlock levels talk to your dm. If they think that player is an issue they will ask them to leave. If the dm won't do anything think about looking for a new game where people won't yell at you for the class you want to play.

[Kane0]

Hold up.

You're an Ancients Pally that want to take the Spell Sniper feat, so you can contribute to the party at range. You want to pick EB as your cantrip, presumably because its good, uses Cha and corresponds with the benefits of the feat.

Your party member objects to this, stating that having Eldritch Blast suddenly means you've sold your soul to a demon or something? Eh?

Your party member is conflating a warlock cantrip with being a warlock, before we even get into the pact BS he's carrying on about. Does a Bard have to know how to forage and hunt in order to learn Hunter's Mark? I think not!

And even IF you wanted to actually get into taking real Warlock levels, then there is a convenient Fey patron that lines up perfectly with Ancients paladin anyways, as many as stated already.

So tell him to complain after he's read the book, and complain in a way that doesn't make him look like an ass to both the DM and the rest of the players! You aren't even doing this for an optimising power trip!

[Unoriginal]

Even if you DID multiclass into Warlock, the Warlock isn't a lackey to their Patron. Not inherently, at least.

Strictly speaking, the Warlock and the Patron only require to have an one-time deal where the Patron gives a spark of power in exchange for something (often minor). Them the Warlock can do whatever with that spark, as it's theirs now.

The Warlock's powers come from studying weird magic. Sometime the Patron is also the teacher, but it's not required.

[SaintRidley]

Well, setting aside the Celestial warlock (which, I would suggest, was created for the primary reason of giving paladins a one hundred percent compatible warlock patron!) there's also the old standby: Oath of the Ancients/Archfey. Not all warlock patrons are demons, or even evil.

And sometimes you just wake up and you've been a bit touched in the head and there's something whispering in the back of your mind, but you have no idea if it's real or what it really wants, just that now you have a little telepathy. Old Ones! They know how to party.

[Chugger]

Whoever is telling you this crap - tell them they must have played an older version of DnD and are still stuck in it, cuz 5e changed _everything_.

Like others have told you, spin it so it works - 5e is about enabling you - about empowering you - and "tiny brained wipers of other peoples's bottoms" (like the person trying to shut you down) have no business trying to boss you around. Be strong. Fight for what you want.

[ImproperJustice]

Anyone who has read this far notice that the TC got the responses he needed a few posts back? :)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Some DM's have tons of experience from past edititons and carry a bit of it into this one.
To help smooth that over, here is a list of Fey Dieties or Arch Fey or whatever:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fey_deities

Some of them like Oberon might even fit in well with your Charactef concept if the DM wants there to be a reason you got these powers. Maybe the DM is looking for plot points

[Citan]

I'm a pretty new player, not well versed in any class but my own, I am playing an OotA paladin, currently lvl 5. I mentioned to my party that I was interested in the Spell Sniper feat to get some decent range. I plan on taking Eldritch Blast as my cantrip.
I got some push back from one member of my party in particular. Their reasoning being paladin and warlock are the least compatible classes, deities aren't cool with demonic pacts. My DM didn't fully agree with him stating there are non demonic pacts but if I did this it would have a dramatic impact on my character.

So my question is how can I spin this to have it make the most sense and not fully upset my party member or my diety?
I'm not even multiclassing as a lock, I'm just taking one little cantrip, =p nonetheless, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful here.
Tell the other player to go back and read PHB before he starts minding other things than his own business.

Not only is he a bit too intrusive for his role (although I also understand that some people really like to respect a settings, so he was legitimate to voice concerns, just not in that particular way), he's also plain wrong.
Spell Sniper feat holds absolutely no ties with any of the class among which pick a cantrip. They just felt compelled to write all available fullcasters black on white simply because it was needed to determine the ability score that is used for it.

But absolutely nothing in the feat description gives any hint to say that there are "fluff ties" involved.
And I think it was either because they didn't feel any precision needed, or maybe on purpose precisely to "fall back" on your original class: like, if you were a Wizard taking the feat for EB, maybe you would say you found some writings of another caster and managed to decipher them to create it. If you were a Cleric, maybe you would tell that you pleaded to your divinity to get another kind of power because you need it to accomplish his quest.
If you were a Sorcerer, then maybe you just spent months training to shape your raw energy in such a fashion after witnessing its use (like Sangoku with Kamehameha, except it was instant for him ^^).
Etc etc...


Anyone who has read this far notice that the TC got the responses he needed a few posts back? :)
Errr... ooops?:smallbiggrin::smallredface:

[bc56]

The big thing is, you're not a warlock. You didn't even take magic initiate in warlock. Your character does not need a pact for EB. A warlock can get other classes cantrips with Pact of the Tome without joining those classes, so it's fine for a paladin to get a warlock cantrip.

[sambojin]

Nowhere in magic initiate does is say that you had anything to do with the class, diety, power, or study group that your spells came from. It's remarkably similar to spell sniper in that way.

Sure, you can RP it that way if you want. But there's nothing saying you must go to a library, temple or cult to have the benefits of that feat. You could have just had an awesome dream about magic, and when you woke up, you could do magic.

Depends on the gameworld and DM. But feats don't really have those sorts of stipulations to them. Rather than getting stronger, quicker, more resilient, smarter, wiser or more charismatic overnight, with no extra training at all, you woke up and could do "this".

But wanting people to RP some feats or ASIs and not others is pretty silly. It's either all or none. But some are easier to RP, because you're essentially doing that every day of your adventuring career. It's like on the job training. But that doesn't mean you weren't thinking about eldritch blasting stuff that entire time. You just couldn't do it until you feated into it. Druids can't wildshape for a bit either. Nor can fighters hit people with the handle of their halberd, until they take a feat.

It's just a part of the cognitive dissonance that is DnD. The roleplay reason that you can now do magic *IS* "I went up a level and used it to give me magic. We're playing DnD. That's how this gameworld works, at its very core." Power and abilities come in neatly level sized lumps, it's not a gradual thing. Everything up to the point that you went up a level *is* the training you needed to be able to do *that thing*. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but that's DnD for you.

Did you have to RP the hell out of your oath before you were allowed to take it? Or was it just a choice you made, and now you're expected to use it properly in the gameworld?

[Ganymede]

Yeah, the Paladin/Warlock comes with some baggage. It has such a nice mechanical synergy that it takes extra work convincing your DM and fellow players that you're not just going for the bennies.

One thing to remember is that Paladins get their power through their oath. That may tie in with a deity or other spiritual entity, but it does not have to. For instance, a Vengeance Paladin might sustain herself solely on his desire to undo the works of her foe. With a paladin like that, it is plausible she might strike a bargain with an entity that can help enable the vengeance sought. Heck, imagine a King Arthur style Devotion Paladin that is also blessed by an archfey akin to the Lady of the Lake.

You can certainly make it work, but it does take a bit more effort to convince others that you're not making a bizarre roleplay choice just for the mechanical benefits.

[sambojin]

The best (and most accurate, RAW) way of looking at spell sniper and magic initiate is like being a little bit Sorcerous. Not enough to be a Sorcerer, no connection to a bloodline or crazy arse wildmaging, or to a god/entity, but the power was in you all the time, latent.

As you got more powerful, that power revealed itself. This power can be in many different forms (IE, off different lists and using different stats), but it doesn't need any connection to the class that your form of this power takes.

If you want a reasonable RP reason for Eldritch Blast being a thing you now do, well, you've been smiting things while hitting them with a weapon as hard as you could for several levels now. That has slowly taken on the form of you now being able to do it at range. As accurate and as forceful as your melee attacks, but less damaging and only as force damage rather than radiant, due to the effort you have to put into it (only one use of e. blast a round, instead of two attacks, and no +Cha damage where you would have had +Str/Dex damage in melee). As you level up, you'll get better at ranged smiting stuff. And you'll get better at melee smiting stuff too.

Smiting stuff is what pallies do.

It's not exactly a huge leap in belief to assume that some pallies learned how to do it at a good distance. It's force damage because you're using your might and magical charisma, not your radiant zeal, to do it.

I mean, you've already got magic, more powerful than a mere cantrip. But even if you grabbed MI:warlock and took Hex, E. Blast and something else, the same would apply. Or anything from any other spell list with Spell Sniper or MI. It doesn't make you that class. And there's usually a reasonable explanation for anything in DnD, if you're creative enough. One cantrip means so little that I'd be surprised if anyone ever had a problem with you dropping an ASI for it. It sounds like your friend should read the feat description. If you were multiclassing into Warlock, he might have a point. But you're not.

[Dankus Memakus]

I'm a pretty new player, not well versed in any class but my own, I am playing an OotA paladin, currently lvl 5. I mentioned to my party that I was interested in the Spell Sniper feat to get some decent range. I plan on taking Eldritch Blast as my cantrip.
I got some push back from one member of my party in particular. Their reasoning being paladin and warlock are the least compatible classes, deities aren't cool with demonic pacts. My DM didn't fully agree with him stating there are non demonic pacts but if I did this it would have a dramatic impact on my character.

So my question is how can I spin this to have it make the most sense and not fully upset my party member or my diety?
I'm not even multiclassing as a lock, I'm just taking one little cantrip, =p nonetheless, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful here.

I would point out that the best warlock fit for an OotA paladin would be a feylock and there's a whole bunch of fey who are just as concerned with protecting the light as a Ancients paladin...then if i were you I'd proceed to multiclass into warlock to prove to the other player that this is d&d and as long as the dm approves I do what I want (however probably best not to upset your friends :P)

[E’Tallitnics]

The best (and most accurate, RAW) way of looking at spell sniper and magic initiate is like being a little bit Sorcerous. Not enough to be a Sorcerer, no connection to a bloodline or crazy arse wildmaging, or to a god/entity, but the power was in you all the time, latent.

As you got more powerful, that power revealed itself. This power can be in many different forms (IE, off different lists and using different stats), but it doesn't need any connection to the class that your form of this power takes.

This is a great explanation of how those feats emerge during a character’s career / the campaign.

[LordNibbler]

Tell ‘em to bite your shiny metal ass.
Also acceptable would be:
Bite my glorious golden ass
or
Bite my splintery wooden ass

[Davrix]

Bite my glorious golden ass


So stealing this for my golden scaled dragonborn paladin

who is probably taking a hexblade dip sometime soon. Oh god the freak out this player at the OP table would have hearing this.

[MxKit]

And sometimes you just wake up and you've been a bit touched in the head and there's something whispering in the back of your mind, but you have no idea if it's real or what it really wants, just that now you have a little telepathy. Old Ones! They know how to party.

That's amazing. Can I quote it for my signature? :smallbiggrin:

[furby076]

Order of ancients pally plus fey lock = rp compatibility. You made a pact with a fey creature that supports your nature god (if you have one). Is your friend a dnd player from previous editions? If so, remind him that 5e is not the same edition, and paladins operate under different mechanics for rp... that and to mind his own business

[Asmotherion]

Your DM's world, your DM's Lore.

The other player needs to mind their own buisness. For all you know you could be making a small pact with a Clestial who Serves your Deity to learn the arcane secrets of channeling the Forces of the Univerce, in order to better, and more efficiently serve your God.

Also, for all they know, (because if they know about Eldritch Blast, without being an actual Warlock or knowing one, they are activelly metagaming), all you do is say a few Arcane Worlds, and use a powerful magical Beam of Magical Force that crushes opponents. Unless they suffer from Arcane Phobia of some sort, and view all arcane magic as vile, it would be weird for them to feel uncomfortable about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tell ‘em to bite your shiny metal ass.

Tell your party member to get stuffed and mind their own character (sorry, players who try to police others' roleplay really push my buttons).

Whoever's giving you "pushback" on this idea simply has no idea what they're talking about. And you can tell them you got that from a D&D expert on the internet!

Sorry, what does a deity have to do with this? You make an Oath, and are empowered from there, no church required. Sure, you can have an associated temple, but it's not necessary. You fight for ideals, not deities.
Or you could make it tragically moot by pointing to Celestial Warlocks - who get their powers from the Upper Plains. I doubt a good-aligned deity who you've decided to indulge in a little Oath management would object to a subordinate doling out a bit more power.


Meh...Warlock dips for every damned Cha-based class smell of cheddar and are annoyingly common, but if your DM is good with it, the other players at the table should shut it, especially as you aren't even taking the class, just one of its cantrips.


So tell him to complain after he's read the book, and complain in a way that doesn't make him look like an ass to both the DM and the rest of the players! I agree with you, but I doubt that the player can do the bolded part. Some people can't help themselves.


5e is about enabling you - about empowering you - and "tiny brained wipers of other peoples's bottoms" (like the person trying to shut you down) have no business trying to boss you around. Be strong. Fight for what you want. Amen.

Dear Pjohnnyko:

All of the above said, since you are playing a paladin, it will be even cooler to make all of the above points in a Kill 'em With Kindness manner. Phrasing your response in something like a divine smite of politeness will make their rudeness stand out ever more starkly. :smallwink:

1. Don't get mad, get even
2. Actually, don't get even, get ahead.

[Socratov]

Whoever is telling you this crap - tell them they must have played an older version of DnD and are still stuck in it, cuz 5e changed _everything_.
[snip]
except for the druid and his armour...

Anyway, on topic, yes, the others have succinctly put: the other player has no say in your character whatsoever. Don't mind him and tell him to sit on it and rotate.

[SaintRidley]

That's amazing. Can I quote it for my signature? :smallbiggrin:

Sure. Knock yourself out.

[Squiddish]

People saying paladins and warlocks are the least compatible classes are straight-up wrong. With how well the pacts and oaths line up, especially after Xanathar's, it's starting to seem like the designers set out to specifically prove those people wrong.

Oath of the ancients lines up very well with fey patron. Oath of devotion or redemption, great match for celestial. Oath of conquest, already in-canon have a faction making pacts with devils for power.

They aren't just compatible in the sense off not contradicting, they're compatible in the sense of actually fitting together perfectly if you play your cards right.

Also, of course, the feat doesn't mean you've made a pact with such a being. Maybe just drawn a smidgen of extraplanar power.

[Jerrykhor]

They might be right if this was Warcraft... but its not bloody Warcraft, so tell them to stuff it.

Your friend sound like the type to tell others that paladins can only be lawful good, and can only behave in a certain way.

[GreyBlack]

I'm sorry, but what?

So. Let's look at the Paladin subclasses and see if they're compatible with Warlock at all.

Ancient: You've made an oath to ancient powers. As such, why wouldn't you make a pact with fey guardians to better implement your abilities?

Vengeance: If your entire modus operandi is to exact vengeance, why wouldn't you make a pact with something that can better enable you to enact that vengeance?

Devotion: This one is a little tricky. Why would you make a pact with an entity other than your deity or a servant of your deity? To my mind, this one only works if your character is going to be evil: you are devoted to your deity and are willing to make pacts with their underlings tobetter show your devotion.

That's just a 5 minute off the top of my head justification. Given some thought, I'm sure you can do better.

[Oramac]

Tell ‘em to bite your shiny metal ass.

I literally LOL'd at this! Well said, my friend.

============================

Anyway, to the OP, I'd say story comes before build. What in-character reasons would your character have for making such a pact? What motivations does he have that push him in that direction? What things in his past make him open to the idea of having a patron?

You don't necessarily sell your soul to be a warlock, which is nice. There's a lot of good suggestions above, to which I'll only ad this: If you take the Celestial Pact, and assuming you have a particular deity as a paladin, it's possible your character's Deity IS his patron.

[Easy_Lee]

Paladins are not tied to Gods in this edition anyways

+1

In this edition, paladins don't serve deities, they make vows. Help from a complementary patron would actually assist a paladin in pursuing his vow. As a result, the multiclass is just as lore-friendly as rogue-fighter.

[rbstr]

Devotion: This one is a little tricky. Why would you make a pact with an entity other than your deity or a servant of your deity? To my mind, this one only works if your character is going to be evil: you are devoted to your deity and are willing to make pacts with their underlings tobetter show your devotion

Because you don't have a deity. There's no such requirement for any paladin to be in service of an entity at all. The Oaths are sets of ideals that the Paladin holds and their belief in those ideals gives them power. It's not granted by anyone. If a pact conforms to those ideals there's really nothing in the way at all.

Similarly there's nothing that says the warlock sold their soul or is slave to their patron.

But the thing here is that we're talking about Magic Initiate. It's not the same as taking a level in another class at all. Sure, rp-origins might match up:Maybe you studied to learn some magic, maybe it was innate and you discovered it, maybe some entity empowered you or taught you for a little favor or on a whim.
But nothing about the feat requires that you make a pact like a Warlock to take Magic Initiate: Warlock.

[Vaz]

I'm playing a Paladin of Conquest/Warlock Hexblade. He's a Paladin of an Order of Knights, whose veneration of the deity of War was corrupted by the presence of a Sentient Evil Weapon recovered by the Leader of the Order. Works perfectly fine, given that the gods are usually hands off.

I have another player in a game I'm running who is a Cleric/Warlock, who is a Cleric of Life, but whose patron is specifically a Ki'Rin (Celestial Patron) Champion who gifted a heartscale to save the life of the Cleric.

I don't see either of these to be an issue; mainly because the stats on a class sheet don't mean ****, given that they're essentially a representation of what the character in the setting can do. Gandalf isn't a Paladin, he's an Istari, Grey Wizard, whose abilities are best represented by the meta-knowledge of the chassis titled by some dude in an office "Paladin".