Help with weird Spheres e10 idea?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I’ve got this nagging idea for an e10 Spheres of Might/Power game where 10-level Prestige Classes can be taken as base classes with the restriction that while prereqs are waived for entry, you must qualify for them (taking the feats or skill points, etc) ASAP or lose their abilities. In order to let them stand on their own, I want to give the Full BAB PrCs Combat Training (probably need to decide progression on case-to-case basis) and the PrCs that progress casting their own (with a fractional Caster Level based on how many levels they lose).

I’m not sure if this is the best way to do it though, so input is very much desired.

One alternative I considered is waiving prereqs entirely, banning non-PrC classes, and giving Might progression based on BAB to everyone with both kinds of talents gained whenever a full point of BAB/CL respectively is gained. It’s a weird, high power idea with its own charm, but what do you think?

[Hellpyre]

E6 or E10 interacts a bit oddly with the Spheres systems, in that feats can provide talents, and talents are the primary means of power advancement. It seems like you'll probably end up with characters being a bit stronger 1-10 since they start in a PRC (assuming you houserule around advancement to non-existant sphere progression of the theoretical base class), and then proceed not to lose much on an actually leveled character from there.

The first thing I'd ask as a player is if Advanced and Legendary talents will be allowed, and whether they would be allowed before or only after hitting the level cap.

[Cosi]

I think it's probably fine to just let people pick between PrCs and non-PrCs at their whim. The power spread between PrCs is already wide enough that I don't think you're making it worse by letting people take non-PrC classes as well. Is the power gap between a Master Specialist and a Horizon Walker really massively better or worse than the power gap between a Loremaster and a Barbarian.

Honestly, the thing that I want to know is how exactly you're mapping PrC progressions onto SoP/SoM progressions. What happens to Theurges? What does the progression of a Mindbender versus a Sandshaper versus an Elemental Savant versus a Pale Master look like? Are themed PrCs going to get restrictions on what talents they can pick (e.g. can I build a Mindbender whose SoP talents are all in fire magic)?

[Hellpyre]

Generally, Spherecasters gain a talent whenever they gain a caster level, and practioners gain a talent when they gain a point of BAB. I assume that's how PRCs would progress them.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Generally, Spherecasters gain a talent whenever they gain a caster level, and practioners gain a talent when they gain a point of BAB. I assume that's how PRCs would progress them.

That’s more or less what I was thinking. It’s a bit crazy power-wise, but just giving everyone a Might talent per point of BAB and standard spellcasting progression from classes that progress casting. Theurges (aside from Eldritch Knight which is basically a boring version of the Prodigy here) will have to get by on their class features without an arcane/divine separation. Or maybe they can pick two casting traditions?

Banning base classes was mostly because I know my players and they would just play them regardless.

[Cosi]

Generally, Spherecasters gain a talent whenever they gain a caster level, and practioners gain a talent when they gain a point of BAB. I assume that's how PRCs would progress them.

Okay. Do theurges get double then? Do casting PrCs still get a talent every other level? What about gish PrCs? Also, how do various PrC abilities that interact directly with traditional Vancian casting work? What happens when you get a Prestige Domain that gives you a pile of Vancian Spells you are expected to use your spell slots on? What about things that cost spell slots to some effect?

I still think the OP is focusing its efforts on entirely the wrong set of questions. Exactly which classes/PrCs you allow is simply much less important than how you go about converting every PrC to a different set of mechanics for casters, and a set of new mechanics for non-casters.

Also, is this E10 because that feels most natural when allowing 10-level PrCs as base classes, or because of a desired power constraint? If it's the latter, has OP considered that Spheres of Power bends the power curve down somewhat, and dramatically reduces access to abilities like teleport (at least by default, as I understand it).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Okay. Do theurges get double then?
No, there’s no reason to take them in Spheres unless the features are good.


Do casting PrCs still get a talent every other level? What about gish PrCs?
As stated, casting PrCs have a CL based on the number of levels they progress casting, taken fractionally out of 10. So if one “loses two levels” it has “8/10 casting” or .8/level CL. This is somewhat math-heavy but preserves the dichotomy of which ones are better at casting.


Also, how do various PrC abilities that interact directly with traditional Vancian casting work? What happens when you get a Prestige Domain that gives you a pile of Vancian Spells you are expected to use your spell slots on? What about things that cost spell slots to some effect?
*I’d need some examples of these features to answer that first bit.
*For domains, I’d have it work like the Sphere Cleric already does, granting bonus talents from a specified Sphere.
*One of the devs mentioned a way to handle this with spell points somewhere, so I’ll need to dig that up. Thanks!


Also, is this E10 because that feels most natural when allowing 10-level PrCs as base classes, or because of a desired power constraint?
Definitely the former. These classes have 10 levels, so it’s e10.

[Cosi]

Banning base classes was mostly because I know my players and they would just play them regardless.

I feel like making a change your players don't want to use is a bad idea.


As stated, casting PrCs have a CL based on the number of levels they progress casting, taken fractionally out of 10. So if one “loses two levels” it has “8/10 casting” or .8/level CL. This is somewhat math-heavy but preserves the dichotomy of which ones are better at casting.

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant "do casting PrCs get a Spheres of Might talent every other level when they get a BAB bump". If not, what about Gish PrCs that are very clearly intended to progress both martial and magical ability? Also, what about 3/4 BAB PrCs or non-casting 1/2 BAB PrCs?

Also, I still think that pretty much all the partial casting PrCs should just be full casting. The game is better if you aren't paying out the nose to be a Green Star Adept.


*I’d need some examples of these features to answer that first bit.

Off the top of my head, the Ultimate Magus gets to blow spell slots to do free meta-magic. Dwoemerkeeper allows you to swap prepared spell slots for a set list of other spells.


*For domains, I’d have it work like the Sphere Cleric already does, granting bonus talents from a specified Sphere.

What about, say, Wyrm Wizard, which grants the ability to pick up new spells from anywhere?


Definitely the former. These classes have 10 levels, so it’s e10.

But there are cool PrCs that aren't ten levels. Shouldn't people be allowed to be Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil or Shadowcraft Mages if you're going to allow them to be Red Wizards or Mages of the Arcane Order (incidentally, Spellpool is going to need a lot of work to be compatible with Spheres of Power)?

[EldritchWeaver]

Okay. Do theurges get double then? Do casting PrCs still get a talent every other level? What about gish PrCs? Also, how do various PrC abilities that interact directly with traditional Vancian casting work? What happens when you get a Prestige Domain that gives you a pile of Vancian Spells you are expected to use your spell slots on? What about things that cost spell slots to some effect?

I would disallow theurges for the simple reason that in SoP there is no divide between spell lists. Every class can take every sphere, so a Life wizard isn't different compared to a Destruction wizard in regards to the number of talents or spell points. But if you do want to keep the broad access then consider that theurge classes balance their broad access to two class lists by reducing the caster level. Which means that a Mid-Caster with two talents per level and nothing else might work. But maybe that's off in balance still.

For Gish classes I would look at the champion classes. Prodigy is both mid-BAB and Mid-Caster, Sage is a special case, which has no general CL, but can use Destruction sphere, Troubadour has mid-BAB and is a Low-Caster, but doesn't actually gain magic talents via class progression (instead uses personas). So there is already a variety of possibilities and if those don't fit, you can adapt others as well.

[Florian]

While it looks like an interesting basic idea, PrC design might even be worse than class design already is. Grab one of those Paladin or Ranger PrC that have full BAB and advance full caster levels, maybe even just going for Prestige Paladin and you have a 10/10 at hand.
Ok, that can´t happen when using PF PrC, which I assume because of spheres, as there're next to no full BAB PrC that significantly advance casting (Scar Seeker would be CL 5), but then again you'd have the whole lot of Cleric PrC to deal with, that significantly outclass the Sort/Wiz PrC.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I think part of the disconnect here is that I intend for this to be a Pathfinder game, not 3.5. So several of the issues presented simply aren’t factors.


I feel like making a change your players don't want to use is a bad idea.
It’s more that many of them lack a certain adventurous spirit when it comes to classes, and adding options has not tempted them in the past while a completely new list (as with new systems) has.


Sorry, I was unclear. I meant "do casting PrCs get a Spheres of Might talent every other level when they get a BAB bump". If not, what about Gish PrCs that are very clearly intended to progress both martial and magical ability? Also, what about 3/4 BAB PrCs or non-casting 1/2 BAB PrCs?

Also, I still think that pretty much all the partial casting PrCs should just be full casting. The game is better if you aren't paying out the nose to be a Green Star Adept.

My thinking initially was “sure let’s give Might stuff to everyone” but right now I think restricting Combat Training to non-caster classes and Blended Training to gishes (with others able to access SoM in the usual ways) works out best.

As for partial casting, different caster levels is an expected part of Spherecasting and I already said requiring prereqs was a mistake


Off the top of my head, the Ultimate Magus gets to blow spell slots to do free meta-magic. Dwoemerkeeper allows you to swap prepared spell slots for a set list of other spells.

What about, say, Wyrm Wizard, which grants the ability to pick up new spells from anywhere?

In one of the official threads, the creators suggested that the Spelleater Bloodrager spend spell points to heal in place of slots, so since metamagic already costs points I’d go with that and (not having looked at the list, so this is subject to change) let a PF equivalet to the Dweomerkeeper spend sp to cast from that list


But there are cool PrCs that aren't ten levels. Shouldn't people be allowed to be Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil or Shadowcraft Mages if you're going to allow them to be Red Wizards or Mages of the Arcane Order (incidentally, Spellpool is going to need a lot of work to be compatible with Spheres of Power)?
Absolutely, which is why I only banned base classes. PrCs that have fewer than 10 levels can still be taken as PrCs same as any spheres PF game!


I would disallow theurges for the simple reason that in SoP there is no divide between spell lists. Every class can take every sphere, so a Life wizard isn't different compared to a Destruction wizard in regards to the number of talents or spell points. But if you do want to keep the broad access then consider that theurge classes balance their broad access to two class lists by reducing the caster level. Which means that a Mid-Caster with two talents per level and nothing else might work. But maybe that's off in balance still.

I would just leave the ones with actual features available in case someone wants them, but with only one progression ezcept in the case of the ones that progress casting and something else. Double dipping talents just encourages dipping imo


For Gish classes I would look at the champion classes. Prodigy is both mid-BAB and Mid-Caster, Sage is a special case, which has no general CL, but can use Destruction sphere, Troubadour has mid-BAB and is a Low-Caster, but doesn't actually gain magic talents via class progression (instead uses personas). So there is already a variety of possibilities and if those don't fit, you can adapt others as well.
This is the plan at the moment. I’m fully aware some classes will need tweaking