Making Feinting work.

[SangoProduction]

So, to Feint, one must first spend their attack action, make an opposed role, and then they get the benefit for exactly one attack...next turn. And what's the benefit? Removing the opponent's Dex bonus to AC. Dex Bonus. Because that's a commonly high stat on most enemies. Definitely. Technically, it enables sneak attacks, but...you could flank in most situations where you could have Feinted. Oh, and it doesn't work or is extremely hard against basically anything that isn't human.


So let's take this step by step. First is address the action economy.
Improved Feint doesn't help here. The most kosher, first-party way is....Moonlight Stalker Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/moonlight-stalker-feint-combat/). Swift action feint. Awesome. But, oh boy that's a lot of feats. If we use Feat Tax rules, you still need to spend 3 feats to qualify, most of which aren't useful, plus one implicitly by not being a human (unless you can take RP ARTs), and then one more feat just to take the feat. Oh, and it requires you to have concealment from your target...which meant you could have hid instead. But, assuming you can do it...well, then you run across slimes and undead and constructs.

The other way, if you're allowed only a single 3rd party option, going Ninja for No-Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-tricks/rogue-genius-games---ninja-tricks/no-shadow-strike) is what you should do. Honestly, it's a really nice, and well balanced trick. A dip is useless for anyone who doesn't invest some modicum in charisma, but even a 14 or 16 could make 2 levels worth it.

And lastly, the best option, in my opinion, is Spheres of Might's Fast Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc3). Well, not on its own, no. But, with the Spheres of Might, the majority of the actions are Standard actions. This means that you actually aren't losing much by spending a move action, aside from not moving...which, actually, you can do at the same time. Notably, Barrage lets you get double time out of your Sneak Attack dice.

Next is addressing its duration. It honestly sucks. 1 attack, and it must be your's and it must be within 1 round.
Greater Feign solves the problem, for the most part. Now it's a full round. Sure you're opening the door for others now, but it really sucks that you can't get really any benefit from it, unless you're playing with SoM.

...and that's really the only option. Literally. Even SoM's version is basically Greater Feign. That said, because of how SoM works, that's actually plenty.

Then there's the point where the majority of things can't be feinted.
Yeah. There is absolutely no way to overcome this from Paizo.

In SoM, however, you have Unlikely Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc17). Wow. Suddenly it's not totally impossible to use. Amazing.

It's an opposed roll. Yeah. Nothing fixes this. Pretty up with Charisma, and take Skill Focus....I guess. Or just hope you can do it regardless.

Feinting offers so few benefits it's laughable.
Uh...
If you use guns, which target touch attack, then you can basically roll against AC 10 all of the time, which removes those actually halfway difficult targets for guns, if you get ghost touch ammo. This makes feinting a situational part of the build...which is probably where it belongs. You have to take Ranged Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ranged-feint-combat/), but it's there, and is honesly not a bad option, if you've sorted out the cost of ammunition (in gp and action economy).

In SoM.........Well....You can batter them, which...applies -2 to CMD... for a talent (which is equivalent to a feat). You could also double your crit range for a talent...or you could, non-conditionally take Improved Crit. It's nice to have the option for the variety-weapon crit specialist...do those even exist?

So...I guess we went through all this trouble of making feint usable without giving it a reason to be used. I mean, I guess if you got in to a 1v1 with Legolas.

That said, I believe ranged Feinters (those who have a hard time flanking for the sneak attacks) would actually be quite successful in SoM, simply due to the sheer number of attacks they can get. Also, primary benefit is mostly indirect, in that you can sneak attack freely. And to be fair, if you have a class that has sneak attack progression, and invest just 2 feats in to Fencing, you now average +1d6 damage per level on sneak attacks, which is respectable. That's a baseline blaster spell's damage, on each hit. Potentially for upwards of 6 attacks a round relatively early, taking hints from one of my previous guide thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541010-Optimizing-guns!).


Well this was deeply disappointing. I hope you enjoyed.

[grarrrg]

While they're not readily available/useful to most classes, Two-Weapon Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-two-weapon-feint-combat/) and Feinting Flurry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-feinting-flurry-combat/) are decent (as far as Feinting goes anyway).
Either one lets you turn your first attack of a Flurry/Full-attack into a Feint attempt, and the Improved versions last for the turn

Feat-taxes are pretty much just Combat Expertise, as you'll likely already have the relevant Two-Weapon feat(s) or Flurry of Blows if you're looking at them at all.
Although the DEX 17 req on Imp. Feinting Flurry is far from ideal.


To a lesser extent, there's also Deceptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/deceptive/) weapons.
On a Critical Hit you can Feint as an Immediate action, and you also get a bonus to Feint.

[BWR]

Or you can just house rule it:
- move action to feint
- Improved Feint makes this a swift action
- Greater Feint means all your attacks that round gain the benefit

[johnbragg]

So, to Feint, one must first spend their attack move action,

"There's (half) your problem right there."
Improved Feint makes it a move action. (Requires two feats, Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, or splatbook-diving to find another source of Improved Feint.


make an opposed role,

No, I was wrong. HERE's your problem right here. And the problem this time isn't that you missed something in the rules, it's that RAW makes Feint bad.

3.5 Bluff vs Sense Motive + BAB. So you're basically guaranteed to fail against anything worth trying a fancy move on.

PF. Bluff vs Sense Motive, or vs BAB + WIS, whichever is higher. Better than 3.5, but still meh.
NOT a Combat Maneuver, so Paizo didn't bring the CMB/CMD goodness to Feint.

I mean, maybe if you're street-fighting some local toughs whose only storyline importance is to get you in trouble with the law for killing citizens in town, you could feint with your weapon (move action) and then backhand them unarmed for a sneak attack. Or you could just sword-murder them and your cleric buddy drops a CLW on them before they hit -10.


and then they get the benefit for exactly one attack...next turn.

"Next turn" isn't in the rules. SRD "...on or before your next turn." PFSRD "...the next melee attack you make against the target." Doesn't say "wait until your next turn." Move action to feint, standard action to Sneak Attack.


And what's the benefit? Removing the opponent's Dex bonus to AC. Dex Bonus. Because that's a commonly high stat on most enemies. Definitely. Technically, it enables sneak attacks, but...you could flank in most situations where you could have Feinted.

Slow down. It enables Sneak Attack. It enables Sneak Attack. That's why you Feint.


Oh, and it doesn't work or is extremely hard against basically anything that isn't human.

Yes. If you're relying on precision damage, you need to go splatbook-diving for ways to get precision damage against the half-or-more of the MM/Bestiary that are partially or totally immune to precision damage.



So let's take this step by step. First is address the action economy.

Improved Feint doesn't help here.

Yes it does. That's ALL it does. It makes Feint a Move Action. Doesn't even give a measly +2 to your Bluff check. It overrides the stupid rule that takes Feinting not be a cool thing you can do at low levels (when shaving a +1 or +2 off of your targets' AC for your next attack would actually be a big deal).


The most kosher, first-party way is....Moonlight Stalker Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/moonlight-stalker-feint-combat/). Swift action feint. Awesome. But, oh boy that's a lot of feats. If we use Feat Tax rules, you still need to spend 3 feats to qualify, most of which aren't useful, plus one implicitly by not being a human (unless you can take RP ARTs), and then one more feat just to take the feat. Oh, and it requires you to have concealment from your target...which meant you could have hid instead. But, assuming you can do it...well, then you run across slimes and undead and constructs.

Yeah, I'm not crazy about that feat. Improved Feint is already 2 feats to make your Feint a move action (which it should be to start with), and then 2 more feats, have low-light/darkvision, you get yourself some concealment and then you can run up where they can hit you (move action), feint (swift action), and stab someone (standard action) for Sneak Attack damage. Instead of just hiding, and murdering them with a bow (for Sneak Attack damage), which is what a halfway-smart 5 year old would do. (I assume you're also smart enough to 5-foot step into and out of line-of-sight so that your concealment doesn't give your target concealment.)



The other way, if you're allowed only a single 3rd party option is, going Ninja for No-Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-tricks/rogue-genius-games---ninja-tricks/no-shadow-strike) is what you should do. Honestly, it's a really nice, and well balanced trick. A dip is useless for anyone who doesn't invest some modicum in charisma, but even a 14 or 16 could make 2 levels worth it.

I don't know the PAthfinder Ninja class, but Ninja classes in general have a terrible reputation. But, if you want to Feint, you need Bluff, so you need Charisma anyway.

I don't know if spending a level (Ninja dip) and a feat (No Shadow STrike) to make your feint a swift instead of a move. Maybe if you're using Skirmish damage (Scout, move 10') instead of Sneak Attack?




Um, maybe. I'm not the Spheres of X guy.

[quote]Next is addressing its duration. It honestly sucks. 1 attack, and it must be your's and it must be within 1 round.
Greater Feign solves the problem, for the most part. Now it's a full round. Sure you're opening the door for others now, but it really sucks that you can't get really any benefit from it, unless you're playing with SoM.

Wut? Improved Feint makes your Feint a move action, so you can stab him and get Sneak Attack damage with your (first) attack. Greater Feint extends that to your iterative attacks, and lets any rogue friends you have join in on the precision damage fun, and shaves his Dex bonus off of his AC. (Which could come in handy for your Touch-AC-focused spellcaster buddy).




Then there's the point where the majority of things can't be feinted.
Yeah. There is absolutely no way to overcome this from Paizo.

Yeah, you'd have to get some funky homebrew that declares the Matrix Rogue as someone who intuitively realizes that their reality is a set of overlapping, interlocking probability fields (MAtrix = d20 system), and cheats at solitaire, never mind cheating reality, and so gets to spend (some resource) to ignore the rules sometimes. (Spends resource points--"Of course I can precision damage that undead/construct/plant. I spend my cheat dice/ki points/power points/etc.")


In SoM, however, you have Unlikely Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc17). Wow. Suddenly it's not totally impossible to use. Amazing.

Yeah, you can feint the construct or undead or whatever, but it still doesn't solve the Sneak Attack problem. Feinting the construct doesn't get you anything.

[quote]It's an opposed roll. Yeah. Nothing fixes this. Pretty up with Charisma, and take Skill Focus....I guess. Or just hope you can do it regardless.

Feinting offers so few benefits it's laughable.
Uh...
If you use guns, which target touch attack, then you can basically roll against AC 10 all of the time, which removes those actually halfway difficult targets for guns, if you get ghost touch ammo. This makes feinting a situational part of the build...which is probably where it belongs. You have to take Ranged Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ranged-feint-combat/), but it's there, and is honesly not a bad option, if you've sorted out the cost of ammunition (in gp and action economy).

In SoM.........Well....You can batter them, which...applies -2 to CMD... for a talent (which is equivalent to a feat). You could also double your crit range for a talent...or you could, non-conditionally take Improved Crit. It's nice to have the option for the variety-weapon crit specialist...do those even exist?

So...I guess we went through all this trouble of making feint usable without giving it a reason to be used. I mean, I guess if you got in to a 1v1 with Legolas.

That said, I believe ranged Feinters (those who have a hard time flanking for the sneak attacks) would actually be quite successful in SoM, simply due to the sheer number of attacks they can get. Also, primary benefit is mostly indirect, in that you can sneak attack freely. And to be fair, if you have a class that has sneak attack progression, and invest just 2 feats in to Fencing, you now average +1d6 damage per level on sneak attacks, which is respectable. That's a baseline blaster spell's damage, on each hit. Potentially for upwards of 6 attacks a round relatively early, taking hints from one of my previous guide thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541010-Optimizing-guns!).


Well this was deeply disappointing. I hope you enjoyed.


Or you can just house rule it:
- move action to feint
- Improved Feint makes this a swift action
- Greater Feint means all your attacks that round gain the benefit

Greater Feint already does that.

I could see (and probably will) houseruling Feint to be automatically a Move action, and Improved Feint is Greater Feint (effects last for a full round, so your allies benefit), and you get a +2 to your Bluff check (in line with Improved Disarm and Improved Trip).


I'm also thinking about declaring Combat Expertise as part of a package of feats that unlock automatically at BAB +1. Definitely including Power Attack, possibly others--looking at Point Blank Shot. Call it the Feat Tax REfund Act. Or I might roll that into my Fighting Styles rework of mundanes in general....

[Elricaltovilla]

There are other options to make feinting easier.

Mithral Current Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/mithral-current-style-combat-style/) lets you feint as a swift action.

Tempest Gale's Distracting Draft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/tempest-gale-maneuvers/#TOC-Distracting-Draft) lets you feint as a swift action against a target and gives you +1d6 damage to your next ranged attack as well.

Steel Serpent has Rattler's Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/steel-serpent-maneuvers/#TOC-Rattler-s-Feint), which is a swift action feint with a +4 bonus to the roll.

There are other maneuvers that do "feinting" by just making it part of their mechanics without explicitly calling it out as such, typically by allowing you to treat the target as flat footed or other similar effects. So there's a tendency to side step the issue with PoW, but given the way that feinting works in Pathfinder I can't call that a bad thing.

I suppose if you're concerned with feinting as defined by RAW, then it's pretty terrible. But if you are willing to be a bit more imaginative with your descriptions, then feinting becomes much more common.

[SangoProduction]

While they're not readily available/useful to most classes, Two-Weapon Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-two-weapon-feint-combat/) and Feinting Flurry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-feinting-flurry-combat/) are decent (as far as Feinting goes anyway).
Either one lets you turn your first attack of a Flurry/Full-attack into a Feint attempt, and the Improved versions last for the turn

Feat-taxes are pretty much just Combat Expertise, as you'll likely already have the relevant Two-Weapon feat(s) or Flurry of Blows if you're looking at them at all.
Although the DEX 17 req on Imp. Feinting Flurry is far from ideal.


To a lesser extent, there's also Deceptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/deceptive/) weapons.
On a Critical Hit you can Feint as an Immediate action, and you also get a bonus to Feint.

Some good options I missed.


There are other options to make feinting easier.

Mithral Current Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/mithral-current-style-combat-style/) lets you feint as a swift action.

Tempest Gale's Distracting Draft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/tempest-gale-maneuvers/#TOC-Distracting-Draft) lets you feint as a swift action against a target and gives you +1d6 damage to your next ranged attack as well.

Steel Serpent has Rattler's Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/steel-serpent-maneuvers/#TOC-Rattler-s-Feint), which is a swift action feint with a +4 bonus to the roll.

There are other maneuvers that do "feinting" by just making it part of their mechanics without explicitly calling it out as such, typically by allowing you to treat the target as flat footed or other similar effects. So there's a tendency to side step the issue with PoW, but given the way that feinting works in Pathfinder I can't call that a bad thing.

I suppose if you're concerned with feinting as defined by RAW, then it's pretty terrible. But if you are willing to be a bit more imaginative with your descriptions, then feinting becomes much more common.

Path of War is third party as well, so it's no more likely to be let in than Spheres of Power, and they aren't the easiest options to get. But they are there, which is nice. I appreciate being enlightened to the possibilities.


...

I think you managed to successfully miss what was being talked about. You even quote my bit about Moonstalker being a bad but first party option, and say I'm wrong and it's bad. But, you also seem to think that enabling a single sneak attack makes feinting worth it, so Improved Feint helps. It does not. +1d6/2 levels is hardly anything worth spending your entire turn on.

It works in SoM, because you don't need that move action, if you're sitting there and attacking anyway.

[DuelingBlue]

Third party fixes this in various ways.

But by core, feinting is suboptimal. You can kinda sorta get it to work with a weapon with the Deceptive special property, but that relies on a successful critical.

[johnbragg]

OP, let's get crazy. What do YOU think feinting should do, if you're not using it to get precision damage?

A feint deceives your opponent, giving you a tactical advantage. OK, what SHOULD that look like mechanically?

Being totally unaware of your opponent makes you flat-footed, which does the same thing mechanically as Feint.

But there are plenty of strange things under the suns of 3.5, between WOTC, PF and published 3rd party. What are some existing 3X mechanics that we could plunder as a model for how Feinting *should* work.

Knowledge-Devotion exists. D&DTools link, reliability unknown, legality dubious (https://dndtools.net/feats/complete-champion--57/knowledge-devotion--1727/) Gives a bonus for the entire combat based on a Knowledge check, ranging from +1 to +5. Feint is based on a Bluff check, so maybe you get an attack bonus equal to the amount you make the Bluff check by?

You might have a ridiculous bonus, but it's fleeting--for a single attack, or a single round. (See true strike as a first level spell)

IS there another 3X mechanic that we could plunder as a model for a houserule for better Feinting? Or is this where we should start for a homebrewed feat: Awesome Feint?

[Lirya]

With Spheres of Might I like Cunning Combo (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dual-wielding#toc7) as an option to feint as part of the attack action (and thus keep your mobility). Also don't forget to pick up Feint Strike (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc5) and Focusing Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc6) for an AoO whenever you successfully feint someone.

Apart from that, the Cunning Liar (http://archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cunning%20Liar) trait is really useful as it swaps bluff to your choice of Int or Wis.

[SangoProduction]

With Spheres of Might I like Cunning Combo (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dual-wielding#toc7) as an option to feint as part of the attack action (and thus keep your mobility). Also don't forget to pick up Feint Strike (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc5) and Focusing Feint (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/fencing#toc6) for an AoO whenever you successfully feint someone.

Apart from that, the Cunning Liar (http://archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cunning%20Liar) trait is really useful as it swaps bluff to your choice of Int or Wis.

I knew Cunning Combo was there somewhere! I just kept missing it lol. It'd probably be relatively low on the priority list, as it's only a side grade Fast Feint. Cunning Liar also opens it up from Charisma, which is great for the bluff roll.

I missed the Feint Strike. Getting an immediate attack when you feint is good value, and actually directly improves feinting.

[Elricaltovilla]

Path of War is third party as well, so it's no more likely to be let in than Spheres of Power, and they aren't the easiest options to get. But they are there, which is nice. I appreciate being enlightened to the possibilities.



Well I've noticed you posting these threads pretty regularly now and you always include Spheres of Might options in your posts, but neglect other 3rd party publishers that offer the similar options. So I thought I should mention some other options in the 3rd party spectrum that are viable.

Your original post also has this quote:



The other way, if you're allowed only a single 3rd party option is, going Ninja for No-Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-tricks/rogue-genius-games---ninja-tricks/no-shadow-strike) is what you should do. Honestly, it's a really nice, and well balanced trick. A dip is useless for anyone who doesn't invest some modicum in charisma, but even a 14 or 16 could make 2 levels worth it.


Seems somewhat misleading with the way you worded that, if you're saying "you're only allowed a single 3rd party option" but the rest of your post contains multiple 3rd party abilities from Spheres of Might.

[SangoProduction]

Well I've noticed you posting these threads pretty regularly now and you always include Spheres of Might options in your posts, but neglect other 3rd party publishers that offer the similar options. So I thought I should mention some other options in the 3rd party spectrum that are viable.

Your original post also has this quote:



Seems somewhat misleading with the way you worded that, if you're saying "you're only allowed a single 3rd party option" but the rest of your post contains multiple 3rd party abilities from Spheres of Might.

I wasn't saying it was bad. I was just pointing it out, just as I clearly delineate between third party and first party in the OP. As I said, I appreciated the information. And that complete quote includes "if". If you are only allowed one single 3rd party option, then the ninja thing is the single most useful thing for making feinting work, with mostly first party content.

[TheIronGolem]

One thing I will point out is that because feinting directly denies the target's DEX bonus to AC (as opposed to indirectly doing so by making the target flat-footed, as many other effects do), it bypasses Uncanny Dodge. That's not much, I know, but it's something.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, I'm not crazy about that feat. Improved Feint is already 2 feats to make your Feint a move action (which it should be to start with), and then 2 more feats, have low-light/darkvision, you get yourself some concealment and then you can run up where they can hit you (move action), feint (swift action), and stab someone (standard action) for Sneak Attack damage. Instead of just hiding, and murdering them with a bow (for Sneak Attack damage), which is what a halfway-smart 5 year old would do. (I assume you're also smart enough to 5-foot step into and out of line-of-sight so that your concealment doesn't give your target concealment.)

Or just drop a smoke pellet every round as a free action. Yes - it gives concealment both to you and your foe, but you have a 4% chance of missing, and with Unchained Rogue you can still get Sneak Attack with concealment.


I don't know the PAthfinder Ninja class, but Ninja classes in general have a terrible reputation.

The Pathfinder Ninja is very solid. Before Unchained Rogue came out it was basically the default rogue because it was so much better.

[Elder_Basilisk]

One thing I will point out is that because feinting directly denies the target's DEX bonus to AC (as opposed to indirectly doing so by making the target flat-footed, as many other effects do), it bypasses Uncanny Dodge. That's not much, I know, but it's something.

I guess that makes feint a way for a high level rogue v rogue fight to not just be a slap-fight and gives rogues another option to get sneak attack vs barbarians without needing to be four levels higher than the barbarian.

Not that it's a good option but it is an option.

[ICN]

You missed one first party option for a swift action feint. Check out the smokestick section of the equipment trick feat (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Equipment%20Trick).

[SangoProduction]

You missed one first party option for a swift action feint. Check out the smokestick section of the equipment trick feat (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Equipment%20Trick).

Wow. I didn't expect that from first party. Great find!

[P.F.]

You missed one first party option for a swift action feint. Check out the smokestick section of the equipment trick feat (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Equipment%20Trick).

It's almost certainly better than other 1st-party options, granted. However,

Int 13 -> Expertise -> Improved Feint -> Equipment Trick + Craft (alchemy)...

That's still a hefty chunk of build resources to drop on the privilege of an opposed roll stacked in your opponents favor for the chance to do, on average across all levels, +18 damage on one attack, assuming you hit.

Plus you still have to use an action to light the damn thing, fine if you know you're about to have a combat, but potentially devastating if you're ambushed. I suppose you could try to keep one lit when you think you might have combat that hour, but that's probably burning 100+ gp/day just to keep a basic ability functioning.

[grarrrg]

Int 13 -> Expertise -> Improved Feint -> Equipment Trick + Craft (alchemy)...

That's still a hefty chunk of build resources to drop...

Seems on about even with most other options, on the lighter side even.
And the Craft(Alchemy) req is _1_ rank, I don't think that should even be counted.

[Pleh]

You could port the 3.5 PrC "Invisible Blade".

Take 5 levels and you get feint as a free action and may take 10 to feint, even when distracted or threatened.

Probably not worth the cost, but if you're porting and homebrewing anyway, it's worth thinking about

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Making it an actual Combat Maneuver with Bluff and Sense Motive skill unlocks to use that instead has worked well for me.

[Shigure]

Wow. I didn't expect that from first party. Great find!

Bit of a rez here but when I saw this I had to mention my own experience with this particular use of Equipment Trick.

I made a Cheroot smoking Pitborn Tiefling Snakebite Striker Brawler for a lower level game that met with some success. He would roll smoke sticks into select cheroots and would use puffs of smoke from them to get in his sneak attack kidney shots. Not a terribly optimized build but it had loads of style to it and the GM and other players loved it.

[TiaC]

No love for Blistering Feint? It's an Ifrit feat that gives you a bonus on feinting when your weapon does fire damage and lets you deal that fire damage to the target of a successful feint. When used with a weapon that deals pure fire damage and a method of swift feinting, it's a swift-action attack.

[Silly Name]

You could port the 3.5 PrC "Invisible Blade".

Take 5 levels and you get feint as a free action and may take 10 to feint, even when distracted or threatened.

Probably not worth the cost, but if you're porting and homebrewing anyway, it's worth thinking about

First you'd have to solve the issue with its feat tax being absolutely nonsensical. Demanding Far Shot and Point Blank Shot for a melee-based PrC is arguably worse than any Toughness-based Feat Tax.

[BassoonHero]

Is there any reason that feinting shouldn't just be a combat maneuver by default?

[Der_DWSage]

I actually have a minor nail in the coffin for feinting-you can accomplish the same thing with a stealth check as a Swift action, requiring two feats. (Or a single advanced Rogue talent.) Norgorber's Silent Shiv (http://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine%20Fighting%20Tech nique), a Divine Fighting Style feat. It only works at 10th level, and only for one attack, but it ignores the hoops you have to jump through to make Feint function.

[martixy]

Moonlight Stalker: Which 3 feats? I count 2 - Blind fight and Moonlight stalker. I'd just file blind-fight as a feat tax. Also merge moonlight stalker and feint.
Frees up feats for greater feint.
2 birds, 1 stone.

Unlikely feint as a feat, or just make that the default.

And if you make it that cheap, it becomes just another combat option and doesn't need to justify its existence by tacking on extra stuff to make it usable.

...my 2cp.

[tyckspoon]

First you'd have to solve the issue with its feat tax being absolutely nonsensical. Demanding Far Shot and Point Blank Shot for a melee-based PrC is arguably worse than any Toughness-based Feat Tax.

Not sure if the documentation is still available anywhere, but as I recall the story here is that Invisible Blade was originally part of a single (3.0?) prestige class where the concept was basically 'that one guy who always uses daggers for everything.' It got split up into Invisible Blade and, IIRC, Master Thrower, to break the overly-broad concept into the 'Sneaky dagger fighter' and 'small weapon flinger', but nobody noticed they didn't fix the entry prereqs appropriately when going to print. If you're going to be porting and updating it anyway taking away the throwing-centric entry requirements should be an easy sell.

[Silly Name]

Not sure if the documentation is still available anywhere, but as I recall the story here is that Invisible Blade was originally part of a single (3.0?) prestige class where the concept was basically 'that one guy who always uses daggers for everything.' It got split up into Invisible Blade and, IIRC, Master Thrower, to break the overly-broad concept into the 'Sneaky dagger fighter' and 'small weapon flinger', but nobody noticed they didn't fix the entry prereqs appropriately when going to print. If you're going to be porting and updating it anyway taking away the throwing-centric entry requirements should be an easy sell.

I do not know what Invisible Blade's design history is, but this seems like the only sane explanation for its absurd pre-requisites, so I'll accept it.

In any case, I just wanted to point out that just porting the class as-is is a bad idea because of the official entry requirements. However, I would also suggest to not just strip down the feat requirements to only Weapon Focus, and instead put something thematically or mechanically fitting in place of either or both Point-Blank Shot and Far Shot (Quick Draw could be a reasonable candidate).

[Pleh]

Not sure if the documentation is still available anywhere, but as I recall the story here is that Invisible Blade was originally part of a single (3.0?) prestige class where the concept was basically 'that one guy who always uses daggers for everything.' It got split up into Invisible Blade and, IIRC, Master Thrower, to break the overly-broad concept into the 'Sneaky dagger fighter' and 'small weapon flinger', but nobody noticed they didn't fix the entry prereqs appropriately when going to print. If you're going to be porting and updating it anyway taking away the throwing-centric entry requirements should be an easy sell.

Yes, I remember that as well. In my mind, porting in the invisible blade was going to take some slight alterations anyway, so things like modifying the prereqs just seemed obvious.

Weapon Focus (Dagger/similar) would probably be enough. Weapon Finesse or Quick Draw would be suitable as well. Dunno if you need to fully replace both ranged feats. It's not a powerful enough PrC to really need 3 feat tax, IMO. 2 feats and the skill reqs seem sufficient.