Thoughts on a soul trade

[nemozer0]

A D&D character, let's call him Jim the druid, has a bright idea to deal with a high level devil.

Jim proposes a contract be made for a trade for Jims soul.

He states however that the devil will not know what he must give until he claims Jims soul as with point Jim will get whatever he wants.

The Soul of the 18th level Jim the druid is indeed valuable to the devil as him and his party has been a constant thorn in his side, however he is no fool and simply states without knowing the cost there is no way he would be willing to make such a deal.

Jim retorts by saying. The contract will clearly state that my wish can only be of equal or lesser value of a soul.

The devil now knowing at worst he gets a fair trade and could potential make out better from the deal agrees.

The contract is made and The devil claims Jim's soul. As the soul is taken Jim get's his desired wish as per the contract.

Jim's wish is to have the devil's soul.

What on earth happens here?

Putting aside the fact this is unlikely to come up, as I have a hard time seeing a devil making such a deal

When this question was proposed to me I couldn't help but wonder. Would both their souls be torn out and throw each other into an eternal stalemate as they vanish in a void of existentialism? Would they be bound to each other in such a way that one could not act without the others consent? Would they plain old die? would they switch bodys all freaky friday style?

So I pose the question to you all. What do you think would happen? And what would your ruling be if this came up in your game

[Dr. Cliché]

Okay, two thoughts here:

1) I'm not sure Devil's actually have souls. Unless it's changed since 3.5, outsiders don't have separate souls, so I'm not even sure this request is possible.

2) Could the Devil not just say that it's soul (or whatever passes for it) is more valuable than the Jim's soul? And therefore, as per the contract, Jim is not allowed to ask for it (since it exceeds the value of his own).

[DeTess]

A D&D character, let's call him Jim the druid, has a bright idea to deal with a high level devil.

Jim proposes a contract be made for a trade for Jims soul.

He states however that the devil will not know what he must give until he claims Jims soul as with point Jim will get whatever he wants.

The Soul of the 18th level Jim the druid is indeed valuable to the devil as him and his party has been a constant thorn in his side, however he is no fool and simply states without knowing the cost there is no way he would be willing to make such a deal.

Jim retorts by saying. The contract will clearly state that my wish can only be of equal or lesser value of a soul.

The devil now knowing at worst he gets a fair trade and could potential make out better from the deal agrees.

The contract is made and The devil claims Jim's soul. As the soul is taken Jim get's his desired wish as per the contract.

Jim's wish is to have the devil's soul.

What on earth happens here?

Putting aside the fact this is unlikely to come up, as I have a hard time seeing a devil making such a deal

When this question was proposed to me I couldn't help but wonder. Would both their souls be torn out and throw each other into an eternal stalemate as they vanish in a void of existentialism? Would they be bound to each other in such a way that one could not act without the others consent? Would they plain old die? would they switch bodys all freaky friday style?

So I pose the question to you all. What do you think would happen? And what would your ruling be if this came up in your game

This is really a case of Jim out-deviling this devil, so the devil's boss will probably show up, have a good laugh at the situation, and then replace the devil with Jim.

[Unoriginal]

Jim's wish is to have the devil's soul.

What on earth happens here?


The Devil laughs, and then give it to Jim. That is to say, the Devil gives Jim nothing, because Devils don't have souls (since, you know, they're Devils).

Alternatively, the Devil laughs and give Jim one of the less important souls it collected (since it's one of the souls that belong to the Devil, ie the Devil's soul, it fulfill the contract).

Either way, Jim's story becomes a cautionary tale, teaching futur generations that you shouldn't deal with the devil.


This is really a case of Jim out-deviling this devil

Yeah, no.

[Dr. Cliché]

Alternatively, the Devil laughs and give Jim one of the less important souls it collected (since it's one of the souls that belong to the Devil, ie the Devil's soul, it fulfill the contract).

Hah, I like that one. :smallbiggrin:

[NecessaryWeevil]

Putting aside the fact this is unlikely to come up, as I have a hard time seeing a devil making such a deal
Pretty much this. Either the devil would not make a deal without defining how value is measured, or it makes the deal because it is the default arbiter of value.

However, I think the OP's question is, given that such a swap is in fact made, what happens?

[Tiadoppler]

I think the OP's question is, given that such a swap is in fact made, what happens?

Well, if it somehow happened (a devil who'd had his INT drained to 3?), the DM would have to start making decisions like:



What power does 'owning another being's soul' grant the owner?

The default answer seems to be 'owning that being's existence and gaining power over it after it dies'. Does the Druid have any ability to kill the devil, or any power to control things in an afterlife?



Is there a resale market in souls?

For sale: one devil's soul, "slightly" used, recently dry-cleaned. Mostly original parts. 250,000gp or trade (I'm looking for legendary artifacts, but willing to consider rare items in bulk). No low-ballers. I know what I have!

[Millstone85]

I think it is called marriage.

[Honest Tiefling]

1) Wouldn't the devil have multiple souls? I mean, they're so into soul dealing I imagine that the devil in question has a few kicking around his junk drawer. As it is in fact, HIS soul, wouldn't it fulfill the terms of the contract? It just isn't the one inhabiting his body or whatever it is outsiders do in this edition.

2) If somehow Jim the Druid could specify the devil's actual soul, and that the devil HAS a soul...Wouldn't it be up to the druid to find soul housing for his new soul? I mean, if you buy some livestock I assume the means of transportation and housing are usually up to the buyer. If Jim the Druid cannot extract the devil's soul, I would imagine that the devil would just proclaim it to be Jim's problem.

[Tiadoppler]

1) Wouldn't the devil have multiple souls? I mean, they're so into soul dealing I imagine that the devil in question has a few kicking around his junk drawer. As it is in fact, HIS soul, wouldn't it fulfill the terms of the contract? It just isn't the one inhabiting his body or whatever it is outsiders do in this edition.

Maybe he's an entry-level devil who's just got his first franchise. That could explain why he messed up the whole contract thing and got himself into this mess in the first place. Anyway, even if he couldn't think of anything better, Jim the Druid's soul belongs to him now, couldn't he just return Jim the Druid's soul to fulfill the contract?



2) If somehow Jim the Druid could specify the devil's actual soul, and that the devil HAS a soul...Wouldn't it be up to the druid to find soul housing for his new soul? I mean, if you buy some livestock I assume the means of transportation and housing are usually up to the buyer. If Jim the Druid cannot extract the devil's soul, I would imagine that the devil would just proclaim it to be Jim's problem.

Most of the time it seems like the devil is bargaining for future rights to the soul, to be claimed upon the death of the soul's previous owner. When Jim the Druid dies, Mr. Devil has the right to swoop in and drag it down to one of the hells. Likewise, Jim the Druid would now own the right to swoop in and claim Mr. Devil's soul after Mr. Devil dies. If he is unable to, or chooses not to, he forfeits the claim.

[bc56]

In my world, devils and other fiends are beings made of pure soul energy. This would lead to one of three situations.

1: Now soulless Jim gets this devil as a servant

2: the devil collapses in on itself, having voided itself of its soul, and Jim becomes a devil of the same rank.

3: the devil's soul, being made out of multiple souls, is too valuable for the deal.

[nemozer0]

To be clear I always thought of this just as an interesting thing to think about. more of a DM ruleing thing than something with a clear cut answer.

To the question "do devils have there own soul." I was going off the 5e monster manual that states devils are dead mortals that start as lemure and with luck climb the ranks change form as they do. Also I remember reading somewhere that when a devil dies it's soul returns to the hells till it's body reforms. But the monster manual dosn't use the word soul when it says they return and I cant seem to find where I read that it was a souls so it may have just been a assumption by some random.

As for value of one soul to another it is a rather subjective thing.

Whatever the case it is fun to think about what a soul trade such as this looks like. My personal fave answers so far are the following.


I think it is called marriage.

That would be an awkward honeymoon


1: Now soulless Jim gets this devil as a servant

lol bad druid nature isn't going to approve of this

[Kane0]

Error 57A: Invalid wish (the target soul is already in use).

Big A already owns the Devil's soul, and transferring ownership is beyond the capability of the Devil. The wish has no effect (or is twisted, as per the spell description)
If you're feeling nasty, make sure there was a clause in the contract that says if Jim's wish is twisted or invalid Devil takes his payment anyway. Better luck next time, kid.

Edit: Alternatively, the cop out answer is Error 404: Soul not found

[Tiadoppler]

Big A already owns the Devil's soul


I like this a lot. "Big A" find this devil's failure so hilarious that he gives Jim the soul, reducing the devil in power to lemure (in the shape of a lemur) and forcing the ex-devil into eternal servitude to Jim.

Jim gets an evil familiar that hates him, but is forced to obey him.



I still think it's an unlikely scenario. A devil wouldn't agree to an open-ended contract like that.

[Honest Tiefling]

I like this a lot. "Big A" find this devil's failure so hilarious that he gives Jim the soul, reducing the devil in power to lemure (in the shape of a lemur) and forcing the ex-devil into eternal servitude to Jim.

Jim gets an evil familiar that hates him, but is forced to obey him.

Mister A isn't exactly known for his altruism or forthrightness, so I'd be leery of accepting any gifts from him...That's how you end up with a TPK of the material plane, not just the party. But otherwise, I agree that Mister A probably sublets the devil their own soul.

[Tiadoppler]

Mister A isn't exactly known for his altruism or forthrightness, so I'd be leery of accepting any gifts from him...That's how you end up with a TPK of the material plane, not just the party. But otherwise, I agree that Mister A probably sublets the devil their own soul.

Heh. I didn't say that Jim had an option to decline. It's a Wish. You get what you get :smallbiggrin:


Edit: Oh, and naturally Jim's soul now belongs directly to Big A. Teehee.

[SirGraystone]

- As the devil take Jim's soul, Jim collapse on the ground dead and not able to ask for his wish.

- Jim get to ask, and the devil (and his soul) possess Jim's body that become an NPC control by the DM

[Mortis_Elrod]

This reminds me of a character idea for a warlock of the most fiendish variety.

He gained power and favors and such from selling only parts of his soul. To different entities. Kind of like selling shares in his own company.

It’s important to note that a Soul in my setting has potentially limitless power, more or less infinite. What’s infinity /666 ? Sounds like infinity to him and that’s how he convinced his shareholders. Of course he would have Majority still, and whenever the multiple different devils, and fey, and otherworldly beings finally decided on a proper time share plan for when he died they would follow it.

[Zanthy1]

I think it is called marriage.

Yeah this is pretty much it. Then it's up to them to make it work. If I were the Devil I'd want to make sure there was some form of pre-nup, or actualy life insurance would be better cause Jim is more likely to die before the Devil.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I think it is called marriage.

Quick somebody cast Ceremony.

nemozer0 you said that it was a higher level devil so hi soul would be more valuable there for that wish wouldn't work on the grounds that Jim is getting more value out of it and thats against the contract. otherwise i would just have everything explode. or throw them both into limbo.

[Mellack]

I think Unoriginal had it. Since this in not a low-level devil it owns several souls from the deals it has made. It gives Jim the weakest of them in exchange for Jim's soul. Jim can no longer refuse any order from the devil, but gets a NPC as his servant. I would use the Noble background as a basis for that servant but you can give him a low level NPC or even an imp familiar to control as he owns that soul.