Monk point buy distribution

[quark12000]

Can I get some help with my monk's point buy? He's a Wood Elf. The current distribution I have is: STR 8, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10. This bumps up to DEX 17 and WIS 15. What do you think?

[Tiadoppler]

Can I get some help with my monk's point buy? He's a Wood Elf. The current distribution I have is: STR 8, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10. This bumps up to DEX 17 and WIS 15. What do you think?

Looks playable to me. Are you trying to optimize towards something specific?

If you did

STR 8
DEX 14 + 2 = 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 15 + 1 = 16
CHA 10

you'd have a +3 modifier in both DEX and WIS, and still be able to ASI your DEX up quickly
Edit: If you're okay with starting with a WIS +2, you could go to

STR 8
DEX 14 + 2 = 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13 + 1 = 14
CHA 10

(+4 more points to play with)

and have four more points for rounding your character out. The ability score modifier (increases on even numbers) is usually much more important than the raw ability score. It's been said that the raw ability score (usually a 8 to 20 range) is merely a tradition of D&D, and the actual game-relevant stat is actually the modifier (-1 to +5).

[quark12000]

Looks playable to me. Are you trying to optimize towards something specific?

Not really. Think I will go either Open Hand or Drunken Master tradition, if that helps.



If you did

STR 8
DEX 14 + 2 = 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 15 + 1 = 16
CHA 10

you'd have a +3 modifier in both DEX and WIS, and still be able to ASI your DEX up quickly

That looks better. I did it the other way because I'd been told to always have odd numbers in stats you want to increase.

[Tiadoppler]

That looks better. I did it the other way because I'd been told to always have odd numbers in stats you want to increase.

It depends if you're using ASIs (increase by 2 points) or specific feats (many of them increase one ability by 1 point, as well as other benefits). It depends on how you intend to build your character at higher levels.

Do you intend to multiclass?
Do you have a list of specific feats in mind for your character's optimization?

If not, an even number provides more immediate benefit at low levels.

[quark12000]

It depends if you're using ASIs (increase by 2 points) or specific feats (many of them increase one ability by 1 point, as well as other benefits). It depends on how you intend to build your character at higher levels.

Do you intend to multiclass?
Do you have a list of specific feats in mind for your character's optimization?


I haven't really thought about feats or multiclassing. I think I want to go straight Monk with this character. Are there any feats you would recommend?

[Tiadoppler]

I haven't really thought about feats or multiclassing. I think I want to go straight Monk with this character. Are there any feats you would recommend?

I am... not the person to ask about straight-up combat optimization.

For monks, stunning strike is excellent (and arguably class-defining), and benefits from both DEX and WIS, so I've always thought of Monks as wanting more ASIs (to increase those ability scores) rather than feats. After all, monks use their feets more than their feats.

Increasing WIS to bump up your Ki Saving Throw DC is also important for Way of the Open Hand monks, but perhaps less important for Way of the Drunken Master.

In my current campaign there's a paranoid Kensei Monk with the Alert feat, who uses Longbow as a backup and intends to take the Sharpshooter feat eventually, but that's a very specific build.

If you're going for a straight monk build, Resilient is probably a complete waste (unless you're allowed to retrain later), if your campaign gets to a high enough level for Diamond Soul.

[Captain Bob]

I'd consider foregoing feats until you have capped out dexterity. You aren't really dependent upon them like weapon martials are on Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, and there are significantly fewer means of increasing your attack and defensive stats with items as a monk (depending on your GM that is). Also, dexterity is the hotness for everything else gives you as well - like skill boosts, and synergy with your saving throw / evasion, initiative...


Edit - Also, what he said: Monks are typically best as a pure-class, given how many awesome features they get and the scaling of their martial arts die + Ki points.

[quark12000]

Should I max out DEX and WIS? That would be a 20 AC. Still kind of low, but the best a Monk can do. I've been doing more reading, and as a Wood Elf he can use a longsword for 1d10 damage. Better than the 1d4 for unarmed.

[Tiadoppler]

As a wood elf, you have proficiency in Longsword, but it's not a Monk Weapon, so you don't get your Martial Arts benefits while wielding it. A Kensei Monk can add Longsword to the Monk Weapon list, but other Monks cannot.

Yes, I'd recommend maxing both DEX and WIS. 20 AC isn't bad by any means, it just isn't meant as a tanky defender character.

[quark12000]

As a wood elf, you have proficiency in Longsword, but it's not a Monk Weapon, so you don't get your Martial Arts benefits while wielding it. A Kensei Monk can add Longsword to the Monk Weapon list, but other Monks cannot.

Oops, you're right! Spear looks better (1d8) for a Monk.



Yes, I'd recommend maxing both DEX and WIS. 20 AC isn't bad by any means, it just isn't meant as a tanky defender character.

I've been in games where a 20 DC means you're getting hit every round as long as the opponent doesn't roll a 1, so 16 is making me really nervous.

[Tiadoppler]

I've been in games where a 20 DC means you're getting hit every round as long as the opponent doesn't roll a 1, so 16 is making me really nervous.

That sounds like 4e to me. In 5e, early enemies have attack modifiers in the +1 to +4 range instead of starting basically at +5 (and increasing quickly) like 4e did.
Even an Ancient Gold Dragon (CR 24) has AC 22 and +17 to attack, and that's meant as a threat for a party of max-level characters.

20 AC isn't at the very top of the pack when it comes to armor, but it isn't exactly squishy. Monks are not meant to tank damage on purpose.

[sambojin]

One of the best feats for a Monk is Alertness. Getting your Stunning Strike off before anyone else moves is golden.

By all means, pump Dex and Wis, but getting another +5 initiative on top of that is great. Coupled with no surprise means that you can often prone or stun a couple of things before anyone else moves, even in situations where the party would be screwed normally. It's a really annoying feat for a DM to handle (your party is only ever completely surprised when you're asleep. Which elves don't do often, or really, at all).

[quark12000]

That sounds like 4e to me. In 5e, early enemies have attack modifiers in the +1 to +4 range instead of starting basically at +5 (and increasing quickly) like 4e did.
Even an Ancient Gold Dragon (CR 24) has AC 22 and +17 to attack, and that's meant as a threat for a party of max-level characters.


Actually, I meant 3.5 and Pathfinder.

[quark12000]

One of the best feats for a Monk is Alertness. Getting your Stunning Strike off before anyone else moves is golden.

By all means, pump Dex and Wis, but getting another +5 initiative on top of that is great. Coupled with no surprise means that you can often prone or stun a couple of things before anyone else moves, even in situations where the party would be screwed normally. It's a really annoying feat for a DM to handle (your party is only ever completely surprised when you're asleep. Which elves don't do often, or really, at all).

That is a nice feat. Too bad I can't get it until level 19!

[Captain Bob]

Yeah getting Dex and Wisdom as high as possible would likely be my advice. Stunning strike is a major tool in your kit, and it's reliability is tied to the DC. Given that wisdom also pumps your AC and skills, it's a no-brainer. Feats are good and all, but it's tough to think of one that is optimal (if optimization is what you're shooting for) over simply nabbing Dex / Wis. This is particularly true if you go open hand, since you effectively get the mobile feat for free, which in my opinion is one of the few that is otherwise worth consideration.

[quark12000]

Stunning strike is a major tool in your kit, and it's reliability is tied to the DC.

Doesn't it seem kind of weird that one of the "major tool(s)" of a stereotypically unarmed fighter requires using a melee weapon? I think that's weird.

[Captain Bob]

Jeremy Crawford addresses this...but generally speaking an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack. Followed up with an example of punching with smite

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/25/divine-smite-is-for-melee-weapon-attacks-so-is-it-ok-for-my-monkpaladin-to-use-with-unarmed-strikes/



https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/30/does-stunning-strike-work-with-unarmed-strikes/

[quark12000]

Well, why doesn't it say that anywhere. Sheesh!

[Tiadoppler]

Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike

It's subtle, but it shows that an unarmed strike is one option for making a melee weapon attack.

[quark12000]

That must be a different printing of the book than the one I have. Mine says, "When you are unarmed, you can fight in melee by making an unarmed strike, as shown in the weapon table in chapter 5."

Why beat around the bush? Just say "Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks" in the Monk section!

[Tiadoppler]

Okay, yeah, I have a recent PHB that says it includes some corrections. Gee... It's almost like people got so confused by the poor original wording that they had to make a new version of the book to correct it :D

[sambojin]

This got cleared up on druids too. All those various attack actions, even multi-attack, are still melee weapon attacks while wildshaped. Something in the MM or DMG specifically calls this out.

So basically, any melee (not spell or ranged weapon) attack is a "melee weapon attack". It's a blanket term, rather than a "using a *weapon* instead of punching/biting/clawing something" thing.

Wow, DnD and poorly worded core rules. Who would've thunk it?

[quark12000]

This got cleared up on druids too. All those various attack actions, even multi-attack, are still melee weapon attacks while wildshaped. Something in the MM or DMG specifically calls this out.

So basically, any melee (not spell or ranged weapon) attack is a "melee weapon attack". It's a blanket term, rather than a "using a *weapon* instead of punching/biting/clawing something" thing.

Wow, DnD and poorly worded core rules. Who would've thunk it?

Word.

I was doing some research, and apparently people were confused about being able to use unarmed strikes for Divine Smite attacks, too. Why not just call them melee attacks and say that unarmed strikes are melee attacks? It's the word "weapon" that is confusing.

[Theodoxus]

You can get nearly the same stats with a variant human, and grab a feat at first level. You didn't speak to why you chose wood elf; they make amazing monks with all the right stat boosts, but unless you absolutely need darkvision, human tends to be better... either Mobility (which will make you faster than a wood elf) or Alert (as noted prior) are good choices. Healer is amazing for off healing and meshes well if you take Medicine as a skill.

I only mention this as I see a ton of wood elf monks... I'd go that route for archery - a longbow is an amazing weapon in the hands of a monk. Long range attacks and can flurry of blows anything in melee range.

[quark12000]

You can get nearly the same stats with a variant human, and grab a feat at first level. You didn't speak to why you chose wood elf; they make amazing monks with all the right stat boosts, but unless you absolutely need darkvision, human tends to be better... either Mobility (which will make you faster than a wood elf) or Alert (as noted prior) are good choices. Healer is amazing for off healing and meshes well if you take Medicine as a skill.

I only mention this as I see a ton of wood elf monks... I'd go that route for archery - a longbow is an amazing weapon in the hands of a monk. Long range attacks and can flurry of blows anything in melee range.

I've never played a Monk, and I haven't played an elf for a long time. Wood elf seemed to mesh well with Monk ability requirements, so I chose that. And I'm already playing a human in a different campaign, variety, you know?

[MxKit]

One quick note: Since you get 5 ASI's, and it'll take 4 of them to max out Dex and Wis, you'll have one feat to play with. Alert is a good feat whatever subclass you choose. If you decide to go with Open Hand, Mobile is also a very good feat, and might actually be even better for you.

However, if you decide to go Drunken Master, imo it's not worth taking the Mobile feat, because you get a significant chunk of what makes it good as a subclass feature anyway (as well as a significant chunk of what makes the Athlete feat good).

[Christian]

Actually, I meant 3.5 and Pathfinder.
Ditto that. One of the best things about 5th Edition compared to 3.5 and 4 is that it's really hard to massively pump your attack rolls.

That said, while maxing out Dexterity is really important for a monk, Wisdom is a bit less important, and you can certainly get by with a 16 or 18 long term if there are feats you really want. Dexterity modifies:

Attack rolls
Damage rolls
Armor Class
Dexterity saving throws
Initiative
Deflect Missiles damage soak


Assuming you're going Open Hand, your Wisdom modifier affects:

Armor Class
Wisdom saving throws
Stunning Fist save DC
Open Hand Technique save DC
Tranquility save DC
Quivering Palm save DC


Of that Wisdom list, what you'll miss most from having a lower Wisdom is the AC and the saving throw DC bonus for your Open Hand Technique and Stunning Fist abilities. (Your own Wisdom saving throws decrease massively in importance once you get Stillness of Mind at 7th level, Tranquility is just lame, and Quivering Palm comes too late for you to care that much in most campaigns.) Generally speaking, passing up a point of Wisdom bonus gets you hit about once more every other combat, and has opponents saving against your abilities an extra once or maybe twice per adventuring day. Those are statistically noticeable effects, but unless your DM rolls in the open so you can see when he exactly hit your AC or saving throw DC, you'd never notice the difference without keeping a careful chart of hits and misses, made and missed saving throws.

[quark12000]

I don't know, I think it might be best to max out my AC. That Mobile feat is pretty sweet, though.

[Citan]

Can I get some help with my monk's point buy? He's a Wood Elf. The current distribution I have is: STR 8, DEX 15, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10. This bumps up to DEX 17 and WIS 15. What do you think?


Not really. Think I will go either Open Hand or Drunken Master tradition, if that helps.



That looks better. I did it the other way because I'd been told to always have odd numbers in stats you want to increase.
Honestly both are fine. I'd say it depends mainly on what you want first.

If you want a feat for your 4th level, such as Mobile, then it means you won't bump stats before level 8, equal eight full levels in which it's a net loss for you if you go 17/15 compared to 16/16 (same DEX modifier, lesser WIS modifier).

If your priority is to grab "half-feats" (feats that also increase the stat) then 17/15 is good because it means you get a 18 early.

This is a specially good case for Variant Human who can start with a Half-feat and take another half-feat at 4. ^^ But it's not your case.

I usually go the 16/16 way because as far as maxing the two main stats go, it's exactly the same (4 ASI) but the lesser cost means you have more points to distribute elsewhere as Tiadoppler illustrated. :)
And for most Monks I grab Mobile ASAP because it does much more to increase my survivability than 1 point or AC. ;)


Should I max out DEX and WIS? That would be a 20 AC. Still kind of low, but the best a Monk can do. I've been doing more reading, and as a Wood Elf he can use a longsword for 1d10 damage. Better than the 1d4 for unarmed.
I wonder what games you have been playing to consider 20 AC as "kind of low". XD
If you are that worried though, then all the more reason to grab Mobile first thing. The best defense has always been and will always be "out of reach" after all. ;)

Also, maxing DEX and WIS is a very fine way to play a Monk.
With that said, if you play in a party, who you know are good at teamwork, you could instead ditch one of the DEX ASI to instead take another feat or a Cleric/Druid dip.
There are many ways to get advantage, either self or from a friend, so one less point on attack rolls is not that bad. However, especially as a Open Hand, you want a DC as high as possible so your effects, especially Stunning Strike, are reliable. So WIS 20 by level 16 is kinda mandatory imo. ;)

[quark12000]

I usually go the 16/16 way because as far as maxing the two main stats go, it's exactly the same (4 ASI) but the lesser cost means you have more points to distribute elsewhere as Tiadoppler illustrated. :)

That's what I ended up doing (16/16).



And for most Monks I grab Mobile ASAP because it does much more to increase my survivability than 1 point or AC. ;)

Hmm...



I wonder what games you have been playing to consider 20 AC as "kind of low". XD

Pathfinder and 3.5.


If you are that worried though, then all the more reason to grab Mobile first thing. The best defense has always been and will always be "out of reach" after all. ;)

Also, maxing DEX and WIS is a very fine way to play a Monk.
With that said, if you play in a party, who you know are good at teamwork, you could instead ditch one of the DEX ASI to instead take another feat or a Cleric/Druid dip.
There are many ways to get advantage, either self or from a friend, so one less point on attack rolls is not that bad. However, especially as a Open Hand, you want a DC as high as possible so your effects, especially Stunning Strike, are reliable. So WIS 20 by level 16 is kinda mandatory imo. ;)

It's for an online Adventurers' League game, so I really don't know any of the folks I'll be playing with.

[Christian]

However, especially as a Open Hand, you want a DC as high as possible so your effects, especially Stunning Strike, are reliable. So WIS 20 by level 16 is kinda mandatory imo. ;)
I still have to question this advice. Hearing that this is an AL game helps set expectation levels ... Most AL adventures will have no or one long rest opportunities, and one or two short rest opportunities. An 8th level monk who bumped Dexterity or took feats rather than bumping Wis, compared to one who bumped Wisdom with both ASI's, and who uses every single ki point on stunning strikes or Open Fist maneuvers that give saves, will see about two more successful saving throws per adventure, on average. Say, ten out of twenty attempts, rather than eight out of twenty for the Wisdom maxer. I promise, you'll have to be watching very carefully to even notice that difference. Meanwhile, you're suffering every round of every combat with lower attack and damage rolls, and without being able to use the benefits of Mobility (or whatever feat you would have taken).

No matter what you do, within the limits of bounded accuracy, you'll never get those abilities to the point that they seem 'reliable'. You're always going to get annoyed at how often the enemies seem to make those saves in critical situations, no matter how much you try to pump your Wisdom.

[quark12000]

Right now I'm leaning towards: Mobile feat, DEX, WIS, DEX, WIS for the ability score increases. Hopefully I might get some magic items in there sometime.

[Citan]

I still have to question this advice. Hearing that this is an AL game helps set expectation levels ... Most AL adventures will have no or one long rest opportunities, and one or two short rest opportunities.[B] An 8th level monk[/B who bumped Dexterity or took feats rather than bumping Wis, compared to one who bumped Wisdom with both ASI's], and who uses every single ki point on stunning strikes or Open Fist maneuvers that give saves, will see about two more successful saving throws per adventure, on average. Say, ten out of twenty attempts, rather than eight out of twenty for the Wisdom maxer. I promise, you'll have to be watching very carefully to even notice that difference. Meanwhile, you're suffering every round of every combat with lower attack and damage rolls, and without being able to use the benefits of Mobility (or whatever feat you would have taken).

No matter what you do, within the limits of bounded accuracy, you'll never get those abilities to the point that they seem 'reliable'. You're always going to get annoyed at how often the enemies seem to make those saves in critical situations, no matter how much you try to pump your Wisdom.
I agree with you that you are always subjected by the randomness of the die, but you are talking about a 8th Monk here.
I was talking about a 16th level having max WIS. A 16th level Monk, which means a 16 ki pool per short rest, in a party that presumably have many ways to get short rests (in fact, even a 8th level party should have some ways to get a short rest unless there is neither Wizard nor Bard nor anybody with Ritual Caster).
So I really don't see how both views are incompatible.

Besides that, as I said, you usually have many MANY ways to get better attacks, just a plain Bless or Bardic Inspiration or Wolf Barb or Fighter pushing prone, or yourself putting prone or stunning. Ways to make your WIS DC harder to beat? None barring a friend being Diviner Wizard, Wild Magic Sorcerer or having Bestow Curse.


Right now I'm leaning towards: Mobile feat, DEX, WIS, DEX, WIS for the ability score increases. Hopefully I might get some magic items in there sometime.
My personal opinion is that this is the best way to go when you never know with which party you are gonna play. So since you seem to mainly play in AL go for it.

If you manage later to find a stable party that has ways to help with attack rolls, it will still be time to consider a switch of DEX/WIS bump order. :)

[quark12000]

How do you put someone prone?

[Christian]

How do you put someone prone?

It's one of the options under Open Hand Technique. Whenever a monk of the Way of the Open Hand tradition uses a ki point to make a flurry of blows, any opponent hit with one of the attacks granted may be forced to make a Dexterity saving throw to avoid being knocked prone (among other options). It's one of the cooler Open Hand abilities; most knockdown powers are limited to size Large or smaller creatures, and are resisted by Strength. A halfling monk can knock a cloud giant on his butt, which is always hysterical.