E6 3.5/PF Lesser Feats

[BowStreetRunner]

It has always been evident that not all feats are created equal. I've been toying with the idea of labeling certain feats as 'lesser' feats. At 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th levels would get a lesser feat, while you would receive a standard feat at 1st, 3rd, and 6th. After you max out at 6th level lesser feats would cost half as many XP.

Feats like Dodge, the Heritage Feats from the Planar Handbook, Ceremony Feats from Dragon Magic, and Background Feats from Savage Species seem like obvious choices for lesser status, as they are highly conditional and the rewards are less than astonishing. I might also include the feats that give +2 on two skill checks (Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, etc.), or +2 on saves (Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes).

Which feats should I consider lesser feats and which ones should I definitely avoid underrating?

(Note that I am transitioning from 3.5 to PF, so will probably need to reconsider some of these depending on how the PF version (if one exists) of the feats work in an E6 format.)

[Zaq]

Honestly, while this is a good idea and I totally agree with the principle (having done something very similar myself many years ago), you'll end up doing way less work by just looking at everything on a case-by-case basis on the fly (i.e., when a player expresses interest in it, not necessarily ahead of time).

The examples you've got are an excellent starting point and serve to kind of get the ball rolling (so you're not doing the 5e-style "this is a thing and we'll tell the players that it's a thing, but we're not going to give the players any guidelines about how the thing works" kind of design), and if you feel like throwing a few more on the pile, then feel free. I'd suggest any feat whose benefit can be described as "wait, why do you need a feat instead of just a skill check to do that?" or "wait, so you're just paying a feat to remove an arbitrary restriction that shouldn't have been there in the first place?" So things like Track, Investigate, Knight Training, Undead Meldshaper, Surrogate Spellcasting, Nonverbal Spell, etc. But otherwise, let your players come to you with minor feats that they're interested in and then have a discussion with them about whether those feats make more sense as regular feats or as lesser feats. Leave the door open, but don't try to prepare in advance for every possible eventuality.

(This can also, depending on your tastes and your group's tastes, leave open the possibility of homebrew "this is a character quirk that's probably a tiny bit too powerful to just give out for no reason, but it's not on par with what should be granted with a feat or a class level" options. I recall one player in the game where I implemented a similar lesser feat system requested the ability to have his beard be able to accurately predict local weather phenomena. I don't think he was even a dwarf. I don't particularly recall why he wanted that, and that exact option may be a wee bit too goofy for some groups, but it was a perfect sort of thing to spend a lesser feat on. Now that I think about it, that may have even been a little underpowered, but I think the example is illustrative.)

Side note: How do you feel about lesser feats being used as prereqs? There's no shortage of player options that would be a lot more interesting if they didn't require so many garbage prereq feats, and many of said garbage prereq feats are easily minor enough to be on your lesser feat list. This can allow players to access those feats/PrCs for a significantly lessened build cost. Is this bug or feature in your eyes? I personally view it as feature, but I can see a mindset where the idea of using these lesser feats as actual building blocks in your character's power structure rather than as small flavor ribbons would be frowned upon. (Let me be very clear: I would not personally agree with such a mindset, as I think it's generally pretty poor game design to hide interesting options behind garbage prereq paywalls, but I don't want to presume too terribly much.)

[Florian]

(Note that I am transitioning from 3.5 to PF, so will probably need to reconsider some of these depending on how the PF version (if one exists) of the feats work in an E6 format.)

3.5E feats had a power scale from roughly 1-6, so I guess what you mean are the ones that are on the lowest rung(s). PF feats have a power scale from roughly 3-4, meaning fewer highlights, but also fewer stinkers. When making the transition, be advised to forget all your 3.5E knowledge and expectations. PF feat chains tend to be a bit longer and some of them are geared towards only fully coming "online" after hitting 10th level. Also note the interplay between feats and class specific resources (rogue talents, rage powers, bloodlines, and so on.)

[BowStreetRunner]

Side note: How do you feel about lesser feats being used as prereqs? There's no shortage of player options that would be a lot more interesting if they didn't require so many garbage prereq feats, and many of said garbage prereq feats are easily minor enough to be on your lesser feat list. This can allow players to access those feats/PrCs for a significantly lessened build cost. Is this bug or feature in your eyes? I personally view it as feature, but I can see a mindset where the idea of using these lesser feats as actual building blocks in your character's power structure rather than as small flavor ribbons would be frowned upon. (Let me be very clear: I would not personally agree with such a mindset, as I think it's generally pretty poor game design to hide interesting options behind garbage prereq paywalls, but I don't want to presume too terribly much.)
This is one of the primary reasons I'm considering this. In your first 5 levels you normally only get 2 feats plus any bonus feats from race or class. So qualifying for something at 6th level that requires 3 or more throwaway feats is going to be difficult to pull off. In order to incorporate more Prestige Classes in my P6 game I'm reworking some of them to have Epic feats that go with them to bring some of their higher level abilities back into the game. But this still left me with the garbage prereq feats that could make such builds unworkable. The lesser feat system allows 6 feats in the first 5 levels (2 standard, and 2 lesser) which makes these options much more viable.


3.5E feats had a power scale from roughly 1-6, so I guess what you mean are the ones that are on the lowest rung(s). PF feats have a power scale from roughly 3-4, meaning fewer highlights, but also fewer stinkers. When making the transition, be advised to forget all your 3.5E knowledge and expectations. PF feat chains tend to be a bit longer and some of them are geared towards only fully coming "online" after hitting 10th level. Also note the interplay between feats and class specific resources (rogue talents, rage powers, bloodlines, and so on.)
Since there are only going to be 6 real levels in this game, it will depend on which chains can come online through Epic feat progression and which need 10 actual class levels to pull off. As for the interplay between feats and class resources, I'll definitely have to look into that.


Honestly, while this is a good idea and I totally agree with the principle (having done something very similar myself many years ago), you'll end up doing way less work by just looking at everything on a case-by-case basis on the fly (i.e., when a player expresses interest in it, not necessarily ahead of time).
I am probably going to go a similar route. My original plan was to prepare a core set of rules (races, classes, feats, spells, etc.) that would be included and then let players know that they are free to request anything else from Pathfinder, 3.5, or compatible system and I will review on a case-by-case basis. But I don't want to make the mistake of under/over-rating something that the community can point to in advance and say, watch out for this, it's a trap! :smallwink:

[weckar]

Combat Casting appears like it would be a big one to me. It's almost standard caster training - but not quite.

[martixy]

Honestly, while this is a good idea and I totally agree with the principle (having done something very similar myself many years ago), you'll end up doing way less work by just looking at everything on a case-by-case basis on the fly (i.e., when a player expresses interest in it, not necessarily ahead of time).

But it's good to broadcast that intent. Cuz if it were me as a player, I'd probably never express interest in these unless I knew there was a way to not cripple my build.

[Florian]

Since there are only going to be 6 real levels in this game, it will depend on which chains can come online through Epic feat progression and which need 10 actual class levels to pull off. As for the interplay between feats and class resources, I'll definitely have to look into that.

Broadly speaking, class features are more important than feats in PF, with feats playing only a supporting role.

So for a "P6" game, there's no real need to exclude or modify the longer feat chains in any way, they're not that powerful or gamebreakinig.

What you have to deal with are the feats that either grant more class features (The "Extra" line of feats, for example) or that grant a "diminished" version of a class feature (Flag Bearer is a non-scaling Banner class feature, for example).