Quicken Spell: Is it really a top tier choice?

[LeonBH]

While discussing Extend Spell, Quicken Spell was brought up and questioned as a top tier choice. I'd like to redirect that conversation here and discuss about Quicken Spell's power, if it's really good or overrated, and if it's not worth a level 3 pick but worth a level 10 pick.

Here's the uses of Quicken Spell as I pulled from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549704-Extend-Spell-Still-the-worst-metamagic/page3).


How to use Quicken.
1. Double tap with the same spell on the same turn. Spells which require an action to use, when cast as a bonus action, can be used twice in that round.

* Witch Bolt
* Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
* Major Image
* Telekinesis
* Sunbeam

2. Maintaining a spell that uses an action, while casting spells at the same time. The follow up to (1), you can keep casting leveled spells while activating the specific spells which require your ongoing action to use.

* Watery Sphere
* Crown of Madness
* Dominate X
* Silent Image
* Wall of Light

3. Cast a cantrip on the same turn as casting a Quickened spell. The most well known use of the metamagic, allowing for two Eldritch Blasts in the same turn, but also casting a cantrip on the same turn as a leveled spell.

4. Use your action defensively. Using an action to Dodge, Disengage, cast Blade Ward, or drink a potion.


Tactics using Quicken.
1. Score a critical hit. Get in close, cast Quickened Hold Person, cast Booming Blade, and back off without taking opportunity attacks.

2. Finish off anyone who survived an AoE assault. Level a bunch of minions using a Fireball, and finish any left standing with a cantrip.

3. Get three attacks by level 8. Combining with Extra Attack and Quickened Booming Blade, a gish can get three weapon attacks before the Fighter gets his third one at level 11.

4. Testing resistance with a cantrip. Using Firebolt, test if the enemy is resistant to Fire damage. If not, follow up with a Quickened Scorching Ray. It so, Quicken a non-Fire spell.

5. Force movement to arrange foes in your AoE range, and Quicken an AoE spell. Use Lightning Bolt, Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast, or just the Shove action to arrange foes in a neat array. Then Quicken an AoE spell.


Arguments against Quicken.
1. Expensive. Costs 2 Sorcery Points, putting it in the top 3 most expensive metamagics.

2. Works better late game for a pure Sorcerer. It's been argued that the Sorcerer doesn't derive enough value from its action, or doesn't have access to good enough spells, or doesn't have the Sorcery Points to sustain it, at 3rd level. Thus it's a better 10th level pick.


Am I missing anything? Are the above enough to consider Quicken Spell as a top tier choice? Is it worth the pick at level 3, when it costs 2 Sorcery Points to use?

[Potato_Priest]

When I'm building a general purpose sorcerer I usually grab Twin and Subtle as my metamagics, and I haven't regretted it yet. They seem to be more universally applicable, and twin has at least some utility out of combat (twinned invisibility is absolutely amazing). If I was building a sorlock though, I would of course choose quickened for enhanced EB spam.

[Deathtongue]

Unless you're building a Sorcadin or an EB Sorlock, I think Quicken Spell works better as a 10th-level pick instead of a 3rd-level pick. A lot of QS's really good applications don't start to come online until that level and QS is a metamagic hog. Not to the extent of Heighten or Twin, but QS still eats through them.

Empower / Subtle / Twin / Careful works better as your first pick.

[Squiddish]

Okay, option 1 on this list is against the rules, as clarified by SA. Changing the casting time to 1 bonus action means it must follow the rules on bonus action spells. Speaking as a DM, I'd probably houserule it out if quicken started to lag too far behind, but honestly I'm not sure any of my players would ever choose quicken in the first place.

[mephnick]

Quicken is best as someone with another betture use of their full action (ie an extra attack) so no it's not that great for a pure Sorcerer.

[Tanarii]

(Edit: this post is specifically about #3, quicken something + cantrips)

As I said in the other thread, the value of the SP to quicken is the same as turning them into a 1st level spell as a bonus action.

In terms of action economy, that 1st level spell slot used on the next round, is worth 2 cantrip. One of the round of quicken and one in the next round. If the 1st level spell is used as a reaction (Sheild for example), the comparison is to one cantrip the first round, since either way you can cast a cantrip the second round. (The actual spell quickened is a wash, since you're casting it either way as a bonus action or action on the first round.) Obviously this breaks down if you're planning on casting a different leveled spell the next round, and you're pushing back the slot vs cantrip value to the round after that.

That means at level 1-4 you're looking at, for example, 2d10 from Fire Bolt vs 3d8 from Chromatic Orb. So less valuable that a first level slot. But that's contingent on having a damaging 1st level spell to cast.

Meanwhile at lvl 5 that goes to 4d10 Fire Bolt vs 3d8 Chromatic Orb. At level 6 a Dragon Sorc would also get +2*Cha vs +Cha. So more valuable to Quicken.

Of course at level 5-6, you're also looking at 2.5 Quicken vs 1 extra Fireball. That's effectively 3 extra cantrips (not 4), or 6d10 single target damage +1 SP to spare, vs 8d6 save for 1/2 to multiple targets. Assuming you can hit 2 targets, it's probably more valuable as a Fireball.

So IMO on a straight damage comparison, it won't usually be worth it unless you don't have the attack spells. Or you're going to be quickening and casting leveled spells with existing slots anyway until the end of combat so an extra slot is pointless.

This is, of course, all white room. YMMV drastically in actual play. :smallamused:

[LeonBH]

Okay, option 1 on this list is against the rules, as clarified by SA. Changing the casting time to 1 bonus action means it must follow the rules on bonus action spells. Speaking as a DM, I'd probably houserule it out if quicken started to lag too far behind, but honestly I'm not sure any of my players would ever choose quicken in the first place.

This is incorrect. Sage Advice allows the use of (1) (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf). You also can't put "using a spell's effect with your action" in the same category as "casting a spell", so there is no rule preventing the use of Quickened Sunbeam (for example), and then using your action to fire another Sunbeam from your already ongoing concentration spell immediately.


Does the rule on casting a bonus action spell applywhen you take a bonus action granted by a spell?

The rule on casting a spell as a bonus action (see PH, 202) applies only on the turn you cast the spell. For example, spiritual weapon can be cast as a bonus action, and it lasts for 1 minute. [...] That bonus action does not involve casting a spell, despite the fact that it’s granted by a spell

[Dudewithknives]

If I could only pick one metamagic it would be subtle, but quicken is one of the best.

Subtle

Then either twin or quicken.

[LeonBH]

(Edit: this post is specifically about #3, quicken something + cantrips)

As I said in the other thread, the value of the SP to quicken is the same as turning them into a 1st level spell as a bonus action.

In terms of action economy, that 1st level spell slot used on the next round, is worth 2 cantrip. One of the round of quicken and one in the next round. If the 1st level spell is used as a reaction (Sheild for example), the comparison is to one cantrip the first round, since either way you can cast a cantrip the second round. (The actual spell quickened is a wash, since you're casting it either way as a bonus action or action on the first round.) Obviously this breaks down if you're planning on casting a different leveled spell the next round, and you're pushing back the slot vs cantrip value to the round after that.

That means at level 1-4 you're looking at, for example, 2d10 from Fire Bolt vs 3d8 from Chromatic Orb. So less valuable that a first level slot. But that's contingent on having a damaging 1st level spell to cast.

Meanwhile at lvl 5 that goes to 4d10 Fire Bolt vs 3d8 Chromatic Orb. At level 6 a Dragon Sorc would also get +2*Cha vs +Cha. So more valuable to Quicken.

Of course at level 5-6, you're also looking at 2.5 Quicken vs 1 extra Fireball. That's effectively 3 extra cantrips (not 4), or 6d10 single target damage +1 SP to spare, vs 8d6 save for 1/2 to multiple targets. Assuming you can hit 2 targets, it's probably more valuable as a Fireball.

So IMO on a straight damage comparison, it won't usually be worth it unless you don't have the attack spells. Or you're going to be quickening and casting leveled spells with existing slots anyway until the end of combat so an extra slot is pointless.

This is, of course, all white room. YMMV drastically in actual play. :smallamused:

Forgive me here, because I'm not following the logic of the comparison. I might need a bit more elaboration.

In terms of action economy, you're saying that the 2 Sorcery Points are equal to two cantrips, because you can use your action this turn to buy one cantrip, and your action the next turn to buy another cantrip? But why not cast a leveled spell the next round instead?

Also note that, with Magic Initiate: Warlock, a Sorcerer could set up a Hex, and on the next round, use Scorching Ray as well as Eldritch Blast. For a 2nd level spell slot and 2 Sorcery Points at level 5, that is 11d6+2d10 (~49.5) on the second round. So using a damage-wise comparison to Firebolt (~11), instead of action economy, that is slightly more than four Firebolts.

[PeteNutButter]

I would add disengage to the play defensively part. It's basically like a cunning action for sorcery points.

There are also all sorts of situational things that may require an action. It still feels like it's made for gishes, to attack and shoot a spell.

[Zene]

The list pretty much covers it, but misses a lot of the nuance.

I wrote more extensively about this in the other thread, but: A lot of the power of quicken is having the option, after you take your action, whether you want to cast a bonus action spell/cantrip; or casting a quickened spell, and then having the choice of what to do with your cantrip. Now of course you can only do this if your action wasn't used to cast a spell; so you have to play a little differently. But there are a number of ways to set this up --the most straighforward of which being a cantrip-heavy blaster (including EB builds) and MC'ing so you are attacking/grappling with your action (for example, sorcadins).

In other words, if played right, it allows you to choose the most effective follow-up action--and take it, immediately. Instead of having to wait a round. A round during which conditions may have changed.

Very simple examples:
-Quickened fireball, then target any survivors with an Eldritch Blast
-Sorcadin makes two attacks with melee, enemy is still standing but close to death, so he quickens a booming blade
-Firebolt on the enemy, if he's not resistant you follow up with a scorching ray; if he is resistant follow up with a chromatic orb.
-Eldritch Blast or Lightning Whip someone into the right position for an AOE (so now they're all in line for your lightning bolt, or all close enough together for your fireball)
(much more detailed examples and explanation in the other thread)

There's probably an easier way to state this point, if anyone feels like doing so, go for it.

::::Edit::::

After some reflection. I think the list "how to use quicken", while it's pretty much factually accurate, really should instead be more like "benefits of quicken". Or maybe that needs to be a second list. I see the benefits of quicken as:

Enabling 1-round nova/burst plays (usually with damage but also sometimes with utility --like double telekinesis, or double repelling blast to push an enemy twice as far in a certain direction)
Giving you the ability to cast a spell and take some other action in the turn (defensive, interactive, evading/dashing, activating a magic item, drinking a potion, etc)
Allowing you to do a thing; see the result; and then immediately do a second thing based on that result without having to wait another round (the scenario described above)

[UnderwaterAir]

Twinned and Quickened are almost always my first two.
Then Subtle and Heightened.

I really can't find good arguments against Quicken and Twin.

[mephnick]

Twinned and Quickened are almost always my first two.
I really can't find good arguments against Quicken and Twin.

For a pure sorcerer, the argument against Quicken is that it's much better as a level 10 choice than a level 3 choice. The spells it really shines with (concentration spells that require round to round actions) aren't really available until around that point.

[Tanarii]

Forgive me here, because I'm not following the logic of the comparison. I might need a bit more elaboration.

In terms of action economy, you're saying that the 2 Sorcery Points are equal to two cantrips, because you can use your action this turn to buy one cantrip, and your action the next turn to buy another cantrip? But why not cast a leveled spell the next round instead?Because you have to compare to the round in which the 1st level slot you're buying for 2SP instead is used instead of a cantrip. Or for Fireball, vs two rounds of quickened spells with cantrips, plus one without (for 3 cantrips total). If you cast another leveled slot then you're comparing to the round after that in which you use the 1st level slot.

So if you were planning on doing leveled spells for 2 rounds and a cantrip on the third, vs a 1st level spell, the comparison becomes:
Round 1: cantrip + quicken spell vs unquickened spell + convert to level 1 slot
Round 2: leveled spell (either way)
Round 3: cantrip vs level 1 spell
Net: 2 cantrips vs level 1 spell

Note that at the lower levels we're comparing to (pre level 10) you're going to run out of leveled slots pretty fast if you're casting more than 2 per battle, although that can happen if you're facing 3 Deadly battles per day. But those tend to go more rounds.

But like I said, if you run out of rounds before you'd get to cast the slot you're trading for, then it changes things.


Also note that, with Magic Initiate: Warlock, a Sorcerer could set up a Hex, and on the next round, use Scorching Ray as well as Eldritch Blast. For a 2nd level spell slot and 2 Sorcery Points at level 5, that is 11d6+2d10 (~49.5) on the second round. So using a damage-wise comparison to Firebolt (~11), instead of action economy, that is slightly more than four Firebolts.Yep. Using Hex & EB will definitely change things. That means you're comparing 4d10+4d6 (2 EB) vs a 1st level spell. Or 6d10+6d6 (single target) plus 1SP spare vs Fireball. Assuming you keep the Hex on one target. (The Scorching Ray is a wash because you're casting that either way. I assume.)

[Jerrykhor]

Twinned and Quickened are almost always my first two.
Then Subtle and Heightened.

I really can't find good arguments against Quicken and Twin.

I used to think like that, until i found the fun in Subtle. It can cause so much mischief. Also, enemy can't counterspell you.

[MrStabby]

Is there a use with a readied action? Cast a fireball as a bonus action, ready an action to cast a second fireball on someone else's turn? Seems like a potentially powerful nova ability.

[Talamare]

Slightly related to Option 1 for Quicken

Melf Minute Meteor uses an Action to cast and Bonus Action to Activate

Can it Activate twice on the turn you cast it?


Is there a use with a readied action? Cast a fireball as a bonus action, ready an action to cast a second fireball on someone else's turn? Seems like a potentially powerful nova ability.

When you Ready a spell, you immediately cast it then hold it. So negative.

[samcifer]

I came up with a really good combo of Dragon's Breath on yourself, then on following turn(s), use the breath attack as your action, then quicken another spell such as Fireball, Shatter or Lightning bolt. Never got to actually use it before my sorcerer character died, but it can be pretty powerful. The weaknesses are requiring a lot of movement to get in to hit and retreat, needing good hp and needing Warcaster in case you get hit to help avoid losing DB.

[MrStabby]

Slightly related to Option 1 for Quicken

Melf Minute Meteor uses an Action to cast and Bonus Action to Activate

Can it Activate twice on the turn you cast it?



When you Ready a spell, you immediately cast it then hold it. So negative.

I asked because I have seen tables play it differently - so readying a spell requires a reaction to counterspell it when it is released rather than cast, that readying a spell outside or range then walking into range is a way to circumvent counterspell and so on.

As a side note, it then still allows a double fireball on one turn I beleive - ready one for when an enemy is in line of sight. Next turn walk round the corner and release the fireball cast on your previous turn then cast another fireball.

Fun times.

[PhantomSoul]

Slightly related to Option 1 for Quicken

Melf Minute Meteor uses an Action to cast and Bonus Action to Activate

Can it Activate twice on the turn you cast it?

It seems like not, since it specifies "When you cast the spell — and as a bonus action on each of your turns thereafter — you can expend one or two of the meteors", which means you can't use a bonus action to launch meteors until the turn after you cast the spell.

[Talamare]

I asked because I have seen tables play it differently - so readying a spell requires a reaction to counterspell it when it is released rather than cast, that readying a spell outside or range then walking into range is a way to circumvent counterspell and so on.

As a side note, it then still allows a double fireball on one turn I beleive - ready one for when an enemy is in line of sight. Next turn walk round the corner and release the fireball cast on your previous turn then cast another fireball.

Fun times.

I don't see "tables play it differently" as legit in this case. This is RAW vs Home Rule.

When you Ready a Spell; you immediately Cast the Spell then Hold it.
-- This is also your chance to Counter Spell it.

When the Trigger activates; you may use your Reaction to Release the Spell.
-- You may NOT Counter Spell the Release.

This does allow; as you said to potentially have 2 Fireballs in 1 turn.

Turn 1 - Ready Fireball; Wait
Turn 2 - Cast Fireball; Reaction Release Fireball

Technically, even 3 Fireballs are legal.

The rule is specifically that if you spend a BONUS Action to Cast a Spell; then additional Spells must be Cantrips.
Thus using Action Surge allows you to cast a 3rd Fireball.

Haste sadly limits what Actions you may take with your Haste Action; but it does allow for you to Use an Object.
Question becomes if it allows you to use the Ring of Fireball.

[strangebloke]

Quicken is as good as your action. You're essentially spending a second level spell slot to use an action when you otherwise couldn't. By default, the sorcerer's action options are not worth two SP. You either need multiclassing, a concentration spell like telekinesis, or high level cantrips to make it worthwhile.

At level three, you're expending your highest level spell slot to do... Basically nothing. You could cast shadow blade as a 2nd level spell and boost your damage by 2d8 a round for ten rounds... or you could spend 2 sp and drop an extra 2d8 + STR/DEX (Elf with BB and a longsword) for one round. It's nice to be able to effectively disengage as a bonus action for 2 sp, and still cast a spell, but that's too situational to justify it at level 3 IMO.

Usually about character level 7 is where it becomes worthwhile. At that point the equivalent of a 2nd level spell is not much, and your options for concentration are much better. Even then, if all you're doing is spitting out a cantrip, you might be better using twin to spit out a cantrip for half the same cost. Quickenening a cantrip is most worthwhile if you're using the SCAG cantrips and you also have something active that boosts your damage on a hit like shadow blade.

Overall, better to take at ten, unless you're multiclassing.

[Deathtongue]

Quicken Spell is game-changingly good with the Repelling Blast Eldritch Invocation. It's good even if you just want to double up on Eldritch Blast, but if we're talking about using it in conjunction with Web or Watery Sphere or Wall of Fire? Whoa, nelly.

I generally think pure Sorcerers should hold off on getting Quicken Spell, but if you're playing a Sorlock it should be one of your first picks.

[MrStabby]

I don't see "tables play it differently" as legit in this case. This is RAW vs Home Rule.

When you Ready a Spell; you immediately Cast the Spell then Hold it.
-- This is also your chance to Counter Spell it.

When the Trigger activates; you may use your Reaction to Release the Spell.
-- You may NOT Counter Spell the Release.

This does allow; as you said to potentially have 2 Fireballs in 1 turn.

Turn 1 - Ready Fireball; Wait
Turn 2 - Cast Fireball; Reaction Release Fireball

Technically, even 3 Fireballs are legal.

The rule is specifically that if you spend a BONUS Action to Cast a Spell; then additional Spells must be Cantrips.
Thus using Action Surge allows you to cast a 3rd Fireball.

Haste sadly limits what Actions you may take with your Haste Action; but it does allow for you to Use an Object.
Question becomes if it allows you to use the Ring of Fireball.


RAW is of theoretical interest. The rules people play with are of practical interest. Both are important.

If you have a game that plays other than RAW, what are you going to do? Play something else or play what is "theoretically" right but be sad that it never works as you feel it should

It is like questions like "can you make a melee weapon attack without a weapon?' Or "do monk weapons count as finesse?". Right or wrong tends to matter a lot less than what you are actually going to play with.

[Deathtongue]

I don't see "tables play it differently" as legit in this case. This is RAW vs Home Rule.

When you Ready a Spell; you immediately Cast the Spell then Hold it.
-- This is also your chance to Counter Spell it.

When the Trigger activates; you may use your Reaction to Release the Spell.
-- You may NOT Counter Spell the Release.

This does allow; as you said to potentially have 2 Fireballs in 1 turn.

Turn 1 - Ready Fireball; Wait
Turn 2 - Cast Fireball; Reaction Release Fireball

Technically, even 3 Fireballs are legal.This is generally a kind of naff use of readying an action, though. The round in which you ready the Fireball means you don't have a fireball. And it eats up your reaction and subjects you to concentration checks until you fire off the fireball -- which may not even happen if something like the enemy moves between your buddies or you get stunned. There are occasions where this would be worth it, such as waiting for the wizard to drop a Web so you could then hit them with an Erupting Earth + Earthen Grasp combo, but I don't think it's that exploitative of a rules hack.

[MrStabby]

This is generally a kind of naff use of readying an action, though. The round in which you ready the Fireball means you don't have a fireball. And it eats up your reaction and subjects you to concentration checks until you fire off the fireball -- which may not even happen if something like the enemy moves between your buddies or you get stunned. There are occasions where this would be worth it, such as waiting for the wizard to drop a Web so you could then hit them with an Erupting Earth + Earthen Grasp combo, but I don't think it's that exploitative of a rules hack.

I don't know. I think it can be a brutal ambush if you use that readied action whilst remaining hidden then open action with two fireballs and see how many are surprised.

[Deathtongue]

I don't know. I think it can be a brutal ambush if you use that readied action whilst remaining hidden then open action with two fireballs and see how many are surprised.I'm afraid you can't do that in 5E D&D.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/15/players-readying-actions-outside-combat/

[Squiddish]

This is incorrect. Sage Advice allows the use of (1) (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf). You also can't put "using a spell's effect with your action" in the same category as "casting a spell", so there is no rule preventing the use of Quickened Sunbeam (for example), and then using your action to fire another Sunbeam from your already ongoing concentration spell immediately.

Oh, oops, I misinterpreted option 1.

[LeonBH]

I've tried to summarize the pros and cons of the metamagic in the OP. Did I get it all? Does that mean it isn't a top tier pick after all?

[Jerrykhor]

I've tried to summarize the pros and cons of the metamagic in the OP. Did I get it all? Does that mean it isn't a top tier pick after all?

It always depends who you ask, but IMO only Twinned is top tier. Quickened is just good, but not top tier.

[MrStabby]

It isn't my favourite. I don't think it is top tier but part of the problem is creating a rating that isn't spell specific.

For some spell selections you won't want careful, twinned and maybe not even subtle. Quickened then makes the cut. I find that if you have a spell like lightning bolt you can often dash and cast to great effect.

As pointed out though, quickened gets better at higher levels. How good an extra cantrip is really scales with the power of that cantrip. Also multiclassing helps further. The problem is that others like twinned and empowered scale as well for these spells.

[Mandragola]

Quicken and Polymorph are a good combo.

Option 1 is that you turn into a T-rex and eat the annoying enemy that just got into combat with you. This is preferable to using your bonus action to misty step away.

Option 2 is to polymorph a target and still have your action left, for all kinds of things (perhaps depending on whether the target made its save). So if they turned into a frog, you can grapple them. If not, you can disengage - or whatever.

This applies to all sorts of other things - not just Polymorph. It's very valuable to get to see what a spell does and then still have your action available react to the new situation.