When is WIS too much for a PURE Fighter (No multiclass) ?

[trctelles]

I'm playing the "tanky" Fighter.I'll be doing the frontline along with the party Rogue, but I'll be taking Polearm and etc. We're at lvl 2, and at 3 I'll take Battle Master achetype. We will be playing campaigns like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Curse of Strahd and homebrew with the same characters.

We rolled for stats and I took V-human(Heavy Armor Master). My stats are as following, with racial and +1 STR from HAM:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12


I don't know if we're going all the way to lvl 20, but I'll have the following feats/ASI along the way: PAM at 4th lvl; Sentinel at 6th lvl; GWM OR Resilient (WIS) at 8th lvl, since people told me I'll be needing it to face the dragons from Hoard. I'll end up getting 20 STR at some point. The thing is, if I take PAM, Sentinel, GWM, 20 STR and Resilient (WIS) I'll still have 2 feats/ASI to use.

With Resilient (WIS) I'll have 17 WIS, and since an odd number doesn't give me anything, I thought about pumping it to 18, maybe with Observant.
I just don't see why in the hell I would have 18 WIS with a fighter. I have all the WIS skills, except for Animal Handling and Medicine, and I know WIS is good to have, but I don't have any other uses for it except skills and resisting conditions. If I take Observant I can do some other usefull stuff(mainly Perception checks, since we don't have any WIS based class in ou party) but it seems odd to me to have more WIS than CON with a frontliner.

Am I going too far by getting Resilient (WIS)? I already have a good WIS stat... And if it REALLY is that good to get Resilient (WIS) (them dragons and their fear :smallfurious:), should I really care that I have 17 WIS? Or getting another feat to even it out is too much, and I should focus on pumping my CON to 18 or getting Tough for extra tankiness?

It seems stupid, but I'm torn appart with the doubt... We're probably not playing all the way to 20th lvl, but I want to have everything planed if we do.

[Crgaston]

You can’t have too much wis on a fighter, imo. I can see not taking Observant in exchange for a Con ASI on a melee Fighter, but Resilient is definitely worth it.

My champion archer is in the exact same boat stat wise and will most likely be taking Observant at L16 to even up his 17.

It does make a 1 level Monk dip tempting :)

[djreynolds]

Resilient wisdom is fine.

Dragon fear is awful, and something like protection from evil does not help

Fear and charm will take you out of the fight.

I might take the lucky feat and mage slayer.

Also mobile is quite effective.

[JellyPooga]

You really can't have enough Wisdom; not only does it protect you from a slew of nasty effects, both from spells and monster abilities, but it boosts Perception too, which is an invaluable skill to have. Taking Observant to get 18 Wis? Rock on Fighting Man with a bit of sense, rock on.

[Citan]

I'm playing the "tanky" Fighter.I'll be doing the frontline along with the party Rogue, but I'll be taking Polearm and etc. We're at lvl 2, and at 3 I'll take Battle Master achetype. We will be playing campaigns like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Curse of Strahd and homebrew with the same characters.

We rolled for stats and I took V-human(Heavy Armor Master). My stats are as following, with racial and +1 STR from HAM:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12


I don't know if we're going all the way to lvl 20, but I have the following feats/ASI along the way: PAM at 4th lvl; Sentinel at 6th lvl; GWM OR Resilient (WIS) at 8th lvl, since people told me I'll be needing it to face the dragons from Hoard. I'll end up getting 20 STR at some point. The thing is, if I take PAM, Sentinel, GWM, 20 STR and Resilient (WIS) I'll still have 2 feats/ASI to use.

With Resilient (WIS) I'll have 17 WIS, and since an odd number doesn't give me anything, I thought about pumping it to 18, maybe with Observant.
I just don't see why in the hell I would have 18 WIS with a fighter. I have all WIS skills except for Animal Handling and Medicine, and I know WIS is good to have, but I don't have any other uses for it except skills and resisting conditions. If I take Observant I can do some other usefull stuff, but it seems odd to me to have more WIS than CON with a frontliner.

Am I going too far by getting Resilient (WIS)? I already have a good WIS stat... And if it really is that good to get Resilient (WIS), should I really care that I have 17 WIS? Or getting another feat to even it out is too much, and I should focus on pumping my CON to 18 or getting Tough for extra tankiness?

It seems stupid, but I'm torn appart with the doubt... We're probably not playing all the way to 20th lvl, but I want to have everything planed if we do.
Hi!

You can’t have too much wis on a fighter, imo. I can see not taking Observant in exchange for a Con ASI on a melee Fighter, but Resilient is definitely worth it.

My champion archer is in the exact same boat stat wise and will most likely be taking Observant at L16 to even up his 17.

It does make a 1 level Monk dip tempting :)
+10.
Having a good WIS is nice, but when you get at such a level that DC 15 effects are common, just a +3 won't be enough. So there is your reason to take Resilient: WIS.

As for whether to take Observant or not? I'd take it myself, because you can also grab some Wizard spells (Comprehend Language, Invisibility) that would make you extremely good at spying, whether overly (social events) or covertly (sneaking into an enemy lair).

But you have other options: you could for example bump WIS and CHA and instead grab Inspiring Leader with your last ASI if it fits your character.

Or bump WIS and STR and take Athlet or if allowed Brawny feat for example.

More generally, with such a great WIS, I'd be also tempted "in the void" to get a dip into a WIS class. But it seems your character is geared towards the clad-armor with halberd archetype so Monk is out of question. Druid always bring some good spells but Wild Shape would be useless to you in fight, and I don't feel it meshes well with your character in the first place.
However, I think a Cleric dip could really be worth it, particularly Tempest (for the WIS reaction) or Forge (self-sufficient +1 on weapon or armor) taken at low level (just after Extra Attack or second ASI for example).

Anyways.
Short version: Fighter with 16 WIS and no Resilient is probably not a great idea.
As for keeping an odd score when you have ability to even it, it's a bit of a waste but since you will already end with a +9 bonus, if you really want other feats, it's fine to bear with that 17 imo.

[trctelles]

I forgot to mention that we can only grab stuff from PHB and Xanathar's!

I think I'll go with the 18 WIS with Resilient and Observant. Since I rolled good stats+ V-Human, I can go nuts with a feat-heavy build.
I want to avoid multiclassing, because my character story doesn't really accomodate for anything else besides a Fighter. Although my fighter do believe in the Gods, Bahamut to be more specific, he wouldn't go as much as to be a cleric.

Thanks for the great and fast replies, you guys really helped me! Keep them comming :smallwink:

[djreynolds]

I forgot to mention that we can only grab stuff from PHB and Xanathar's!

I think I'll go with the 18 WIS with Resilient and Observant. Since I rolled good stats+ V-Human, I can go nuts with a feat-heavy build.
I want to avoid multiclassing, because my character story doesn't really accomodate for anything else besides a Fighter. Although my fighter do believe in the Gods, Bahamut to be more specific, he wouldn't go as much as to be a cleric.

Thanks for the great and fast replies, you guys really helped me! Keep them comming :smallwink:

Also magic initiate cannot be ignored.

Warlock you can grab hex and some cantrips
Cleric you can grab bless or protection from evil and some cantrips
Druid for thorn whip cantrip

And ritual caster (cleric) or (druid) you could pull off

Also magic initiate for bard, grab heroism as this protects you from fear from any source

With a high wisdom score now cleric and druid cantrip become decent ranged attacks for you in place of a bow and arrow, thorn whip and sacred flame

[ImproperJustice]

We have a Dwarven Champion in pur group with high Wisdom and Perception.

He role plays it out as that old grizzled veteran that knows his way around a dungeon or battlefield.

[Tanarii]

If the choice is Observent +1 to Wis checks and saves and +5 passive percep, vs +2 Con for +16 HPs (since you'll be making the choice at 16th level by the sounds of it), I'd choose ... to wait and see when (or even if) I get to that level.

Seriously, why lock your self in? Just pencil it in as either/or.


Rock on Fighting Man with a bit of sense, rock on.
5e Wisdom doesn't directly have anything to with (common) sense. Only sensing and intuition. The latter can be considered indirectly one part of common sense, but so can deductive ability from Intelligence. Plus, of course, how good the player skill at making decisions is, since that's not based on attributes but rather the player.

[mephnick]

Well you rolled for stats and thus have all the STR and CON you'll ever need, so you might as well bump your WIS up since it's the most important save in the game.

You can wait until like..level 18 to get 20 STR and 16 CON is fine forever. Don't get sucked in by the white room optimizers.

[Spiritchaser]

I’d echo what many have said, Wisdom is critical.

I’d even say a fighter without resilient wis is weak/limited, and a very... er... unwise build choice.

[djreynolds]

Also don't forget human prodigy.

Expertise in athletics and PAM.... means if you run out of the trip maneuver you can give up an attack to shove an opponent prone.

Or grab expertise in perception

Good luck to you.

But remember even with a very high wisdom save, say +8 even, some of the dragons have save DCs well into the 20s. So team work is always the key

[Malifice]

I'm playing the "tanky" Fighter.I'll be doing the frontline along with the party Rogue, but I'll be taking Polearm and etc. We're at lvl 2, and at 3 I'll take Battle Master achetype. We will be playing campaigns like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Curse of Strahd and homebrew with the same characters.

We rolled for stats and I took V-human(Heavy Armor Master). My stats are as following, with racial and +1 STR from HAM:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12


I don't know if we're going all the way to lvl 20, but I'll have the following feats/ASI along the way: PAM at 4th lvl; Sentinel at 6th lvl; GWM OR Resilient (WIS) at 8th lvl, since people told me I'll be needing it to face the dragons from Hoard. I'll end up getting 20 STR at some point. The thing is, if I take PAM, Sentinel, GWM, 20 STR and Resilient (WIS) I'll still have 2 feats/ASI to use.

With Resilient (WIS) I'll have 17 WIS, and since an odd number doesn't give me anything, I thought about pumping it to 18, maybe with Observant.
I just don't see why in the hell I would have 18 WIS with a fighter. I have all the WIS skills, except for Animal Handling and Medicine, and I know WIS is good to have, but I don't have any other uses for it except skills and resisting conditions. If I take Observant I can do some other usefull stuff(mainly Perception checks, since we don't have any WIS based class in ou party) but it seems odd to me to have more WIS than CON with a frontliner.

Am I going too far by getting Resilient (WIS)? I already have a good WIS stat... And if it REALLY is that good to get Resilient (WIS) (them dragons and their fear :smallfurious:), should I really care that I have 17 WIS? Or getting another feat to even it out is too much, and I should focus on pumping my CON to 18 or getting Tough for extra tankiness?

It seems stupid, but I'm torn appart with the doubt... We're probably not playing all the way to 20th lvl, but I want to have everything planed if we do.

Wisdom deals with Perception and Wisdom saves (both super important). Mechanically they're great.

Whats wrong with a wise fighter? You're a battle hardnened veteran (think Yoda or Obi Wan) whose long years of battle have left you wise to the ways of the world, with an iron will (resilient wisdom) and the ability to spot an ambush before your peers.

[pdegan2814]

I'm playing the "tanky" Fighter.I'll be doing the frontline along with the party Rogue, but I'll be taking Polearm and etc. We're at lvl 2, and at 3 I'll take Battle Master achetype. We will be playing campaigns like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Curse of Strahd and homebrew with the same characters.

We rolled for stats and I took V-human(Heavy Armor Master). My stats are as following, with racial and +1 STR from HAM:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12


I don't know if we're going all the way to lvl 20, but I'll have the following feats/ASI along the way: PAM at 4th lvl; Sentinel at 6th lvl; GWM OR Resilient (WIS) at 8th lvl, since people told me I'll be needing it to face the dragons from Hoard. I'll end up getting 20 STR at some point. The thing is, if I take PAM, Sentinel, GWM, 20 STR and Resilient (WIS) I'll still have 2 feats/ASI to use.

With Resilient (WIS) I'll have 17 WIS, and since an odd number doesn't give me anything, I thought about pumping it to 18, maybe with Observant.
I just don't see why in the hell I would have 18 WIS with a fighter. I have all the WIS skills, except for Animal Handling and Medicine, and I know WIS is good to have, but I don't have any other uses for it except skills and resisting conditions. If I take Observant I can do some other usefull stuff(mainly Perception checks, since we don't have any WIS based class in ou party) but it seems odd to me to have more WIS than CON with a frontliner.

Am I going too far by getting Resilient (WIS)? I already have a good WIS stat... And if it REALLY is that good to get Resilient (WIS) (them dragons and their fear :smallfurious:), should I really care that I have 17 WIS? Or getting another feat to even it out is too much, and I should focus on pumping my CON to 18 or getting Tough for extra tankiness?

It seems stupid, but I'm torn appart with the doubt... We're probably not playing all the way to 20th lvl, but I want to have everything planed if we do.

I'd definitely get Resilient(Wis) by at least 8th if not 6th level. If you're playing the Tank, then you REALLY don't want to be failing either Con or Wis saves. Your Con saves are already going to be good, and Resilient will give your Wis saves a nice boost. If you're really interested in evening out your Wis score, Observant is certainly a solid choice IF your Dungeon Master actually takes Passive Perception into account, some DM's don't do that very well.

I would absolutely try to get that Str score up to 20. If you plan on using the -5/+10 feature of GWM, you'll want every + to your attack score that you can get. As for Con, I'd lean more towards taking the +2 over the Tough feat. The +2 gets you half the HP boost of Tough, as well as a boost to your Con saves. Failing a Con save at high levels SUCKS. OUT. LOUD. I may be biased though, my tanking of late has been as a Barbarian, so the +2 also boosted my AC :)

[trctelles]

I think I've made my mind then.

I'll go for PAM at 4th, Sentinel at 6th, Resilient (WIS) at 8th, GWM at 12th, 20 STR at 14th If I don't have any Belt of Giant Strenght by then(Our DM is OK with us doing side quests for magic items, as long as we request them in advance so he can plan one), otherwise, Observant for the 18 WIS; Lucky at 16th and Tough at 19th (if we do go that far). I think Tough is better than +2 CON at later levels, since I don't think that boosting CON will give me HP from previous lvls, where Tough does.

[Crgaston]

The Con boost does apply retroactively, same as Tough.

Heavy Armor Master and +1 Str/Wis could be an alternative path to Observant and +2 Str if you value durability over enhanced awareness.

[Justin Sane]

I'd suggest taking a good, hard look at the Samurai, from Xanathar's. Free Wisdom Save Proficiency (at lvl7) is always a good thing, and it's a really durable archetype.

[trctelles]

Heavy Armor Master and +1 Str/Wis could be an alternative path to Observant and +2 Str if you value durability over enhanced awareness.

I already have Heavy Armor Master from lvl 1 v-human :smallwink:


I'd suggest taking a good, hard look at the Samurai, from Xanathar's. Free Wisdom Save Proficiency (at lvl7) is always a good thing, and it's a really durable archetype.

My character backstory and my playstyle would not support the Samurai archetype. Although it would help to get the Free WIS save, my character doesn't fit into Samurai.

[Tanarii]

I think Tough is better than +2 CON at later levels, since I don't think that boosting CON will give me HP from previous lvls, where Tough does.CON ASIs definitely apply to all levels and HD you already have.

The comparison is:
Tough: +2 Max Hps / level
vs
Con: +1 Max HP/level, +1 HP/HD spent during Short Rests, +1 Con checks, +1 Con saves

[GlenSmash!]

I've never seen a 5e Character with too much Wisdom. it might be the only stat that is useful for every single character.

[Tanarii]

I've never seen a 5e Character with too much Wisdom. it might be the only stat that is useful for every single character.
Every ability score is useful for every single character, unless your DM is messing up badly. You can never have too much of any of them. What matters is how much more useful a given ability score is relative to other options. :smallamused:

I'd put it as: it is often third ranked for many characters, after their primary stat & Con. Sometimes 4th after a physical attack, magical stat, and Con. For the "typical" non-EK Fighter, it's third after (Str or Dex) then Con. For the rarer GISH built along lines of Str max, Dex 14, Con high, casting stat max, it's usually either 5th or 6th. (Common for Valor Bards IMX.)

That said, I've seen players dump it just because it doesn't fit their character concept, and not regret it at all. But I don't run Tier 3 (yet) or 4.

[GlenSmash!]

Every ability score is useful for every single character, unless your DM is messing up badly. You can never have too much of any of them. What matters is how much more useful a given ability score is relative to other options. :smallamused:

I'd put it as: it is often third ranked for many characters, after their primary stat & Con. Sometimes 4th after a physical attack, magical stat, and Con. For the "typical" non-EK Fighter, it's third after (Str or Dex) then Con. For the rarer GISH built along lines of Str max, Dex 14, Con high, casting stat max, it's usually either 5th or 6th. (Common for Valor Bards IMX.)

That said, I've seen players dump it just because it doesn't fit their character concept, and not regret it at all. But I don't run Tier 3 (yet) or 4.

Yep. I knew I would regret my choice of words :-) For they are indeed wrong words.

For me Wisdom is right behind Constitution for "I won't dump this unless I would enjoy having this stat low for a character concept." Every other stat I've seen dumped for strictly mechanical reasons.

Con of course governs hit points which are vastly useful to have in this game, and Wis covers Perceptions checks which suck to miss and come up terribly often.

I can dump Intelligence and accept that I won't ever try to make recall History, and live in mortal fear of Intellect Devourers. Likewise I can dump Charisma and accept that I will be bad at making friends and influencing people and may be Banished to another plane of existence.

But I would think long and hard about dumping Wisdom and risk being surprised by enemies often and potentially miss out on loot that is behind hidden doors and such.

The last point might be influenced by Official 5e Adventures putting a lot of loot behind perception checks.

[Tanarii]

For me Wisdom is right behind Constitution for "I won't dump this unless I would enjoy having this stat low for a character concept." Every other stat I've seen dumped for strictly mechanical reasons.I don't play much any more, but if I did, with my current rules knowledge, I'd probably go with the following as "default" builds.

Barbarian: 4th after Str, Con, Dex.
Bard: Lore Bard 4th after Cha, Con, Dex. Valor Bard 5th after Cha, Str, Con, Dex.
Cleric: 1st
Druid: 1st
Fighter: 3rd after (Str or Dex), Con for Champ/BM, 4th after (Str or Dex), Int, Con for EK.
Monk: 2nd after Dex
Paladin: 4th after Str, Cha, Con
Ranger: 2nd after Dex
Rogue: 5th after Dex, Int, Cha, Con if I care about spotting creatures more than carrying tricks (Ballbearings etc) or care about jumping distance or I'm going Expertise with Str (Athletics). Otherwise 6th.
Sorcerer: 4th after Cha, Con, Dex.
Warlock: 4th after Cha, Con, Dex. 5th if I want to use Lore skills, so probably 5th for half of Warlock characters. Also 5th for Str (Bladelock). 6th if I want a Lore skills + Str Bladelock.
Wizard: 4th after Int, Con, Dex.

That's averaging around or about 3rd place in terms of overall value across all 12 classes. But in terms of Mode, 4th is the most common after casting stat, Con and Dex. Or Str for Pallys, or Str and Dex for Barbs.

Edit: Glancing at that again, it's pretty clear I value Dex a bit too much for classes that are going to get hit anyway if they're attacked, ie squishy characters. Tactical positioning to avoid being targeted is generally more valuable for such characters. OTOH that applies to being targeted for Wis saves too.

[GlenSmash!]

I don't play much any more, but if I did, with my current rules knowledge, I'd probably go with the following as "default" builds.

Barbarian: 4th after Str, Con, Dex.
Bard: Lore Bard 4th after Cha, Con, Dex. Valor Bard 5th after Cha, Str, Con, Dex.
Cleric: 1st
Druid: 1st
Fighter: 3rd after (Str or Dex), Con for Champ/BM, 4th after (Str or Dex), Int, Con for EK.
Monk: 2nd after Dex
Paladin: 4th after Str, Cha, Con
Ranger: 2nd after Dex
Rogue: 5th after Dex, Int, Cha, Con if I care about spotting creatures more than carrying tricks (Ballbearings etc) or care about jumping distance or I'm going Expertise with Str (Athletics). Otherwise 6th.
Sorcerer: 4th after Cha, Con, Dex.
Warlock: 4th after Cha, Con, Dex. 5th if I want to use Lore skills, so probably 5th for half of Warlock characters. Also 5th for Str (Bladelock). 6th if I want a Lore skills + Str Bladelock.
Wizard: 4th after Int, Con, Dex.

That's averaging around or about 3rd place in terms of overall value across all 12 classes. But in terms of Mode, 4th is the most common after casting stat, Con and Dex. Or Str for Pallys, or Str and Dex for Barbs.

Edit: Glancing at that again, it's pretty clear I value Dex a bit too much for classes that are going to get hit anyway if they're attacked, ie squishy characters. Tactical positioning to avoid being targeted is generally more valuable for such characters. OTOH that applies to being targeted for Wis saves too.

I think you're right

I will say I have played a fair amount of Barbarians, and honestly If I'm using Point Buy or Standard Array my barbarian will end up wearing Medium Armor unless I think fighting unarmored is core to the character concept. And If my Barb is going to wear medium armor I leave both Dex and Con at 14 and never bump them, and if possible get Wisdom to 14 too. So I've run quite a few that go Str>Dex=Con=Wis>Cha=Int and find them pretty comparable as those where I have invested more into Dex and even Con except they make more Wisdom checks and saves.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

For me Wisdom is right behind Constitution for "I won't dump this unless I would enjoy having this stat low for a character concept." Every other stat I've seen dumped for strictly mechanical reasons.

I've done that, by the way. It was a lot of fun and I mitigated things by taking Alert as soon as possible, so even though I never saw things coming, I was always ready for them anyway.

[Strangways]

I'd take the Alert feat over a WIS boost - immunity to surprise is extremely valuable. But WIS isn't a terrible choice either.

[Tanarii]

I'd take the Alert feat over a WIS boost - immunity to surprise is extremely valuable. But WIS isn't a terrible choice either.
With Passive Perception a minimum of 24 (Wis 18 + Observant + 5 proficiency at level 14), he's not going to be that easily surprised.

[djreynolds]

I might grab GWM first at 4th level or 6th.
Precision can help erase that -5 modifier for +10 damage.

Sentinel great, but if you are the guy getting smacked around... it may not help as much.

Magic initiate.... Just take a peak. You have a concentration check wizards would die for, and you're not using it. Throw up a spell once a day.

Heroism is an automatic pass on fear saves.

Have fun. I like your build, enjoy it. Next post should be how you single handily saved the realm.

[Estoma]

I'm playing the "tanky" Fighter.I'll be doing the frontline along with the party Rogue, but I'll be taking Polearm and etc. We're at lvl 2, and at 3 I'll take Battle Master achetype. We will be playing campaigns like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Curse of Strahd and homebrew with the same characters.

We rolled for stats and I took V-human(Heavy Armor Master). My stats are as following, with racial and +1 STR from HAM:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12


I don't know if we're going all the way to lvl 20, but I'll have the following feats/ASI along the way: PAM at 4th lvl; Sentinel at 6th lvl; GWM OR Resilient (WIS) at 8th lvl, since people told me I'll be needing it to face the dragons from Hoard. I'll end up getting 20 STR at some point. The thing is, if I take PAM, Sentinel, GWM, 20 STR and Resilient (WIS) I'll still have 2 feats/ASI to use.

With Resilient (WIS) I'll have 17 WIS, and since an odd number doesn't give me anything, I thought about pumping it to 18, maybe with Observant.
I just don't see why in the hell I would have 18 WIS with a fighter. I have all the WIS skills, except for Animal Handling and Medicine, and I know WIS is good to have, but I don't have any other uses for it except skills and resisting conditions. If I take Observant I can do some other usefull stuff(mainly Perception checks, since we don't have any WIS based class in ou party) but it seems odd to me to have more WIS than CON with a frontliner.

Am I going too far by getting Resilient (WIS)? I already have a good WIS stat... And if it REALLY is that good to get Resilient (WIS) (them dragons and their fear :smallfurious:), should I really care that I have 17 WIS? Or getting another feat to even it out is too much, and I should focus on pumping my CON to 18 or getting Tough for extra tankiness?

It seems stupid, but I'm torn appart with the doubt... We're probably not playing all the way to 20th lvl, but I want to have everything planed if we do.

It’s always handy to have a decent wisdom modifier. Aside from dex, a wis save is very common for nasty spells. Don’t make the mistake I made and give your fighter low wisdom. One wizard NPC got very close to a total party kill by casting ‘dominate person’ on my fighter and telling her to down her friends. She failed it and killed three members before finally making a save. So, takeaway point: don’t underestimate wisdom :)