Core Tank? Cleric?

[Hiro Quester]

New game starting soon. Playing a campaign the DM has run a couple of times before.

To keep the game balanced (nobody being able to single-handedly defeat encounters that should be fun challenges for the whole party), he's putting in some rules: Core only. Starting with PHB only. Other books or prestige classes at DM discretion.

This will also be a low magic-item, limited buffing rules, e.g. A limit of something like one spell or potion /character level.

After talking to other party members about the roles they want to play, it looks like the role of frontline tank (focus on protecting the squishy party members) needs filling. (Others are looking at rogue skill monkey, necromancer, eleven ranger, bard, and one other role to be specified.)

I generally like playing characters with versatility, magic and melee, and with roles to play in and out of combat. Have recently played a snowflake wardancing bard/sublime chord face, and a Druid (summoner, BFC, melee).

Am I wrong in thinking that playing a dwarven cleric might be a good option here for a frontline tank/combat medic?

Full disclosure: This seems like it could work. But I have never played a tank or a cleric.

It would not quite have the hit points for soaking up damage, but can probably be effective at defending, while using spells for BFC, protection, and preventing/curing damage. The cleric doesn't have to get to the tank, because the tank can fight/cast defensively and cure himself. (We'd also have a bard as backup healer with a wand of CLW, if the tank/ healer went down.)

Plus there's spells like Divine Power, righteous might, etc.

Plus cleric seems to have lots of options for out of combat situations.

Has anyone tried this? Is it an effective way to be a frontline tank/protector?

In this role, would a one-level dip in a more martial class be a good idea, for feats, skill points, faster movement, or anything like that?

Could a particular domain (core only) imporove my ability to play this role?

I'm wondering if an investment in a reach/ tripping weapon might help (do any deities have such a weapon as preferred weapon? or being a gnome instead of dwarf, using gnome hook hammer to trip?).

Edit: does cleric have any access to spells or abilities that amount to drawing Aggro to make enemies atack him rather than his allies?

[Troacctid]

Cleric and Druid are the strongest tank classes in core. I would say Druid is a little stronger in the role, but they're not too far off.

What I would do for the Cleric is not just wade into the fray yourself, but also make use of Summon Monster and Animate Dead to generate extra meat shields. They'll soak up a ton of extra damage and help you control a larger area of the battlefield. Probably prestige into Thaumaturgist too.


In this role, would a one-level dip in a more martial class be a good idea, for feats, skill points, faster movement, or anything like that?
I don't think so. You pretty much have everything you need without multiclassing. You could dip Fighter 2 if you want some bonus feats to support, like, a Combat Reflexes plan or something, but I don't think it's necessary.


Could a particular domain (core only) imporove my ability to play this role?
War Domain can give you Weapon Focus. Strength Domain has Enlarge Person.


I'm wondering if an investment in a reach/ tripping weapon might help (do any deities have such a weapon as preferred weapon? or being a gnome instead of dwarf, using gnome hook hammer to trip?).
There are two core deities that have a tripping weapon as their favored weapon: Hextor (flail) and Nerull (scythe). Of those two, only Hextor has War as a domain. So if this is your plan, you are probably priced into Hextor.


Edit: does cleric have any access to spells or abilities that amount to drawing Aggro to make enemies atack him rather than his allies?
Shield Other is probably the most aggro-pullingest spell in the Player's Handbook. Outside of that, you need something like Suggestion. Clerics don't get Suggestion, but as long as you're planning on making the enemy fail a Wisdom save anyway, I suppose you might as well use something like Hold Person and just skip straight from "You can't attack anyone but me!" to "Screw it, you just can't attack at all."

[Hiro Quester]

Cleric and Druid are the strongest tank classes in core. I would say Druid is a little stronger in the role, but they're not too far off.


This is all good advice. Thanks.

I get that Druid would fill the role better. Just the addition of Animal Companion alone covers that. But spontaneous summoning also brings tanking.

I played a Druid in our last campaign. I want to change it up.

[KillingAScarab]

War Domain can give you Weapon Focus. Strength Domain has Enlarge Person.

There are two core deities that have a tripping weapon as their favored weapon: Hextor (flail) and Nerull (scythe). Of those two, only Hextor has War as a domain. So if this is your plan, you are probably priced into Hextor.

...but as long as you're planning on making the enemy fail a Wisdom save anyway, I suppose you might as well use something like Hold Person and just skip straight from "You can't attack anyone but me!" to "Screw it, you just can't attack at all."If you're going for Hextor, the law domain grants hold monster while the destruction domain has the smite ability once per day. The static +4 to hit comes without raising charisma like a paladin's smite evil, which you could get if Unearthed Arcana variants were allowed (though, that should probably be limited to clerics who could channel positive energy).

You may also be interested in this writeup of Hextor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451475-My-pantheon-s-take-on-Hextor) from the homebrew section.

[malloc]

Fighter is arguably the best tank, being able to actually prevent enemies from reaching teammates with a variety of trip builds or opportunity attack builds that halt motion (combined with reach weapons).

Really it depends on what you want to define "tank" as. Most D&D groups don't use a classic tank because the best defense is murdering everyone before they get to murder you.

Cleric is a solid choice, being a tier 1 class (and tier 1 without needing to expand outside of core). It gives self-heals and buffs, which are nice. It's obviously stronger than fighter. But fighter has the ability to draw aggro and prevent damage in ways that would typically be considered "tanking".

Other than that, commoner 1 with the flaw "delicious" from a dragon mag.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

I regularly build tanky clerics, basically all you really need to succeed is high Constitution and wisdom, and wear heavy armor. The toughness feat always helps. Focus on spells that either boost defense or how much damage you can take. Or you can do the zombie master meat shield route.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I regularly build tanky clerics, basically all you really need to succeed is high Constitution and wisdom, and wear heavy armor. The toughness feat always helps. Focus on spells that either boost defense or how much damage you can take. Or you can do the zombie master meat shield route.

Heavy armor is only helpful at low levels. At higher levels you get more AC (and touch AC) from a Monk's Belt + spells.
And if you're going for Toughness at least take Improved Toughness. Toughness is trash. Though you shouldn't need either, just cast one of the spells that give you temporary hp instead.

[Eldariel]

Fighter is arguably the best tank, being able to actually prevent enemies from reaching teammates with a variety of trip builds or opportunity attack builds that halt motion (combined with reach weapons).

Really it depends on what you want to define "tank" as. Most D&D groups don't use a classic tank because the best defense is murdering everyone before they get to murder you.

Eh, in Core, Cleric is just as good at that as a Fighter and has spells to self-enhance themself starting from Enlarge Person on level 1. Fighter isn't particularly hood at this, it's just one of the few things a Fighter can do in the first place. All the AoO feat chains are non Core so Fighter benefits are minor.

All you can get for a tripper setup in Core is Improved Trip, EWP: Spiked Chain and Combat Reflexes. 4 feats so a level 6 Human Cleric has them all and is on the fast track towards Quicken Spell for Quickened Divine Favor on level 9 (or Spell Focus: Conjuration on 6 to enter Thaumaturgist leaving Quicken Spell for 12).


At OP: I wouldn't bother with War domain in Core. None of the deities offer a lucrative weapon and it restricts your choices anyways (unless DM allows a Cleric of Ideal to gain War domain). War has relatively poor spells and Weapon Focus isn't all that. EWP: Spiked Chain is my preference. Strength Domain is nice though.

The best core domains are still probably Trickery, Travel, Luck, Strength. All of those are quite nice in terms of spells and powers (Travel shines in terms of Power and Spells, Trickery in Spells, Luck in Power and higher level Spells, Strength has decent goodies on low levels). Magic domain is another good one, but then you ought to make use of the arcane spell completion items. Wand of Enlarge Person is quite nice for instance.

Don't worry about HP. D10 and D8 are only +1 Con away. Practically speaking you won't notice the difference. Down the line spells more than make up for it (Righteous Might gives that HP and then some, Divine Power gives the temporary HP, Shield Other allows splitting the load with a minion/companion).

And yeah, do enter Thaumaturgist. Contingent Summons is just great, free summons to tank and do stuff. It costs you precious little too. One feat and some numbers you get back with spells anyways.

Also consider neutral alignment channeling negative energy since Animate Dead is a great way to outsource damage with Shield Other and to put some warm (cold) bodies on the field to draw aggro and tank. Or to get flying mounts or whatever. Minions are great and if you already have a necromancer, you can cooperate with your Desecrates, the healing of your undead, etc. One can get frontliners, the other support/utility or so. Try to Command Undead a Nightshade down the line or have someone Shapechange into one! Zombie Hydras are still the best but Giants (Ettins in particular), Outsiders, etc. also worl great and big zombies with wings are the best taxis, if clumsy.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Well that depends on a couple things, does DM go against the normal thinking of Wis to AC? How high can you get your wisdom? In a less magic game I don't know if he'll be able to get better than +8(AC)/+1(Dex), from non magical fullplate, through wisdom mod +1 and Dex mod from an item he may never find in a low magic campaign, since it is a medium wonderous item. Also dwarves have little to no problems with heavy armor, since they don't get any speed reductions.

And I've been playing pathfinder so if forgot how weak toughness is in D&D, improved toughness sadly isn't in PHB, though if your DM allows you to take feats from monster manual you can get it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well that depends on a couple things, does DM go against the normal thinking of Wis to AC? How high can you get your wisdom? In a less magic game I don't know if he'll be able to get better than +8(AC)/+1(Dex), from non magical fullplate, through wisdom mod +1 and Dex mod from an item he may never find in a low magic campaign, since it is a medium wonderous item. Also dwarves have little to no problems with heavy armor, since they don't get any speed reductions.

And I've been playing pathfinder so if forgot how weak toughness is in D&D, improved toughness sadly isn't in PHB, though if your DM allows you to take feats from monster manual you can get it.
You can still use Mage Armor and the like with a Monk's Belt. So you're already caught up with a full plate at 16 Wis.
And that's not counting that the belt also grants touch AC. Touch AC is important against lots of things and usually hard or expensive to get, so this is a very valuable benefit.

A Monk's Belt costs as much as full plate + shield at +2/+3 (13,000gp). Or more likely +2/+2 or even +2/+1 if you factor in special materials.
That's relatively high level if you compare only against Wis-bonus, but if you factor in that it stacks with spells that grant armor and shield AC you're getting there (and exceed it) a lot sooner.
So by the time you can afford a Monk's Belt you end up with more AC wearing that than if you used full plate + shield.

Another benefit is that it scales automatically as you level. You're a cleric, so you put your level-up points into Wis. You buy a +Wis item. You get a +Wis tome at higher levels.
Armor and a shield continually need upgrades. The belt is the buy-and-forget option.

The question of finding one shouldn't really come up. If you can find magic armor as you level (or get it enchanted yourself) you should be able to buy a Monk's Belt.

[Gnaeus]

You can still use Mage Armor and the like with a Monk's Belt. So you're already caught up with a full plate at 16 Wis.
And that's not counting that the belt also grants touch AC. Touch AC is important against lots of things and usually hard or expensive to get, so this is a very valuable benefit.

A Monk's Belt costs as much as full plate + shield at +2/+3 (13,000gp). Or more likely +2/+2 or even +2/+1 if you factor in special materials.
That's relatively high level if you compare only against Wis-bonus, but if you factor in that it stacks with spells that grant armor and shield AC you're getting there (and exceed it) a lot sooner.
So by the time you can afford a Monk's Belt you end up with more AC wearing that than if you used full plate + shield.

Another benefit is that it scales automatically as you level. You're a cleric, so you put your level-up points into Wis. You buy a +Wis item. You get a +Wis tome at higher levels.
Armor and a shield continually need upgrades. The belt is the buy-and-forget option.

The question of finding one shouldn't really come up. If you can find magic armor as you level (or get it enchanted yourself) you should be able to buy a Monk's Belt.

OP says it will be a low magic item game with limits on buffing. So...
1. No guarantee he will be able to get one. He can probably get the full plate and shield.
2. Which core cleric spell gives a Shield bonus?
3. No guarantee he will be able to get a wand of Mage armor for the wizard either.
4. If he does he will be taking up buff slots with it. If it’s one buff/level that may be irrelevant, if they tweak that so a level 10 cleric doesn’t get 10 buffs you may be choosing between Mage armor and a normal cleric buff

[KillingAScarab]

New game starting soon. Playing a campaign the DM has run a couple of times before.

To keep the game balanced (nobody being able to single-handedly defeat encounters that should be fun challenges for the whole party), he's putting in some rules: Core only. Starting with PHB only. Other books or prestige classes at DM discretion.

This will also be a low magic-item, limited buffing rules, e.g. A limit of something like one spell or potion /character level.Just a thought, but what level will you be starting at? If 1st level, and you do end up choosing Hextor or otherwise have the law domain as a choice, that +1 to caster level of aligned spells would give you an extra minute per casting of protection from chaos. Strength domain was mentioned earlier, and there are a number of core deities with intersections between that and an alignment domain.


Edit: does cleric have any access to spells or abilities that amount to drawing Aggro to make enemies atack him rather than his allies?You could cast sanctuary on an ally who is going to summon or heal.

[King of Nowhere]

New game starting soon. Playing a campaign the DM has run a couple of times before.

To keep the game balanced (nobody being able to single-handedly defeat encounters that should be fun challenges for the whole party), he's putting in some rules: Core only. Starting with PHB only. Other books or prestige classes at DM discretion.

This will also be a low magic-item, limited buffing rules, e.g. A limit of something like one spell or potion /character level.


This looks like a horrible thing to do for balance.
core-only does not help with tier imbalance. there are a few non-core tricks that are totally oscene (like having hundreds of contingencies or completely eschewing XP costs) but aside from those, that a lot of DM wouldn't allow anyway, non-core stuff is most beneficial for the lower tier classes. If you restrict to core, the wizard will still be able to solve everything, and the mundanes will contribute even less.
Although it says other stuff at DM discretion, which is the right way to go and genrally means "everything that is not a bizzarre combo".

low-magic items hurts the mundane more than the casters. casters can cast at almost full power without items, can use buffs to compensate for lack of items, and can craft their own items. mundane need a lot of stuff to fight well. In a low magic world the wizard can dominate the fighter or trap him in a forcecage just as easily, at worse he'll lose a bit of DC on the saving throw for not having +6 headband of intellect. In high magic, the fighter has items that protect him from mental effects, boosts to saving throws, and some item to teleport outside of the forcecage. A disintegrate will always deal 2d6 per level, but a +5 sword makes a lot of difference. Really, I've seen that the gulf between mundanes and casters is significantly reduced if you give everyone well above their wbl, and then you pit them against stronger opponents to compensate.

As for limitatiion on buffs, it has very limited use, unless the limit is hard. one buff per level is already a lot, and good enough for most situation. If one has more than that, just use an enemy that can dispel.

[Troacctid]

A Monk's Belt costs as much as full plate + shield at +2/+3 (13,000gp). Or more likely +2/+2 or even +2/+1 if you factor in special materials.
Why would a Cleric not just cast Magic Vestment?

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks everyone.

I agree that this is not the best way to balance things. I'd rather open ToB for martial types so they can have nice things, too. But this is not my game, and the DM and other party members are friends who I enjoy playing with. So I'll accept the limitations and try to have fun within them.

So, I'm now thinking about playing a human chaotic good cleric of Kord, with strength and luck domains. Human for bonus feat and skill points. Maybe a one level fighter dip for bonus feat and weapon proficiencies.

He believes that Kord rewards those who train and prepare well, but then embrace the chaos of melee, depending on their strength and courage and luck to defeat enemies. He believes that preventing damage is better than healing it.

So he protects his allies by using protection spells, BFC spells, summoned monsters, and standing in between his friends and the bad guys, enlarged, with a tripping weapon (and improved trip feat).

I considered Hextor for war domain and flail proficiency (would not need fighter level). The alt description of Hextor as willing to do whatever is necessary for the greater good could work. But Hextor's domains are just not as appealing.

Strength domain gives enlarge person, and one-time bonus to strength for winning a trip attempt or grapple check. Luck gives 1/day reroll.

Something like human fighter1/cleric 19 (unless other prestige classes become an option; I'd have to clear that with DM, but if Radiant Servant of Pelor was a possibility I might switch deities for that).

Use a heavy flail for tripping and pummeling enemies. Enlarge person gives 10ft reach for AOO trips, even.

For feats I'm considering starting with:
Human: combat expertise
Fighter: improved trip
1: skill focus: concentration or combat casting (prob the former, for more general use).
3: extend spell

Does this sound viable?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why would a Cleric not just cast Magic Vestment?

Magic Vestment stacks with a Monk's Belt too.
It was just the closest cost equivalent to approximate when buying the belt is "worth it". Though that's disregarding the value of touch AC.
More realistically you'd compare it to a Ring of Protection or similar item, which are more expensive.

Point is the belt stacks with everything except actual physical armor (which doesn't stack with spells like Mage Armor/Luminous Armor). You lose out on shield AC unless you invest in a wand or other item, but i'd say getting your wis to AC and touch AC is worth that.
Especially in a core-only game where you can't just pay to make your armor/shield apply to touch AC.

The only drawback is the lack of things to put armor enhancements like Soulfire on. Since you have to put everything you want on the arms slot you have to be more picky than if you had armor + shield (+ dastana/chahair-ana potentially).

[Endarire]

If you had access to all of core, a Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) may be worthwhile.

In a (nearly) core-only environment, I found Wizards, Clerics, and Druids, if properly built and played, to be super useful. They still were somewhat late bloomers compared to Barbarians, Fighters, etc. who had the feats, HP, and fewer stat priorities regarding physical fighting, but the casters offered versatility when we needed to heal, buff, summon, crowd control, blast, etc.

A favorite tactic for our group in such environments was to be a Cleric or Rogue1/whatever, take Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative, and use a longspear. (Sometimes also use armor spikes, gauntlets, etc.) We got a lot of off-turn pokes which made things much easier for us.

My favorite core deities for Clerics were Kord (Luck, Good, Strength) and Pelor (Good, Strength, Sun) with Heironeous (Good, Law, War) being secondary. Remember, a full Cleric can still craft Holy weapons, wondrous items, etc. and be useful that way.

[vasilidor]

with a strict core game, the chances of the primary casters overpowering the rest of the party skyrockets with every level gained. there are a lot of encounters that become trivial with either the use of color spray or sleep. spells like fireball or magic missile are generally waste of spell slots. for clerics cause fear, bless, and command and druids have entangle as first level spells. AOE explosion spells are really only useful for swarms or large groups of peons.

[Eldariel]

Thanks everyone.

I agree that this is not the best way to balance things. I'd rather open ToB for martial types so they can have nice things, too. But this is not my game, and the DM and other party members are friends who I enjoy playing with. So I'll accept the limitations and try to have fun within them.

So, I'm now thinking about playing a human chaotic good cleric of Kord, with strength and luck domains. Human for bonus feat and skill points. Maybe a one level fighter dip for bonus feat and weapon proficiencies.

He believes that Kord rewards those who train and prepare well, but then embrace the chaos of melee, depending on their strength and courage and luck to defeat enemies. He believes that preventing damage is better than healing it.

So he protects his allies by using protection spells, BFC spells, summoned monsters, and standing in between his friends and the bad guys, enlarged, with a tripping weapon (and improved trip feat).

I considered Hextor for war domain and flail proficiency (would not need fighter level). The alt description of Hextor as willing to do whatever is necessary for the greater good could work. But Hextor's domains are just not as appealing.

Strength domain gives enlarge person, and one-time bonus to strength for winning a trip attempt or grapple check. Luck gives 1/day reroll.

Something like human fighter1/cleric 19 (unless other prestige classes become an option; I'd have to clear that with DM, but if Radiant Servant of Pelor was a possibility I might switch deities for that).

Use a heavy flail for tripping and pummeling enemies. Enlarge person gives 10ft reach for AOO trips, even.

Fighter really isn't worth it. You get martial weapon proficiencies, but you want reach so you'd want Guisarme or EWP: Spiked Chain anyways. 20' reach is much more brutal than 10' reach and enables you to become a nigh' impassable wall. Which you can get with a feat; a feat is far smaller a cost than a level. That's essentially two feats for a level. Now that level means your buff spells will always be one caster level and one character level behind (very important on a Cleric with Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, etc.). More important is of course the delayed access to the various spells; getting Righteous Might on 10th instead of 9th is a significant handicap.


For feats I'm considering starting with:
Human: combat expertise
Fighter: improved trip
1: skill focus: concentration or combat casting (prob the former, for more general use).
3: extend spell

Does this sound viable?

Skill Focus: Concentration and Combat Casting are both 100% unnecessary; you'll cross the threshold to autosuccess really fast anyways and most of the time you can 5' step away when you fight and you're a reach fighter so you don't want to be adjacent to enemies anyways. Extend Spell really kicks in on level 7+, so you don't really need it yet either. I'd pick it later if at all. And if you go for AoOs, you definitely want Combat Reflexes with some Dex to back it up. Thus, I recommend the following:

1. Combat Expertise
Human. Improved Trip
3. EWP: Spiked Chain
(6. Combat Reflexes)

9 would then be Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration (if you want to enter Thaumaturgist; it's really a good class and I do recommend you to consider it as it has little downsides and a lot of upsides - at that point you're fighting with Divine Power anyways so it's not like you care about the basic BAB advancement).

[Hiro Quester]

That makes a lot of sense, Eladriel. Thanks!!

[King of Nowhere]

1. Combat Expertise
Human. Improved Trip
3. EWP: Spiked Chain
(6. Combat Reflexes)

9 would then be Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration (if you want to enter Thaumaturgist; it's really a good class and I do recommend you to consider it as it has little downsides and a lot of upsides - at that point you're fighting with Divine Power anyways so it's not like you care about the basic BAB advancement).

Problem I see with this is that your tripping is unreliable. You only have a +4, +STR, and you can't have much str since you are maxing your wis and investing in dex. So your trip attempt will fail a lot of times, especially if you use it against anything bigger than medium size, and if you fail to trip your opponent will react to trip you (if you trip with a weapon, it's basically a disarm attempt). You need some buff to your tripping. Getting enlarge person from the party wizard is the easiest fix, but still you'll need some more str to be safe.

[Eldariel]

Problem I see with this is that your tripping is unreliable. You only have a +4, +STR, and you can't have much str since you are maxing your wis and investing in dex. So your trip attempt will fail a lot of times, especially if you use it against anything bigger than medium size, and if you fail to trip your opponent will react to trip you (if you trip with a weapon, it's basically a disarm attempt). You need some buff to your tripping. Getting enlarge person from the party wizard is the easiest fix, but still you'll need some more str to be safe.

Eh, Cleric has Righteous Might and Divine Power as really big Strength-buffs you'll want anyways. Before then Enlarge Person from Strength domain/Wand and Bull's Strength. Down the line you could get Polymorph Any Object from Trickery-domain or Miracle for Polymorph but that's probably too late to come up. And the +4 from Improved Trip is pretty big; if you get like a 14-16 Str, you're not gonna be far behind someone investing only in Strength. And the game is full of things you can trip so use it there. For the ones you can't reliably? Just hit them in the face. You're still a Cleric, you hurt like a truck. You can also cast spells that make your enemies fall down.

But yeah, a 16 Str Cleric with Improved Trip is favoured against a 22 Str Raging Human Barbarian in a level 1 trip attempt. That's how good a feat it is. And you can always just take move action to draw another Chain if you drop yours. And anything less extreme, you can trip with impunity even before you use Enlarge Person or Strength-domain power (you can prepare Enlarge Person in both, 1st and 2nd level Domain slots to extend your access). Enlarged Cleric is looking at +12 Trip, which is just nasty. Both of which you have access to. Wizard is the only class that can easily keep up with a Cleric's trippery - even Barbarian needs buffs from a third party to match up.

[Hiro Quester]

That's about what I was thinking, with improved trip, enlarge person, bull's strength, and a reach weapon like guisarme or spiked chain, I'll have a good chance of winning a trip attack.

And I also have the strength domain power, and 1/ day reroll from luck domain, to reinforce that.

However I'm looking at War domain again. Ordained Champion (CC) might be a possibility for a PrC later on. It has some appeal. Trading a couple of levels of cleric casting for martial abilities seems like it might be worth it. (The rest of the party won't be overly high-optimization.

So I'm looking at Hextor again. A lawful neutral cleric of Hextor would qualify. If only Hextor's domains were better. Perhaps I could convince DM to adapt it for a different (non-evil) god of war...

Am I crazy for considering that?

Perhaps worshipping Pelor, and aiming towards Radiant Servant would be a better idea. No lost caster levels. it doesn't quite have the same appeal, though, roleplaying wise.

[Troacctid]

Ordained Champion is amazing but how are you using it in a core-only build?

Also Hextor's domains are fine. Destruction and Law are perfectly serviceable.

[Hiro Quester]

We start in core only. Other spells, items and PrCs approved on a case-by-case basis.

On paper I guess Hextor looks okay. But you pretty much have to be evil to devote yourself to Destruction, Domination or evil domains.

Destruction is okay. The smite ability, and disintegrate are nice.

If we go by CD then the Domination domain opens up, which adds some nice enchantment spells as Spell focus: enchantment.

But Law doesn't seem to offer that much a Cleric doesn't already have. + 1 CL is nice. But only for Law spells seems meh.

I've already been thinking about the character enough that I want to play it as someplace between true neutral to chaotic good.

So if OC is in theory possible, I'd be looking for a good god of war, who isnt Heironeous.

Or perhaps (outside of core, but perhaps would be allowed) Xan Yae, God of shadows and stealth; with war, trickery, knowledge and celerity domains. Trickery and celerity expand the spell list in useful ways. But that doesn't seem to fit well with the Tank role.

Something like a good version of Grummsh, or Kord if he liked War instead of fairground athletic contests. A chaotic good god of war and strength.

Can one be torn between two deities? Something like a human slave to an orc clan, raised by human parents to worship Kord, but trained by Orc masters to fight as a gladiator/slave, and so brainwashed into venerating Grummsh. Rescued by Kord worshippers at war with his Orc masters.

So he worships Kord, but thinks he should be a god of war, rather than friendly sports contests. And his prayers (in the form of weapons drills) are secretly also prayers to War, due to Grummsh's influence.

So worships the ideals of war, strength, luck, chaos (as liberation and freedom, rather than domination and conquest) and good (war being the best means of stopping those who are committed to evil domination and conquest).

That might fly, and be fun to play, and fit with the Tank role. And it might be adaptable into a version of Ordained Champion.

There isn't already a Greyhawk deity that fits that profile, is there?

[Eldariel]

Your domains don't really define your role rather than expanding it. If you're adapting Ordained Champion, Xan Yae would be amazing. All the spells can be used to boost the team (Haste for everyone, Invis for anyone you wanna protect or for scouting, etc.) and Ordained Champion is, if not quite as strong as straight Cleric, still quite awesome.

Your buffs and support ability would suffer but you'd get a bit more personal power as a compensation. And almost full BAB without Divine Power (though without magic items, you might just want to cast it for the +6 Str and Temporary HP anyways), particularly if you follow up with Knight of the Raven, Fist of Raziel, or some other Full BAB, 9/10 casting PRC.

Certainly a valid option and definitely would add to team power. Though losing those caster levels does suck. Just plain Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Contemplative or such could be great too though. And any deity or ideal goes.

[KillingAScarab]

So worships the ideals of war, strength, luck, chaos (as liberation and freedom, rather than domination and conquest) and good (war being the best means of stopping those who are committed to evil domination and conquest).

That might fly, and be fun to play, and fit with the Tank role. And it might be adaptable into a version of Ordained Champion.

There isn't already a Greyhawk deity that fits that profile, is there?You would want to clear it with your DM, but clerics can worship ideals rather than deities. That is a suggestion straight out of the PHB. It also states that the restrictions on taking alignment domains still apply even if you don't worship a deity; if you aren't good you can't have the good domain, and so on.

[Troacctid]

If you were to assume the full range of non-core sources, Hextor offers the Destruction, Domination, Evil, Law, Pride, Tyranny, War, Wrath, and Zeal domains. War is a given, of course, but Pride is also great (one of the best domain abilities of any domain), Domination is great (some really strong spells for Channel Spell), Tyranny works well with Domination, Destruction is decent, and Law is a strong candidate for replacing with a domain feat.

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g7eqfWiBG63Y6OulrIfD0Glo5ugoviAM5PUUGN60Hto/edit#gid=0) is a list of deity options.

[Endarire]

Labolas Enoreth (CG Faerunian Deity - Player's Guide to Faerun) provides the Time domain and is a rare deity to official do so. Faerun and Greyhawk already have a bunch of official overlap like with two versions of Lolth. Ask your GM.

Also, regarding destruction, is destroying that which harms the things and beings you love automatically [Evil]? For example, if cancer attacks your loved one, is destroying that [Evil]? My understanding is that it's a matter of perspective in D&D 3.x.

[Hiro Quester]

Labolas Enoreth (CG Faerunian Deity - Player's Guide to Faerun) provides the Time domain and is a rare deity to official do so. Faerun and Greyhawk already have a bunch of official overlap like with two versions of Lolth. Ask your GM.

Also, regarding destruction, is destroying that which harms the things and beings you love automatically [Evil]? For example, if cancer attacks your loved one, is destroying that [Evil]? My understanding is that it's a matter of perspective in D&D 3.x.

We are greyhawk only, unfortunately.

That is a good point about destruction. It, like war, can be applied for good purposes, rather than for its own sake.

[Hiro Quester]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g7eqfWiBG63Y6OulrIfD0Glo5ugoviAM5PUUGN60Hto/edit#gid=0) is a list of deity options.

Thanks Troactid. Unfortunately the link to the google doc is not public, so we can't access that link.

Another list of Greyhawk Deities that might achieve the same purpose is here (https://metzger.obsidianportal.com/wikis/greyhawk-deities-master-list).

[Hiro Quester]

Update: I think we have a winner.

The dwarven god Hanseath is CN, God of War, Carousing, and Alcohol. That's some fun roleplaying right there. A convivial, drunken, viking warrior priest.

His domains are Chaos, Strength, Travel, War. All excellent and useful domains. Strength for Enlarge person, War for weapon proficiency and weapon focus, and entry to Ordained Champion. Travel (extra domain from Ordained Champion) for freedom of movement and excellent mobility spells (longstrider, fly, Dimension door...)

Dwarf means one less feat, but fits very well with other aspects of the battle cleric role.

This might work, and be very fun.

Edit. Hanseath is discussed here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a), and in Races of Stone

Further edit: apologies for repeat posting.

[Troacctid]

Thanks Troactid. Unfortunately the link to the google doc is not public, so we can't access that link.

Another list of Greyhawk Deities that might achieve the same purpose is here (https://metzger.obsidianportal.com/wikis/greyhawk-deities-master-list).

Whoops, forgot to enable link sharing. Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g7eqfWiBG63Y6OulrIfD0Glo5ugoviAM5PUUGN60Hto/edit?usp=sharing).

[KillingAScarab]

Update: I think we have a winner.

The dwarven god Hanseath is CN, God of War, Carousing, and Alcohol. That's some fun roleplaying right there. A convivial, drunken, viking warrior priest.

His domains are Chaos, Strength, Travel, War. All excellent and useful domains. Strength for Enlarge person, War for weapon proficiency and weapon focus, and entry to Ordained Champion. Travel (extra domain from Ordained Champion) for freedom of movement and excellent mobility spells (longstrider, fly, Dimension door...)

Dwarf means one less feat, but fits very well with other aspects of the battle cleric role.

This might work, and be very fun.

Edit. Hanseath is discussed here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a), and in Races of Stone

Further edit: apologies for repeat posting.I am glad you found something you can work with. I do have to comment on one thing, though.
Known as the Bearded One for the thick hair that obscures most of his face,...Wow, that is a very generic description. I expect The Bearded One to be the dwarven deity of beards. It should be an entire portfolio. The clerics could be opposed to the forces of the Exfoliator or something.