traits (pathfinder)

[kaskavel]

I am a bit confused about traits. Is it default to allow PCs 2 of them and if not, with what can they be eschanged for? (2 for 1 feat does not seem good enough for the PC to me)

[Long_shanks]

I am a bit confused about traits. Is it default to allow PCs 2 of them and if not, with what can they be eschanged for? (2 for 1 feat does not seem good enough for the PC to me)

It's a DM call. In Advanced Player's Guide, they say that a DM can award two or more at character creation. But as it is a subset of rules, the Dm can just decide not to play with them.

Also, two traits for a feat tries to be balanced. Some traits gives +2 initiative (half of improved init), others +1 to a save (half of a save booster feat), others +1 to a skill and makes it a class skill (which can mean another +3 if it is not already a class skill, so better that skill focus). Also, there are other traits that are just plain better than a feat: look at Fate's favored, finding Haleen or magical lineage and tell me that those traits are not worth a feat in and of themselves.

[Drelua]

Yeah, typically it's 2 for free, and they're supposed to be half as good as a feat. The only restriction is that they have to be from different categories, ie combat, faith, magic, or social.

[kaskavel]

It's a DM call. In Advanced Player's Guide, they say that a DM can award two or more at character creation. But as it is a subset of rules, the Dm can just decide not to play with them.

Also, two traits for a feat tries to be balanced. Some traits gives +2 initiative (half of improved init), others +1 to a save (half of a save booster feat), others +1 to a skill and makes it a class skill (which can mean another +3 if it is not already a class skill, so better that skill focus). Also, there are other traits that are just plain better than a feat: look at Fate's favored, finding Haleen or magical lineage and tell me that those traits are not worth a feat in and of themselves.

Ty. But the game balance was created based of the players having or not having those 2 traits? And if not, how would you suggest exchanging them with lets say...hp or skill points (as an alternative choice to 2-1 feat)?

[Long_shanks]

Ty. But the game balance was created based of the players having or not having those 2 traits? And if not, how would you suggest exchanging them with lets say...hp or skill points (as an alternative choice to 2-1 feat)?

Do you think the equivalent of a feat would upset the balance of the game? I for one don't think so. Having them or not does not change a whole lot. They just help to flesh out a character (when you choose traits that are embodied by the character) or give them a little oomph (then again it's only the equivalent of a feat, so it absolutely doesn't break the game with of without it). As a DM, I'm always partial to give more goodies to my players; makes them happy and helps them to flesh out their character a bit more from the start.

As for the exchange you propose, I,m not sure what you are refering to. The favored class bonuses? If so, that would just be a plain nerf for the players, as a lot of them give the equivalent of a feat every 6 to 8 levels.

[Malimar]

Personally, when I DM Pathfinder, I don't give free Traits but I do allow up to two Drawbacks to buy up to two Traits. Nobody has so far taken me up on this offer.

[kaskavel]

Do you think the equivalent of a feat would upset the balance of the game? I for one don't think so. Having them or not does not change a whole lot. They just help to flesh out a character (when you choose traits that are embodied by the character) or give them a little oomph (then again it's only the equivalent of a feat, so it absolutely doesn't break the game with of without it). As a DM, I'm always partial to give more goodies to my players; makes them happy and helps them to flesh out their character a bit more from the start.

As for the exchange you propose, I,m not sure what you are refering to. The favored class bonuses? If so, that would just be a plain nerf for the players, as a lot of them give the equivalent of a feat every 6 to 8 levels.

Telling my players something like : "ok, if you want, pick up 1 trait by losing 3 favoured points. Or by losing 1/2 hp per level. That should keep game balanced"

[Ellrin]

I believe two traits are standard in PFS play, which would make that the "official" baseline, though it's largely an optional system. You really aren't going to make or break the game with any traits, even the very best ones, though if you're playing a game with at least as much fluff as crunch, I'd recommend you require your players' traits to make sense with their characters' backgrounds.


Or by losing 1/2 hp per level.

Hell, I'll take that deal if I can get Finding Haleen with it.

[Long_shanks]

Telling my players something like : "ok, if you want, pick up 1 trait by losing 3 favoured points. Or by losing 1/2 hp per level. That should keep game balanced"

You get in some weird dynamic with Finding Haleen with that method ;). You should just allow them, or not use them. It doesn't change anything on game balance; it's the equivalent of a bonus feat at level one, but a bonus feat that can't be used as a prerequisite for other feats.
So, use them, or not, but I would recommend against having your players choose between them and other bonuses.

[KillingAScarab]

Ty. But the game balance was created based of the players having or not having those 2 traits? And if not, how would you suggest exchanging them with lets say...hp or skill points (as an alternative choice to 2-1 feat)?Given that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook has no traits in it, and the game is based upon D&D 3.5, where traits were optional rules presented in Unearthed Arcana, I think it is safe to assume the game was not built with traits in mind. I suppose you could have a player who has only ever had traits and assumes they are standard, though.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm a fan of traits. I give players one regular trait and one campaign trait--and if I'm adapting or homebrewing I'll make custom campaign traits.

Doing it that way lets me subtly encourage players to pick suitable characters and through the campaign traits I can give characters hooks and reasons to adventure together.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Given that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook has no traits in it, and the game is based upon D&D 3.5, where traits were optional rules presented in Unearthed Arcana, I think it is safe to assume the game was not built with traits in mind. I suppose you could have a player who has only ever had traits and assumes they are standard, though.

Your first assertion is correct but the second is off base. PF Traits and 3.5 Traits are different. PF Traits are generally better without drawbacks (unless you employ Drawbacks) while 3.5 Traits are kinda pathetic and also have unnecessary drawbacks. But overall, Traits will not unbalance things. The bonuses are just too small to make that much of a difference. At worst a min-maxer will max just a bit more than before but at best you have characters with thematic additions or linchpinning a skill their class doesn't have as a class skill.

[grarrrg]

Also, two traits for a feat tries to be balanced. Some traits gives +2 initiative (half of improved init), others +1 to a save (half of a save booster feat), others +1 to a skill and makes it a class skill (which can mean another +3 if it is not already a class skill, so better that skill focus).

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, there is the "Additional Traits" feat, which is a Feat that gets you 2 Traits. So there is semi-precedent for going the other way.


finding Haleen

Finding Haleen is a Campaign trait. Campaign traits should not necessarily be allowed for every game, as there is usually 'fluff baggage' associated with them.

[Long_shanks]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, there is the "Additional Traits" feat, which is a Feat that gets you 2 Traits. So there is semi-precedent for going the other way.



Finding Haleen is a Campaign trait. Campaign traits should not necessarily be allowed for every game, as there is usually 'fluff baggage' associated with them.

Yeah I brought it up at the begining, which was part of my reasoning as to why two traits are worth basically a feat. And yeah, I don't typically use campaing traits either (unless a player does something awesome with it in his background). I brought it up just to show that "game balance" is somewhat of a fuzzy concept (I probably should have done a better job of expressing that idea, sorry about that).

[KillianHawkeye]

Traits are an optional system, so it depends on the game or the DM whether or not traits are in play. That being said, the default if you allow traits is to give starting characters two of them.

As far as trading traits for feats or for some other kind of bonus or whatever, I don't think the rules intended for that sort of behavior. While there is some evidence that two traits should be (on average) worth the same as one feat, that doesn't necessarily mean that traits should be freely exchangeable for feats. We all know that the worth of a feat has a wide range of value, and that's even before considering that many feats are balanced with the prerequisite of having another feat.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

I'd just give everyone two. They need to be different categories. We've always done this at our table and it doesn't break anything. It's just more fun character customization. Don't allow campaign traits outside of the appropriate campaign.

Alternatively if you are really against allowing two for free just allow the 1st part feat "Extra Traits" which gives two traits. There are some cool build enabling things that can be accessed through traits so it's a shame to lock them off completely.

[Florian]

I am a bit confused about traits. Is it default to allow PCs 2 of them and if not, with what can they be eschanged for? (2 for 1 feat does not seem good enough for the PC to me)

Read the entry and explanation chapter in the APG and UCa what traits are actually for.

Traits are purely optional and core default is that you don't use them. APG suggests that you can use up to two, one from each category and the various adventure paths have you pick one from the campaign-specific list.

[Krazzman]

I allow 2 Traits +1 Campaign Trait as well as 1 Drawback(optional) which brings them to 4 traits.

Even when you would go without any traits for free I would still advise you to give Campaign Traits... when going for a new homebrew campaign you can build really good hooks with it. When you have a new player later on you can even give him a forced Trait which hooks him into the party.

I really like traits as hooks or as a way to get certain skills as class skill.

[molten_dragon]

I am a bit confused about traits. Is it default to allow PCs 2 of them and if not, with what can they be eschanged for? (2 for 1 feat does not seem good enough for the PC to me)

Traits were not included in the Pathfinder core rulebook, but Pathfinder Society uses traits, as do all of the adventure paths, so I think it's safe to say they're considered default at this point.

Frankly, they're minor enough bonuses (barring a couple of broken options that should probably be banned) that they aren't going to have a significant effect on game balance. I'd suggest either allowing them or banning them, but it's not worth the effort of trying to come up with some tradeoff.

[Psyren]

It's optional but they really don't break anything. We use them.

If you're that wary about including them, how about allowing 1 for free and then the Extra Traits feat if people want more?

Note 1: Traits ARE default in PFS, so if you have players coming in from that, they may indeed expect them.
Note 2: Even the Core Campaign version of PFS uses traits (from the web enhancement.) So even in a "core only" game, your players may expect them.