Gazelle Punch question

[SangoProduction]

Another SoM question. Counter Punch is basically spending a ready action to attack.


Gazelle Punch
Whenever you ready a counter punch, you treat your reach as though it was 5 ft. further for the purposes of being able to make a counter punch. If the triggering action was taken by a creature that is outside of your normal reach, you may move to a square that places the creature within your reach (this movement does provoke attacks of opportunity) before making the attack. At +10 base attack bonus, your effective reach increases by an additional 5 ft. (up to your speed).

I am actually...confused as to the intent of what this is. I think it's supposed to mean you've got an area of 5 feat outside of your reach, in which you can trigger counter punch, and move up to, as part of the action (based on the parenthetical part at the end). But, it would seem as though the second sentence places no such restrictions, and just says if they are outside of your normal reach, you may move so they are in it.


What do you guys make of it?

[Necroticplague]

It seems to be written under the presumption that Readied Actions are like AoOs, and can only trigger within your Reach, so it’s probably supposed to function similar to how Combat Patrol does. Unfortunately, this isn’t true, so it seems to basically be an almost-free out of turn movement.

Relatedely, while it specifies you need to use a light melee weapon, Boxing seems to hilariously fail to state you need to actually use it in melee. Though Boxing by throwing a dagger for large area control seems like a perfectly valid use of the Sphere.

[Talverin]

Wow. That feels like a pretty intense oversight.

However, like Combat Patrol, the range of this ability is limited by your actual movement speed. Unlike Combat Patrol, it is only a single attack instead of several. So think of it as a weaker version of Combat Patrol without having to invest in the Guardian tree, and capable of taking 'Attacks of Opportunity' against targets that otherwise would not provoke them. If you have a 30ft move, and your target is 35ft away, Gazelle Punch would let you increase your attack range by that extra bit and get the counterpunch trigger.

[SwordChucks]

Though Boxing by throwing a dagger for large area control seems like a perfectly valid use of the Sphere.

The Boxing sphere takes "throwing a punch" very literally.

[Zexionthefirst]

It seems to be written under the presumption that Readied Actions are like AoOs, and can only trigger within your Reach, so it’s probably supposed to function similar to how Combat Patrol does. Unfortunately, this isn’t true, so it seems to basically be an almost-free out of turn movement.

So, before I say anything I need to ask: does Spheres of Might change how Readied Actions work compared to Pathfinder? I tried to look it up but I couldn't find any specific rules related to readied actions in SoM, and from what I understand it still uses Pathfinder as a base?

[stack]

You may have better luck posting in the SoM general thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520046-Drop-Dead-Studios-Spheres-of-Might-Open-Playtest) rather than starting a separate thread for every question. Easier for the writers to track.

Admittedly, the thread needs to lose the 'playtest' from its name.

[SangoProduction]

So, before I say anything I need to ask: does Spheres of Might change how Readied Actions work compared to Pathfinder? I tried to look it up but I couldn't find any specific rules related to readied actions in SoM, and from what I understand it still uses Pathfinder as a base?

Yes, same basic rules, though Counter Punch enables a few extra triggers for the same readied action.

[Zexionthefirst]

Aright. Thank you for your answer. :smallsmile:


It seems to be written under the presumption that Readied Actions are like AoOs, and can only trigger within your Reach, so it’s probably supposed to function similar to how Combat Patrol does. Unfortunately, this isn’t true, so it seems to basically be an almost-free out of turn movement.


The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

You can ready (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Ready) a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

Emphasis mine. This means you can spend a standard action, and then get a readied action- that readied action being only a standard action, a move action, a swift action (as opposed to an immediate action), or a free action. This means you can not move and attack as part of your readied action.

So, ya. A readied action to melee attack would be like an AoO. It would be limited to your reach.

All of that being said, I realize I may have misinterpreted the point your were trying to make. So, if your point wasn't that "Readied actions don't have to be in your reach" then please feel free to disregard.

[SangoProduction]

Aright. Thank you for your answer. :smallsmile:

Emphasis mine. This means you can spend a standard action, and then get a readied action- that readied action being only a standard action, a move action, a swift action (as opposed to an immediate action), or a free action. This means you can not move and attack as part of your readied action.

So, ya. A readied action to melee attack would be like an AoO. It would be limited to your reach.

All of that being said, I realize I may have misinterpreted the point your were trying to make. So, if your point wasn't that "Readied actions don't have to be in your reach" then please feel free to disregard.

Mmm..... Slight problem. The type of action you can ready is not indicative of what can be done with the action. You can ready a standard action to move if someone moves towards you, is there a reason to doing that instead of move action? Not really, but you can. Also, Gazelle Punch specifically says,


If the triggering action was taken by a creature that is outside of your normal reach, you may move to a square that places the creature within your reach (this movement does provoke attacks of opportunity) before making the attack.

[Necroticplague]

All of that being said, I realize I may have misinterpreted the point your were trying to make. So, if your point wasn't that "Readied actions don't have to be in your reach" then please feel free to disregard.

That was precisely the point I was trying to make. That's why I further pointed out that the readied attack (since a Counter Punch is a readied Attack action) doesn't have to be a melee attack.

Also, it seems like the 'this attack is treated as an attack action....' is redundant, because it is just a standard Attack action for all purposes. It's just readied to occur on the off-turn. Even by SoM's more strict definition of 'attack action' than normal, it still counts without that text.

Frankly,the above+Gazelle Punch makes it read like Boxing intended to be AoO based, but then they realized later in development that that made it not fit in the standard-action burning paradigm of most of the other Spheres, and changed it to use a Readied action instead, and didn't quiet convert completely.

[N. Jolly]

Mmm..... Slight problem. The type of action you can ready is not indicative of what can be done with the action. You can ready a standard action to move if someone moves towards you, is there a reason to doing that instead of move action? Not really, but you can. Also, Gazelle Punch specifically says,

The movement for gazelle was intended to be a free action that can be taken outside of your turn.

[SangoProduction]

The movement for gazelle was intended to be a free action that can be taken outside of your turn.

That first sentence was an example of what could be done with actions, not related to Gazelle Punch. Sorry for not delineating the two topics properly.

[Zexionthefirst]

So, Gazelle Punch is only applicable when you ready a counter punch. Counter punch is only applicable when you "ready an action to make an attack with a light melee weapon against the next enemy who makes a melee attack roll against you before the beginning of your next round"

Emphasis mine. So, if you're using a Sickle (which has a range of 5ft), you are not able to ready a melee attack against someone farther then 5ft away from you. Because you can't hit them. You can not move and attack as part of a readied action. That means you can't use counter punch either.

If you had Gazelle Punch, you would be treated as having 10ft of reach for the purpose of readying the counter punch, which means if I am 10 feet away you can use your counter punch against me. You move up, and hit me with your sickle, and gain the +2 competence bonus to damage rolls, ect... And you also gain an additional trigger that's to counter punch. So if I'm a spell caster, and the second trigger you chose is "A hostile creature using a spell or a spell-like ability" you would be able to move up, and attack.

[Necroticplague]

So, Gazelle Punch is only applicable when you ready a counter punch. Counter punch is only applicable when you "ready an action to make an attack with a light melee weapon against the next enemy who makes a melee attack roll against you before the beginning of your next round"

Emphasis mine. So, if you're using a Sickle (which has a range of 5ft), you are not able to ready a melee attack against someone farther then 5ft away from you. Because you can't hit them. You can not move and attack as part of a readied action. That means you can't use counter punch either.
Incorrect. Attack with a light melee weapon=/=melee attack. Readied actions don't intrinsically have anything to do with your reach.

[Zexionthefirst]

Incorrect. Attack with a light melee weapon=/=melee attack. Readied actions don't intrinsically have anything to do with your reach.

Okay, again. If I have a sickle I can ready an action to attack you if you attack me (or if you cast a spell, or open a door, or any other trigger I want). If you are outside my weapon's range, I can not attack you with that action. Because I can not move as part of my readied action, and I can not hit you with my sickle if you are more than 5 ft away.

As such, if you are outside of my weapon's range when you attack (or elsewise take an action that would trigger counter punch), the action does not happen. For example, if I chose you as my counter punch target, and the second additional trigger I pick is "A hostile creature using a spell or a spell-like ability", and you start casting a spell, my counter punch doesn't work if you are out of my weapon's range.

Gazelle Punch treats my sickle's range as 10 ft. Which means if you are 10 ft away, Gazelle Punch let's me trigger my counter punch, move a square so we're next to each other, and then attack you with my sickle gaining the bonuses from counter punch. If you were 15 ft away, outside of my modified sickle's reach of 10, my counter punch would not trigger because I can't hit you with a sickle if you're 15 ft away. And I can not move and attack as part of a counter punch without Gazelle Punch.

[SangoProduction]

That's probably how it's intended. It's not how the rules actually work. You can trigger the action, even if it is an invalid action. "I attack him, if he moves," while he is out of your reach is not an invalid readied action. It simply whiffs. He moves, you swing, nothing happens, if you choose to take it while you can't accomplish anything with it.

Thankfully the "outside of your reach" does mean that it doesn't invoke infinite kiting whenever anyone tries and make an attack on him.

[Zexionthefirst]

That's probably how it's intended. It's not how the rules actually work. You can trigger the action, even if it is an invalid action. "I attack him, if he moves," while he is out of your reach is not an invalid readied action. It simply whiffs. He moves, you swing, nothing happens, if you choose to take it while you can't accomplish anything with it.

Thankfully the "outside of your reach" does mean that it doesn't invoke infinite kiting whenever anyone tries and make an attack on him.


Ah. Okay, I see where you two are coming from now. Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies to Necroticplague for not catching on to their point sooner.

That being said, I definitely feel the way I was thinking about it is RAI. Not that it matters much :smallsmile:

[SangoProduction]

Ah. Okay, I see where you two are coming from now. Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies to Necroticplague for not catching on to their point sooner.

That being said, I definitely feel the way I was thinking about it is RAI. Not that it matters much :smallsmile:

Yeah, I say there's a good probability of that being true. I look forward to them reworking that talent (and maybe the entire sphere, as there's currently no real reason to use it)

[Necroticplague]

Okay, again. If I have a sickle I can ready an action to attack you if you attack me (or if you cast a spell, or open a door, or any other trigger I want). If you are outside my weapon's range, I can not attack you with that action. Because I can not move as part of my readied action, and I can not hit you with my sickle if you are more than 5 ft away. Incorrect. You can throw your sickle at me.

Ah. Okay, I see where you two are coming from now. Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies to Necroticplague for not catching on to their point sooner.
Apologies unnecessary, my own point was muddied by trying to make two at once. The first about things outside your reach being valid triggering events, and the second being that throwing melee weapons is still attacking with a melee weapon that can occur outside your reach.

That being said, I definitely feel the way I was thinking about it is RAI. Not that it matters much :smallsmile:
On this, we can definitely agree it's the likely intent. Thus, my earlier reference to Combat Patrol, which does work in basically that exact matter. The main, and crucial, difference being that AoO's are inextricably tied to melee attacks and their range (barring Snap Shot or similar), while Readied actions aren't. And Boxing doesn't have anything to make them so.

[Zexionthefirst]

I do have to ask, is there anything that let's you treat an unarmed strike as a light melee weapon. It seems, flavor wise, that an unarmed strike would be what counter punch and the like are thematically meant to work with. And if you can/could use it in conjunction with counter punch it would make Gazelle Punch worthwhile.

[Necroticplague]

I do have to ask, is there anything that let's you treat an unarmed strike as a light melee weapon. It seems, flavor wise, that an unarmed strike would be what counter punch and the like are thematically meant to work with. And if you can/could use it in conjunction with counter punch it would make Gazelle Punch worthwhile.Yes. There's a relevant line from 3.5 that PF carried over on the topic.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.