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MrStabby
2018-02-05, 08:48 AM
There have been a few threads through the years about how to modify the Ranger class to make a spellless variant and there has been a UA on such as well.

I was a little surprised to find much less discussion on the same for Paladin - the other half-caster class.

This got me thinking about how you could build a Paladin with no casting ability as a class. Between smiting and a series of pretty good spells, a lot of the Paladin's power comes from their spell slots.

Things like the auras can stay and there may be an option for bringing forward improved divine smite.

My thoughts would be that improved divine smite comes in at level 2 as a d4 on all melee weapon attacks, d6 at level 5, d8 at 8, d10 at level 11 and d12 at level 14. This would be a long way from the power of the existing divine smite package but would help close the gap.

Channel divinity would go to 2 uses per short rest and an extra use at level 9. Maybe allow a smite attack for 3*smite damage die by expending a channel divinity.

Maybe remove the limitations of detect good and evil to flesh out the non-combat side a little. Maybe an ability to make lying to the paladin more difficult?


Just running through some ideas here - nothing definite and no immediate plans to use one.

clash
2018-02-05, 09:00 AM
At a glance, I would keep smite and have it limited per long rest.

Ie: When you reach level 2 you can smite charisma modifier times per long rest, and it deals 2d8 dmg
At level 5 this damage increases to 3d8, at level 9 4d8, and at level 13 5d8. This let you smite less times than normal but more times at full damage so pretty good trade.

Then I would add in utility to make up for the loss of lower level spell slots and maybe another aura to compensate for losing bless.

Toofey
2018-02-05, 09:03 AM
Why not keep the spell slots but get rid of the spells themselves. You can already choose to play your paladin that way. Maybe beef up lay on hands (make it recharge after a ritual prayer during SR?). I also feel like this looses a lot of Paladinness if you don't also have the bonded mount at some point. I already think 5e puts it at too high a level (what 10th you get that spell?), maybe have it come in with the 7th level path feature set?

Crgaston
2018-02-05, 09:09 AM
Interesting!

I imagine there’s less of a push for one because you can easily play the existing paladin without ever casting a spell, using all your slots for smiting.

But for the sake of argument...

Remove the Spellcasting feature, change “Spell Slots” to “Smite Slots,” let Divine Sense and Lay on Hands recharge on a short rest, and change Channel Divinity to 1+ Cha mod uses per long rest.

Done. I’d play that.

Removes some versatility but adds some more uses of class/oath defining powers.

Edit: Ninja’d!

Plus forgot about the mount! Yeah, that’d have to be a class feature at L5.

MrStabby
2018-02-05, 09:11 AM
Good call on the mount. I think there is some viable design space there.

What to do with levels 12+ when we look for replacement for higher level spells is less obvious.

Also the oaths get some power from their domain spells so may need something there for extra flavour (although more CD might help in practice if not actually adding to a list).

I am not a fan of keeping the spell slots - if I were to remove spells I think it would be to simplify the class to somewhat reduce bookkeeping. When you have level 1 slots, level 2 slots, levels 3, 4 and 5 slots, channel divinity, lay on hands and HP to keep track of there are a lot of variables in play.

Quoz
2018-02-05, 09:23 AM
I think if you exchange spells for Smites you end up with something very similar to battlemaster. I would want some rider effects to choose from, as with the various smite spells.

Specter
2018-02-05, 09:26 AM
I think Arkhios was the one who made a full class progression of the spell-less Paladin. But I don't know where it is.

Vaz
2018-02-05, 09:28 AM
They're called Smites. There is already an alternative use for your Spell Slots as a Paladin, so there doesn't need to be a Spell-less version of it. Unlike a Ranger, which cannot expend their spellslots for anything except spells, a Paladin is fine straight out of the box. For those saying that they want rider effects - there are literally "Smite" spells which have rider effects.

The Paladin does everything everyone is calling for it out of the box.

strangebloke
2018-02-05, 09:35 AM
Good call on the mount. I think there is some viable design space there.

What to do with levels 12+ when we look for replacement for higher level spells is less obvious.

Also the oaths get some power from their domain spells so may need something there for extra flavour (although more CD might help in practice if not actually adding to a list).

I am not a fan of keeping the spell slots - if I were to remove spells I think it would be to simplify the class to somewhat reduce bookkeeping. When you have level 1 slots, level 2 slots, levels 3, 4 and 5 slots, channel divinity, lay on hands and HP to keep track of there are a lot of variables in play.

Give them a pool of 'smite points' that is roughly equivalent to the number of spell levels they'd have at a given level. IE: 3 lvl 1 spells = 3 smite points, 3 lvl 3 spells = 9 smite points. They can expend up to 1/4 their level in smite points on a turn to deal (sp expended +1)d8 extra radiant damage. You could even merge this with their lay on hands pool if you wanted to go nuts.

Now, the funny thing is that this paladin, although losing a large portion of the strength of the paladin class... still is a perfectly balanced class. At least, it's not going to be far behind the fighter and barbarian in terms of ability. I would give him a mount as a class feature, and maybe some other kind of bump at the level he'd usually get aura of vitality at.

Arkhios
2018-02-05, 09:37 AM
A paladin without spellcasting should definitely not have spell slots. Those things are connected for a reason. However, getting rid of a maximum total of 15 spell slots per long rest leaves quite substantial power vacuum to be considered.

I would actually replace the spellcasting with something akin to Ki or Sorcery Points. A set amount of points which you can expend to use Divine Smite (of varying power) or something little extra with Lay on Hands.

If mount really is so much of a must have (personally, don't think so) I'd look no further than Beast Master ranger's companion for guidelines. A permanent mount that gets better int and hit points than usual would be alright as a 5th level feature, but I think it should get additional improvements at levels 9, 13, and 17. Maybe ASI as the Revised Ranger Companion (as in: no feats)

MrStabby
2018-02-05, 10:15 AM
I could see a spell points variant type ability for paladins. The points could power channel divinity, smites and lay on hands. One resource.

The loss of flexibility from loss of spellcasting would be covered by the greater flexibility in the other abilities.

JackPhoenix
2018-02-05, 10:38 AM
https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1501/28/1501288762259.pdf

Check Knight.

Vaz
2018-02-05, 11:20 AM
A paladin without spellcasting should definitely not have spell slots. Those things are connected for a reason. However, getting rid of a maximum total of 15 spell slots per long rest leaves quite substantial power vacuum to be considered.

I would actually replace the spellcasting with something akin to Ki or Sorcery Points. A set amount of points which you can expend to use Divine Smite (of varying power) or something little extra with Lay on Hands.

If mount really is so much of a must have (personally, don't think so) I'd look no further than Beast Master ranger's companion for guidelines. A permanent mount that gets better int and hit points than usual would be alright as a 5th level feature, but I think it should get additional improvements at levels 9, 13, and 17. Maybe ASI as the Revised Ranger Companion (as in: no feats)

Spell Slots are connected, but you don't need a Spell Slot to cast a spell (ref; Magic Items, Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Racial Innate Casting). If a Spell Slot is renamed a Smite Slot, then it's no longer a Spell Slot, and a Paladin doesn't need to functionally change. Your Find Steed, or Find Greater Steed now cost a 2nd level or 4th level smite slot in it's place. Instead of using a Divine Smite with a Smite Slot, you can expend a 1st level Smite Slot to cast Wrathful Smite.

MrStabby
2018-02-05, 11:44 AM
Spell Slots are connected, but you don't need a Spell Slot to cast a spell (ref; Magic Items, Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Racial Innate Casting). If a Spell Slot is renamed a Smite Slot, then it's no longer a Spell Slot, and a Paladin doesn't need to functionally change. Your Find Steed, or Find Greater Steed now cost a 2nd level or 4th level smite slot in it's place. Instead of using a Divine Smite with a Smite Slot, you can expend a 1st level Smite Slot to cast Wrathful Smite.

I wasn't thinking the point of the thread as to make no functional change. Nor actually to make the minimum possible change whilst still not casting spells. I was hoping to explore creative ways of making the BEST possible changes to end up with a spell-free paladin.

Callin
2018-02-05, 11:51 AM
Could always give them a pool of Smite Dice like the Dreams Druid or even the Whispers Bard.

ThatDrowPlayer
2018-02-05, 12:38 PM
If you want to play a spell-less paladin, run a Fighter. You can take the Purple Dragon Knight (believe that's the name) from Sword Coast as your archetype. You can then role-play the Oaths.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but it sounds like what you want to play is essentially a Knight-class. Knights and Paladins are very similar, but the thing that makes them different is the thing you want remove. Knights are often depicted as fighting for the honor of gods, kings, and countries. They take oaths that they are bound to, but more akin to things they swear to defend.

Paladins are holy warriors, specifically, and are different because they are imbued with divine power. They focus more on virtues, right and wrong, and fighting evil, so their lives are more spiritual than knights. Without their magic, they are no different from a knight, doubly so in 5e. If you remove the magic, that includes the smiting because you're calling on divine power, and without any divine power or spells, you're playing a Fighter, except you lose a lot of features.

I would just run a Fighter, maybe even the Purple Dragon Knight, instead of making a spell-less paladin, as they will effectively be the same, just one will get class features and the other won't, unless you homebrew it which will take more time than it would to roll up a Fighter.

clash
2018-02-05, 12:47 PM
The first thing before any of this is you need a definition of what a Paladin is and what you want to keep:

A Paladin is:

Auras
Smite
Spells
Steed?
Martial Abilities
Other buffing capabilities
Healing
Detect Evil?


Then pick what you want to keep and either make those things better or add new things to replace the ones that are being removed.

MrStabby
2018-02-05, 01:03 PM
If you want to play a spell-less paladin, run a Fighter. You can take the Purple Dragon Knight (believe that's the name) from Sword Coast as your archetype. You can then role-play the Oaths.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but it sounds like what you want to play is essentially a Knight-class. Knights and Paladins are very similar, but the thing that makes them different is the thing you want remove. Knights are often depicted as fighting for the honor of gods, kings, and countries. They take oaths that they are bound to, but more akin to things they swear to defend.

Paladins are holy warriors, specifically, and are different because they are imbued with divine power. They focus more on virtues, right and wrong, and fighting evil, so their lives are more spiritual than knights. Without their magic, they are no different from a knight, doubly so in 5e. If you remove the magic, that includes the smiting because you're calling on divine power, and without any divine power or spells, you're playing a Fighter, except you lose a lot of features.

I would just run a Fighter, maybe even the Purple Dragon Knight, instead of making a spell-less paladin, as they will effectively be the same, just one will get class features and the other won't, unless you homebrew it which will take more time than it would to roll up a Fighter.


I don't want to play a spelless paladin. I want to explore how a variant class might be built. I want to see what people think the core concepts are, how they can be rendered in the class without spells.

My desire to build a variant class is unfortunately not well satisfied by the solution to "use a different class".

Vaz
2018-02-05, 01:25 PM
I wasn't thinking the point of the thread as to make no functional change. Nor actually to make the minimum possible change whilst still not casting spells. I was hoping to explore creative ways of making the BEST possible changes to end up with a spell-free paladin.
I don't understand what you mean by that. What do "the best possible changes to make a spell free paladin" consist of?


Things like the auras can stay and there may be an option for bringing forward improved divine smite.
What aura's? You mean the class featured ones? Or do you mean the spells? I thought you wanted a spell free one, so why are you mirroring a spell? Just because a spell isn't cast from a spell slot doesn't mean it's not a spell; and it doesn't change gameplay really.


My thoughts would be that improved divine smite comes in at level 2 as a d4 on all melee weapon attacks, d6 at level 5, d8 at 8, d10 at level 11 and d12 at level 14. This would be a long way from the power of the existing divine smite package but would help close the gap.
I don't really understand why you need to change normal Paladin Smites.


Channel divinity would go to 2 uses per short rest and an extra use at level 9. Maybe allow a smite attack for 3*smite damage die by expending a channel divinity.
I've always thought that it would be nice to have a way to sacrifice spell slots in some way to use Channel Divinity again (either by casting a spell, or a feat; I've homebrewed an item to allow a player to sacrifice a use of a 3rd level spell as an action to use Channel Divinity immediately, and it didn't seem too unbalanced, even when it got donated to the Cleric).


Maybe remove the limitations of detect good and evil to flesh out the non-combat side a little. Maybe an ability to make lying to the paladin more difficult?
You mean like Zone of Truth does?

See while I get what you're wanting to do is make a spell-less Paladin, but what you're really doing is making a Paladin without spell slots; it's still casting spells - I'm assuming by it's "Aura of" spells (although being fair, it would be nice to have a 2nd character build choice that would allow you to "always on" a self-aura spell; something I've allowed people to Extend with a homebrew metamagic item that allows the Paladin to cast a single "Self only" spell. This wasn't traded away, however, as it was built into the effects of a divinely gifted item); and zone of truth, and the the ability to expend X resource-that-is-totally-not-a-spell-slot to deal a Smite attack, but also gain additional uses of -totally-not-a-spell-slot?

So, the ultimate difference from your suggestions is that you lose out on Damage spikes in favour of more consistent damage, at least until you get an additional totally-not-a-spell-slot, and can't have a horsey; and you can't cast certain spells, which you don't need to prepare anyway...

To which I say again, that's a load of bother when it's just simpler to say "Don't prepare spells you don't want to cast, and just prepare "Aura of" and "X-ing Smite" spells. The only difference being now that the Paladin still has it's shtick (large potential for huge spike damage when it hits with a Crit), rather than just being slightly less consistent at dealing damage than a fighter.

But sure, keep ahead with keeping things "different", that ultimately end up being the same, rather than refluffing things.

Jamesps
2018-02-05, 01:28 PM
I'm running a game right now where I just replaced the Paladin spell mechanic with the bardic inspiration mechanic, and then used those inspiration dice to fuel their smiting.

It worked pretty well I thought.

MrStabby
2018-02-05, 01:32 PM
I'm running a game right now where I just replaced the Paladin spell mechanic with the bardic inspiration mechanic, and then used those inspiration dice to fuel their smiting.

It worked pretty well I thought.

Interesting. So short rest recovery (post PvP 5), can use them to inspire or smite?

How does this scale though? Seems like you hit the limit of your smite ability pretty quickly? Does the die size scale as well for damage?

sithlordnergal
2018-02-05, 01:36 PM
So, you'll want to find a way to keep Smite for the Paladin. This will involve using some sort of point system for Smite that restores on a long rest, which just increases book keeping. Especially when you start increasing Smite damage dice.

I would scrap the improved smite idea. It's really just a poor man's sneak attack, and is far worse then sneak attack at basically all levels.

ThatDrowPlayer
2018-02-05, 02:25 PM
I don't want to play a spelless paladin. I want to explore how a variant class might be built. I want to see what people think the core concepts are, how they can be rendered in the class without spells.

My desire to build a variant class is unfortunately not well satisfied by the solution to "use a different class".

Fair enough. You could always give your Variant access to Combat Maneuvers in place of spells. You could actually then keep a lot of what is already there, and just have the class "cast" Maneuvers with their spell slots. I think a few other posters have suggested that spell slots are not used only for casting spells, so you could make them use Maneuvers instead with their slots. In a way, you'd still be a caster, but you wouldn't be doing spells, rather more martial abilities. Instead of the smites, it could just be the scaling bonus damage that was mentioned earlier.

Vaz
2018-02-05, 02:38 PM
Fair enough. You could always give your Variant access to Combat Maneuvers in place of spells. You could actually then keep a lot of what is already there, and just have the class "cast" Maneuvers with their spell slots. I think a few other posters have suggested that spell slots are not used only for casting spells, so you could make them use Maneuvers instead with their slots. In a way, you'd still be a caster, but you wouldn't be doing spells, rather more martial abilities. Instead of the smites, it could just be the scaling bonus damage that was mentioned earlier.
Might as well give it additional attacks. Maybe a use of channel divinity that lets it attack twice per turn? Maybe, to make up for lack of spell slots, use it up to twice per short rest? Also, also, change Lay on Hands. Make it a bonus action, and lets you heal your paladin level back, but only 1/short rest to balance it. Maybe add a random dice roll, I dunno, 1d10? Don't know if that is balanced though. The saves is a big issue though, might be a bit unbalanced? Perhaps we could just let someone reroll them a few times instead?

ThatDrowPlayer
2018-02-05, 03:21 PM
Might as well give it additional attacks. Maybe a use of channel divinity that lets it attack twice per turn? Maybe, to make up for lack of spell slots, use it up to twice per short rest? Also, also, change Lay on Hands. Make it a bonus action, and lets you heal your paladin level back, but only 1/short rest to balance it. Maybe add a random dice roll, I dunno, 1d10? Don't know if that is balanced though. The saves is a big issue though, might be a bit unbalanced? Perhaps we could just let someone reroll them a few times instead?

I think a "Channel Divinity: Double Attack" would do a good amount of damage. A lot of the bonus damage a paladin gets are from the smites, so I wouldn't restrict the use of Extra Attack when you use this feature, but a DM might also view it as using your action to cast a CD rather than still attacking. I would say that when you use your CD:DA, you can make one additional action before the end of your next turn or something to that effect, that way you get 3 attacks in one round.

I also think of you go that route, burning spell slots to regain CDs is a must. You would just lose a percentage of damage you get with smiting, especially when all your attacks deal radiant on higher levels.

I also like the idea of Lay on Hands being a bonus action. Instead of it being a spell, it could be like applying first aid to a creature. You essentially just reflavor it. Maybe they could a bonus to any saves equal to a scaling die roll or your proficiency bonus? That would balance it a bit, I think, plus give it longevity late game.

GlenSmash!
2018-02-05, 04:11 PM
If you took Hunters Mark, Spike Growth, Conjure Volley and a few other spells and turned them into class features that refresh on a Long rest, I think I'd have a Spell-Less Ranger that would be indistinguishable from my actual Ranger.

It's even easier to do on Paladins, as they already can and do use spell slots for non-spells.

Vaz
2018-02-05, 04:51 PM
I think a "Channel Divinity: Double Attack" would do a good amount of damage. A lot of the bonus damage a paladin gets are from the smites, so I wouldn't restrict the use of Extra Attack when you use this feature, but a DM might also view it as using your action to cast a CD rather than still attacking. I would say that when you use your CD:DA, you can make one additional action before the end of your next turn or something to that effect, that way you get 3 attacks in one round.

I also think of you go that route, burning spell slots to regain CDs is a must. You would just lose a percentage of damage you get with smiting, especially when all your attacks deal radiant on higher levels.

I also like the idea of Lay on Hands being a bonus action. Instead of it being a spell, it could be like applying first aid to a creature. You essentially just reflavor it. Maybe they could a bonus to any saves equal to a scaling die roll or your proficiency bonus? That would balance it a bit, I think, plus give it longevity late game.

Schwing. That's onomatopeia for going over the head. I'm basically saying to the extent that the OP doesn't want a spell less Paladin, they want a Battle Master fighter.

Jamesps
2018-02-05, 05:50 PM
Interesting. So short rest recovery (post PvP 5), can use them to inspire or smite?

How does this scale though? Seems like you hit the limit of your smite ability pretty quickly? Does the die size scale as well for damage?

I (arbitrarily) made inspiration dice worth three smite dice. Then I used the dice size for the smite dice. So you would max out at 5*3d12 smites per short rest, which seemed a little better than the standard paladin would use but without the versatility of actual high level paladin spells.

At the highest level it works out to 292 points of damage versus 252 for a traditional paladin, but with less nova potential.

ThatDrowPlayer
2018-02-05, 06:39 PM
Schwing. That's onomatopeia for going over the head. I'm basically saying to the extent that the OP doesn't want a spell less Paladin, they want a Battle Master fighter.

So if you lose the Divine Smite bonuses because you take out all magic/spell related options, you underperform as a Paladin. Divine Smite gets you 1d8 radiant damage in addition to your normal weapon damage if you spend a spell slot on your attack. On average, that's a bonus 4 points of radiant damage.

You get Improved Divine Smite on 11th level, which now grants you 1d8 radiant damage in addition to your normal weapon damage without having to spend a spell slot. Unless you're fighting an enemy that is resistant or immune to radiant damage, you should be dealing 1[W]+1d8 radiant damage + Strength Modifier damage on every attack. At 5th level, you get Extra Attack, meaning you should be dealing 2[W]+ 2(Strength Modifier)+ 2d8 radiant damage. That's a huge increase.

If you're using a Greatsword, for example, you're dealing 4d6+SM+SM+2d8 - on average, this is 23+SM+SM (14 on your attack plus 9 radiant damage). Without the smiting, you're only dealing 14 on average while every other paladin will be getting their 9 radiant damage. This means the Variant would be underperforming as a paladin, so he would need a way to make up the lost damage. Without spells, he would have to get the bonus from his Channel Divinity, so getting an extra attack in there, or another form of damage, will bring it back up.

Back in the example, let's say you have a Strength Modifier of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. This is what damage you would be dealing on average with your smiting:

1) 4d6+1+1+2d8= 14+2+9= 25 total damage
2) 4d6+2+2+2d8= 14+4+9= 27 total damage
3) 4d6+3+3+2d8= 14+6+9= 29 total damage
4) 4d6+4+4+2d8= 14+8+9= 31 total damage
5) 4d6+5+5+2d8= 14+10+9= 33 total damage

Without the bonus damage from smiting, you'd be dealing the following:

1) 4d6+1+1= 14+2= 16 total damage
2) 4d6+2+2= 14+4= 18 total damage
3) 4d6+3+3= 14+6= 20 total damage
4) 4d6+4+4= 14+8= 22 total damage
5) 4d6+5+5= 14+10= 24 total damage

As you can see, on average he is not doing as much damage as normal paladins, so he either needs to keep the smiting damage (which would go against the concept of having a non-spellcasting paladin) or he needs a feature to make up the damage, such as a third attack with Channel Divinity or other bonuses.

Vaz
2018-02-05, 08:08 PM
https://i.imgur.com/3Vv2G6v.png

MrStabby
2018-02-06, 04:11 AM
I think it is a fair observation that without smites the paladin falls behind in terms of damage. There could be a discussion about whether the paladin should be top tier in terms of damage (being a better assassin than the assassin) or if it should be more defensive.

There is also a view (which I am not saying is wrong) that the paladin should fuel extra damage with a limited resource. Without doubt it is a fun mechanic although I am interested in alternative as well.

I loved the idea of inspiration dice. It seems a great fit for an inspirational leader and provides a way to cover off utility lost by losing spells. The actual trade off between damage and boosting other rolls seems a little weighted towards damage, but that seems like fine tuning could fix.

On the other hand, keeping the paladin distinct from other classes whilst doing this is an extra task. Given the power of the auras I don't think it will be too tough at those higher levels.

Malifice
2018-02-06, 04:25 AM
There have been a few threads through the years about how to modify the Ranger class to make a spellless variant and there has been a UA on such as well.

I was a little surprised to find much less discussion on the same for Paladin - the other half-caster class.

This got me thinking about how you could build a Paladin with no casting ability as a class. Between smiting and a series of pretty good spells, a lot of the Paladin's power comes from their spell slots.

Things like the auras can stay and there may be an option for bringing forward improved divine smite.

My thoughts would be that improved divine smite comes in at level 2 as a d4 on all melee weapon attacks, d6 at level 5, d8 at 8, d10 at level 11 and d12 at level 14. This would be a long way from the power of the existing divine smite package but would help close the gap.

Channel divinity would go to 2 uses per short rest and an extra use at level 9. Maybe allow a smite attack for 3*smite damage die by expending a channel divinity.

Maybe remove the limitations of detect good and evil to flesh out the non-combat side a little. Maybe an ability to make lying to the paladin more difficult?


Just running through some ideas here - nothing definite and no immediate plans to use one.

Divine smite needs to keep up with Battlemaster damage.

I'd make it an [X] per short rest class feature.

2 x Short rest at 2nd level, improving to 3/ short rest at 11th and 4/ short rest at 17th.

Damage is 2d8 radiant at levels 2-4, increasing by +1d8 at levels 5, 11, and 17. An extra +1d8 radiant vs undead and fiends as normal. (Evil paladins, or neutral paladins of Evil gods may choose necrotic).

For spell casting, then all you need is added utility baked into the class (plus a smidgeon of defence).

Zanthy1
2018-02-06, 07:59 AM
The first thing before any of this is you need a definition of what a Paladin is and what you want to keep:

A Paladin is:

Auras
Smite
Spells
Steed?
Martial Abilities
Other buffing capabilities
Healing
Detect Evil?


Then pick what you want to keep and either make those things better or add new things to replace the ones that are being removed.

So by following what the OP initially asked for, we are scrapping spells and keeping much of the rest. I would make the mount a class feature, getting the find steed ability at 4th level and the find greater steed ability at 9th or 10th, with possibly even a stronger version at a higher level. Detect evil I would alter to not have uses, simply an at will thing like the 3.5 pally, with an added per day use of Truth Speak or something, making someone not be able to answer with a lie a certain number of times equal to charisma modifier.

To answer the smite and spells, I liked the idea that someone above posted about smite points similar to ki or sorcerer's. Obviously the number you'd get would involve some formula. I would say you get em all back on a long rest and maybe like, 1d6 on a short rest? Something like that could work. I would also replace some of the key spells of the paladin class as class abilities (as seen above with the find steed). Spells I personally would pick would be Bless, Aura of Vitality, the smite spells (use as riders for extra smite point costs), and Holy Weapon.

Sindeloke
2018-02-06, 08:41 AM
I'm AFB at the moment, but how much "utility" do we actually need to give them? I haven't seen a pally in play in a while, but from what I remember of the spell list it's mostly healing spells, self-focused damage buffs, and the occasional demon-focused crowd control (banishing smite). Most of that's already in the base class. Maneuvers is an easy solution (works for rangers, after all), or you could add a couple banish/knockback options for riders on a smite. Tag Zone of Truth onto detect evil as Zanthy suggests and your bases are pretty much covered.

Oaths do need a good buffing to make up for the bonus spells, though. Since auras are so central to the class it seems like the easy replacement is an appropriately themed extra aura (party damage buff for Vengeance, damage transfer for Devotion, enemy snaring for Fey? just spitballing here).

Personally I feel like the main thing that makes a paladin a paladin is that it's the unselfish martial. Fighters, barbarians, rogues and monks all get ways to increase their own damage, heal or protect themselves, attack their enemies. Even subclasses that are meant to make those classes more group-friendly are hamstrung by the strongly selfish base class feature budget. Only paladins pass out massive buffs to their allies 24/7 just for standing there. As long as you're filling that design space it's still a paladin imo.