3.5e Newb. Help me with my Rogue/Swashbuckler Build Please

[CrimsonRaven]

I will be joining a 3.5 espionage/rebellion themed campaign very soon.
Seems like i'll be the party's rogue( I will be human)
I was thinking of going the Rogue-Swashubuckler multiclass I've heard about.
Also note that magical items will be hard to be found at the early levels, because Arcane magic has been banned in the city we will be playing in.

My Stats at 5th level are
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con:17
Int:18
Wis:12
Cha:12

Only problem is I do not know 3.5e too well, so I would like some feats recommendation.
We start with 5-level characters. I am thinking of going with a Rogue3 / Swashbuckler2 for the begining.
Obviously I will be getting Daring Outlaw quite soon(6 level) I don't think I can get it earlier since it requires 2 levels of each class, and thus I cannot get it at level 3.
Beyond that what other feats would you recommend?


I was thinking of getting Able Learner for one of my 1st level feats, and Two weapon fighting for the other. But still I am not sure what I should get for the remaining 3rd level feat.
Darkstalker seems nice, though it doesn't look to my like an early feat. I just looks like the kind of feat that gives more value later on in the game. I could be wrong of course . And nothing wrong with having it from early on, but if there was something better to help me survive to later levels I would very much appreciate it for now.
Craven looks like a heavy trade off. And generally my will saves suck with a 12 Wisdom Score. Maybe something to boost them would be a good idea? Iron Will? I was thinking of Mage Slayer Or maybe something I have entirely not thought of?
Also Staggering Strike and Pierce Magical Concealment look rather appealing for later levels. What are your thoughts on these?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


As far as I Know ,Tome of Battle is banned.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd suggest getting Craven before Two Weapon Fighting actually. At low levels every bit of to-hit counts and getting full attacks is hard until you can pick up some swift-action movement.
The save penalty is only against fear, which shouldn't come up that often until you can address it.

Don't bother taking a feat to deal with your will save - you're already feat-starved as a TWFer and rogue as it is. You can patch that with gear fairly cheaply. Have a handbook for that. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=188)

Darkstalker potentially kicks in fairly early, so i wouldn't wait too long with it. More importantly as you level up you'll qualify for other feats you'll also want, so there's a good chance you'll have to make some painful tradeoffs if you don't get it in early.

Staggering Strike is a great feat. Try to squeeze it in ASAP.

Pierce Magical Concealment is very nice, but it's also very feat hungry (Blindsight, Mageslayer, PMC) on your already feat-starved build.
You can get similar functionality by upgrading your weapon with Illusion Bane (MIC), which may be a more appealing alternative. You'll also want to get Blindsight anyway, which already deals with most forms of concealment fine. A Scout's Headband (MIC) is also a cheap alternative to pierce most forms of concealment that can be bought early and doesn't use one of your feat slots.

[Darrin]

I was thinking of getting Able Learner for one of my 1st level feats, and Two weapon fighting for the other.


Shameless plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook&p=15034585#post15034585).

Could you explain why you think you're going to need Able Learner? You're a human rogue with 18 Int, and the Swashbuckler skill list is already pretty decent. You will have plenty of skill points to buy a couple cross-class skills if you have to.



But still I am not sure what I should get for the remaining 3rd level feat.


Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) is a good pick for TWFers. If multiclass penalties are not observed, then it's usually more effective to take a Cloistered Cleric dip and pick it up as one of your domains. If multiclass penalties are in play, then you can take Travel Devotion more than once to get additional uses per day.



Darkstalker seems nice, though it doesn't look to my like an early feat. I just looks like the kind of feat that gives more value later on in the game. I could be wrong of course .


You are not wrong, but your later feat slots are likely to be dedicated to other feats, such as Daring Outlaw (6th), Improved TWF (9th), and Staggering Strike (12th). Getting it at 3rd isn't an entirely bad idea, unless you're trying to make room for Travel Devotion.



Craven looks like a heavy trade off. And generally my will saves suck with a 12 Wisdom Score.


The extra damage from Craven is worth a lot more than the -2 penalty on fear effects. A Cloak of Resistance +2 is only 4000 GP. There are a half-dozen or so magic items or enhancements in the Magic Item Compendium that grant a bonus on Will saves or fear effects.



Maybe something to boost them would be a good idea? Iron Will? I was thinking of Mage Slayer Or maybe something I have entirely not thought of?
Also Staggering Strike and Pierce Magical Concealment look rather appealing for later levels. What are your thoughts on these?


Iron Will can be obtained via the Otyugh Hole legendary location (Complete Scoundrel p. 151) for 3000 GP. Since you're starting at 5th level, you could ask the DM if you can put this into your character background and spend part of your starting WBL on this feat. You'd be starting the game short on cash, but buying the feat is probably better in the long run.

Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment are nice to have, but it requires three feat slots, and I'm not sure you have room for all three. Ask if Flaws (from Unearthed Arcana) are available. Otherwise, a dip into Fighter 1 to pick up Blind-Fight (or another fighter bonus feat) won't slow you down too much and will still allow you to get 10d6 sneak attack at level 20. You can combine this with the Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark to add your Dex bonus as damage against flat-footed opponents. If this would incur multiclass penalties, you can go Dragonborn of Bahamut to make Fighter a favored class, or dip into Knight of the Middle Circle 1 (Defenders of the Faith) for Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.

However, if I had feat slots available, I'd probably go with Combat Reflexes and Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). After that, Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) is just waiting for you to get the BAB requirement.

[CrimsonRaven]

Thank you for your recommendations I shall consider them all. Or almost all
Well to begin with it's true that feats are very scarce in 3.5. You get 3 less than you do in pathfinder... Meh

However I remind you

Also note that magical items will be hard to be found at the early levels, because Arcane magic has been banned in the city we will be playing in.

Sorry allow me to clarify. You get killed for casting, possessing or selling anything of arcane nature. Executed. Burned alive.
And magical items of divine nature, though not banned are very scarce and hoarded by the tyrants who rule this land. They are kind of heretics of acertain deity.

Since when 9 skill points per level is a lot for a skillman? The skill list is exessive. I have like 12 skills I want to upgrade at each level. And burning 2 points for half of them seems awful If I put it mildly.

Travel Devotion sounds pretty nice allowing you to move and full attack. But for an one per day action economy a feat seems too much. Now if you do stack it it sounds even more appealing, but also... more feats burned :/
And no I will not take a level of Cloistered Cleric. It simply does not fit the flavor.

I had thought about needing other feats at later levels, and that seemed like the only reason to get darkstalker early actually. Seems you are right on this one.

[Darrin]

Also note that magical items will be hard to be found at the early levels, because Arcane magic has been banned in the city we will be playing in.


I'm tempted to call this a strike against Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment, but I have a feeling that as the campaign progresses, it's likely that you'll run into more enemies with spellcasting abilities.



Since when 9 skill points per level is a lot for a skillman? The skill list is exessive. I have like 12 skills I want to upgrade at each level. And burning 2 points for half of them seems awful If I put it mildly.


Feat slots are usually more important than skill points.



And no I will not take a level of Cloistered Cleric. It simply does not fit the flavor.


The Fighter 1 dip can help alleviate some of the pressure on feat slots. You didn't mention if multiclass penalties are being enforced. Also, are Flaws from Unearthed Arcana available?

[gorfnab]

How lenient is your DM? Simple Variant [Feat] Rogue (UA) 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Simple Variant [Sneak Attack] Fighter (UA) 3/ Feat Rogue 13 with the feat Daring Outlaw taken at 9th level. This gives you a decent amount of BAB, skills, sneak attack, and lots of bonus Fighter feats.

[CrimsonRaven]

I don't know about flaws but most I have seen are way too much of a burden to actually carry even for a feat, that's why I didn't ask tbh.

As far as I have realized multiclassing penalties occur if you have a certain difference between the level you are trying to take and your highest level of a class. But not if any of these two is a favored class. Correct me if I am wrong. It seems to alien and weird to me so I am not sure if it works. DM has not mentioned it once till now.

And well as scarce as feats seem to be in 3.5e, that might be true compared to skill points. But I have a hunch we will be rolling skill much more than attack rolls just saying.

And yes we will be facing spell casters. I am sure of it. As far as I know the tyrants already have Divine casters at their disposal. Powerful ones. Worhsipers of that certain deity of their. A fire godess of destruction or something like that.

I don't think DM allows or wants "dead levels"

[KillingAScarab]

As far as I have realized multiclassing penalties occur if you have a certain difference between the level you are trying to take and your highest level of a class. But not if any of these two is a favored class. Correct me if I am wrong. It seems to alien and weird to me so I am not sure if it works. DM has not mentioned it once till now.Here's what to keep in mind if your DM will use multiclass penalties. Multiclass penalties are levied against you every time you gain experience points when you have two (or more) base classes which are out of balance (the difference in level is greater than 1) and neither is a favored class for your character's race. Favored classes are intended to reflect what comes naturally for a specific race, but this limits creativity (thus, many DMs do not enforce the penalty). You're planning to play a human, and a human may consider any one class to be their favored class. As long as you are only going to use two base classes, you can play anything and you will be fine. Prestige classes are not considered for multiclass penalties.


I don't think DM allows or wants "dead levels""Dead levels" is a reference to any level in a class during which it gives you nothing, because earlier on in the development of 3.5 they weren't seen as a problem. The Dead Levels II article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) contains suggestions for how to fix the problem.