Expanded STR, INT, and CHA saves (PEACH)

[Crisis21]

I'm sure anyone reading this is well aware of how little the Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma saving throws are used in 5e so here's a couple suggestions I had for expanding their use. As always, please comment and let me know what you think.


Stand Firm (Strength Saving Throws)

So, what in the world would Strength saves be good for? Well, if the existing game is to be believed, not getting knocked prone. Most Strength saves seem to deal with effects that would at least knock the player character prone if not damage them. Basically, it's your ability to imitate an immovable object.

So, if a character tries to step up against something imitating an irresistible force, have them roll a Strength save.

A few examples:

A charging enemy: DC 8 + enemy's proficiency (if applicable) + enemy's Strength bonus. Half damage and halt enemy movement on a success, full damage and knocked prone on failure.

A runaway cart/vehicle:
Same size category as character: DC 15
Every size category smaller than character: -5 to DC
Every size category larger than character: +5 to DC

Weight is less than or equal to character's carrying capacity: Advantage
Weight of object is greater than character's dead lift capacity: Disadvantage

Boulder Trap: DC 30


Think Fast (Intelligence Saving Throws)

Correct a mistake:
I'm sure we've all had those rolls on skill and tool checks where you or an ally almost made it, but still failed. Well, here's the second chance we've all been wanting.

When an ally of yours within range of the Help action fails a skill or tool check by 3 or less, you can use your Reaction to make an Intelligence saving throw at the original DC of the roll they failed to assist them and prevent the mistake before it happens. If you succeed, they are considered to have just barely met the DC of their roll. Only one ally may make an Intelligence saving throw to aid another per round.
Note: It is up to the DM whether you need to be within 5 ft. of the ally you are assisting or not.

When you fail a skill or tool check you have proficiency in on a task that takes at least 10 minutes to perform by 3 or less on the DC, you may make an Intelligence saving throw at the original DC to attempt to correct and salvage your mistake. If you succeed on the saving throw, you are considered to have just barely met the DC of your original roll. Whether you succeed or fail on the saving throw, the task itself takes (1d5*10)% longer than it otherwise would have.

Get a hint:
This is where player and character differences start to make themselves known. A character is in a tough situation and the player has no clue how to get them out, even though the character really should have plenty of smarts to think of something. In this situation, the DM can allow the player to roll an Intelligence saving throw at an appropriate DC to the situation, and on a success get a hint straight from the DM on how to solve the predicament.


Keep Your Cool (Charisma Saving Throws)

More common Charisma saves can be a bit tricky, because Charisma is a measure of your character's force of personality. Their ability to project confidence and assuredness even when the world is turning to crap around them. Whether these are made in a wider crisis or a far more personal one is going to vary widely, Charisma saves are what happen when roleplaying meets game mechanics. The paladin might be immune to Dragonfear, but if the entire town is sent into a panic attack by it, he might need to make a Charisma save to keep his cool anyway. On the other hand, insults, betrayal, and poking at character flaws might normally be roleplaying opportunities, but when they happen during a pitched battle or during a critical ability check, then they can have an impact on the dice and the Charisma saves need to be rolled to avoid the potential penalties.
Rule of Thumb: If whatever roleplaying flavor is happening isn't enough to affect the dice, or dice aren't being rolled otherwise, then it doesn't need a Charisma save.

Handy Suggestion Guide to Charisma Save DC:
Friendly Insult: DC 5
Funny Joke: DC 10
Bad Situation Gets Worse: DC 15
Character Flaw: DC 20
Betrayal: DC 25
Berserk Button: DC 30

[Xihirli]

I really liked the first two, I feel like the Charisma section takes away from player agency.
I think I'll be incorporating the Intelligence and Strength saves into a one-shot I run soon, though.

[Crisis21]

Looking back, I agree with you on the player agency issue. However, that leaves me with the conundrum of how to expand upon Charisma saves. To my understanding, they are among the least-used saving throw in the game, much like Intelligence saving throws, even if the effects they guard against are pretty hefty.

Edit: Actually, what about using Charisma saves for a simplified morale system? Where every now and then, something that happens through roleplaying is judged to be of a severe enough nature to temporarily demoralize a character to the point they suffer a mechanical disadvantage (i.e. impose disadvantage on certain d20 rolls or prevent concentration), the character could make a Charisma saving throw to negate this effect.

For example, an insult to your rogue wouldn't be enough to affect them, but an insult while they're in the middle of trying to pick a booby-trapped lock might be enough to distract them from the delicate task and negatively affect their roll.

[InkisRatticus]

Stealing concept for home game. Thank you very much.

[Mith]

Looking back, I agree with you on the player agency issue. However, that leaves me with the conundrum of how to expand upon Charisma saves. To my understanding, they are among the least-used saving throw in the game, much like Intelligence saving throws, even if the effects they guard against are pretty hefty.

Edit: Actually, what about using Charisma saves for a simplified morale system? Where every now and then, something that happens through roleplaying is judged to be of a severe enough nature to temporarily demoralize a character to the point they suffer a mechanical disadvantage (i.e. impose disadvantage on certain d20 rolls or prevent concentration), the character could make a Charisma saving throw to negate this effect.

For example, an insult to your rogue wouldn't be enough to affect them, but an insult while they're in the middle of trying to pick a booby-trapped lock might be enough to distract them from the delicate task and negatively affect their roll.

I would likely make this a "flinch" mechanic. And this is one where I would be tempted to have everyone add proficency or something that auto scaled with level to represent experience.

[Durazno]

Depending on how it goes in playtesting, you might find yourself making the window for the "second chance" intelligence save a little smaller. A whole quarter of the die feels like it might be too big for the feel of "missed it by that much!"

[Crisis21]

Depending on how it goes in playtesting, you might find yourself making the window for the "second chance" intelligence save a little smaller. A whole quarter of the die feels like it might be too big for the feel of "missed it by that much!"

Quite possibly. 4 or 3 might work better for balance issues.

[Crisis21]

I would likely make this a "flinch" mechanic. And this is one where I would be tempted to have everyone add proficency or something that auto scaled with level to represent experience.

This sounds promising. Charisma saves to control involuntary reactions (i.e. flinching, laughter, etc.) when they would prove disadvantageous.

If you're going to scale proficiency in saves a character is not proficiency in, I'd suggest something similar to the Jack of All Trades class feature of the Bard, where not having proficiency means you can use half your proficiency bonus rounded down. Or maybe a third.

[Mith]

Quite possibly. 4 or 3 might work better for balance issues.


This sounds promising. Charisma saves to control involuntary reactions (i.e. flinching, laughter, etc.) when they would prove disadvantageous.

If you're going to scale proficiency in saves a character is not proficiency in, I'd suggest something similar to the Jack of All Trades class feature of the Bard, where not having proficiency means you can use half your proficiency bonus rounded down. Or maybe a third.

What about combining these two as "half proficency if not proficient" to saves?

[Crisis21]

What about combining these two as "half proficency if not proficient" to saves?
Half proficiency to saves a character is not proficienct in sounds like a house rule to me. Do it if it feels right for your campaign.

[Mith]

Half proficiency to saves a character is not proficienct in sounds like a house rule to me. Do it if it feels right for your campaign.

I only suggest that since you have a quarter of the range being seen as too much from earlier posts, that half proficency would work better.

[Angelalex242]

Wizards LOVE that new Int Save mechanic.

[Crisis21]

Wizards LOVE that new Int Save mechanic.

I'm sure they do. But honestly, I feel players should be enticed into playing a smart character rather than turned away from it by game mechanics. Too many classes outside of Wizard just don't have much incentive to put anything into their INT scores with the rules as they are. Intelligence should provide just a bit more than a spellcasting stat, a skill buff, or a way to spot illusions for adventurers. Correcting the odd mistake and the occasional flash of brilliance (or common sense depending on the situation) isn't really that big of a deal in my view.

Besides, DM hints are up to the DM. They may not always point to the most lucrative solution to a predicament, just a solution to a predicament. And if players start relying on them too much, I would personally encourage DMs to either start giving them disadvantage on the saving throw or possibly withhold rewards for good roleplaying.

[Argothair]

Strength:

I'm not sure how your strength saving throws are different from the ones we would already see in a standard game. I do like your mechanics for how to adjust the difficulty check, but you're keeping the essential concept: can you remain standing while something is trying to knock you prone? That's not really an expansion; you're just re-stating the standard rule. I'd like to see strength saving throws for flipping tables, uprooting trees, bending metal, and other feats of athleticism. Could also be used to avoid being swept away by a current of wind or water.

Intelligence:

I like your "get a hint" mechanic just fine. I think the "fix a mistake" is better off letting you fix an *ally's* mistake. If you yourself are failing an intelligence roll, well, that's because your intelligence is too low. It feels un-thematic to get a second chance at rolling against INT. Nobody else routinely gets a second chance on their skill checks or spell rolls; it's not clear that INT users should either, even if INT does need some more love. So, if your buddy says something stupid, maybe you can roll an INT saving throw to come up with a graceful correction. E.g., "Oh, NO, Your Majesty, my esteemed colleague here didn't mean to make a crude reference to the Royal Bosom. He was merely admiring the eloquent hooting noise made by the snowy white owl in your aviary. My friend Thog here has always had a fondness for owls, cockateels, doves, and other hooters. Isn't that right, Thog? [elbows Thog in the side, hard]"

Charisma:

I actually like your original 'keep your cool' concept just fine, although there's nothing wrong with expanding it from insults to other types of distractions. If you like you can limit it to insults that prey on a the flaws and bonds that are explicitly called out on a character sheet -- e.g. the character is deeply attached to a particular violin, and an NPC calls it a crusty old fiddle, or the character is still in love with a childhood sweetheart, and an NPC calls her a moron. That preserves a bit of player control because the player can choose what flaws to have.

[Ixidor92]

I think the "fix a mistake" is better off letting you fix an *ally's* mistake. If you yourself are failing an intelligence roll, well, that's because your intelligence is too low. It feels un-thematic to get a second chance at rolling against INT. Nobody else routinely gets a second chance on their skill checks or spell rolls; it's not clear that INT users should either, even if INT does need some more love. So, if your buddy says something stupid, maybe you can roll an INT saving throw to come up with a graceful correction. E.g., "Oh, NO, Your Majesty, my esteemed colleague here didn't mean to make a crude reference to the Royal Bosom. He was merely admiring the eloquent hooting noise made by the snowy white owl in your aviary. My friend Thog here has always had a fondness for owls, cockateels, doves, and other hooters. Isn't that right, Thog? [elbows Thog in the side, hard]"

Was showing this thread to a friend and we both liked this interpretation better than the initial one. For one, it avoids the possible problem of every wizard and Rogue essentially lowering the DC of any skill check they make by 3, since they both have proficiency in intelligence saving throws. For two, since the player making the save needs to be in a position to help the failing player, it both opens up roleplay opportunities and encourages the party to work together.

[Crisis21]

I kind of like this feedback, but I still also like the original concept, so here is how I'll do it. In cases of where the correction is immediate, then it will fall on an ally to make the save using their Reaction, essentially 'catching' the mistake before it actually happens. However, in cases on a task that takes time, such as putting on a thorough disguise or crafting an alchemical mixture, then the character can attempt to salvage their own mistake at the cost of the task taking more time.

So it would look like this:


When an ally of yours within range of the Help action fails a skill or tool check by 3 or less, you can use your Reaction to make an Intelligence saving throw at the original DC of the roll they failed to assist them and prevent the mistake before it happens. If you succeed, they are considered to have just barely met the DC of their roll. Only one ally may make an Intelligence saving throw to aid another per round.
Note: It is up to the DM whether you need to be within 5 ft. of the ally you are assisting or not.

When you fail a skill or tool check you have proficiency in on a task that takes at least 10 minutes to perform by 3 or less on the DC, you may make an Intelligence saving throw at the original DC to attempt to correct and salvage your mistake. If you succeed on the saving throw, you are considered to have just barely met the DC of your original roll. Whether you succeed or fail on the saving throw, the task itself takes (1d5*10)% longer than it otherwise would have.


As for Charisma saves... How about this?

More common Charisma saves can be a bit tricky, because Charisma is a measure of your character's force of personality. Their ability to project confidence and assuredness even when the world is turning to crap around them. Whether these are made in a wider crisis or a far more personal one is going to vary widely, Charisma saves are what happen when roleplaying meets game mechanics. The paladin might be immune to Dragonfear, but if the entire town is sent into a panic attack by it, he might need to make a Charisma save to keep his cool anyway. On the other hand, insults, betrayal, and poking at character flaws might normally be roleplaying opportunities, but when they happen during a pitched battle or during a critical ability check, then they can have an impact on the dice and the Charisma saves need to be rolled to avoid the potential penalties.
Rule of Thumb: If whatever roleplaying flavor is happening isn't enough to affect the dice, or dice aren't being rolled otherwise, then it doesn't need a Charisma save.

Friendly Insult: DC 5
Funny Joke: DC 10
Bad Situation Gets Worse: DC 15
Character Flaw: DC 20
Betrayal: DC 25
Berserk Button: DC 30