Convince me to multiclass (Champion Fighter)

[Vox Silentii]

So i'm playing as a Variant Human Champion Fighter lvl 5 and we just hit lvl 6 at the end of the last session and iðve been playing around with the idea to multiclass, but it honestly scares me.

i feel like if i multiclass i'm gonna get left behind for maybe 2-4 levels and not enjoy the late game as much as the rest.

But i've never multiclassed before, so this will be new for me.

I'm playing as a champion fighter, in heavy armor and mostly just trying to take the frontline for the party.
(the party being a warlock,sorcerer,rogue and eldritch knight)
I'm using a greatsword because i wanted to play a two-handed guy, so shields and "small weapons" don't really interest my guy.

I have The Two-Handed Weapon Fighter style and the Two-Handed Weapon Master Feat. So that pretty much my bread and butter.

I was looking into barbarian multiclassing and thought that if i did any multiclassing it would probably be that.
But i thought that it would be hard since not wearing armor will hinder me and in a way since it would lower my ac quite a bit.

Race: Variant Human
(taking Two-Handed Weapon Master at 1st level)

My score is
str: 20
dex: 15
con: 16
wis:12
int:12
cha: 13
(rolled and got pretty good rolls)

So let me know what you think.

Should i continue with the fighter or should i go some other route?

Any advice and suggestions are welcome.

(Plus, i think i made a blood pact with Lolth in the last session, so the future is gonna be fun for me.
(but i got an extra 1d4 EVERYTIME i heal or get healed which is nice))

[DeTess]

What do you want your character to do? Most people don't multiclass because they feel like it, but because another class gives their character something new to do that they want, so what do you want to do?

Also, what level do you expect to reach? I could tell you that taking the rest of your levels in divine soul sorcerer will give you permanent flight once you've reached level 20, but if your game will only go to level 10, that's pretty crappy advice.

[Malifice]

Id stick with fighter, but you cant go wrong with barbarian.

Your AC will be a whole 1 point lower in Half Plate (15+2 from dex) than it is in Full plate, and you can Rage and do everything else in Half plate seeing as its medium armor.

[Sigreid]

Honestly, if you're enjoying the character and your role in the party I wouldn't. A general rule I follow is not to multiclass unless I know what I'm giving up, what I'm getting and why I want what I'm getting.

Instead I would consider using 1 or 2 of your ASI to get a versatility feat such as Alert, Skilled, Prodigy, etc.

[Waterdeep Merch]

There's nothing wrong with keeping it simple and sticking with fighter. You get lots of ASI/feats, and you can craft a great character with just those. That said, you've totally got the dex to work medium armor if you go barbarian, and work it well!

"Half-plate", the best medium armor defense-wise, is kind of a weird term, but can essentially let you envision yourself as pretty much looking the same for only -1 AC. And if you ever get medium armor master and a +1 Dex at some point, you can make half-plate grant the same AC bonus as full plate, on top of getting rid of stealth disadvantage. At a natural +3 dexterity, this could prove invaluable for setting up surprise attacks.

Barbarian is a natural choice for champion great weapon fighters thanks to reckless attacks. They let you attack with advantage at the cost of letting enemies attack you with advantage. This is usually a good trade, as it makes you more likely to land those nasty -5/+10 hits, and your expanded critical range makes the likelihood of getting those devastating blows off even better. Just remember to rage before doing this in front of dangerous foes, since the resistance to physical damage will help soften the blows you'll invariably take in trade. As a plus, enemies will be even more likely to target you if you make it easier on them to do so, which in turn makes you that much better at tanking!

As a neat side benefit, if you decide against medium armor master, your already high constitution and dexterity might eclipse the need for armor at all. You'll already be at a 15 AC naked. Every even number increase you throw into constitution or dexterity will push that up, to a possible maximum of 20 AC- two points higher than full plate!

[Vox Silentii]

What do you want your character to do? Most people don't multiclass because they feel like it, but because another class gives their character something new to do that they want, so what do you want to do?

Also, what level do you expect to reach? I could tell you that taking the rest of your levels in divine soul sorcerer will give you permanent flight once you've reached level 20, but if your game will only go to level 10, that's pretty crappy advice.

I'm hoping to reach 20 if the DM feels like it, but i think it would probably burn out at around the 10-15 lvl mark.

[Vox Silentii]

There's nothing wrong with keeping it simple and sticking with fighter. You get lots of ASI/feats, and you can craft a great character with just those. That said, you've totally got the dex to work medium armor if you go barbarian, and work it well!

"Half-plate", the best medium armor defense-wise, is kind of a weird term, but can essentially let you envision yourself as pretty much looking the same for only -1 AC. And if you ever get medium armor master and a +1 Dex at some point, you can make half-plate grant the same AC bonus as full plate, on top of getting rid of stealth disadvantage. At a natural +3 dexterity, this could prove invaluable for setting up surprise attacks.

Seeing as i'm only wearing splint (17AC) heavy armor, then the medium one sounds more like my cup of tea. I've always envisioned him as Rugged Garen (http://www.leagueofpapers.com/sites/default/files/styles/iphone/public/Rugged-Garen-Splash-Art-league_of_papers.jpg?itok=ZwdCbNa5) in a sense that he's wearing plate but not all over his body.

Barbarian is a natural choice for champion great weapon fighters thanks to reckless attacks. They let you attack with advantage at the cost of letting enemies attack you with advantage. This is usually a good trade, as it makes you more likely to land those nasty -5/+10 hits, and your expanded critical range makes the likelihood of getting those devastating blows off even better. Just remember to rage before doing this in front of dangerous foes, since the resistance to physical damage will help soften the blows you'll invariably take in trade. As a plus, enemies will be even more likely to target you if you make it easier on them to do so, which in turn makes you that much better at tanking!

As a neat side benefit, if you decide against medium armor master, your already high constitution and dexterity might eclipse the need for armor at all. You'll already be at a 15 AC naked. Every even number increase you throw into constitution or dexterity will push that up, to a possible maximum of 20 AC- two points higher than full plate!

This actually does sound kinda sweet, but to reach that 20 AC i gotta get 20 in both con and dex right? That's a whole lot of ASI.


This was great advice!!

[thoroughlyS]

So i'm playing as a Variant Human Champion Fighter lvl 5 and we just hit lvl 6 at the end of the last session and iðve been playing around with the idea to multiclass, but it honestly scares me.

i feel like if i multiclass i'm gonna get left behind for maybe 2-4 levels and not enjoy the late game as much as the rest.

But i've never multiclassed before, so this will be new for me.
In my opinion, you shouldn't be looking too far ahead when thinking about your build, because you'll often pass up more interesting options in favor of something you might never get. I think about my builds one or two levels ahead at a time, three if I'm starting to multiclass (for subclass pick). The sole exception to this is looking at 5th level, when characters advance tiers. You already reached this milestone, and gained Extra Attack on-time for a martial character.

I'm playing as a champion fighter, in heavy armor and mostly just trying to take the frontline for the party.
(the party being a warlock,sorcerer,rogue and eldritch knight)
I'm using a greatsword because i wanted to play a two-handed guy, so shields and "small weapons" don't really interest my guy.

I have The Two-Handed Weapon Fighter style and the Two-Handed Weapon Master Feat. So that pretty much my bread and butter.
I've seen multiclassing used for two main purposes: either making you better at what you already do (e.g. going sorcadin or warladin for more smites), or diversifying your capabilities (e.g. dipping into warlock for some fast magic)

I was looking into barbarian multiclassing and thought that if i did any multiclassing it would probably be that.
But i thought that it would be hard since not wearing armor will hinder me and in a way since it would lower my ac quite a bit.
Going into barbarian is very common, Rage adds to damage and survivability, and Reckless Attack can help you trigger more crits. One thing to note is that you aren't forced to be completely unarmored if you go barbarian. There are only three barbarian features which mention armor at all: Unarmored Defense gives you an alternative AC calculation, and Rage and Fast Movement work in anything up to medium. So for your character, you could switch to scale mail (or breastplate if you have the cash) and end up with a 16 AC. That is 2 points of AC at most, if you somehow already had plate.

Should i continue with the fighter or should i go some other route?
I would take another level of fighter for the ASI, and then start multiclassing. Barbarian is perfectly reasonable, but I could also see going:

Cleric - War Domain gets you an extra hit every now and again, and gives you versatile spell selection.
Druid - Circle of the Moon means you could turn into an Ape with a greatsword, some decent wild shape forms, and gives you versatile spell selection.
Paladin - Smites for offense, and auras for support.

(cleric and druid require you to up your WIS to 13).

(Plus, i think i made a blood pact with Lolth in the last session, so the future is gonna be fun for me.
(but i got an extra 1d4 EVERYTIME i heal or get healed which is nice))
This gives you a decent reason to also go warlock. You'd get some fast spells and some invocations.

[Specter]

The only worthwhile multiclass would be Barbarian or Warlock.

Barbarian gives you Rage (ten times better than 1AC), and Reckless Attack at level 2 to make sure your attacks hit. From there, either take level 3 for primal path stuff or not.

Warlock gives you Hex for 1d6 extra damage in attacks, which is great for Champions. Fiend gives you Healing every time you kill dudes. Level 2 optional for another slot and invocations.

[Vogie]

With those current stats, Paladin would be the most obvious... however, it doesn't really "turn on" until you have 2-3 levels in it, unless the Divine Sense and Lay on Hands abilities are what you want. It could also fall under a "champion of Lolth", if you add an oath to that bloodpact you made. It'll also allow you to pick up a second fighting style.

Sorcerer has a decent blend of 1-level dips. Shadow Sorcerer will give you darkvision and make you hard to kill. Divine Soul will give you a micro-luck and access to both arcane and divine magic.

However, I would suggest 1 level dip in Warlock. Lolth is a part of the drow pantheon, so Archfey seems to be the obvious one.

However, I would suggest asking your DM if you can use the Raven Queen... but then refluff as Lolth, and the Sentinel Raven bonus is instead a Sentinel Spider. It'll act as a faux-miliar in combat, can scout ahead of you through dungeons & castles, and give a bonus when it's perched on your shoulder. Either way, you can also go a second level in to get some very flavorful invocations, or avoid it completely.

[danpit2991]

So i'm playing as a Variant Human Champion Fighter lvl 5 and we just hit lvl 6 at the end of the last session and iðve been playing around with the idea to multiclass, but it honestly scares me.

i feel like if i multiclass i'm gonna get left behind for maybe 2-4 levels and not enjoy the late game as much as the rest.

But i've never multiclassed before, so this will be new for me.

I'm playing as a champion fighter, in heavy armor and mostly just trying to take the frontline for the party.
(the party being a warlock,sorcerer,rogue and eldritch knight)
I'm using a greatsword because i wanted to play a two-handed guy, so shields and "small weapons" don't really interest my guy.

I have The Two-Handed Weapon Fighter style and the Two-Handed Weapon Master Feat. So that pretty much my bread and butter.

I was looking into barbarian multiclassing and thought that if i did any multiclassing it would probably be that.
But i thought that it would be hard since not wearing armor will hinder me and in a way since it would lower my ac quite a bit.

Race: Variant Human
(taking Two-Handed Weapon Master at 1st level)

My score is
str: 20
dex: 15
con: 16
wis:12
int:12
cha: 13
(rolled and got pretty good rolls)

So let me know what you think.

Should i continue with the fighter or should i go some other route?

Any advice and suggestions are welcome.

(Plus, i think i made a blood pact with Lolth in the last session, so the future is gonna be fun for me.
(but i got an extra 1d4 EVERYTIME i heal or get healed which is nice))


Straight champion is a good choice, but a small dip in warlock not only fits your RP with the loth thing you have going on it will give you arguably the best ranged cantrip in the game for those time you just cant get close, and a 2 level dip will get you 2 cantrips, 3 known spells ( hex,arms of hadar,armor of agathys are perfect for melee) ,2 short rest spell slots and 2 invocations, as a human i would take devil sight and since you have a 13 in cha the plus 1 from antagonizing blast might not be worth an invocation so thats up to your style of play. and dont forget a 2 level dip still lets you get the champion capstone

[Chugger]

Consider sticking w/ fighter til lvl 11 at least to get that extra extra attack.

If you go to 12 you'll get another asi.

MCing can bring in wonderful benefits but, as you've noticed, sets you back. It usually messes up getting an ASI for starters. A dip into most things gets you fewer hit points. A lot of things you get from an MC you can also get from a feat.

Do you want an advantaged attack roll once a turn? Get Magic Init and voila - magic owl (familiar with flyby and the ability to help you).

But you have to qualify for M I - which could be a prob.

Only MC if your vision for your character and how you roleplay him demands it - or if it grants you a power you craze. A common reason to MC is to say go lock and get the invocation Devils Site and then get the ability to cast Darkness - now you can fight most things at advantage while most things have a disad to hit you, if they can even target you. MC's that make sense is getting 2 pal lvls to divine smite - if - you have the spell slots to fuel it - and so on.

[KorvinStarmast]

Suggestion: Get the ASI at 6 before you do anything else, and either pick a fear or boost stats.

After that, if you believe you'll get to higher levels, the next extra attack is at 11 and if you want more versatility I'd agree with the Paladin suggestion.

[bid]

I'm hoping to reach 20 if the DM feels like it, but i think it would probably burn out at around the 10-15 lvl mark.
I'll second Chugger on champion 11. You won't do better with another MC until those levels.

Now, if you go for RP concept... you can play the other pillars much better with tomelock if Lolth takes you in.

[Strangways]

I've never leveled a fighter up to 11, but if I were leveling a fighter now, I'd be very reluctant to tolerate any delay in getting to level 11 for that sweet 3 attacks per action. With 3 attacks per action and your improved crit range, you'll be a beast at melee range. I don't see any compelling reason to delay that by multiclassing. Fighter is a very solid class all on its own.

[Easy_Lee]

Three levels in Barbarian (totem) will give you free advantage when you want it, resistance to damage and extra damage while raging, more hit points, a totem feature, and some additional barbarian features. In exchange for this, you lose 1 AC and delay your fighter progression. However, the free advantage pairs particularly well with a GWM Champion - far more crits and safe usage of GWM.

In short, a barbarian dip will make you less fighter-like but will significantly increase your damage and durability. That may or may not be what you want from your character.

[djreynolds]

Human prodigy feat can get expertise in 1 skill.

Rogue can get you 2 skills with expertise.
Having expertise in perception is very nice.
Having expertise in athletics, makes it easier to shove the enemy prone.... if you are willing to give up an attack.

2 levels of paladin and you could snag the bless spell and have a smite hanging around for when score a crit.

But I like barbarian, 2 levels for reckless attack is worth it.

[Tanarii]

This was great advice!!
If you're going to go to Barbarian for 2-4 levels and use Half-plate, consider taking level 6 Fighter first and getting Medium Armor Mastery with the Fighter ASI. Only immediate benefit will be a sudden jump in your Stealth, but it sets you up for Barbarian without having to wait for the Feat.

[Specter]

If you're going to go to Barbarian for 2-4 levels and use Half-plate, consider taking level 6 Fighter first and getting Medium Armor Mastery with the Fighter ASI. Only immediate benefit will be a sudden jump in your Stealth, but it sets you up for Barbarian without having to wait for the Feat.

Personally I wouldn't do that. If you boost CON to 18 with the same ASI, you'd have 16AC naked, but you'd also have more hit points and a better CON save, which is what you want with Rage. Going reckless means AC won't be very important anyway.

[mephnick]

I'd stay single-classed. Everyone keeps mentioning Reckless Attack..but you're dual-wielding so it's not nearly as good as if you were actually a GWM.

[Specter]

I'd stay single-classed. Everyone keeps mentioning Reckless Attack..but you're dual-wielding so it's not nearly as good as if you were actually a GWM.

Uhm, he is using a greatsword.

[Mjolnirbear]

You're playing the most boring archetype of the most boring class in this edition. I hardly feel I need do any convincing at all.



(Yes, obviously not everyone finds non-spellcasters boring, or else every class would be a spellcaster. I stand by my comment ;) )

[Waazraath]

"Convince me to multiclass"

No I won't, if you need convincing, it seems you're happy with it as it is. Champion Fighter is fine, power wise. If you want more options (out of combat or in combat) spend some feats on it, you have plenty as a fighter.

[MrStabby]

I would vote warlock for two levels. There is power there, for sure. Two spells per short rest, a level one ability and two invocations is good enough.

The RP element is nice - the pact with Lolth would mesh beautifully.

The big thing though is fun and richness of experience. Champion is a simple to play class. Keep attacking each turn and you cover most eventualities. Adding a class that brings more options, a broader range of abilities on top of a solid core is nice.

After two levels you can go back to champion for AS I, more warlock for level 2 spells and a pact or even take another class.

[ImproperJustice]

We are playing with two Champions in our group. My advice would be to stick with it. Champion seems to shine in later levels when you mix the crit range, dual fighting styles and multi attacks together.

I think getting access to ASIs on time helps.
Resilient Wisdom and Tougn combined with that hp regen capstone makes for a fierce and resilient warrior.

[Easy_Lee]

We are playing with two Champions in our group. My advice would be to stick with it. Champion seems to shine in later levels when you mix the crit range, dual fighting styles and multi attacks together.

I think getting access to ASIs on time helps.
Resilient Wisdom and Tougn combined with that hp regen capstone makes for a fierce and resilient warrior.

Mathematically, a strength-based Champion who doesn't otherwise have a consistent source of advantage will benefit (in damage) from two or three levels of barbarian more than the lost levels of fighter. But there are other things that a pure champion can do better depending on the level.

[mephnick]

Uhm, he is using a greatsword.

Oh I read Two-weapon not Two-handed. Disregard!

[Crgaston]

Sticking with Champion isn’t a bad idea. You’ve gotten mostly good advice so far, but I’m going to chime in with my 2cp anyway.
A 2 level dip in Rogue for the extra skill, Expertise (Athletics and Perception) and the Cunning Action isn’t a bad idea even on a heavily armored melee character. CA is like a mini Action Surge every round for the movement/disengage abilities.

In your particular case, though, a 2 level Warlock dip sounds amazing. Lolth would work for either Fiend or Fey patrons depending on which fluff you wanted.

Take Mage Hand for the Jedi Master flavor (or alternately, Shocking Grasp for advantage on armored foes and a free disengage, or Create Bonfire... It’s a Dex Save spell so there’s no penalty for casting it on someone you’re in melee with and they either have to soak the damage or move, which might provoke an OA). The EB will scale with your character level and give you a ranged force attack that you don’t have to worry about switching weapons/tracking ammo with. You could get this with just one level, but 2 levels would get you Invocations like Devils Sight if you’re feeling the lack of darkvision, and/or Repelling Blast/Grasp of Hadar for forced movement.

As for spells, Fey would give you access to Faerie Fire which would give you AND your allies advantage on multiple opponents without them having advantage on you like Reckless Attack gives. For Fiend Patron, Command stands out, and both give access to Protection from Evil and Good which can help bolster your Wis saves.

I’m going to break with consensus and say don’t wait until after 11. The higher you go with a Champion, the harder it stings to MC, plus the sooner you get your dip in, the longer you have to enjoy your extra powers. I’d say go for it at CL 7. Bump your Cha at 6. Or heck, just go for it after Fighter 5. That way you’d have a ASI to look forward to after you get all your shiny new powers.

Delaying that 3rd Attack sucks, but your EB would still scale at CL 11 so you could be applying up to 30’ of forced movement vs one foe or 10’ each vs 3 AND giving your party advantage twice per short rest.

[2D8HP]

I've had fun playing a single class Champion, I've also had fun playing a Rogue, a Fighter/Rogue, a Barbarian/Fighter, and a Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue, you may as well.

I think Swashbuckler is my favorite subclass, but a non-Swashbuckler Rogue is best if there's a dang fool helpful comrade who will stand next to the foe so you may Sneak Attack them.

I found single-class Barbarian the least fun, but it's still better than no D&D!

[ImproperJustice]

Mathematically, a strength-based Champion who doesn't otherwise have a consistent source of advantage will benefit (in damage) from two or three levels of barbarian more than the lost levels of fighter. But there are other things that a pure champion can do better depending on the level.

You are probably right.
But mathematically a 20th level Champion can solo 500 Hobgoblins :)
(There was a thread on this some time back)

Although if you snag that Champion Capstone at 17, it may be worth the lost attack and asi to get the Barbarian Rage.

[Tanarii]

Personally I wouldn't do that. If you boost CON to 18 with the same ASI, you'd have 16AC naked, but you'd also have more hit points and a better CON save, which is what you want with Rage. Going reckless means AC won't be very important anyway.Getting Medium Armor Mastery first was in relation to specific advice already given, which was recommended to avoid the AC drop from Plate (AC 18) to Half-Plate (AC 17) by getting MAM. Going down to AC 16 wouldn't address the OP's specific concern, it would exacerbate it. So ... if going with MAM to counteract the AC drop, it might be better to consider going Fighter 6 --> Barbarian (probably 3 or 4).

That's not to say I think your point on using reckless making you fairly easy to hit, and the general value of Con, isn't a good one.

[GlenSmash!]

I've found Barbarians greatly benefit from 2 levels of fighter to get Action Surge, and Fighters greatly benefit from 2 levels of Barbarian for Reckless Attack.

They are like chocolate and peanut butter (or whatever food analogy you prefer) great on their own, but a little bit better together.

I especially like Reckless attack + Improved Critical as a combination with both working together to get you a critical hit.

[Estoma]

Hi there!

I think mumticlassing as a rouge can be very handy. I played a half-orc champion fighter, and with the ‘expertise’ granted by a rouge level could add 11 to two of my proficiencies right off the bat (athletics, perception, and those came very much in handy when throwing allies across a river of lava). Also, ‘sneak attack’ isn’t bad to have an extra 1d6 damage, though you need to level up rouge to get higher than a d6. I thought this was a good feature as there was usually an ally working five feet of the enemy but it’s usefullness depends on how your party arrays itself for a fight. But honestly, I think one rogue level is worth it for the expertise alone!

[Vox Silentii]

oh wow, i loved the ideas that people are throwing in there and there are a lot of great ones.

Warlock would fit beautifully with the whole lolth thing and paladin too

But one thing i did not realize is that i forgot to mention that my character does not use magic, he looks down on magic users and those who use it in any way.

So i decided that i'm gonna take two levels of barb for reckless before i go into fighter 6 and finishing things up in fighter for the capstone there.

I know it would probably be better if i went fighter 6 first for the ASI, but it wouldn't fit story wise.

Lore wise i'm gonna have my rage acting like a blessing from Lolth. I go cold, brutal and carefree.
A psychopath by many distinctions. All i want is to slaughter my enemies in various non-kid friendly ways.
(with a creepy smile on my face (maybe not, i'm not 100% sure about that one))

My eyes go black and a spider symbol appears on my back with it's legs spreading to different parts of my body.
Protecting me and giving me power, hence the Rage resistances and things.

His main thing is and will always be his two handed sword ( and various other two handed weapons that come across his path)

But thanks everyone that help me come to this decision

Kudos

[2D8HP]

....But honestly, I think one rogue level is worth it for the expertise alone!


I agree!

And were the Rogue shines are on occasions when the PC's are not in combat.

Successful skill use is fun!

[Vox Silentii]

Just for those who are wondering.

I died last session.
got 2 success death saving throws
and 3 failed death saving throws

But i did a whole lot of dmg and did almost everything.
But the BBEG killed me.

But still thx for everything

[Crgaston]

Aw, bummer. Good luck on your next build!

[Cynthaer]

Just for those who are wondering.

I died last session.
got 2 success death saving throws
and 3 failed death saving throws

But i did a whole lot of dmg and did almost everything.
But the BBEG killed me.

But still thx for everything

Well, at least now you know why a few people said not to focus too far into the future. :)

That said:


But one thing i did not realize is that i forgot to mention that my character does not use magic, he looks down on magic users and those who use it in any way.

So i decided that i'm gonna take two levels of barb for reckless before i go into fighter 6 and finishing things up in fighter for the capstone there.

I know it would probably be better if i went fighter 6 first for the ASI, but it wouldn't fit story wise.

Lore wise i'm gonna have my rage acting like a blessing from Lolth. I go cold, brutal and carefree.
A psychopath by many distinctions. All i want is to slaughter my enemies in various non-kid friendly ways.
(with a creepy smile on my face (maybe not, i'm not 100% sure about that one))

My eyes go black and a spider symbol appears on my back with it's legs spreading to different parts of my body.
Protecting me and giving me power, hence the Rage resistances and things.

Taking a specific second class to represent an actual, in-game event rather than bland numerical optimization is quite possibly the best reason to multiclass. Keep up the role-playing ethos; it's easy to get distracted by the opportunity cost of not optimizing, but it's so much fun!