What happened to the Giant's comment compilation thread? Was there a forum wipe?

[ThatNickGuy]

I'll be honest. I don't frequent the forum very often. But once in awhile, I liked coming here to see if Rich made any new comments. Along with the excellent commentaries in the books, I love reading his internal process for the comic. It's extraordinary the amount of consideration he puts into developing the characters, world, and story.

After a recent discussion with a friend about the art change for the sixth book, I wanted to re-read his explanation for said art change. But I don't see the thread that compiled his comments. In fact, I see most of the threads gone.

Did I miss a forum wipe? Or maybe I'm missing something in my settings?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'll be honest. I don't frequent the forum very often. But once in awhile, I liked coming here to see if Rich made any new comments. Along with the excellent commentaries in the books, I love reading his internal process for the comic. It's extraordinary the amount of consideration he puts into developing the characters, world, and story.

After a recent discussion with a friend about the art change for the sixth book, I wanted to re-read his explanation for said art change. But I don't see the thread that compiled his comments. In fact, I see most of the threads gone.

Did I miss a forum wipe? Or maybe I'm missing something in my settings?

It's still here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479555-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VOn-a-Saner-Forum-We-Wouldn-t-Need-this-Index). The forum doesn't openly display threads past the necromancy threshold, and Rich has withdrawn from forum general discussion, so he has said nothing quotable in some time.

GW

[ThatNickGuy]

It's still here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479555-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VOn-a-Saner-Forum-We-Wouldn-t-Need-this-Index). The forum doesn't openly display threads past the necromancy threshold, and Rich has withdrawn from forum general discussion, so he has said nothing quotable in some time.

GW

Thank you, I appreciate it. I figured it was still around here somewhere. And yeah, I did notice he doesn't discuss things as much. After some of the less-than-savory comments he's had to deal with, I can't honestly blame him. Thanks again.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thank you, I appreciate it. I figured it was still around here somewhere. And yeah, I did notice he doesn't discuss things as much. After some of the less-than-savory comments he's had to deal with, I can't honestly blame him. Thanks again.

NP. FYI, while you can find the thread via the search system, I usually just find a post by Jasdoif and follow the link in their sig block.

GW

[Jasdoif]

The forum doesn't openly display threads past the necromancy threshold, and Rich has withdrawn from forum general discussion, so he has said nothing quotable in some time.Specifically, the last quote addition happened last year in March; which was the only new quote since the two added in July the year before that.

Perhaps the Giant will resume reading the forum once the Kickstarter rewards are caught up with. Perhaps not. Either way, it's not like I have anything better to do than keep track of it when/if quotes come up :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

Specifically, the last quote addition happened last year in March; which was the only new quote since the two added in July the year before that.

Perhaps the Giant will resume reading the forum once the Kickstarter rewards are caught up with. Perhaps not. Either way, it's not like I have anything better to do than keep track of it when/if quotes come up :smalltongue:
Probably and hopefully not. Fans aren't worth interacting with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Probably and hopefully not. Fans aren't worth interacting with.

On the contrary. Interacting with fans is an excellent way to develop a strong community that will support an author, especially when an author is starting out. Rich may be beyond the point where he hits diminishing returns or even negative opportunity cost (i.e. time spent in the forums would be better spent elsewhere), but your absolute assertion that "Fans aren't worth interacting with" (emphasis mine) is most definitely false without further qualifications.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

On the contrary. Interacting with fans is an excellent way to develop a strong community that will support an author, especially when an author is starting out. Rich may be beyond the point where he hits diminishing returns or even negative opportunity cost (i.e. time spent in the forums would be better spent elsewhere), but your absolute assertion that "Fans aren't worth interacting with" (emphasis mine) is most definitely false without further qualifications.

Grey Wolf
Worth the cost in peace of mind and the emotional cost of having to deal with generally unpleasant people.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Worth the cost in peace of mind and the emotional cost of having to deal with generally unpleasant people.

Yes, it is hard to create a community of fans. But it has to be done, and it is very much worth it (http://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/).

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, it is hard to create a community of fans. But it has to be done, and it is very much worth it (http://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/).

GW
Yes, I understand very well how milking fools like us who will "buy anything you produce[. . .] drive 200 miles to see you sing[. . .] buy the hardback and paperback and audible versions of your book[. . .] purchase your next figurine sight unseen[. . .] pay for the 'best-of' DVD version of your free youtube channel[. . . or] come to your chef's table once a month" would facilitate a reasonably comfortable life. But interacting?

Heck one of the "benefits of modern retailing" called out in the article is precisely that creators "did not have direct contact with consumers." Post-modern peer-to-peer retailing, however, does away with that benefit and returns to the old ways of groveling before consumers and especially patrons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, I understand very well how milking fools like us who will "buy anything you produce[. . .] drive 200 miles to see you sing[. . .] buy the hardback and paperback and audible versions of your book[. . .] purchase your next figurine sight unseen[. . .] pay for the 'best-of' DVD version of your free youtube channel[. . . or] come to your chef's table once a month" would facilitate a reasonably comfortable life. But interacting?

Interacting creates said fools. It is much easier to be a patron of a person that feels like a human being than a person that never bothers to interact with anyone with anything other than their work. And it is easier to come across as a genuine human being if you interact with your fans, no matter what headache that might be.

GW

[zimmerwald1915]

Interacting creates said fools. It is much easier to be a patron of a person that feels like a human being than a person that never bothers to interact with anyone with anything other than their work. And it is easier to come across as a genuine human being if you interact with your fans, no matter what headache that might be.

GW
Managing to restrain yourself from giving your fans the verbal drubbing they deserve for being fannish is hardly "genuine" behavior. And the work can speak for itself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Managing to restrain yourself from giving your fans the verbal drubbing they deserve for being fannish is hardly "genuine" behavior. And the work can speak for itself.

Yo u believe every fan deserves a drubbing?

Well, that tells me everything I need to know about you. Good bye.

GW

[Finagle]

Probably and hopefully not. Fans aren't worth interacting with.

What a profoundly negative comment. Wow. Someone needs a hug.

[Kurald Galain]

Probably and hopefully not. Fans aren't worth interacting with.

I'm not nearly as famous as The Giant, but speaking as a published game designer I must say that fans are really great.

[PopeLinus1]

I'm not nearly as famous as The Giant, but speaking as a published game designer I must say that fans are really great.

I know, Right? At least I hope so, or I’m out a hobby.

[hroþila]

It's true however that many fandoms are cesspools.

[Emanick]

Speaking as a professional comedian, I can say that fans are everything from a delight to a dread.

[Keltest]

It's true however that many fandoms are cesspools.

You troll the bottoms of just about anything, and you end up pulling out a lot of the crap that hasn't been properly cleaned away. Fandoms are not unique in this regard.

[ThatNickGuy]

That's kind of the double-edged sword of being a creator. Any audience you build will inevitably have *******s or entitled fans who think they know better than you on how to write, draw, or run the business.

[hroþila]

I guess that, as the size of a fandom increases, the probability that the jerkass fans will drown everybody else out approaches 0.

[Peelee]

I guess that, as the size of a fandom increases, the probability that the jerkass fans will drown everybody else out approaches 0.

Shouldn't that be 1?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends on who screams louder.

[hroþila]

Shouldn't that be 1?
Well sure, if you want it to be, like, correct.

[Kurald Galain]

Shouldn't that be 1?

Clearly not, as numerous really huge fan communities demonstrate.

[zimmerwald1915]

Clearly not, as numerous really huge fan communities demonstrate.
Those same really huge fandoms that are hotbeds of harassment, bullying, assault, and sundry abuse?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Those same really huge fandoms that are hotbeds of harassment, bullying, assault, and sundry abuse?

No, the ones that are not.

GW

[Peelee]

Well sure, if you want it to be, like, correct.


Clearly not, as numerous really huge fan communities demonstrate.

Fine, fine. As the size of a fandom increases, the probability that the jerkass fans will drown everybody else out approaches some number between 0 and 1. Happy?

[hroþila]

It's totally a 1 though, you were right. Those utopian fandoms are probably just not large enough, I says.
(Also, not willing to enter a multi-page debate about this!)

[Peelee]

It's totally a 1 though, you were right. Those utopian fandoms are probably just not large enough, I says.
(Also, not willing to enter a multi-page debate about this!)

I was responding to your (excellent) joke with my own (not as good) joke.

[hroþila]

I was responding to your (excellent) joke with my own (not as good) joke.
I got that, no worries, and I thought your joke was good. It's just I can already see some very passionate battle lines being drawn around the topic, so I was also commenting on that.

[Porthos]

Gonna make an observation here on one particular fandom, since its in the news a bit for REASONS.

Star Wars fandom is chock full of over-entitled jerks who scream and pout and generally throw their toys out of the pram when something doesn't go precisely their way.

Star Wars fandom has vastly more people who are passionate and fun and genuinely enjoy sharing their hobby with countless millions. People who bring the joy and positivity where they go and in their discussions.

Pretty much like most, if not all, fandoms, then.

"Illegitimi non carborundum", as the saying (incorrectly) goes, in other words.

For some that means no interaction at all. For others, it means setting up well-established lanes of communication. For others, it's just picking and choosing who one interacts with.

There is no one size fits all way for creators to deal with fans, in other words. Much like there is no one size fits all way to deal with anything concerning the human condition.

[Jasdoif]

Star Wars fandom is chock full of over-entitled jerks who scream and pout and generally throw their toys out of the pram when something doesn't go precisely their way.

Star Wars fandom has vastly more people who are passionate and fun and genuinely enjoy sharing their hobby with countless millions. People who bring the joy and positivity where they go and in their discussions.

Pretty much like most, if not all, fandoms, then.

"Illegitimi non carborundum", as the saying (incorrectly) goes, in other words.Does that mean "the carbonite is not a lie"? :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

Does that mean "the carbonite is not a lie"? :smalltongue:

I believe I said "incorrectly" for a reason. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

Does that mean "the carbonite is not a lie"? :smalltongue:
It doesn't mean anything. It's semantic nonsense.

Rather like the sentiment it is supposed to express, that is, perseverance in the face of adversity.

[Porthos]

It doesn't mean anything. It's semantic nonsense.

Rather like the sentiment it is supposed to express, that is, perseverance in the face of adversity.

"Not letting the bastards grind you down" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum) is a philosophy that works for some. I would think that would make it the opposite of nonsense, myself. :smallwink:

[Peelee]

I got that, no worries, and I thought your joke was good. It's just I can already see some very passionate battle lines being drawn around the topic, so I was also commenting on that.

I am not a smart man.

[super dark33]

F A N D O M E X T I N T E N T I A L I T Y.


everything comes in eras, or waves.

One day the fandom may be in a golden age of art and culture, with fanart and fanfic and creation and praise and speculation, and it could just as easily be snuffed out, with enviorments becoming toxic as even a short absence of moderators and highly polarized rip apart the good will that used to exist, pillars of the community, artists and writers leaving to find other, fresher, communities, and zealous rabid 'fans' decide that the best thing to do is to attack the servers of either the forums or the comics.


Somtimes it can all happen in 6 or 7 years, somtimes in 2.

No fire stays lit forever, darkness comes, its inevitable.

But hey! the real fandom is the friends we made along the way.

[Lacuna Caster]

I forget his real name, but Boogie2988 did a video on this subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhkakFfVZkc&t=2m25s) fairly recently. I think he has the right of it.

I think that Rich has been in something of a bind about wanting to provoke thought and discussion on complex moral topics when he apparently dislikes reading the actual thoughts and discussions that result. (My favourite was the ruling that discussing the characters' alignments is fine, but 'is X justified' debates are not. Yeah... good luck discussing the characters' track records of moral and ethical justifications without discussing their track record of moral and ethical justifications.)

[Keltest]

I forget his real name, but Boogie2988 did a video on this subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhkakFfVZkc&t=2m25s) fairly recently. I think he has the right of it.

I think that Rich has been in something of a bind about wanting to provoke thought and discussion on complex moral topics when he apparently dislikes reading the actual thoughts and discussions that result. (My favourite was the ruling that discussing the characters' alignments is fine, but 'is X justified' debates are not. Yeah... good luck discussing the characters' track records of moral and ethical justifications without discussing their track record of moral and ethical justifications.)

As far as I'm aware, most of the banned topics on these boards are banned because they have erupted into massive flame wars, either here or in general. How Rich feels about it isn't necessarily a factor in that decision.

[Peelee]

I think that Rich has been in something of a bind about wanting to provoke thought and discussion on complex moral topics when he apparently dislikes reading the actual thoughts and discussions that result. (My favourite was the ruling that discussing the characters' alignments is fine, but 'is X justified' debates are not. Yeah... good luck discussing the characters' track records of moral and ethical justifications without discussing their track record of moral and ethical justifications.)

"Morally justified" threads often equate fictional character's actions in a fictional world's moral system to real world morality, which for some people can be difficult to separate from real-world religion and/or politics, both of which are banned topics. I see no disconnect with his artistic intentions and his desire to have a forum that doesn't need mods constantly trying to put out flame wars. And since debating the merits of it could potentially fall under "discussing how to circumvent forum rules," that's all I have to say about that.

[Lacuna Caster]

"Morally justified" threads often equate fictional character's actions in a fictional world's moral system to real world morality, which for some people can be difficult to separate from real-world religion and/or politics, both of which are banned topics...
Ah yes, that reminds me: "The only aspect of my fiction that is important is how it pertains to consequential real-life topics. Here is a list of consequential real-life topics to avoid."

I don't know if this is strictly Rich's fault per se, but given that he originally said he'd said prefer a gentle supportive community, I'm honestly at a loss as to what other effect (https://twitter.com/danieljhannan/status/836552268166086657) he was expecting his work to have on the audience.

It's a little tangential, but I was also sort of shocked when an OOTS colouring book for children came out recently. Rich is aware that his story contains, from the outset, mass murder, genocide, torture and war crimes, right? (And at least the implication of rape, though that sort of pales by comparison with the genocide and war crimes, often perpetrated by his own protagonists.) I mean, OOTS gets pretty dark, man- not just Batman the Animated Series dark, but Berserk dark. I'm pretty sure, regardless of context, Guts and Casca aren't gonna show up in a connect-the-dots any time soon.

[Emanick]

Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense that Rich wants his work to provoke discussion about important things yet bans discussion of some of the most important subjects on earth. Yet there’s no point complaining about it; it is what it is.

[Vinyadan]

Ah yes, that reminds me: "The only aspect of my fiction that is important is how it pertains to consequential real-life topics. Here is a list of consequential real-life topics to avoid."

I don't know if this is strictly Rich's fault per se, but given that he originally said he'd said prefer a gentle supportive community, I'm honestly at a loss as to what other effect (https://twitter.com/danieljhannan/status/836552268166086657) he was expecting his work to have on the audience.

It's a little tangential, but I was also sort of shocked when an OOTS colouring book for children came out recently. Rich is aware that his story contains, from the outset, mass murder, genocide, torture and war crimes, right? (And at least the implication of rape, though that sort of pales by comparison with the genocide and war crimes, often perpetrated by his own protagonists.) I mean, OOTS gets pretty dark, man- not just Batman the Animated Series dark, but Berserk dark. I'm pretty sure, regardless of context, Guts and Casca aren't gonna show up in a connect-the-dots any time soon.

https://youtu.be/pGemfKLV1JA?t=2m4s

[Hecuba]

I forget his real name, but Boogie2988 did a video on this subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhkakFfVZkc&t=2m25s) fairly recently. I think he has the right of it.

I think that Rich has been in something of a bind about wanting to provoke thought and discussion on complex moral topics when he apparently dislikes reading the actual thoughts and discussions that result. (My favourite was the ruling that discussing the characters' alignments is fine, but 'is X justified' debates are not. Yeah... good luck discussing the characters' track records of moral and ethical justifications without discussing their track record of moral and ethical justifications.)

Wanting to use one's artistic platform to make a statement about one's own beliefs on complex subjects is not the same thing as wanting to host an open discourse on the subject. Rich is no more obligated to host debates on that subject that Carrie Mae Weems is obligated to host forums on race relations because she created Magenta Colored Girl
.

[martianmister]

https://youtu.be/pGemfKLV1JA?t=2m4s

To be fair, what most kids really watch and like was the censored, TV version of the film. Same thing is also true for Police Academy series.