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Meta
2018-02-06, 04:00 PM
My gaming groups have expressed some interest in a Metroidvania inspired game. I don't imagine it would be a particularly long campaign, probably closer to a large module in size, across a couple levels of play. I've played several editions of D&D, Gamma World, Shadowrun, and Savage World, plus I've read up on a few other systems, but my knowledge base is pretty lacking. Any suggestions for a good system to suit this style of game?

exelsisxax
2018-02-06, 04:50 PM
My gaming groups have expressed some interest in a Metroidvania inspired game. I don't imagine it would be a particularly long campaign, probably closer to a large module in size, across a couple levels of play. I've played several editions of D&D, Gamma World, Shadowrun, and Savage World, plus I've read up on a few other systems, but my knowledge base is pretty lacking. Any suggestions for a good system to suit this style of game?

DS/gameboy.

More seriously, define what you want in exhausting detail. "metroidvania" is sort of like "quantum" in how it has lost virtually any meaning it has once had as a result of being applied to everything.

Thrudd
2018-02-06, 05:11 PM
Agree: We need to define terms and intent. What is it about the metroid type game that you want to emulate? In my mind, that would basically mean a dungeon with a relatively open floor plan, you have more than one choice of route and can backtrack at will. Certain areas are only accessible after possessing a particular item or ability or having cleared out an enemy. A variety of different enemies in different areas. You are ultimately looking to find the "boss" and defeat them, and/or to escape the dungeon.
You definitely want random encounters/wandering monsters. If you leave an area for some amount of time and come back, there should be more or new creatures there.

KillianHawkeye
2018-02-06, 05:20 PM
Okay, the thing is... Metroidvania-style games are very tightly designed. They basically go Explore Area > Fight Enemies > Find Power-Up > Gain Access to New Areas. That's fine for a video game where they can limit the number of ways that the player can accomplish things, but in tabletop roleplaying there's not supposed to be only one way to do things. These scenarios are tailored for the (usually singular) character who will be sent through them. Contrast with tabletop games which have a much looser design and don't normally choose the characters the players get to play as. Also, many tabletop RPGs have characters who gain power through self-learning (whether that's by leveling up or buying new abilities or what have you) rather than by finding the next thing the DM has left for them to find. It is therefore not as easy to control what new abilities your players will develop during the course of the adventure.

Here's an example. In basically any Metroid game, there's some place that Samus cannot jump up to. Later, she get's high-jump boots that let her jump to many places she could not previously reach. In a real roleplaying game, jumping high may not be the only way to reach greater heights. Maybe characters can climb, maybe they have a rope and a grappling hook, maybe the party wizard can fly or climb using magic, maybe they can just stack a bunch of things up to make a staircase. Similarly, in a video game, there are many obstacles that require a specific weapon or item to bypass, but in an RPG there are usually different methods available. The video game character doesn't have the option to break down a wall to go around a locked door, but that's easily something they might want to do if they had the freedom to go beyond their programming.

There are many possible solutions to these kinds of problems that would be available in a game where the players can use their imaginations that are not available in the video-game version where the designers are in control of literally everything. In other words, what makes for a good video game doesn't always hold up outside of the arbitrary world of such artificial constructs.

Pleh
2018-02-06, 06:02 PM
The system doesn't matter as much. In fact, for the most part, you really want to handle this in a Freeform RPG and you make it clear to the players that in combat, players have full autonomy to handle combat in any way they choose (with a possible exception of a few bosses), while outside of combat, they should not expect character ability to matter.

Metroidvania is a Japanese Puzzle Box. The idea is to be able to see many possible moves you can make and one particular objective, but only one move you make will actually advance you towards your goal. It's all about the illusion of choice while navigating what is essentially a linear set of logical steps. With the exception of combat (which you should sprinkle everywhere to keep things feeling exciting), no character ability can auto-solve the puzzle. The entire game is about the Player analyzing the scenario and deducing the appropriate solution through logic and trying things out.

As the game progresses, certain out of combat abilities that grant access to other areas might come into play, but that will be made clear as these abilities are gained.

If you use a premade TTRPG system, the character abilities will really take away the control your map needs to pull this off. You probably should have your entire game mapped out including every detail needed to solve it and many red herrings to make the solution less obvious.

There is another problem: Metroidvania is a Solo game adventure. There isn't usually a whole lot of need to have a Party of heroes. As soon as any one of them understands the solution, they simply do it. If they can't simply do it, they just roll. If they don't roll high enough, they roll again.

What you probably want is to give each player a few different pieces of the puzzle required to solve it (the old Two Key Door problem where you have to open it together or it won't open at all).

Example: The exit to this room is concealed by an illusion, barred by a weighted portcullis, and locked with an advanced mechanism. The Elf Wizard naturally detects the secret door and can suppress the illusion, but then is too occupied to lift the portcullis and manage the lock. The Half-Orc Fighter, now able to see the exit, uses their impressive strength to lift the portcullis, but they still cannot simultaneously manage the lock. The Halfling Rogue, now able to see and reach the exit, opens the lock with their uncanny knack and the exit is opened. The heroes can now pass through to the next area.

Meta
2018-02-06, 06:40 PM
Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

Thrudd
2018-02-06, 06:53 PM
Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.
That describes exactly what D&D is made for. That's a dungeon. 5e would work perfectly, the social stuff is fairly irrelevant to the system anyway. But Basic D&D or AD&D or systems based on those are perfect if you want to remove all the chaff not necessary for dungeoning.

Also "every map connected" is generally how maps work. What else would there be behind a door but another place on a map? Are there some doors that open into the bottomless void?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-06, 07:51 PM
That describes exactly what D&D is made for. That's a dungeon. 5e would work perfectly, the social stuff is fairly irrelevant to the system anyway. But Basic D&D or AD&D or systems based on those are perfect if you want to remove all the chaff not necessary for dungeoning.
This. You've described a dungeon crawl. You're pretty much exactly described a dungeon crawl. Pick whatever system your group most enjoys the combat in and draw up a big-ass map full o' monsters.

Meta
2018-02-06, 08:57 PM
It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-06, 09:07 PM
It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.
Depends on the edition (5e is a lot more controlled than 3.5 in that regard, and from what I remember of 4e that had even less), but even that can be mitigated with careful dungeon design and/or the odd ban. Like I said, the most important thing is the combat-- from the sound of things, fighting is going to be the dominant feature of the campaign, so you'll want a system that puts a lot of spit and polish into that side of things, and that everyone enjoys the flow of.

Thrudd
2018-02-06, 10:45 PM
It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Maybe your dungeons are a lot smaller than the ones I'm thinking of. Have you ever seen Temple of Elemental Evil or the Undermountain or a lot of the other AD&D modules? The size of the map aside, it sounds like a fairly classic dungeon. The amount of magic available is really up to you, of course. With Basic or AD&D, players can cast relatively few spells, there are no at-will powers/cantrips, and the player may not even get to choose which spells their character knows (in AD&D it is suggested the DM roll dice to see what spells a level 1 character has in their spell book). Without the ability to retreat from the dungeon, resting safely and recovering spells will be much less frequent as well. I mean, using specific spells (spider climb, levitate, fly, etc.) are exactly the sort of thing that could be the solution to reaching a restricted item or solving a puzzle. Look at Basic D&D or some retroclones before you decide that it is a poor choice. I think if you only know 5e or even 3.x/PF, you really don't know how suited to this idea D&D is. This is the game designed exclusively for players to take characters through gigantic, multi-level dungeon complexes full of secret doors and hidden rooms and tricks and traps where they need to solve puzzles and fight monsters around every corner.

A modification you could make to keep the magic more limited is to replace all spell use with consumable items like potions. Imagine a party of fighters and thieves that each have a few potions or similar one-off items. Their only source of replenishing magic will be items they find in the dungeon.

But there are definitely other systems. Pretty much anything you look at other than D&D is going to have more non-combat features than D&D. Hackmaster is similar to D&D but with more detailed combat procedures. GURPS can be almost anything, there are generic fantasy supplements and an actual dungeon crawling fantasy supplement, too. D6 is another generic that has rules for a range of magic and combat details. Both those systems are really toolkits for you to design your setting, including all the options that will be available to players. In any case, you can choose to downplay the non-combat character elements - just tell players it will be combat focused and list the skills and abilities that will be relevant to your game, and they can build their characters appropriately.

Pleh
2018-02-06, 11:00 PM
Stuff requested:

Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.



Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

Yes, to this extent, D&D should work fine. The real problem is:


It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Yes, Full Casters. But even magic isn't too bad if you just do the work to plan for what spells are allowed.

This is definitely not suited for "sandbox 3.5 all splats and dragon mag allowed." This may be Core Only E6 (maybe add phb2, comp adv, and dungeonscape at most), so heroes never get to bend reality around their finger.

Also, Metroidvania can make Material Spell Components critical. Yes, you have a full caster, but to get the components needed to cast, you gotta progress.

Mordaedil
2018-02-07, 02:35 AM
I'd say D&D works just fine, just take out the wizard, sorcerer, cleric and druid, making bards the main casters.

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-02-07, 04:02 AM
E6

I second this suggestion. As the OP points out D&D has a lot of abilities in its advanced content that lets you circumvent the traditional problems of dungeon crawls, like teleportation and scrying. That's why dungeon crawling is typical for the lower levels of d&d, but not as much for the endgame. If you don't want those high level magical options (even just a druid spending the whole day switching between being a flying and a burrowing animal can make a lot of puzzles a lot less challenging) you can either put a heavy restriction on magic or magic using classes, or you can limit how high the levels go. Given that this is supposed to be inspired by games with quick combat that last option sounds better to me, as higher level martial characters tend to have longer battles. Maybe edit the healing and resting rules a bit to prevent 15 minute adventuring days and E6 or E8 should work well for this. (In case Meta in unfamiliar with the term, E6 is basically d&d where you stop gaining levels at level 6 and instead gain a single new feat for every point where you'd level up, leading to characters with diverse options but limited power, E6 characters max out roughly around or below the power level of normal level 10 characters, and spellcasting in particular has a harder time outshining the other ways of life..)

There are loads of other options of course. Systems like Basic Fantasy (http://www.basicfantasy.org/) (never played it, but heard some decent things about it on the forum I think) are designed to give the classic D&D feel in a rules light package, so anything like that might work. If you don't mind homebrewing a bunch a general/setting neutral system like Gurps, Fudge or Fate would work. They're a little more freeform, so it's harder to design puzzles with exact solutions while in d&d things like jumping distance are codified pretty well, but what you lose in rigidness of design you gain in flexibility of what you can add in. I would probably prefer either some version of d&d and in particular E6 or E8 or a streamlined "retroclone" though.

Florian
2018-02-07, 04:23 AM
It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

Nah, it´s always just one very large dungeon with some choke points, boss fights and backtracking. Metroid and such basically tried to copy a D&D stable, the "Mega Dungeon".

Anymage
2018-02-07, 04:23 AM
One of the biggest problems is that, unless you're plotting out a massive megadungeon, one of the big draws to Metroid and similar games is the exploration. (And, if we're being honest, nigh-onto cheats. Players get really invested in being able to get into areas before they're "supposed to" be able to, and often into areas they were never meant to get into in the first place.) You can't simulate the platformer-esque elements of the genre, but you can give big explorable spaces for your players to tool around in.

The other big catch is inherent in the nature of any game where players get to make choices in how their character develops. Samus is guaranteed to get missiles, bombs, high jumps, and ice beams at very particular points in the game. The devs can then plan areas around these expectations. You can't know if the player will pick the Jump spell or the Charm spell. If the players pick an ability you hadn't planned around - or worse, don't pick an ability that you had planned on them getting - that's going to throw a monkey wrench into any plans you may have made.

Mordaedil
2018-02-07, 05:57 AM
You can't plan what spells players will pick, but you can plan what magic items are available in the dungeon, which you can use inspired from other Metroidvania games (Castlevania or Metroid, both have amazing tools that might require some unique magic items)

Meta
2018-02-07, 08:14 AM
Nah, it´s always just one very large dungeon with some choke points, boss fights and backtracking. Metroid and such basically tried to copy a D&D stable, the "Mega Dungeon".

Distinct dungeons as in they're different biomes. The abandoned manor is connected to the catacombs underneath and the grounds outside but are aesthetically and tactically distinct. That's what I mean.

Slightly off topic, but I play in a 5e Mega Dungeon campaign, called just that. Great for rotating DMs and gimmicks, not so great if you like to roleplay with NPCs a lot.

I really don't think DnD is the solution. I've played 10 years of DnD now and I don't think I would describe any of 3.X-5 as being tight when it comes to combat. Add in too much magic and too much emphasis on the social aspect, and I'd like to try something else. I appreciate a lot of the responses so far, but the "No, DnD is fine" ones aren't really getting me closer to an answer.

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-02-07, 09:40 AM
You could try the D6 system. Another one I haven't played, so maybe someone else can weigh in, but it looks a bit stricter and less loose around the edges than more freeform general systems, having stuff like base stats and pretty much requiring high stats for good results. At the same time it also seems less complex and option filled than high level D&D. There is a splatbook specifically for the adventure (http://opend6.wikidot.com/d6-adventure)/pulp genre, which might be a nice switchup from medieval fantasy to help set this dungeon apart, and which would reign in the magic (a bit, it is still present).

exelsisxax
2018-02-07, 10:55 AM
Distinct dungeons as in they're different biomes. The abandoned manor is connected to the catacombs underneath and the grounds outside but are aesthetically and tactically distinct. That's what I mean.

Slightly off topic, but I play in a 5e Mega Dungeon campaign, called just that. Great for rotating DMs and gimmicks, not so great if you like to roleplay with NPCs a lot.

I really don't think DnD is the solution. I've played 10 years of DnD now and I don't think I would describe any of 3.X-5 as being tight when it comes to combat. Add in too much magic and too much emphasis on the social aspect, and I'd like to try something else. I appreciate a lot of the responses so far, but the "No, DnD is fine" ones aren't really getting me closer to an answer.

"D&D is fine" fully and completely answers the question you asked. If you are unsatisfied, you must certainly pose a revised question. We can't read your mind.


Every map is connected to another map. There are no breaks, if you go through this door it leads directly to this map.

Literally any game with maps, and most games without maps. This is just a thing that TTRPGs just do so easily everybody forgets that it's a feature.


Key/gate progression with an occasional ability learned as the 'key' being okay but I don't want to lean too heavily on that.

TTPRGs are all bad at this, because they are designed to enable play. Basically anything you pick will be about as useless as any other to make this happen. This is what a video game does, not a TTRPG.


There will be backtracking, for both 'secret' areas and because of new ways to progress.

Literally any game that has a location-based focus where obfuscation is a physical possibility. So yes, D&D works just as well as anything else, and even supports progression with new capabilities.


Combat heavy. One of the reasons I don't want to use 5e is that the notable amount of social stuff will go to waste. Largely, anyways.

pffffffffffft ahhahahahhahaha - that's a pretty good joke. Yeah, D&D is basically a monster-fighting game and works fine here.


Thinking something like Mouseguard would be a decent fit, but I've never played the system, so here I am.

Sure, but again, so does almost everything else. People are just saying stick with D&D because you indicate you already know it. You'd learn a new system for no benefit. If you want a better answer, ask a better question.

Meta
2018-02-07, 11:21 AM
Stuff

D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-07, 11:41 AM
D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.
Compared to other systems, D&D has a ton of support for combat, a fair bit (depending on exact edition) for exploration, and "here are some social skills" for social stuff. Comparing it to a system with dedicated social mechanics like Exalted is night and day.

But anyway, if you're not feeling D&D, I'd suggest Savage Worlds as the next best option on your list. Going off games I'm familiar with...

3.5 D&D/PF: Could work well, lot of depth to the fighting, but also kind of slow to the fighting and would require many houserules as to what sorts of magic are available.
5e D&D: Eh. Many similar issues to 3.5, with the added issue of less interesting fight mechanics.
4e D&D: From my memory, it sounds real good, with a nice tight emphasis on tactical combat.
Savage Worlds: Should work out alright. From what I remember, the combat is pretty quick and solid.
Exalted: Hahahaha, no.
Mutants and Masterminds: AHHAHAHAHAHA, no.
Fate: An abstract system geared towards roleplaying is definitely not what you want here.


Again, I suggest focusing on the kind of combat you want (since that sounds like the main element here) and trimming away any other problematic bits.

Scots Dragon
2018-02-07, 11:44 AM
Even going with D&D for this, you don't even need to limit all that much. Just have the place be surrounded by permanent versions of Dimensional Anchor, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Screen, and similar, and you've got somewhere in which your traditional teleportation and scrying magic doesn't work all that well, and it makes sense if you're going down the Castlevania path of this being something like the lair of an ancient evil monster like Count Dracula or some kind of evil archwizard. They've specifically made the labyrinthine maze to get to them even harder to navigate.

Thrudd
2018-02-07, 12:16 PM
D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.


The D6 system looks pretty good at first blush, I'll look a little deeper, thanks Lvl 2 Expert.
You've only played newer D&D. Older editions are literally like completely different games from the stuff that came after 2000, other than aesthetics. Even in the new editions the "social pillar" claim is BS. In older D&D it does not exist. It is literally a game made for fighting monsters and solving puzzles in dungeons and nothing else. Look at D&D Rules Cyclopedia, 1e AD&D, or retroclones like Adventurer Conqeueror King, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

D6 is great. You just need to be careful with what you allow in character creation based on the type of challenges you expect to have. It is easy for players to min-max and have incredibly high skill levels that will trivialize a lot of things. I would not allow specializations at all for a game of such limited scope. Also choose very carefully what style of combat initiative you use.

Meta
2018-02-07, 12:30 PM
Even going with D&D for this, you don't even need to limit all that much. Just have the place be surrounded by permanent versions of Dimensional Anchor, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Screen, and similar, and you've got somewhere in which your traditional teleportation and scrying magic doesn't work all that well, and it makes sense if you're going down the Castlevania path of this being something like the lair of an ancient evil monster like Count Dracula or some kind of evil archwizard. They've specifically made the labyrinthine maze to get to them even harder to navigate.

Even with limiting stuff like scrying, there are still going to be a lot of movement abilities, puzzle solving, etc. When I DM 5e I try to be a DM who says yes to players. You can use mage hand to flip this switch or prestidigitation to clear away your tracks, etc. Things like flipping a switch from a distance can throw a wrench in to a Metroidvania type set up though, and that's at just the cantrip level. Better to not let players have those options in the system than to have players pick them or any of the other rather weak spells for this like charm person.

@Grod

4e would be pretty decent, but:
Combat is a slog. It's not bad at really low levels but HP balloons too quickly and characters get a bit unwieldy. I have a couple houserules we already use to fine tune it in our 4e game but it's not super smooth.
Rituals would probably need tweaked. I could cut them out, and it would definitely be removing less than a lot of the spells in 3e, 5e, etc. but still trying to find a system that doesn't require it. It's the best of the DnD systems for this imo.

Savage Worlds would be the top of the games I've played thus far I think, we're in accord there. There is some utility 'magic' but it's a lot less.

I just noticed you're from my neck of the woods. I grew up in Greensburg, PA.

Edit for Thrudd: I'm open to playing an older DnD if it's suitable. I have a couple things to investigate already, do you have a favorite or two from that list or are they all roughly equal?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-02-07, 04:06 PM
4e would be pretty decent, but:
Combat is a slog. It's not bad at really low levels but HP balloons too quickly and characters get a bit unwieldy. I have a couple houserules we already use to fine tune it in our 4e game but it's not super smooth.
Rituals would probably need tweaked. I could cut them out, and it would definitely be removing less than a lot of the spells in 3e, 5e, etc. but still trying to find a system that doesn't require it. It's the best of the DnD systems for this imo.

I just noticed you're from my neck of the woods. I grew up in Greensburg, PA.
Yeah, I remember HP bloat being an issue-- I think I cut it by half across the board and things got more fun. I hear they fixed the math in the MM3, but I couldn't swear by that-- it's been a while since I played, and that was only at the start of the cycle.

Southwestern PA represent!

Knaight
2018-02-07, 05:08 PM
D&D is explicitly and quotably designed upon three pillars: exploration, social interaction, and combat. I'd say 1/3 is notable, but hey, you do you.

The system as it is and the system goals the designers claim to have aren't necessarily the same thing. The designers can claim that there are three equal pillars all they want; in reality there's one massive pillar (combat), one frail and spindly pillar (exploration), and one wire that runs from floor to ceiling (social interaction).

Florian
2018-02-08, 04:22 AM
@Meta:

So, to sum it up:
- Characters shouldn't have any innate ability to alter or modify their surroundings
- Character growth should be a mix of internal (more hp, better to hit chance and such) and external (reach a story point, get an ability or equipment piece)
- Room-based dungeons.
- No shopping

How about using the Deathwatch RPG? It´s quite easy to handle "Story Talents" for reaching a check-point or defeating a area boss, which can then "unlock" a new ability to explore further and it´s also easy to modify the requisition system to enable further equipment upgrades for reaching goals.

Mordaedil
2018-02-08, 04:49 AM
I'd say consider 1st or 2nd edition D&D. I think it might surprise you. Especially 1st edition where the max hits you at level 10 and every level has a unique title.

Meta
2018-02-08, 05:50 AM
Deathwatch could be a good fit. Stick them aboard a derelict space hulk or cruiser or something and they can't just lascannon down doors or risk depressurizing. 40k always has fun flavor too. Do the character roles feel pretty distinct?

I'm up for an earlier dnd edition, just hoping some sort of consensus is reached by the end of this so I can dig in to just the best one.

Florian
2018-02-08, 06:07 AM
Do the character roles feel pretty distinct?

The characters start a bit same-y, but once the begin to spent XP on the specialty tables, they're becoming very distinct pretty quick.

EldritchWeaver
2018-02-08, 10:17 AM
3.5 D&D/PF: Could work well, lot of depth to the fighting, but also kind of slow to the fighting and would require many houserules as to what sorts of magic are available.



Even going with D&D for this, you don't even need to limit all that much. Just have the place be surrounded by permanent versions of Dimensional Anchor, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Screen, and similar, and you've got somewhere in which your traditional teleportation and scrying magic doesn't work all that well, and it makes sense if you're going down the Castlevania path of this being something like the lair of an ancient evil monster like Count Dracula or some kind of evil archwizard. They've specifically made the labyrinthine maze to get to them even harder to navigate.

If going with 3.5/PF, then I would use Spheres of Power as magic system. First of, it has so-called advanced talents, which are campaign-changing. Blanket-Ban with specific exceptions will remove most of the stuff, which is problematic for this gamestyle. Secondly, maybe remove some other spheres like Telekinesis and Warp completely - or at least the problematic half of the tree (Warp can still create extradimensional spaces) - to cut down movement options. Add in some stationary teleporters and potentially some magic items to give missing abilities at the right point of time.

Thrawn4
2018-02-08, 10:41 AM
@Meta:

So, to sum it up:
- Characters shouldn't have any innate ability to alter or modify their surroundings
- Character growth should be a mix of internal (more hp, better to hit chance and such) and external (reach a story point, get an ability or equipment piece)
- Room-based dungeons.
- No shopping

I beg to differ to some degree.
- an ability to alter or modify the surroundings can be an interesting thing for puzzles and reaching differnt places, although it should be strictly limited so that players can't mess around to much (e. g. a spell that lets water freeze)
- although not necessary, shopping can be fun (for example Renon in Castlevania 64)

KillianHawkeye
2018-02-08, 06:14 PM
- although not necessary, shopping can be fun (for example Renon in Castlevania 64)

Castlevania 64 shouldn't be used as a good example of anything, but I agree that shopping shouldn't be automatically forbidden in a Metroidvania-style environment (as long as the contents of the shop are tightly controlled or they aren't particularly necessary for progression). I mean, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night had shopping and it was the game that put the "vania" into Metroidvania.

Heck, I've been playing a lot of Rise of the Tomb Raider recently, and while it's built on an action/shooter engine it still has a lot in common with the unfolding exploration style of a Metroidvania game. You can buy stuff from one guy in the game, but it's mostly upgrade stuff that doesn't affect Lara's ability to access new areas, like slightly better weapons or costumes that only change the gameplay in minor ways.

So yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with shopping.

Friv
2018-02-08, 07:31 PM
I know you've drifted away a bit, but I do actually think that a 5e megadungeon can work. If the megadungeon was created by ancient wizards, you can have wards in place that divide various sections of the dungeon from one another - teleportion or scrying within a region works, but you can't get between regions. There are small villages in some of the dungeon areas, made of the descendents of the servants and experiments the wizards brought with them, and there's social stuff to do there. You can't control what spells the players develop themselves, but you can control what spells are available for purchase and what magic items exist, and ensure that these spells and items will let the players access areas of the dungeon that they couldn't before.

The players are trapped in this ancient dungeon, having tripped a trap that sealed them in somehow in the prelude. The game runs, say, from Level 1 to Level 10 or 12. Because a lot of areas are sealed off in various ways, the monsters within can't get out to menace other areas, so you can design it as a set of eco-systems that interconnect in little ways, instead of just one megadungeon, and if A Wizard Literally Did It you can put a pretty wide variety in.

Suggested Backstory: About forty years ago, a group of seven powerful and mildly but not exceptionally evil wizards decided to Go Galt, retreating from a kingdom that they felt didn't respect their efforts. They built seven vast towers and locked themselves out of the universe, bringing hundreds of servants and captured monsters with them. But over time, the wizards became suspicious of each other, and a series of magical feuds broke out, and eventually all of the wizards were dead (unless the last one became a lich or vampire, and slumbers fitfully beneath his tower...)

The players hear stories of the wealth these wizards left behind, and go to investigate. The wards have begun to weaken, and the players manage to slip through, only to find that the wards are stronger on the inside than the outside, thanks to the wizards laying layer upon layer of traps to keep each other from leaving during their wars. To escape, they need to find the arcane foci that hold the outer wards and disable them...

Yora
2018-02-10, 04:09 AM
Someone mentioned Basic Fantasy, which I think is an excelent choice, just as Adventurer Conqueror King and Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and any other variant of the Basic/Expert D&D edition.

Compared to other editions, even AD&D, it very much feels like a stripped down version of the game, which for this kind of campaign is a huge advantage. The way spells work, they really are not very disrupting (http://spriggans-den.com/2017/02/26/bx-spells-dont-disrupt-adventuring/) when it comes to facing the players with obstacles.

Last year I also made a short list of simple but effective obstacles (http://spriggans-den.com/2017/02/01/hostile-environments-not-meant-for-people/) that go beyond the regular monsters and traps.

Frozen_Feet
2018-02-10, 11:51 AM
Was actually considering making a tabletop equivalent of Return of Samus, so this thread is of interest to me.

However, as has been correctly pointed out, a Metroidvania game typically really is just a dungeon crawl. So a stripped down version of D&D, like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, works just fine. Start at level 1, allow access to only those tools and spells which are approriate for the setting. Something like Veins of Earth would be great for plotting out the environment, as it contains rules and tools for climbing and platforming.

Yora
2018-02-10, 01:02 PM
When it comes to High Fantasy metroidvanias, the best place to look for inspirations is actually Dark Souls.

Pleh
2018-02-10, 01:19 PM
When it comes to High Fantasy metroidvanias, the best place to look for inspirations is actually Dark Souls.

Yes and no. Dark Souls DEFINITELY has the requisite dungeon crawling and mapping down flawlessly.

Other aspects of Dark Souls (soul crushing skill based arcade style gameplay) fit metroidvania slightly less and TTRPGs much less.

Closest D&D to Dark Souls I think is Tomb of Horrors.

Telling your players, "metroidvania" then delivering Dark Souls likely will be a frustrating slap in the face. If you're doing Dark Souls, call it Dark Souls. They'll get the picture a lot better that way.

Knaight
2018-02-10, 02:33 PM
However, as has been correctly pointed out, a Metroidvania game typically really is just a dungeon crawl. So a stripped down version of D&D, like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, works just fine. Start at level 1, allow access to only those tools and spells which are approriate for the setting. Something like Veins of Earth would be great for plotting out the environment, as it contains rules and tools for climbing and platforming.

It's a dungeon crawl with a fairly specific structure though - abilities gained by exploration (although potentially in fights) that let you bypass obstacles in exploration, which opens up new abilities gained by exploration. Adapting this for TRPGS, that obstacle bypass probably becomes more of an easy bypass, where creative players can still get around obstacles with more difficulty.

Pleh
2018-02-10, 04:14 PM
Actually, true metroidvania has 0% chance to bypass obstacles without keys and 100% chance with them.

D20 skill checks don't reflect this aspect of the game well.

Anymage
2018-02-10, 06:26 PM
Actually, true metroidvania has 0% chance to bypass obstacles without keys and 100% chance with them.

D20 skill checks don't reflect this aspect of the game well.

That's never stopped players from doing their damnedest to get into areas of the game well before they "should", and sometimes getting into areas they were never meant to get into at all. Never underestimate the ability of a clever, dedicated player to figure out how to get places they were never meant to.

Granted, pixel-perfect accuracy in a video game is a very different thing from randomness in 5% increments. But some level of ability to cheese one's way into a new area with cleverness, and the DM rewarding good ideas, are very much genre appropriate.

Knaight
2018-02-11, 12:47 AM
Actually, true metroidvania has 0% chance to bypass obstacles without keys and 100% chance with them.

Neither of those values are quite true. The 0% ignores all sorts of sequence breaking shenanigans, the 100% value ignores various keys that need skill to use. I've seen new players try to use the grapple beam in metroid games, and they definitely don't have a 100% chance of getting to their target destination.

Frozen_Feet
2018-02-11, 04:44 AM
It's a dungeon crawl with a fairly specific structure though - abilities gained by exploration (although potentially in fights) that let you bypass obstacles in exploration, which opens up new abilities gained by exploration. Adapting this for TRPGS, that obstacle bypass probably becomes more of an easy bypass, where creative players can still get around obstacles with more difficulty.

That "fairly specific structure" is really just out-of-the-box D&D.

Knaight
2018-02-11, 05:44 AM
That "fairly specific structure" is really just out-of-the-box D&D.

Yes and no - later editions in particular are less exploration driven than combat driven, and even earlier editions tended to mostly reward exploration with combat power. It's not quite there.

On top of that D&D has a pretty distinct and specific structure. It's not a generic fantasy game.

Pleh
2018-02-11, 07:09 AM
Neither of those values are quite true. The 0% ignores all sorts of sequence breaking shenanigans, the 100% value ignores various keys that need skill to use. I've seen new players try to use the grapple beam in metroid games, and they definitely don't have a 100% chance of getting to their target destination.

Sequence breaking shenanigans? You mean speed runner glitches? I wouldn't consider that part of the metroidvania experience as much as a byproduct of the video game medium. Metroidvania is a puzzle. Sequence breaking is cheating the puzzle. I mean, in Dark Souls you get the choice to take the key of one time sequence breaking, but purists will still say it's playing on easy mode or "not the full experience."

A player using a skill check to rope swing in D&D, if they have no effective penalty for failure (which metroid essentially doesn't, since even the worst penalty is "go back to most recent save/checkpoint"), can simply say, "my character is going to keep trying until they get it. I take 20."

Basically, when the room itself is the puzzle AND there is no other path forward (which there isn't unless you're sequence breaking), forcing the player to roll dice over and over trying to finally find the 5% they need is just punishment for... nothing.

In metroid, the repeated attempts are giving the player the chance to do it themselves. This is the difference between a platformer video game, which is about developing skill at handling the system's controls. TTRPG d20 skills are about strategy. They are weighing risk vs reward through resource management.

In metroidvania, you can have the premise of the puzzle figured out and still have to get good at doing what the solution requires. D20 skills have the dice do all that stuff for you, so you don't get any sense that YOU are doing it. It's about whether your character happens to get the magic number this time. A bit like plugging coins over and over into a slot machine.

It seems pretty clear to me that what metroidvania needs is binary pass/fail skill mechanics (for skill checks) when characters are not distracted or threatened, then dice rolls whenever there's monsters or other distractions. There is nothing to be gained nickle and diming players for those off chance 5% successes and failures.

MAYBE the percent chance is for reaching a little bonus, like an extra health potion. I don't agree that there should be much ANY way to "reach places they weren't supposed to." Rather, the map should be so well built that players might FEEL like they've gamed the system, while the DM secretly prepared for the possibility (like everything else).

KillingAScarab
2018-02-11, 11:56 AM
Sequence breaking shenanigans? You mean speed runner glitches? I wouldn't consider that part of the metroidvania experience as much as a byproduct of the video game medium. Metroidvania is a puzzle. Sequence breaking is cheating the puzzle.You can have sequence breaks the designers know about. Metroid 4 rewards the player with a special conversation (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Sector_4_conversation) if Samus reaches sector 4 without the expected power-up.

Pleh
2018-02-11, 12:43 PM
You can have sequence breaks the designers know about. Metroid 4 rewards the player with a special conversation (http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Sector_4_conversation) if Samus reaches sector 4 without the expected power-up.

But is that sequence breaking, or just programming Alternative Sequences into the game?

Frozen_Feet
2018-02-11, 03:11 PM
It is both. Speedrunning and sequence breaking were born from unintended game behaviour such as glitches, but some developers have come to consider it such an important facet of the game genre that they've started codifying it in the game. For example, Metroid: Zero Mission is filled with secret pathways to subvert the default sequence the game points out to you or rush ahead in less time.

And really, this latter style is pretty decent philosophy for tabletop games too. When plotting out a scenario, come up with one obvious road to success. Then go back and think of the most obvious alternates. That way, player attempts to subvert the main sequence won't completely throw you off and you may even reward them. Only if they go beyond that will you have to get imaginative about their attempts.

JAL_1138
2018-02-11, 07:43 PM
2e AD&D, pick up the Ruins of Undermountain box set for the dungeon. Undermountain is huge, ludicrously so, so you're not likely to run out of material. Ever.

1e AD&D modules can work quite nicely too; Tomb of Horrors, Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Lost Caverns of Tsocjanth, White Plume Mountain, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, and more. Classic dungeon crawls, all. (Also, 1e modules work fine with 2e rules; you may have to give monsters a THAC0 based on their HD if you're using 2e rules since it doesn't have the 1e to-hit tables, but the 2e rules cover THAC0-by-HD so it's not much work.)

5e D&D, use any of the dungeons in Tales from the Yawning Portal, most of which are updates of 1e dungeon-crawls anyway (but be advised that the 5e Tomb of Horrors in there is a somewhat lazy conversion that doesn't adjust well for higher character survivability in 5e compared to AD&D, nor does it set DCs to detect traps and hidden doors high enough to present any challenge to a Rogue with Expertise in Perception—or worse, Expertise and the Observant feat). Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan is quite large but not the size of Undermountain or anything, so that might be about the size you're after. Bonus—5e has easier rules for new players/DMs to learn, characters have higher survivability than in AD&D, TftYP starts with low-level dungeons and progresses to higher levels so you can start them at 1st level and continue from there (each dungeon in TftYP is self-contained, so you can stop after one or string them together, or start at higher levels), and it's currently in print so it's easy to get ahold of.

EDIT: Read your comments on utility magic and HIGHLY recommend old-school 1e/2e AD&D or Basic (BECMI/RC). Spellcasters at super-high levels could be powerful, as could utility magic, but casters also had limits newer D&D doesn't have. It took a long time to prepare spells, based on spell level (which makes it harder to recover in a dungeon), and for example in 2e there were no cantrips except the first-level spell called "Cantrip," so you run into fewer issues there like at-will Mage Hand. Low-level casters have quite few spells per day and level fairly slowly compared to other classes, and the DM has somewhat greater ability to limit what spells can be learned (for wizards at least, even specialists).

Knaight
2018-02-12, 02:50 AM
It seems pretty clear to me that what metroidvania needs is binary pass/fail skill mechanics (for skill checks) when characters are not distracted or threatened, then dice rolls whenever there's monsters or other distractions. There is nothing to be gained nickle and diming players for those off chance 5% successes and failures.

I don't necessarily disagree here - the lower percentages in actual metroidvanias reflect variability due to player skill, and mapping that to random die rolls just isn't fun. With that said, having an expected method that works reliably (e.g. use the boots of water walking to cross the river without getting swept too far downstream) and allowing sequence breaking (e.g. getting across that same river by tying a rope to an improvised anchor, launching it upstream around a corner somehow, then holding for dear life as you swing across) with decent rolls would also work.

Knaight
2018-02-16, 09:38 AM
So, as I've mentioned elsewhere on the boards the current structure of my gaming is no main campaign, plus GMing a weekly* one shot at what I'm calling One Shot Club**. This allows for a certain level of experimental leeway, so I decided to give this a shot as a one shot (now a two shot, the dungeon was overambitious). I used WR&M, built the dungeon around four magic items in a way that made sense (they're all there from the original owners as intended traversal mechanisms in case of an emergency), and it worked quite well. I can now confirm at least one system for this.

*Optimistic projection.
**It was [Hometown] Experimental RPG Society for a while, but then it turned out that we didn't need a pretentious, official sounding name to get a room at the local FLGS under.

HidesHisEyes
2018-02-28, 08:09 PM
It's more several connected 'dungeons.'

DnD is a poor choice without shutting off a lot of magic. Too many movement abilities and utility to circumvent puzzles, gates, etc.

You should check out this series of articles by Angry DM. It’s his unfinished magnum opus mega-dungeon project. He cites Metroid, Castlevania and Dark Souls as specific models/influences.

http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/

He starts by planning the xp rewards and level curve, then maps the physical dungeon layout to that. To tackle the concern you mention - players using flight, teleportation etc to overcome obstacles - he does it the hard way: combs the PHB for the levels when those options become available and makes sure they coincide with the party discovering the built-in way of overcoming such obstacles. It’s the most rigorously designed half-finished project I’ve ever seen.

D&D is probably the perfect system for this kind of game - but it would be a serious, serious design task.

RedMage125
2018-02-28, 10:34 PM
I'm gonna second 4e on this one.

For abilities granted to get past obstacles, it would be trivially easy to grant each player a bonus utility power that only bypasses X door, or allows them to use Green/Red/Blue/Mauve Levitation Glyphs or whatever to bypass obstacles.

neonchameleon
2018-03-01, 06:36 PM
The answers to this are fairly obvious. Old school D&D (get a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1)) is pretty much what Metroidvanias were based on - but expect the low level characters to go into the dungeon with a small army of hirelings. One of the key differences between old school D&D and more modern D&Ds is that almost all wizard spells are found as treasure - and you get the overwhelming majority of your XP from the 1GP = 1XP rule (meaning that smart play involves avoiding fights and robbing monsters blind).

D&D 4e brings a much more tactical style of combat, with each combat being a puzzle in its own right. It also does some fairly good Metroidvania play if you run it very tightly.

A key thing with both games and keeping your Metroidvanias intense is pacing. The old school D&D rule for pacing is that for every ten minutes of in-character activity you make a wandering monster check - keeping people moving. In 4e to keep it tense and to keep hit points mattering you need to make the PCs struggle to find spaces they can short rest - and to long rest they need to go back to base camp. (Which they also do in old school D&D; eight hour rests are 48 wandering monster checks and no one is going to face that without a fight).

And my 4e dungeon exploration rule is "You get a level each time you reach a new floor - but if you are at the highest or equal highest level of anyone in the party you only get to level up if you reach base camp." This on one occasion has prompted a ridiculous abseiling expedition to gain three levels in a session. And good luck to them.

Pleh
2018-03-01, 11:31 PM
I did have a new and related thought today:

Subnautica is a fairly effective metroidvania, but it's the first I've seen where the only walls of progression are the laws of survival. Rather than limiting progression with walls, doors, and jumps, our ability to unlock new tech is based on racing against the clock based on health, hydration, and oxygen (and a few walls and doors). By planning your resources carefully and using patience not to overextend yourself exploring, you can gradually collect components to craft tech to increase your exploration and gathering capacity.

Again, regular D&D can do this really well if you rigorously plan it out. I just had never thought of or seen that method before. The game flows beautifully.

What Dark Souls and Subnautica teach us, though, is that when you make death a stake in the game, it's best to give infinite respawns to balance, though some loss of resources is a fair penalty for failure. Just shunt them back to their most recent milestone and take their expendable resources.

Rhedyn
2018-03-04, 10:07 AM
My gaming groups have expressed some interest in a Metroidvania inspired game. I don't imagine it would be a particularly long campaign, probably closer to a large module in size, across a couple levels of play. I've played several editions of D&D, Gamma World, Shadowrun, and Savage World, plus I've read up on a few other systems, but my knowledge base is pretty lacking. Any suggestions for a good system to suit this style of game?
Dungeon Crawl Classic may be worth a gander.

I really like Savage Worlds, but since it lacks hit points, a more gamey dungeon crawl would be less likely to translate. The story tone would shift and players would feel very desperate and the cumulative stress of the dungeon would eventually crush the characters, unless you have some wound removal rooms. But the big issue is that mono creature boss rooms require a hack to work right. I personally "stack" the boss, I just make it several creatures that take up the same space and have multiple iniatives.

CarpeGuitarrem
2018-03-05, 01:25 AM
I would actually suggest Fate for a simple reason: it's partly built around the idea that Aspects give narrative permission. To put it another way, Aspects unlock certain actions and solutions.

You can set up "gates" with the premise that you need an appropriate Aspect to attempt to overcome the obstacle. Maybe you have a canon "key" that provides automatic success, but so long as you have an appropriate Aspect in the scene (that you've created or discovered), you can at least roll.

This encourages creativity, and compromises between the strict economy of metroidvanias and the freedom of RPGs.

CharonsHelper
2018-03-05, 10:23 AM
I'm up for an earlier dnd edition, just hoping some sort of consensus is reached by the end of this so I can dig in to just the best one.

If you decide to go that way, I'd suggest going with one of the OSR games. They have the same vibe as early D&D, but they clean up a lot of the kludge.

bc56
2018-03-11, 08:04 AM
I would recommend D&D 5e.
I run a similar game to that using Angry's Megadungeon System (http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/). The trick is knowing when the PCs can bypass the various "gates," and then giving them the key once they reach that level.

Bubzors
2018-03-15, 07:59 AM
I would recommend D&D 5e.
I run a similar game to that using Angry's Megadungeon System (http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/). The trick is knowing when the PCs can bypass the various "gates," and then giving them the key once they reach that level.


You should check out this series of articles by Angry DM. It’s his unfinished magnum opus mega-dungeon project. He cites Metroid, Castlevania and Dark Souls as specific models/influences.

http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/

He starts by planning the xp rewards and level curve, then maps the physical dungeon layout to that. To tackle the concern you mention - players using flight, teleportation etc to overcome obstacles - he does it the hard way: combs the PHB for the levels when those options become available and makes sure they coincide with the party discovering the built-in way of overcoming such obstacles. It’s the most rigorously designed half-finished project I’ve ever seen.

D&D is probably the perfect system for this kind of game - but it would be a serious, serious design task.


I'm going to third this saying 5E will work great, just requires you to design it very tightly and around levels when you unlock certain spells/abilities. Definitely give his articles a read as his stated goals are exactly the same as yours, down to the different biomes giving different aesthetic and monsters.

The biggest problem is that no matter what the system, the dungeon will have to be rigorously designed so that an oversight by you doesn't allow the players to "break" your dungeon

bc56
2018-03-15, 07:25 PM
I actually used Angry's stuff, (which is why I recommended it in the first place) and I think it works great. His set of gates is pretty comprehensive, but the floodgates are pretty wimpy (easy to bypass). I gave out flight one tier later than he recommended, but it was fine, the particular loophole for that is so complex one would probably have to read his articles to learn it.
Be wary using outdoor areas. They're easy to find ways to break out of.

Knaight
2018-03-15, 07:34 PM
I actually used Angry's stuff, (which is why I recommended it in the first place) and I think it works great. His set of gates is pretty comprehensive, but the floodgates are pretty wimpy (easy to bypass). I gave out flight one tier later than he recommended, but it was fine, the particular loophole for that is so complex one would probably have to read his articles to learn it.
Be wary using outdoor areas. They're easy to find ways to break out of.

It depends on the specifics of the outdoor areas. The one I ran had four gates and upgrades, and had a lot of areas that were outside - on the other hand, it was also a mobile mining fortress in the sky, which really cut down on mobility options. Said gates were a vertical gap (closed by the floatring, a limited magic item that could go straight up or down slowly), the oppressive heat (closed by the flame resistance shrine), the horizontal gap (closed by the portable bridge, a shrinking and growing magic item), and the etching cloud* (closed by the ceramic transformation shrine).

Those outdoor areas were probably the hardest to traverse, along with being fairly dangerous compliments of the birdpeople and their total willingness to knock non-fliers to the ground miles below.

*Essentially the fantasy equivalent of metal eating nanobots.

bc56
2018-03-15, 09:10 PM
It depends on the specifics of the outdoor areas. The one I ran had four gates and upgrades, and had a lot of areas that were outside - on the other hand, it was also a mobile mining fortress in the sky, which really cut down on mobility options. Said gates were a vertical gap (closed by the floatring, a limited magic item that could go straight up or down slowly), the oppressive heat (closed by the flame resistance shrine), the horizontal gap (closed by the portable bridge, a shrinking and growing magic item), and the etching cloud* (closed by the ceramic transformation shrine).

Those outdoor areas were probably the hardest to traverse, along with being fairly dangerous compliments of the birdpeople and their total willingness to knock non-fliers to the ground miles below.

*Essentially the fantasy equivalent of metal eating nanobots.

Mine was a dungeon under a volcano, formerly owned by an archlich but now the property of a Beholder. The gates were
Bonecarved key - opens special locks - level 3, day 3
Shield switch - turns certain magical forcefields on and off - level 4, day 5
Crystal boss - a crystalline monster made a section of the dungeon overgrown with crystals which blocked further progress. The PCs had to kill it. - level 4, day 7
Elevator key - allowed the PCs to use the fortress' elevator system - level 5, day 10
Plant Boss - defeating it removed poisonous roots from certain areas - level 5, day 11
Floodgates - closing them removed water from the vaults, and drained a raging underground river - level 6, day 12
Totally not a portal gun - short range teleport, as Misty Step - level 7, day 15
Lavaforged key - opens certain passages sealed with volcanic rock - level 7, day 17
Flying carpet - the big slow one - level 8, day 19
Then they need 4 runestones scattered around the complex to open the beholder's lair and finally confront him.

One may notice suspicious similarities between my gates and Angry's. This is because he has a really good list of gates. I don't think I could improved the set much. In retrospect, floodgates were the softest gate, and the players could have gotten past that pretty easily.