PDA

View Full Version : Wizard spells and science skills, again.



Duke Malagigi
2007-08-27, 01:42 AM
This is my second try after the 45 day limit ran out on my first thread if this natrue here. This is also based off of the idea of wizards as scientists and magical engineers and therefore may not be suitible for most settings.

To me wizards should be the scientests of the D&D game. They represent knowledge, insight and a fundemental unerstanding of the world around them. So why don't they get more than two skill points and why aren't their spells dependant on scientific skills? This should include such fields as biology and geology. This is my humble proposal and in addition to the standard eight schools of magic. This would require raising the skill points to either four or six. So, is this a good idea or not? This will also devide Knowledge (Nature) in to three skills, Knowledge (Geology), Knowledge (Meteorology) and Knowledge (Organic Studies). Please note that this is not for all campaign settings.

Cold-based spells
Knowledge (Chemistry)
Example spells: Wall of Ice and Cone of Cold.

Fire-based spells
Knowledge (Chemistry)
Example spells: Fireball, Burning Hands, Wall of Fire and Meteor Swarm.

Light-based spells
Knowledge (Optics)
Example spells: Dancing Lights, Light and Prismatic Spray.

Sound-based spells
Knowledge (Acoustics)
Example spells: Shatter, Shout and Ghost Sounds.

Gravity-based spells
Knowledge (Dynamics)
Example spells: Levitate, Fly, Overland Flight and Reverse Gravity.

Electrical spells
Knowledge (Electrodynamics)
Example spells: Shocking Grasp and Lightning Bolt.

Mind affecting spells
Knowledge (Psychology)
Example spells: Charm Person and Dominate Person.

Weather-based spells
Knowledge (Meteorology)
Example spells: Wall of Wind.

Optical illusions
Knowledge (Optics)
Example spells: Invisibility and Minor Image.

Shadow
Knowledge (Optics)
Example spells: Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.

Summoning and teleporting spells
Knowledge (Astrophysics)
Example spells: All Summon Monster spells, Gate and Mount.

Other conjuration spells
Knowledge (Molecular Physics)
Example spells: Wall of Iron, Fabricate and Genesis (that and Knowledge (Astrophysics).

Divination
Knowledge (Chaos Theory)
Example spells: Detect Magic, Detect Alignment (any) and True Seeing.

Physical alteration spells
Knowledge (Molecular Physics)
Example spells: The Polymorph spells and Flesh to Stone.

Abjuration
Knowledge (Dynamics).

Necromancy
Knowledge (Biology)
Example spells: Deathwatch (if made arcane as well) and Minor Medicinal Aliment.

They would need to make casting checks with the following formula with the appropriate skill above.


Spell Tier DC
0-3rd 5+levelx2
4th-6th 10+levelx2
7th-9th 15+levelx2
10th-12th 20+levelx2
13th-15th 25+levelx2
16th-18th 30+levelx2

For a level by level breakdown, see below.


Spell Level DC
0 5
1st 7
2nd 9
3rd 11
4th 18
5th 20
6th 22
7th 29
8th 31
9th 33
10th 40
11th 42
12th 44
13th 51
14th 53
15th 55
16th 62
17th 64
18th 66


Spell Level Minimum Ranks
0 1
1st 2
2nd 3
3rd 5
4th 6
5th 8
6th 9
7th 11
8th 12
9th 14
10th 15
11th 17
12th 18
13th 20
14th 21
15th 23
16th 24
17th 26
18th 27

Every five ranks above the minimum rank of the spell counts as a spell level increase for the purpose of metamagic but for that casting only and only using metamagic feats the wizard knows. This is in addition to minimum caster level. Also the spell's base level and metamagic adjustments combined can not be higher than the wizard's maximum spell level.

Do any of you think these are good ideas? Shoud I have even brought this up in this place?

martyboy74
2007-08-27, 06:47 AM
Would this be an additional limitation added on to the wizard, or would it be replacing Vancian casting?

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-27, 11:13 AM
Would this be an additional limitation added on to the wizard, or would it be replacing Vancian casting?

If you fail your casting check the spell goes un cast but no spell points or slots are used. Spell points or spell slots are only used in the successful casting of spells under this system. Memorization is only required if the wizard's player wishes to take a 10. Other wise it's spontaneous.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-27, 03:05 PM
It's an interesting idea. But I think the skill system being how it is (mostly how you can get bonuses so easily), and the spell system as it is (lots of broken spells) means this isn't going to work easily.

It's also tempting to suggest a few more skills for the spell categories, chemistry and general physics cover just about everything.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-27, 03:35 PM
It's an interesting idea. But I think the skill system being how it is (mostly how you can get bonuses so easily), and the spell system as it is (lots of broken spells) means this isn't going to work easily.

It's also tempting to suggest a few more skills for the spell categories, chemistry and general physics cover just about everything.

You'd still need to have the same minimum caster level to cast spell that a standard wizard would. I'd also like to see your additional skill suggestion as well.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-27, 03:59 PM
You would need to be high enough level to cast the spell and you would ranks in a related skill to cast such spell.

For example: Alexander Hasting (the name just popped into my head), is a human 15th level evoker with an Intelligence of 18. This would mean that he could cast up to 8th spells. He also has a Knowledge (Chemistry) rank of 18. If added to his Intelligence bonus he would have a total of +22 to all Knowledge (Chemistry) checks. If Alexander's specialization bonus was included the total would be +24 for all fire or cold-based evocation spell checks. At the same time, polar ray, an eighth level evocation spell spell, would have a DC of 31. This would mean that mister Hasting would only fail when casting the spell polar ray on a roll of 8 or lower or at best a roll of 6 or lower.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-27, 04:14 PM
Quantum Physics might work for Divination and Teleportation. Maybe String Theory for "Other Conjuration"?

I suppose if you can't exceed caster level that makes things less open to abuse.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-27, 04:41 PM
Quantum Physics might work for Divination and Teleportation. Maybe String Theory for "Other Conjuration"?

I suppose if you can't exceed caster level that makes things less open to abuse.

I'll do that. Probably not right now, but sometime today.

martyboy74
2007-08-28, 08:49 PM
With the note of this being a restriction in addition to the vancian systems, this actually works very nicely. I wouldn't be surprised if this did a lot to balance out the wizard, just by restricting their access to high level spells so much.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-30, 10:28 AM
Quantum Physics might work for Divination and Teleportation. Maybe String Theory for "Other Conjuration"?

Thank you, I just changed that.

deshrimp
2007-08-30, 10:43 AM
Wouldn't divination spells actually use Knowledge(religion)?

It makes sense. And as far as Quantum Physics go, doesnt the world technically need a certain scientific level first? Same with String theory?

Also I would change Organic Studies to Biology. Its shorter.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-30, 11:06 AM
Wouldn't divination spells actually use Knowledge(religion)?

It makes sense. And as far as Quantum Physics go, doesnt the world technically need a certain scientific level first? Same with String theory?

Also I would change Organic Studies to Biology. Its shorter.

As for Quantum Physics and String Theory, it's true you need a certain scientific level first, but would the whole world need to be that advanced? Couldn't wizards be the only ones who know of and understand String Theory and Quantum Physics? And no wizardly divination should need Knowledge (Religion). There is nothing innately religious about wizards.

Duke Malagigi
2007-09-01, 07:44 PM
I've made a few more changes to the list if any one else is curious.

Duke Malagigi
2007-09-16, 12:38 AM
I'm making a few wizards that use this system if any one is interested. If you have wizards of your own using this system I'd like to them as well.

CrazyMuffinMan
2007-09-16, 02:13 AM
Conjuration (Healing) -> Biology.

This would be an excellent addition.

Kai-Palin
2007-09-16, 09:25 AM
Not that wizards get many (if any) Conjuration (healing) spells (Unless this Vancian thing gives it to them, I haven't heard of it before). But if the system were to be extended to bards and people who could cast them, biology would work fine. And it seems to me that with the incredible amount of versatility available with most conjuration spells, the knowledge category they have should be specifically for them, and not divination and abjuration as well.

Duke Malagigi
2007-09-16, 10:04 AM
Conjuration (Healing) -> Biology.

This would be an excellent addition.

Healing gets moved into necromancy. Otherwise you're right.

DanielLC
2007-09-16, 08:41 PM
Summoning and teleporting spells
Knowledge (Quantum Physics)
Example spells: All Summon Monster spells, Gate and Mount.

Other conjuration spells
Knowledge (String Theory)
Example spells: Wall of Iron, Fabricate and Genesis (that and Knowledge (Astrophysics)).

Divination
Knowledge (Quantum Physics)
Example spells: Detect Magic, Detect Alignment (any) and True Seeing.

Abjuration
Knowledge (Quantum Physics).

Are you just putting everything you don't know how to work in sciences you don't understand?

Summoning and teleportation: Quantum physics is required to make the teleportation perfect. It is unknown if this is necessary, but quantum physics only tells you how to teleport very small objects (atoms and smaller). Assembling them is the hard part.

Other conjuration: I admit I know virtually nothing about string theory either, but if it said you could create objects out of thin air, it wouldn't have lasted long.

Divination: Quantum physics tells you that predicting the future (with complete certainty) is impossible (I don't know about seeing it directly). It is only useful for sending information if you want it to be perfectly secure (and you don't use a key). If you want to detect an alignment, I'd recommend psychology, or possibly biology.

Abjuration: I don't see what any of the abjuration spells has to do with quantum physics. A few of them can be done with simple chemistry, but other than that, I see no science.

Seriously though, what makes you think these worlds even HAVE quantum physics (although the actual rules have more quanta than quantum physics ever did, e.g. your strength can be 12 or 13, but not 12.5). Just call it advanced physics or maybe advanced magic or arcana.

Duke Malagigi
2007-09-18, 03:18 PM
I've changed the names of the skills a bit and I intend upon coming up with a failure result table in case severe blunders (roll totals of 15 or more below the listed DC). Accidents do happen you know.

Kagan
2007-09-20, 03:56 AM
I like where you're going, but I think that the complications created by this system outweigh the potential gain flavor-wise.

First of all, knowledge skills as a whole seem to be underused (when was the last time anyone made a character that dabbled in Knowledge (Architecture), or Knowledge (Geography)? Adding even more to the mix sounds like a recipe to, well, add more skill checks without actually doing anything with the skills themselves. In your hypothetical world, a wizard now needs to allocate skill points into Knowledge (Optics) in order to cast invisibility. When will he ever use this skill outside of this "caster check" system you've brewed up? I honestly can't think of how I could, as a DM, craft situations where he actually uses these skills that he'll be allocating points toward.. Ever. That being the case, this looks more like a system that doesn't add much besides making me roll more dice to see if I successfully cast a spell.

Second, your source of complaint seems to be a bit of a stretch. On one hand, I can understand the notion of a wizard that studies the process and effects of casting bull's strength or cat's grace having or needing some working knowledge of biology. On the other hand, though, that is terrifyingly specific and potentially overbearing. Forcing a wizard to make a "Knowledge (Biology)" check to make certain he can successfully cast a bull's strength spell that he already knows how to cast would be akin to requiring a fighter to make a "Knowledge (swordplay)" check to confirm the fact that he knows how to hit things with his weapon.

If you shifted your goals toward fixing 'school specialization', and substituted the "knowledge DC to cast" concept for a points-based "research focus" tree - where a wizard continually chooses what he will 'focus his studies on' - I think it might work out a bit better. Give this a direct impact on what spells are available for him to have/research, and their relative potency, and I think it would add a bit more flavor than getting a "bonus metamagic effect" from a lucky roll of the d20.

I like the idea that a "transmutation specialist" could possibly 'focus his studies' on augmenting physical prowess - and thereby be able to (in time) give a subject a bonus greater than the normal +4 when casting bull's strength, cat's grace, or the like. Or, an "evocation specialist" could focus on fireballs and the like to augment the radius or damage beyond the stated text of the spell. An abjuration specialist could actually use dispel magic to possibly counter a spell - despite it normally being (as far as I've seen in my games) a strategy that is rarely successful (to say the least).

Plug in whatever names you'd prefer for the spell schools, specialization and the like, and I think it might be cool.

Duke Malagigi
2007-09-29, 06:18 PM
I made some major changes to the base rules, including the addition of minimum skill ranks for each spell. I also would like to develop metamagic components that actually have some real relation to the spell cast. I don't like the idea of using a fire opal to cast a widened fireball. It just doesn't make sense to me.