Level 20 Warblade going into Epic... where to start?

[Jarmen4u]

Title says it all, I'm a Human Warblade 20 (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1330036) doing a sort of half-assed ubercharger with ToB maneuvers to do everything uber can't, and I'll be leveling soon. This is something of a long game, so I can probably plan ahead 5-10 levels past 20. I just don't know where to start, since I've never done Epic. Help?

[Troacctid]

I'd be inclined to take an Epic Destiny (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428). They're great and super cool.

[Anthrowhale]

Dire Charge is an obvious feat for an ubercharger.

Something like Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 might be good although getting 3rd level spells for Sublime Chord seems tricky. Alternatively, maybe Divine Crusader 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator?

[martixy]

You could try this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95516-Epic-Martial-Adept-Progressions-and-Feats

[Jarmen4u]

I'll check out Dire Charge, sounds cool. What does the Bard/SC/etc give me? Is it for self buffing?

[Anthrowhale]

I'll check out Dire Charge, sounds cool. What does the Bard/SC/etc give me? Is it for self buffing?

Yes, plus the most powerful epic feat is Epic Spell, for which you need 9th level spells.

[Jarmen4u]

Yes, plus the most powerful epic feat is Epic Spell, for which you need 9th level spells.

How do I get access to 9th level spells as a 20th level martial character? Or as a 30th level with 10 caster levels?

[Anthrowhale]

How do I get access to 9th level spells as a 20th level martial character? Or as a 30th level with 10 caster levels?

The suggestion was using a fast advancing class. But, I just realized there is a better approach...

Use Psychic Reformation to exchange a known feat for Knowledge Devotion, Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Heighten Spell, and maximum ranks in Knowledge[Religion] and Spellcraft.
Take 1 level of Cleric and learn Divine Metamagic[Heighten Spell].

You now qualify for Epic Spellcasting.

Epic Spellcasting is quite broken, so you'll have to negotiate with your DM & party about what are reasonable uses. Nevertheless, this seems like a nice way to let an epic martial character be relevant in a game with epic spellcasters.

[Troacctid]

Epic Destiny can give you 9th level spells!

Well, okay, just one 9th level spell, but it's miracle, and you get to pick the miracle yourself instead of entreating a deity, so it's pretty mucht he best 9th level spell.

[Jarmen4u]

I know I might be going about this all wrong because I'm not too familiar with high-level playing, but is there something I can use that's not just "yeah just make him more wizard"? I feel like psychic reformation is a bit hard to justify using in-character, and as a pseudo-ubercharger, I kind of need most of my feats. Other than Epic Destiny (which looks pretty nice, and I'll run by my DM), are there any suggested classes to check out? Damage isn't really an issue for me currently, though that much is probably obvious. My main weaknesses so far are lack of mind immunities, and inability to hit enemies inflated ACs.

Currently, the biggest bads I've fought in-game included illithids and dragons (beefed up far beyond what the stat block says) which had ACs upwards of 45-50. My attack bonus, with a +5 weapon, is +31, so I'm not really able to reliably penetrate said armor. What options do I have to possibly attack vs touch AC as an always-on thing? Also, I have Iron Heart Surge, but I'm not sure how well that would protect me vs Mind-Affecting things, as my DM may argue that, if possessed, my character wouldn't want to cleanse his brainwashing. So any sources of mind blank would also be appreciated. I don't mean items though. Specific items are hard to come by unless you craft them yourself or get someone to make one for you, so asking the DM to buy a Mind Blank X item or ghost touch weapon(or whatever type of enchant) would probably not go well.

[Anthrowhale]

You could buy a collection of Rapier's of Puncturing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#rapierofPuncturing) and take Quickdraw. Against anything vulnerable to Con damage that's a nasty attack. However, this does not synergize well with an Ubercharger.

The other way to get touch attack is via Deep Impact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deepImpact) which costs 3-4 feats.

[Darrin]

My main weaknesses so far are lack of mind immunities, and inability to hit enemies inflated ACs.


Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward (Magic of Incarnum) protects you from possession, enchantment (charm), and enchantment (compulsion) effects.

Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness) gives you an additional save against a stun or daze effect, and helps shore up some of the weaknesses of Iron Heart Surge. IHS is not written all that coherently, so it winds up not countering some things it should be able to counter, and countering some things it shouldn't. You have to be able to move to use it, which means it doesn't work against some status effects that it probably should. Quick Recovery costs a move action, allowing either an extra save vs. stun/daze after you failed the first one, or a Will save you normally wouldn't have gotten (as well as an opportunity to use Moment of Perfect Mind).

Another way to get mind immunities would be to go Necropolitan, picking up the undead type along with a lot of other immunities. However, you'd lose your Con score.

As far as touch attacks go...

Emerald Razor is a thing.

Deep Impact has been mentioned, but you'd have to devote three feats to it: Hidden Talent -> Psionic Weapon -> Deep Impact.

In Dragon Compendium, there's a simple weapon called a poison ring. It only does 1 damage, but every attack with it is a melee touch attack. This works well with Bonesplitting Strike (2 Con damage), White Raven Hammer (no-save stun), or Mountain Tombstone Strike (2d6 Con damage).

You can take the Apprentice feat (DMGII) to gain UMD as a class skill or take the Touchstone feat (Sandstorm) to link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Magic domain power. Put a wand chamber in your weapon (100 GP, Dungeonscape) and plug in a wand of whirling blade (Spell Compendium).

If you're just looking for an attack bonus... Knight of the Middle Circle 1 (Defenders of the Faith) gets you a +2 insight bonus against a chosen target. If you're lawful, Shape Soulmeld: Incarnate Avatar + Bonus Essentia (Magic of Incarnum) gets you an insight bonus on melee attacks.

[Florian]

I know I might be going about this all wrong because I'm not too familiar with high-level playing, but is there something I can use that's not just "yeah just make him more wizard"?

Depends on your group and gm. Epic rules push the power of magic to an absolute absurd degree. If your group starts escalating it to that level, or your gm starts throwing around encounters that can only be beat when using that level, then no, your only chance is to use a fast track build and become a full caster yourself. The sad truth why Epic is such a failure.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly I would just work my way into qualifying for a TOB prc at 21 so you don't take bland featurless base class levels for 21+. Bloodstorm blade or MoN works well.

Epic play is wierd though. The rules come appart at the seams. If your game has enouge character and story to hold together on pure roleplay, you will be fine regardless of build so long as the 1-20 build is fun. If the game is so focused on rollplay over roleplay, the game is going to break anyway regardless of the build you choose.

[Jarmen4u]

Depends on your group and gm. Epic rules push the power of magic to an absolute absurd degree. If your group starts escalating it to that level, or your gm starts throwing around encounters that can only be beat when using that level, then no, your only chance is to use a fast track build and become a full caster yourself. The sad truth why Epic is such a failure.

The GM is an old guy who puts a lot of 1E+2E in his games, hence the obsession with illithid/psionic enemies and old school dungeons. A lot of the time, it seems like the only increase in difficulty is inflated AC, spell resistance, and stats. I don't really think T1 optimization is necessary, especially since our only T1 caster (cleric) is his wife, and is almost always playing a backseat/supportive role, and not optimizing at all.


Honestly I would just work my way into qualifying for a TOB prc at 21 so you don't take bland featurless base class levels for 21+. Bloodstorm blade or MoN works well.

Epic play is wierd though. The rules come appart at the seams. If your game has enouge character and story to hold together on pure roleplay, you will be fine regardless of build so long as the 1-20 build is fun. If the game is so focused on rollplay over roleplay, the game is going to break anyway regardless of the build you choose.

I was thinking about BSB as I read about it previously and seemed pretty cool. I just wasn't sure if the ToB PrCs would be better than something that's actually made to be epic.

[Fouredged Sword]

Unless you go for the one that grants divine rank 0, most of the epic prcs are kinda meh. The epic level handbook was written very early on before wotc understood that martials had a hard time at higher levels.

[ghanjrho]

Unless you go for the one that grants divine rank 0, most of the epic prcs are kinda meh. The epic level handbook was written very early on before wotc understood that martials had a hard time at higher levels.

Which PrC grants Divine Rank 0?

[Bucky]

Deep Impact has been mentioned, but you'd have to devote three feats to it: Hidden Talent -> Psionic Weapon -> Deep Impact.
Or dip Psion or PsyWar to replace Hidden Talent and get Psionic Weapon as a bonus feat.

[Malroth]

your DM likes Psionics? Grab A level of Ardent, The Practiced manafestor feat a couple times and an orange prisim ion stone.

[Jarmen4u]

your DM likes Psionics? Grab A level of Ardent, The Practiced manafestor feat a couple times and an orange prisim ion stone.

So that feat doesn't stack with itself on a single class, and I don't know if a +1 caster level stone affects manifestor level. That aside, what's so great about Ardent that it's worth the 1 level dip? Specifically, which of the mantles are strongest/most useful in this case?

Edit: nevermind, my wisdom score is 9, so a psionic class like that wouldn't really benefit me very well.

[Troacctid]

If you want more of what you're already doing, you could multiclass into Crusader or Swordsage. Since you're 20th level already, you can immediately get maneuvers up to 6th level from them.

I'd also point out that you already have Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative, so you're actually unusually well-positioned for Master of Nine. A level of Swordsage for the necessary breadth of disciplines, a level of Monk for Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike as bonus feats, pick up Adaptive Style as a feat, and you're in. Then you can start taking 9th level maneuvers and stances from every school, which seems pretty great.

Jade Phoenix Mage would also be great. Head into Wizard 3 first for 2nd level spells, then you'll get 3rd level spells at level 26. Pick disobedience for one of them and bam, you're protected from mind control.

[Drelua]

+31 is a pretty low attack bonus for a level 20 warblade, what's your strength? Sounds like you probably don't have a strength belt, try to get that and a tome when you can afford it, which you should probably be able to at level 20. I know you said your DM can make it pretty hard to get a certain item, but a strength belt is a pretty basic thing that any warrior wants, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. Unless you just had low starting stats.

[Jarmen4u]

+31 is a pretty low attack bonus for a level 20 warblade, what's your strength? Sounds like you probably don't have a strength belt, try to get that and a tome when you can afford it, which you should probably be able to at level 20. I know you said your DM can make it pretty hard to get a certain item, but a strength belt is a pretty basic thing that any warrior wants, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. Unless you just had low starting stats.

My base is 21, with a +4 belt. Like I said earlier, I can't just buy items from Ye Olde Magic Shoppe, so getting a better belt/tome is off the table unless I can find someone to make one. And then there's the conversation about how my character, with no arcane background, would even know an item like that existed, let alone ask someone to make one. That's why I'm looking for class features to use, not items so much.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would give up on the tome and start looking for a group of wizards who can scrape together 5 9th level spell slots for 5 castings of wish.

If you go epic start looking for a +6 weapon to bypass epic dr. It also helps your to hit.

[Darrin]

And then there's the conversation about how my character, with no arcane background, would even know an item like that existed, let alone ask someone to make one.

That's an absurd premise. This is an epic character, with 20 levels under his belt. He would have spent years adventuring alongside powerful wizards, and seen similarly powerful heroes/villains using such spells and items. He would know that such spells and items existed, and have a list of powerful spellcaster allies he could call on for assistance.

A Warblade 20 is very close to the top of the heap when it comes to meatbag builds. Yes, you can be rendered irrelevant by epic spellcasting, but hopefully the rest of the players don't understand the epic spellcasting rules enough to turn the game into Advanced Calvinball, or the DM is sharp enough to shut down the most egregious shenanigans. If it looks like your character is incapable of contributing, take the DM aside and point this out as a balance issue.

If you can't get the magic items you need, take the Ancestral Relic feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) and make your own. You can sacrifice loot to it on a 1:1 ratio without having to bother with Craft Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.

[Fouredged Sword]

Seek out a dragon of legendary spell knowledge (spellhoarding dragon) and offter it a tithe of scrolls and arcane books in return for it taking a scroll of wish and inscribing it onto it's scales 31 times. It then uses 30 of those as scrolls (bypassing the exp requirement due to spellhoarding dragons being able to use their spellscales as scrolls at writting spells into a spellbook cost) to give you a +5 inherent bonus to all stats.

[GrayDeath]

What are your feats and skills so far?

As mentioned above, getting into master of the 9 is THE way to go for an Initiator...even if youa re late to the party.

Although, is retraining an option? If so, just retrain a level or to Swordsage (Warblades DO ahve a lot of Martial Lore and with your Level finding an Instructor should be easy) tog et the encessary other class skills/Maneuvers and Feats, and voila, you get more maneuvers.


However, if your DM is SO oldschool that he ignores WBL (no buying stuff you need) and common sense (saying a LEvel 20 Character would not know about items making hims tronger existing)....I shudder to think of how Epic Play will look.
Mayha point out to him what was said in this thread, nicely, and hope for the best? ^^

[Fouredged Sword]

Eh, i would take swordsage 1 at level 21, then MOT9 FOR 22-26. Warblade 20 is good enough to stick with the class till 20. Double stances (and triple with mot9) os really powerful with some pairings.

I would go with feral death blow (fort save or die every other round) and mountain tombstone (flat 2d6 no save con is great for high hd monsters).

[Jarmen4u]

That's an absurd premise. This is an epic character, with 20 levels under his belt. He would have spent years adventuring alongside powerful wizards, and seen similarly powerful heroes/villains using such spells and items. He would know that such spells and items existed, and have a list of powerful spellcaster allies he could call on for assistance.

A Warblade 20 is very close to the top of the heap when it comes to meatbag builds. Yes, you can be rendered irrelevant by epic spellcasting, but hopefully the rest of the players don't understand the epic spellcasting rules enough to turn the game into Advanced Calvinball, or the DM is sharp enough to shut down the most egregious shenanigans. If it looks like your character is incapable of contributing, take the DM aside and point this out as a balance issue.

If you can't get the magic items you need, take the Ancestral Relic feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) and make your own. You can sacrifice loot to it on a 1:1 ratio without having to bother with Craft Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.

Fortunately, there isn't a lot of high-op as far as I can tell, so I'm not terribly worried about being outclassed by epic spellcasting from my party members, mostly just from enemies. And as for Ancestral Relic, the two problems I see with that are 1. Finding a reliable source of loot, and 2. Whether I'd be allowed to design the item myself.


Seek out a dragon of legendary spell knowledge (spellhoarding dragon) and offter it a tithe of scrolls and arcane books in return for it taking a scroll of wish and inscribing it onto it's scales 31 times. It then uses 30 of those as scrolls (bypassing the exp requirement due to spellhoarding dragons being able to use their spellscales as scrolls at writting spells into a spellbook cost) to give you a +5 inherent bonus to all stats.

With the setting the way it is, we rarely find any established civilizations outside of the one that the main group came from. And the leader of that city is named "Dragonslayer." Also, dragons in this game aren't inherently good, or rather, a "good" dragon isn't the same thing as a "good" person. A dragon being good just means they'll let you speak before they eat you. So, all of those obstacles might prevent me from doing this. It's a good idea though, and I'll probably try to use that in a separate game.


Eh, i would take swordsage 1 at level 21, then MOT9 FOR 22-26. Warblade 20 is good enough to stick with the class till 20. Double stances (and triple with mot9) os really powerful with some pairings.

I would go with feral death blow (fort save or die every other round) and mountain tombstone (flat 2d6 no save con is great for high hd monsters).

I currently have both FDB and MTS, so I'm good there. When I play ToB, I usually go swordsage, so I might like having access to shadow hand again.


What are your feats and skills so far?

As mentioned above, getting into master of the 9 is THE way to go for an Initiator...even if youa re late to the party.

Although, is retraining an option? If so, just retrain a level or to Swordsage (Warblades DO ahve a lot of Martial Lore and with your Level finding an Instructor should be easy) tog et the encessary other class skills/Maneuvers and Feats, and voila, you get more maneuvers.


However, if your DM is SO oldschool that he ignores WBL (no buying stuff you need) and common sense (saying a LEvel 20 Character would not know about items making hims tronger existing)....I shudder to think of how Epic Play will look.
Mayha point out to him what was said in this thread, nicely, and hope for the best? ^^

Check the original post, I have my character sheet linked there. Retraining isn't an option as far as I know; I could reroll a character, but it would have to be much lower level.

As for the DM, he's old school enough to claim that he knew Gygax at some point, and that G "borrowed" some ideas from him when my DM used to write TTRPGs during his time the Army. So WBL doesn't really apply. I have a cursed artifact for a weapon(OoC I know that rolling a 1 means I go Frenzied Berserker on everyone in line of sight), a Glamered mithral breastplate(to look sexy), a Rod of Lordly Might, a +4 str belt, and a ring of Greater Wishes (also cursed, only 2 wishes left). Did I mention I'm cursed?

[GrayDeath]

Well, I dont know if I would be willing to play an Epic Game with someone ignoring just about half the rules that make noncaster Characters strong (Wealth!), but thats your decision.

No matter if he knew Gygax in the Army or whatever, playing by the rules should be obvious. If he does not, do you guys get any advantages to bypass you7r horrible poorness at least? ^^

You do fulfill all the encessary SKill prerequit´sites for 4 Discipline Class skills, so all you would need wpould be to either retrain a level or 2 and/or spend more to get the feats you need.

Just ask him,a fter all, if his arguments are a smuch "realism based (TM" as it seems, finding an isntructor and spendign some time finding enlightenment ((ergo retraining 2 or 3 levels to Swordsage and then entering Master of the 9) should fit. :)

[Jarmen4u]

Well, I dont know if I would be willing to play an Epic Game with someone ignoring just about half the rules that make noncaster Characters strong (Wealth!), but thats your decision.

No matter if he knew Gygax in the Army or whatever, playing by the rules should be obvious. If he does not, do you guys get any advantages to bypass you7r horrible poorness at least? ^^

You do fulfill all the encessary SKill prerequit´sites for 4 Discipline Class skills, so all you would need wpould be to either retrain a level or 2 and/or spend more to get the feats you need.

Just ask him,a fter all, if his arguments are a smuch "realism based (TM" as it seems, finding an isntructor and spendign some time finding enlightenment ((ergo retraining 2 or 3 levels to Swordsage and then entering Master of the 9) should fit. :)

Yeah, if I lose this character I'm probably going to do some combination of War Weaver+Incantatrix to buff the **** out of everyone.

Like I said before though, so far the casters in our game haven't been terribly optimized anyway, and with the exception of maybe the two PCs that the part time DMs play(because they've played for longer so are much higher level) I'm at least even with everyone else. Everyone else is similarly restricted by wealth, and though we often find "unidentified items," they use old fashioned identifiy rules, which require you to use the item as part of the process. So if it's cursed, you get cursed, if it's deadly, you die, etc. We actually have a decent amount of unidentified items in a cache, but nobody's dumb enough to try them out. But I digress.

I'll try to talk to him about retraining, or maybe just taking a level in Swordsage to get into Mo9. Though, I'm still on the fence about Bloodstorm Blade, the fluff of that class is really cool.

[Drelua]

Like I said before though, so far the casters in our game haven't been terribly optimized anyway, and with the exception of maybe the two PCs that the part time DMs play(because they've played for longer so are much higher level) I'm at least even with everyone else. Everyone else is similarly restricted by wealth, and though we often find "unidentified items," they use old fashioned identifiy rules, which require you to use the item as part of the process. So if it's cursed, you get cursed, if it's deadly, you die, etc.

Okay, this doesn't sound like a great time to me, but if you want to identify this stuff, here's what I'd do; pay a commoner more money than he's ever seen to try it. Just a few hundred gold should do. If you're trying to be good people, make sure they fully understand the risks and promise to do your best to undo anything bad that happens to them, including a raise dead if necessary. You should have access to enough spells to undo almost anything a cursed item would do, unless your DM's being unreasonably mean.

[Jarmen4u]

Okay, this doesn't sound like a great time to me, but if you want to identify this stuff, here's what I'd do; pay a commoner more money than he's ever seen to try it. Just a few hundred gold should do. If you're trying to be good people, make sure they fully understand the risks and promise to do your best to undo anything bad that happens to them, including a raise dead if necessary. You should have access to enough spells to undo almost anything a cursed item would do, unless your DM's being unreasonably mean.

That's not actually a terrible idea! The only thing I could see go wrong would be if we couldn't tell that anything was wrong with the NPC, or if the curse/magic was more subtle. I'll definitely keep this in mind, though.

[Troacctid]

Oh, I guess there is actually a feat that makes you immune to mind-affecting, if you don't mind going evil. Deformity (Madness) from Elder Evils is a Vile feat that gives you a permanent -4 penalty to Wisdom in exchange for immunity to mind-affecting. You can also use an immediate action once per minute to gain a bonus equal to half your level on a single Will save. Requires Willing Deformity as a prerequisite. Alternately, Insane Defiance is another Vile feat from the same book that allows you to use an immediate action and take 1 point of Wisdom damage when you're targeted by a mind-affecting effect and change the target to another creature of your choice within range, giving them a -4 penalty on their save against it.

If you're evil and you know of the existence of any Elder Evil, you could theoretically swear your service to it to get bonus vile feats (Elder Evils, page 10), although that sort of thing has a tendency to throw the plot for a curveball.

[Jarmen4u]

Oh, I guess there is actually a feat that makes you immune to mind-affecting, if you don't mind going evil. Deformity (Madness) from Elder Evils is a Vile feat that gives you a permanent -4 penalty to Wisdom in exchange for immunity to mind-affecting. You can also use an immediate action once per minute to gain a bonus equal to half your level on a single Will save. Requires Willing Deformity as a prerequisite. Alternately, Insane Defiance is another Vile feat from the same book that allows you to use an immediate action and take 1 point of Wisdom damage when you're targeted by a mind-affecting effect and change the target to another creature of your choice within range, giving them a -4 penalty on their save against it.

If you're evil and you know of the existence of any Elder Evil, you could theoretically swear your service to it to get bonus vile feats (Elder Evils, page 10), although that sort of thing has a tendency to throw the plot for a curveball.

Damn, that's really interesting. I'm Lawful Neutral so that wouldn't work, and evil is punished with extreme prejudice in this campaign (again due to influence from older systems), so I'll keep it in mind, but I don't think I could use it realistically, unless I could forever have a false alignment on me. I know there's Undetectable Alignment, but is there a way to actually spoof a Good alignment?

[Troacctid]

Damn, that's really interesting. I'm Lawful Neutral so that wouldn't work, and evil is punished with extreme prejudice in this campaign (again due to influence from older systems), so I'll keep it in mind, but I don't think I could use it realistically, unless I could forever have a false alignment on me. I know there's Undetectable Alignment, but is there a way to actually spoof a Good alignment?
A misdirection spell can do it, but you need a good-aligned partner in crime.

Edit: Mask of Gentility from Exemplars of Evil will also cause you to register as neutral.