Positive Executive Meddling

[S@tanicoaldo]

So, everyone hates Executive Meddling, we want artists to be free and allow their wild imagination to go wild and unrestrained.

But6 I'm starting to think that sometimes Executive Meddling can be good, I know they changes dumb things and give silly titles but it can be a positive thing... Sometimes.

Hear me out here think about the end of the Dark phoenix saga, Jean grey's death was a direct order from Jim Shooter againts the wishes of the writer Chris Claremont, and everyone has to agree that her detah made the ending a lot deeper and more interesting.

Or how about Carlo Collodi? If it was'nt for his editor our dear wooden boy would end up dead and the story would be 20 chapters shorter and probrably not as famous.

So do you guys know any other moment where the executive meddling was not such a bad thing?

[DomaDoma]

Just two phrases:

1. Mother knows best.
2. Golfer knows best.

Of course, writer knew best eventually, but it took like sixteen more years than he thought he had in him.

[Darth Ultron]

Star Trek might count. The Pilot ''The Cage'' was rejected and they made ''Where no man has gone before''. The Cage was ''too cerebral'', and they were right that the ''Mom and Pops'' out in TV land. If Star Trek had stuck with the ''cerebral'' stuff, it likely would not have been a hit.

I think ''They'' forced poor Joss Wheaton to have a ''space hooker'' on Firefly...and really is a Great Character.

[comicshorse]

'Dad's Army', a comedy about the British Home guard set in WW2 (for those non-brits). The creators wanted the introduction credits to show actual footage of refugee's fleeing from their homes as the German army advanced. The Executive in charge thought that would be distasteful in a comedy. I'm with the Executive all the way (Though both creators did actually serve in the British army during WW2)


Also 'The Thin Red Line'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Red_Line_(1998_film)

If ever a film needed some executive meddling.......

[Kitten Champion]

The only one I can think of because it was on SF Debris' review, was Star Trek: Insurrection. A studio executive reviewing the script had some pointed concerns about the Baaku and the logic behind the central conceit of the movie, one's that someone writing science fiction should probably care about but the stereotypical studio executives would've ignored.

Of course if you've had the displeasure of seeing Insurrection you know the executive's concerns were ultimately left unaddressed and the creative side got their way. So, it can only be said it made the movie better in retrospect that at least some of the people behind it were cognizant of what was wrong with it.

[Reddish Mage]

The best example I heard was “Alien.” The original had the Alien killing Ripley. (http://ew.com/movies/2017/04/03/alien-ridley-scott-alternate-ending/). The alternative ending would have replaced Ripley distress call with one being placed by the Captain’s voice, only we’d zoom in and see its really the Alien mimicking him.

The studio wouldn’t let Ridley Scott do it however, because it went against formula. The horror story formula requires there be left alive a “final girl.” The final girl is supposed to suggest there is some hope and someone to tell the story. The studios (very angry) insistence on a tired worn formula is what got us “Aliens” and the idea of Ripley as a badass.

[Kyberwulf]

I am not sure.. but I think they are the reasons we got three lord of the rings movies.

It's hard to know though, when they meddle for good or bad really

[rooster707]

Star Wars, maybe? I mean, we all saw what happens when George Lucas got to do whatever he wanted without any restrictions...

[Keltest]

Star Wars, maybe? I mean, we all saw what happens when George Lucas got to do whatever he wanted without any restrictions...
I'm not sure it counts if the executives are also people who are themselves helping to create the movie beyond just funding it.

[Chromascope3D]

Dragon Ball's Cell Saga was almost entirely created by editorial meddling, and a lot of people (myself included) consider it to be the peak of the series.

[Dienekes]

The Godfather. The original version of the movie was apparently much longer and less visceral. The Studio, pestered Coppola consistently about cutting side plots and adding more action beats. And while Paramount really does come across as a bunch of overbearing asses that were on the verge of firing Coppola throughout the entire process. The original screening was apparently widely disliked, Coppola was given a few weeks to add the action beats and cut out the needless clutter. And he did and ended up making one of the greatest movies of all time.

[shadow_archmagi]

Dragon Ball's Cell Saga was almost entirely created by editorial meddling, and a lot of people (myself included) consider it to be the peak of the series.

Tell me more!

[Prime32]

Dragon Ball's Cell Saga was almost entirely created by editorial meddling, and a lot of people (myself included) consider it to be the peak of the series.
Ah, yes. The Android/Cell Sagas were great because the characters spent so much time being thrown off-balance and having no idea what was going on.

"And so the story ends, with Goku becoming the legendary Super Saiyan and defeating Freeza, the strongest and most evil being in the universe."
"Okay, now write the continuation."
"...I am another Super Saiyan, from the future! Two Androids are coming who are stronger than Freeza!"
"These Androids look stupid"
"Wait, these aren't the Androids?! Oh no, they escaped and released the real Androids, plus a third Android we didn't even know about!"
"You can't have multiple villains at once, especially ones with as little motivation as these guys."
"Why is there another time machine and why is it covered in my blood? Oh God, what is that thing?! We have to protect the Androids from it!"
"This is taking too long. Have him absorb one of the Androids already."
"Behold, my Semi-Perfect form!"
"...I'm going to pretend that character design doesn't exist. Fix it. Right now."
"Hey Vegeta, I bet if I was perfect you couldn't beat me." "You're on."
"Say, when was the last time we had a tournament arc? Shonen audiences like tournament arcs."

[Sapphire Guard]

The thing about positive executive meddling is that we never see the result, so it's hard to tell what becomes good or bad. We now don't get to see Colin Trevorrow's Episode 9, but because it hasn't seen the light of day, there's no way to know if its positive or not.

[Giggling Ghast]

One more infamous example of Positive Meddling was with Kevin Smith's Clerks. As many people know, Smith originally ended the film with Dante being shot in a convenience store robbery. It was perhaps a realistic ending, but it was jarring and didn't fit the tone of the film. Smith's mentors —*not precisely executives, but as close as we're going to get in a low-budget student film — approached him after seeing the first cut and convinced him to change it.


Ah, yes. The Android/Cell Sagas were great because the characters spent so much time being thrown off-balance and having no idea what was going on.

"And so the story ends, with Goku becoming the legendary Super Saiyan and defeating Freeza, the strongest and most evil being in the universe."
"Okay, now write the continuation."
"...I am another Super Saiyan, from the future! Two Androids are coming who are stronger than Freeza!"
"These Androids look stupid"
"Wait, these aren't the Androids?! Oh no, they escaped and released the real Androids, plus a third Android we didn't even know about!"
"You can't have multiple villains at once, especially ones with as little motivation as these guys."
"Why is there another time machine and why is it covered in my blood? Oh God, what is that thing?! We have to protect the Androids from it!"
"This is taking too long. Have him absorb one of the Androids already."
"Behold, my Semi-Perfect form!"
"...I'm going to pretend that character design doesn't exist. Fix it. Right now."
"Hey Vegeta, I bet if I was perfect you couldn't beat me." "You're on."
"Say, when was the last time we had a tournament arc? Shonen audiences like tournament arcs."


Sarcasm aside, a lot of North American fans view Cell as their favourite DBZ villain, not Frieza.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Basically Sam Peckinpah's entire career is defined by Positive Executive Meddling. Unless you like the idea of sitting through 5-6 hour movies.

[Keltest]

Basically Sam Peckinpah's entire career is defined by Positive Executive Meddling. Unless you like the idea of sitting through 5-6 hour movies.

I watch the extended editions of the Lord of the Rings straight through on a fairly regular basis. While I wouldn't watch a 5 hour movie very frequently, it certainly isn't beyond the realm of possibility, as long as its a good 5 hour movie.

[Prime32]

Sarcasm aside, a lot of North American fans view Cell as their favourite DBZ villain, not Frieza.That wasn't sarcasm. The confusion was good because it made Cell scarier.

[Giggling Ghast]

Another positive example of Executive Meddling was with Army of Darkness. The original ending had Ash sleep too long and wake up in a post-apocalyptic England, but test audiences hated it and the executives wanted a more positive ending. Which is how we got the infinitely quotable theatrical ending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyFjcXZP7A


That wasn't sarcasm. The confusion was good because it made Cell scarier.

Oh. No offence intended, but I thought you were mocking the chaotic nature of the Cell saga.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Star Trek The Next Generation: The pilot episode encounter at far point was originally just visiting the station. The Execs wanted a two-hour premier event so The Q-Plot was tacked on.


Executives ask for a younger teenage batman show with the caped crusader still in high school. We got Batman Beyond.


Executive meddling on Kid's Next Door gave us the 2x4 technology rather then traditional looking high tech gadgets.


In the movie Tremors, executives wanted Michael Gross for the role of Burt Gummer... who is now probably more important to the film series then the Graboids.

I can not even begin to go into what was removed from Zootopia by executive meddling.

[Giggling Ghast]

I can not even begin to go into what was removed from Zootopia by executive meddling.

An uncomfortable scene where the bunny and the fox encounter other animals who like to dress in really creepy human costumes and have sex with each other? :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

Star Trek The Next Generation: The pilot episode encounter at far point was originally just visiting the station. The Execs wanted a two-hour premier event so The Q-Plot was tacked on.

So they're the ones to blame for Q's existence. Good to know.

[Rogar Demonblud]

An uncomfortable scene where the bunny and the fox encounter other animals who like to dress in really creepy human costumes and have sex with each other? :smalltongue:

More like no Judy, slave collars for predators and a generally dystopian view of everything.

[Cikomyr]

So they're the ones to blame for Q's existence. Good to know.

Even if you dislike Q, his plot was 99% of what was good about the pilot. And it aint much.


Star Wars, maybe? I mean, we all saw what happens when George Lucas got to do whatever he wanted without any restrictions...

There is a video about "the magic of editing" Star Wars on YouTube. It explains that it was Spielberg & [someone else] who pointed out to GL that his movie sucked. And it was GL's ex wife who saved the flick by editing scenes around to make them movie just plain better overall.

[Jay R]

The original script for "The City on the Edge of Forever" had Kirk abandoning the Enterprise for her. Might be a good story, but that's not Kirk.

[Ebon_Drake]

David Bowie's record label complained that Ziggy Stardust didn't have a proper lead single on it. So he wrote Starman.

[Metahuman1]

More like no Judy, slave collars for predators and a generally dystopian view of everything.

Ya know, lately, I wouldn't trust Disney to do it, but someone like that doing a kids movie in that vein could be very interesting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you want some interesting kids' fare, see if you can find streams of Exo-Squad or Roughneck Chronicles, cartoons from the bygone days of our collective childhoods that dealt with war, death, genocide, famine and other lovely things. Just what you want the kids imbibing with their Cocoa Puffs.

[Reddish Mage]

Star Trek The Next Generation: The pilot episode encounter at far point was originally just visiting the station. The Execs wanted a two-hour premier event so The Q-Plot was tacked on.


Executive meddling on Kid's Next Door gave us the 2x4 technology rather then traditional looking high tech gadgets.

I'm not sure the Q-plot was all that great actually. An encounter at Farpoint (literally some drama at Farpoint station) might have actually worked better for showing how the crew respond to a more traditional obstacle.

I would note that 2x4 technology sounds pretty innovative and creative in an odd-ball left-field sort of way....which makes me seriously doubt that marketing executives would be behind it.

Every other example we have of executive meddling falls into narrow and very conventional sorts of categories of suggestions. There is 1) Sticking to formula 2) bringing in something aimed to appeal to the target demographic 3) add something trendy, faddish, or cliche and 4) hire a star. Ah and the all pervasive 5) censoring potentially offensive material or portrayals.

Those things are literally all i see, including in this thread where the changes are allegedly all positive, including below we they Zootopia was clearly being "Disneyified."


More like no Judy, slave collars for predators and a generally dystopian view of everything.

My understanding was there were no collars except at the "taming ceremony" for predators where they were shock collars. Actually...I think your version might be less riske.

I haven't heard that Judy was an executive invention, or that there was a dystopian feel running throughout (and certainly how they would have written a script that handled that dystopia).

[Drascin]

Oh. No offence intended, but I thought you were mocking the chaotic nature of the Cell saga.

In fairness, Toriyama's chaotic writing is easy to mock. He himself has admitted that often when he writes a chapter he honestly has no idea where he's going or what will happen in the next one. One anecdote was him pointing out the times he turned in a fifteen page chapter and then sat down with the editor in the same room to think up what could happen next.

The fact that Cell Saga ended up being a lot of people's favorite because the writer did not care about a plotline is actually pretty amusing, after all.

[Metahuman1]

If you want some interesting kids' fare, see if you can find streams of Exo-Squad or Roughneck Chronicles, cartoons from the bygone days of our collective childhoods that dealt with war, death, genocide, famine and other lovely things. Just what you want the kids imbibing with their Cocoa Puffs.

I'm a little familiar with the first one, but not the second one at all. I do remember hearing something about Invasion America having some similar stuff once upon a time. I've never seen the show, just heard that it exists and it apparently was very, mature, shall we say?

Know anything about it? Or about this Roughneck Chronicles (I've literally only heard of this one now, from you, for the first time.)?


I was referring to something were in the idea of them being treated this way, because other people were responding with feelings rather than with even a little actual logic, even the academics or journalist or political types whom should know better, would be good to expose them too. Sort of a cautionary tale if you will.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Know anything about... ...this Roughneck Chronicles (I've literally only heard of this one now, from you, for the first time.)?

It was a 3D animated series following in the footsteps of the Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers movie, as a sort of alternative thing to watch for people who liked the book. I'm not sure they were really aiming at kids (in contrast to say Watership Down or The Animals of Farthing Wood, which are full on kids stuff except with characters dying messily all the time), but the plots are simple enough that they certainly could watch it. There are some kind of interesting bits in it, like a robot with an existential moment. I think I watched all of it at some point, so it must have been entertaining in one way or another.

It is not to be confused with the later 3D animated movies made as part 4 and 5 in the Starship Troopers series. Part 5 in particular is pretty good (and suffers less from wooden animation than either part 4 or the Roughneck Chronicles), but neither of those movies is aimed at kids. They're also set in the Verhoeven canon, while Chronicles is its own thing.

[Ramza00]

Star Wars, maybe? I mean, we all saw what happens when George Lucas got to do whatever he wanted without any restrictions...

Yes Star Wars is a prime example

How Star Wars (A New Hope) was saved in the Edit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk


There is a video about "the magic of editing" Star Wars on YouTube. It explains that it was Spielberg & [someone else] who pointed out to GL that his movie sucked. And it was GL's ex wife who saved the flick by editing scenes around to make them movie just plain better overall.

Nods, I just provided the video link, but yeah echoing what Cikomyr said.

[Anonymouswizard]

Know anything about it? Or about this Roughneck Chronicles (I've literally only heard of this one now, from you, for the first time.)?

The actual name is Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles. I very much enjoyed it, it's not exactly a kid's series but it's not too complex for them. As the name suggests it's an adaptation of Starship Troopers.

The bugs have the six limbed designs from the film (literally exactly the same but lower quality animation) instead of the eight legged design from the book (why do you think they were psuedo-arachnids?). Bugs also don't have the technology that the book versions have, although they do have a wider array of types and even gigantic spaceship bugs. You do get to see the development of different 'types' throughout the series, the original flying bugs are replaced by a less armoured version that can engage at range fairly early on, and there's a bug type that gets a major upgrade near the end of the series.

The powered armour from the book doesn't exist. There is powered armour, but it's treated as more of a environment suit with jetpack, the characters ditch the full version whenever they're operating where the don't need protection from the environment. On the plus side there are two big mecha designs that give the users most of the abilities of book troopers, but the protagonist squad only has one or two at most. Pretty much all the controversial bits of the book's society are gone, but that works in the show's favour as it's focused entirely on the military. Giving the entire 'service or no citizenship' bit from the books would weaken the focus.

It also changes planet roughly every five episodes, and the last four episodes were never made. The current ending actually works though, being a massive cliffhanger with a 'how can they possibly survive' situation, I think showing the humans winning would make for a less satisfactory ending. So remember to start with Pluto and work your way through the 'campaigns', the DVDs were not released in episode order (I've not seen an entire campaign because of it).

[Cikomyr]

Yes Star Wars is a prime example

How Star Wars (A New Hope) was saved in the Edit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk



Nods, I just provided the video link, but yeah echoing what Cikomyr said.

*Respectful nod*

[Cikomyr]

In fairness, Toriyama's chaotic writing is easy to mock. He himself has admitted that often when he writes a chapter he honestly has no idea where he's going or what will happen in the next one. One anecdote was him pointing out the times he turned in a fifteen page chapter and then sat down with the editor in the same room to think up what could happen next.

The fact that Cell Saga ended up being a lot of people's favorite because the writer did not care about a plotline is actually pretty amusing, after all.

Look. There are some works that are great because they reach a big, cohesive thematic arc that feeds itself at more steps of the way. See Babylon 5. Or The Expanse.

Other works are great because its only about the next plot point, the next episode, the next chapter. You live in the moment, and you forget quickly what happened before because it does not really impact the story.

I appreciate more the first kind of work on an intellectual level. But on a visceral level, either can be as entertaining and pleasing. Its just sometimes disapointing when you realize that what you though was Story Type A turned out to be Type B. Like Fringe. Or BSG.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm not sure they were really aiming at kids.

They were trying to sell toys. They were definitely aimed at kids.

[Keltest]

They were trying to sell toys. They were definitely aimed at kids.

What the promotional department will try to do with a media is not necessarily related to what the actual writers of that media are doing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They were trying to sell toys. They were definitely aimed at kids.

Robocop (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093870/) was a Paul Verhoeven R-rated film. Paul Verhoeven wasn't aiming that film at kids.

Didn't stop the toys from being made:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlSB-7wb5ys

I.e. just because they made toys, you can't conclude that the original material was aimed at kids.

That said, the fact it was an animated cartoon (I believe with minimal gore?) suggests it, and the toy line it went with, was probably aimed at kids, even if the film (and the book the film borrowed its title from) were not.

Grey Wolf

[Necroticplague]

I recall reading that Deadpool originally had some pacing problems that were solved when the executives slashed their budget, forcing them to consolidate characters and cut out some unneeded scenes, incidentally improving the flow and adding a few jokes (the ‘cant Afford another x-man’ that was literally true, and leaving his guns in the cab because they didn’t have the budget for a dramatic shootout.).

[Velaryon]

David Bowie's record label complained that Ziggy Stardust didn't have a proper lead single on it. So he wrote Starman.

I'm unable to find a citation at the moment, but something similar happened with Dio's first solo album Holy Diver. He did not want to include "Rainbow in the Dark" because he thought it was too mainstream-sounding. I'm not sure whether it was studio execs or someone else that persuaded him to put it on the album, but it's one of his biggest hits ever and arguably one of the greatest metal songs of all time.

[Zmeoaice]

Definitely when the premise of "The Loud House". Originally the characters were going to be rabbits and there were 26 siblings instead of 11. We got a small taste of the original vision in a recent episode.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/theloudhouse/images/8/82/S3E02A_Rabbit_sisters.png/revision/latest?cb=20180131224521

Besides the fact that without hair and different facial structure it's difficult to tell them apart, having this many characters will make it impossible for them to be fleshed out in an episode. Decent single episode concept but not something I'd want as a series.

[Metahuman1]

The actual name is Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles. I very much enjoyed it, it's not exactly a kid's series but it's not too complex for them. As the name suggests it's an adaptation of Starship Troopers.

The bugs have the six limbed designs from the film (literally exactly the same but lower quality animation) instead of the eight legged design from the book (why do you think they were psuedo-arachnids?). Bugs also don't have the technology that the book versions have, although they do have a wider array of types and even gigantic spaceship bugs. You do get to see the development of different 'types' throughout the series, the original flying bugs are replaced by a less armoured version that can engage at range fairly early on, and there's a bug type that gets a major upgrade near the end of the series.

The powered armour from the book doesn't exist. There is powered armour, but it's treated as more of a environment suit with jetpack, the characters ditch the full version whenever they're operating where the don't need protection from the environment. On the plus side there are two big mecha designs that give the users most of the abilities of book troopers, but the protagonist squad only has one or two at most. Pretty much all the controversial bits of the book's society are gone, but that works in the show's favour as it's focused entirely on the military. Giving the entire 'service or no citizenship' bit from the books would weaken the focus.

It also changes planet roughly every five episodes, and the last four episodes were never made. The current ending actually works though, being a massive cliffhanger with a 'how can they possibly survive' situation, I think showing the humans winning would make for a less satisfactory ending. So remember to start with Pluto and work your way through the 'campaigns', the DVDs were not released in episode order (I've not seen an entire campaign because of it).

Interesting:


Now that I think about it, wasn't there also a Battletech Animated series that ran in a similar vein around the same time?

[Fri]

I can confirm that Roughneck Chronicles is the best thing that ever got out of Starship Troopers name. It combines the best part of the movie and the best part of the book, and reducing the worst part of either. The only thing that I could say does not age well is the animation, which is expected, but if you can ignore that part, it's still well worth watching for fans of military sci-fi.

I usually put it in "surprisingly good adaptation" alongside Extreme Ghostbuster and, slightly underneath it, Godzilla the animated series (Extreme Ghostbuster is in the top of my list because it has *all* the combination of things that make it a bad adaptation, that if you explain the premise, people would think it IS a bad adaptation. It's hard to describe it without making it sounds like a bad 90s adaptation.)

[Bohandas]

Another positive example of Executive Meddling was with Army of Darkness. The original ending had Ash sleep too long and wake up in a post-apocalyptic England, but test audiences hated it and the executives wanted a more positive ending. Which is how we got the infinitely quotable theatrical ending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyFjcXZP7A

I've seen both endings and agree that this is the better one, but it does bother me that that deadite hasn't been dismsmbered, burned, or buried

[Bohandas]

Definitely when the premise of "The Loud House". Originally the characters were going to be rabbits

Personally I think that sounds better. The version we got is kind of grating,

[The Glyphstone]

Interesting:


Now that I think about it, wasn't there also a Battletech Animated series that ran in a similar vein around the same time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series

Predates the Roughnecks by 6 years, apparently.

[Xyril]

I watch the extended editions of the Lord of the Rings straight through on a fairly regular basis. While I wouldn't watch a 5 hour movie very frequently, it certainly isn't beyond the realm of possibility, as long as its a good 5 hour movie.

I'm with you here. In terms of making good movies, cutting for time didn't hurt substantially, but it didn't help either. In terms of financial success, it would have been a hard sell, even for a beloved literary franchise backed by a huge studio, to get theatres on board. While it's not impossible that a more limited release would have still resulted in a similar amount of hype and subsequent DVD sales, it's far from a certainty.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I take it none of you have ever watched a Peckinpah film. I'm not sure if I should envy you or recommend Major Dundee or The Wild Bunch.

[Dorath]

Another positive example of Executive Meddling was with Army of Darkness. The original ending had Ash sleep too long and wake up in a post-apocalyptic England, but test audiences hated it and the executives wanted a more positive ending. Which is how we got the infinitely quotable theatrical ending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eyFjcXZP7A

The new ending was happier, but the original is more consistent with Ash's character.

[No brains]

I usually put it in "surprisingly good adaptation" alongside Extreme Ghostbuster and, slightly underneath it, Godzilla the animated series (Extreme Ghostbuster is in the top of my list because it has *all* the combination of things that make it a bad adaptation, that if you explain the premise, people would think it IS a bad adaptation. It's hard to describe it without making it sounds like a bad 90s adaptation.)

Can you tell us about your list of "surprisingly good adaptations"? There's probably a good amount of executive compromise that made each of them work.

[Gnoman]

One that didn't have a happy ending but started off promising was the Negima manga. The executives wanted a Love Hina style comedy, while the artist wanted to make a fighting series. So he disguised his fighting series as a harem comedy, resulting in a brilliantly unique work.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes Star Wars is a prime example

How Star Wars (A New Hope) was saved in the Edit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk



Nods, I just provided the video link, but yeah echoing what Cikomyr said.

Editors are not the same thing as executives. Editing is an integral part of creative process. I think this video shows how vital editing is to a film. They mention that the film is made “three times” and one of those times is the edit, where they add in sound effects and finishing touches, as well as put in inserts and (at least sometimes) reassemble the film.

“Executive meddling” is really about marketing, corporate partners, or financial backers (or people internally managing those functions) bringing their input into the work itself.

I think their concerns have a specific mark to them basically their input boils down things along the lines of 1) Sticking to formula 2) bringing in something aimed to appeal to the target demographic 3) add something trendy, faddish, or cliche and 4) hire a star 5) censoring potentially offensive material or portrayals 6) sticking to budget.

Editors and other creatives actually understand the craft of film-making (or other media) and will offer richer guidance about making a work much more expressive. This is beyond the reach of people whose expertise is related to selling the work rather than make it.

[Ramza00]

Reddish Mage I agree for the most part but we may disagree with specifics.

Executive Meddling often works better at the start of the story, and not the end of the story during the editing part.

Executive Meddling often works best not with the details of the story, but instead telling "principles" as in first principles where they say I want to make sure these themes are covered so I have something I can market and inspire. Executive Meddling should be limited but it works best when it is a muse and there is a feedback and so on. During the brainstorming process where things are without form and we are exploring ideas.

But executive meddling also needs to have pushbacks from other people in the process such as the writers, the directors, the editors, and so on. It is all about creating a dynamic heterotopic space, and when one group either executive, director, writer, editor, and so on is too powerful we lose much of the dynamism that is necessary for group art which film is almost always a group art production instead of a solitary one.

-----

This is a different thing than having a dynamic heterotopia environment with creating art, but there is something called Harvard school of principled negotiation which is a form of conflict resolution. Many of these general rules should be engaged in dynamic environments such as film creating. Here are some of the major tenets.

1 "Separate the people from the problem"
2 "Focus on interests, not positions"
3 "Invent options for mutual gain"
4 "Insist on using objective criteria"
5 "Know your BATNA" (Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement)

-----

I understand where you are coming from Reddish Mage, I really do. Henry the VI has a line "Let's kill all the lawyers" which is both literal but also a double play where everyone knew that lawyers can be frustrating but they also serve a useful societal purpose even if individually they can be so PITA. And since Henry the 6th was a form of propaganda but also pointing out societal flaws as a well as the follies of human nature (it is one of the 5 part story of Shakespeare War of the Roses) the line and others are teaching moments.

Well I personally have my own version which is "Kill all the bankers" and also the accountants for to me bankers and accountants and "the meddlers" often the same frustration that others have for lawyers. BUt in the end we need these people too and the important thing is finding the right dynamic balance, and that is why I used the word heterotopia earlier, for true art imitates life, and life is also inspired by art for art allows us to create a seperate space, a mirror, where we are living but we are also living at a different time and space where we slow down and think and feel differently. A place that is both isolated yet at the same time penetrable and thus the small interference layer allows us to create a whole new seperate world separate from the outside world and our own internal world.

[Metahuman1]

Just happened to think of one.


There was an episode of Hey! Arnold! (A cartoon that ran in the USA on Nickelodeon Network in the 90's and early 2000's.), called Pigeon Man.


The shows title character makes friends with the episodes title character, a homeless man living in an abandoned building in new york, away form people.

Toward the end of the episode, his home get's wrecked by some of the other neighborhood kids.

And then, he gives a speech about not understanding humans to the shows title character, and with the help of his birds, he fly's off into the sunset. A sort of melancholy atmosphere permeating the ending.





This was changed by the executives form the original ending. The original ending was going to have the titular pigeon man jump form the buildings room in a completely successful, realistic, onscreen act of suicided in a moment of intense pain and depression. The executives decided that might be a bit more then the target audience could really cope with.

[S@tanicoaldo]

I just found out that rather then using dragons George R. R. Martin was planing on not having dragons on the song of ice and fire books, the targaryens were going to use smoke and mirror tor trick people intro thinking they had actual dragons.

His wife advised him to use dragons since dragons are so cool and he did.

It's true what they say, behind every great man there a great woman in special if your name is George :smallbiggrin:

[deuterio12]

I just found pout that rather then using dragons George R. R. Martin was paning on not having dragons on the song of ice and fire books, the targaryens were going to use smoke and mirror tor trick people intro thinking they had actual dragons.

His wife advised him to use dragons since dragons are so cool and he did.

It's true what they say, behind every great man there a great woman in special if your name is George :smallbiggrin:

I think things may've gone even better if they had gone with both ideas.

Like at the start the targaryens had real dragons once but now they're reduced to using smoke and mirror tricks, then when everybody else finds out that they're just tricks the rebellion happens. Then Daenerys gets real dragons again. And then people start using the smoke and mirror tricks again, so we have both real dragons and fake ones going around.

[Olinser]

The Godfather. The original version of the movie was apparently much longer and less visceral. The Studio, pestered Coppola consistently about cutting side plots and adding more action beats. And while Paramount really does come across as a bunch of overbearing asses that were on the verge of firing Coppola throughout the entire process. The original screening was apparently widely disliked, Coppola was given a few weeks to add the action beats and cut out the needless clutter. And he did and ended up making one of the greatest movies of all time.

Maybe it turned out well in the end, but that was coupled with very nearly some of the WORST executive meddling possible.

The suits tried to get Coppola to fire Al Pacino during filming (three different times, if Pacino is to be believed). Which would have been a disaster for the movie, Pacino's performance is a huge reason the movie was such a big hit.

On the whole, it seems to me that executive meddling DURING production is usually overwhelmingly negative. Executive meddling POST production, usually in reaction to test audiences, tends to be neutral to positive.

[Giggling Ghast]

I've seen both endings and agree that this is the better one, but it does bother me that that deadite hasn't been dismsmbered, burned, or buried

You can briefly “knock out” Deadites with mortal injuries. Case in point: Evil Ash.

Honestly, the whole Evil Dead series tends to run on Rule of Funny or Rule of Cool.

[Ibrinar]

Huh smoke and mirror dragons I think I would have found that disappointing in a setting that does have supernatural stuff, seems to fit a realistic setting more. On the other hand a world where there is supernatural stuff would also make smoke and mirrors more believable.


Basically Sam Peckinpah's entire career is defined by Positive Executive Meddling. Unless you like the idea of sitting through 5-6 hour movies.

Honestly one reason I tend to prefer series over movies are that movie length is too short to be really satisfying. Movies feel like novellas to me can be good but are limited by size. So depends on the content.

[JoshL]

My favorite movie of all time is Legend. The studio certainly helped that one. Originally, Ridley Scott had wanted a traditional orchestral score, and got one from Jerry Goldsmith. Usually a fine composer, but he kinda phoned it in on that, and most of it seems like music added to, rather than composed for (the dance scene is a particularly good one to compare and contrast). It was released in Europe, and didn't exactly blow anyone away.

The studio stepped in and got Tangerine Dream to record a more "pop" electronic score. Their music not only was composed tighter to the action, but had a dreamlike/otherworldly feel to it that made the film more unique. They made a few edits too, some good, some not (the version shown on tv in the 90s restored a couple scenes and is my favorite edit). Furthermore, the studio had Jon Anderson (of the band Yes) sing over the final piece of music, without consulting Tangerine Dream first. They were not pleased. But the end result is a wonderful song ("Loved By The Sun") and I wouldn't want the movie without it.

Doubly so after a Director's Cut was released, I can say I would still have liked the movie, but it wouldn't have been my favorite were it not for the studio's meddling.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Huh smoke and mirror dragons I think I would have found that disappointing in a setting that does have supernatural stuff, seems to fit a realistic setting more. On the other hand a world where there is supernatural stuff would also make smoke and mirrors more believable.

I think the original setting had no supernatural elements.

[Olinser]

I think the original setting had no supernatural elements.

In the books? No, it most definitely had supernatural elements, though they weren't super prevalent at the start.

Right at the start of the first book you had the wraiths, who had some variety of powers, and also in the first book when Melisandre was introduced she had some degree of magic abilities though we weren't given specifics.

Then Valyrian Steel was heavily implied to have some kind of magic required to forge it, which was why it couldn't be made anymore.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In the books? No, it most definitely had supernatural elements, though they weren't super prevalent at the start.

(I believe S@tanicoaldo meant "original setting" as in "before Parris [Martin's now-wife] convinced him to put dragons in (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23107102&postcount=56)", although I'm not sure what this assertion is based on - no interview I've ever read has mentioned this, although I'm hardly an expert)

GW

[Dienekes]

(I believe S@tanicoaldo meant "original setting" as in "before Parris [Martin's now-wife] convinced him to put dragons in (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23107102&postcount=56)", although I'm not sure what this assertion is based on - no interview I've ever read has mentioned this, although I'm hardly an expert)

GW

Dedication page of ASOS reads: For Phyllis, for making me put dragons in.

It should be noted, Phyllis is not his wife. She's a fantasy writer he respects who he was bouncing ideas off of when he first started planning out the series.