Fluffing a Finesse spear

[Crgaston]

This has been coalescing in my mind lately, and after reading some discussions here about fluff and Dex spears, I thought I’d throw this out there.

I have a backup character (Lore Bard) built for a current campaign who I envision wielding a spear rather than a short sword or rapier, primarily because I despise the aesthetic of a rapier on most of my characters.

Since bards are proficient in both short swords (1d6 piercing) and rapiers (1d8 piercing), AND a spear needs 2 hands to get the 1d8, it’s actually mechanically inferior to rapier and short sword since it is not useable for TWF without a feat, and doesn’t allow for a shield with the d8.

The only rules change needed, IMO, would be to require a Str Attack if it is thrown, so it would be a “half finesse” weapon.

Thoughts?

P.S. I know, ask my DM. I will and I’m pretty sure he’d be fine with it, seeing as we have firearms in the campaign. This is just for general discussion. My apologies if it’s been done before.

[Mikal]

Our thoughts don't matter, since it's the DMs decision as you pointed out.

If you just want to hear our opinions that literally mean nothing, I'd say take the mechanical hit and use a spear with strength.

[polymphus]

If you haven't started playing the character yet, why not just put the points into Strength instead of Dex?

[Naanomi]

I would refluff a rapier and say it was just too light to throw well, if the aesthetics were really necessary

[Tiadoppler]

If you're going to do this, I'd suggest to the DM that this modification to spears replaces your rapier/shortsword proficiency. Adding MeleeFinesse to a Spear improves it to the point that it'd be better as a Martial Melee Weapon rather than a Simple Melee Weapon, so it shouldn't be a free proficiency.

You'll have three different attack options to keep track of. That's a lot of versatility for one weapon type.
2H Melee DEX- 1d8
1H Melee DEX- 1d6
1H Ranged STR- 1d6


The reason I'm okay with this is that it's not a lot different from a Bard wielding a Rapier in one hand and having a quiver of Javelins to throw from the off-hand, but it's just fluffed as one weapon.
1H Melee DEX- 1d8
1H Ranged STR- 1d6



Rapier costs 25gp, Javelin costs 0.5gp.

I'd rule that a Finesse Spear costs 5gp. It's not as good as a Rapier in Melee. It's not as good as a Javelin at long range, but it kinda-sorta-maybe fits both categories.

[Flashy]

My answer as a DM would be sure, use the rapier stats and reskin it as a spear. It makes zero mechanical difference so what does it matter?

[Grod_The_Giant]

careful analysis
I second pretty much all of this. A finesse spear is fine as a martial weapon equivalency, and I can't see any particular advantage to being able to wield it in two hands instead of just one. (I mean, maaaaaybe a Rogue with a finesse spear and GWF style, but Sage Advice on how the style works nixes that idea anyway).

[rbstr]

Since bards are proficient in both short swords (1d6 piercing) and rapiers (1d8 piercing), AND a spear needs 2 hands to get the 1d8, it’s actually mechanically inferior to rapier and short sword since

That's because it's a Simple Weapon and the weapon table makes more sense than you think!

There's a pretty easy formula to determine weapon damage die.
You start with 1d6 for the melee weapon.
Then you add up the detriments and benefits of it's properties.

For each "detrimental" property go up a die size:
Greatsword - "martial", "heavy" and "two handed" are detrimental, go up three die sizes from d6 to get 2d6.
Longsword - "martial" to go from d6 to d8 and when you're using the "versatile" detriment you go up one die to a d10.

for each "beneficial" property go down a die size. (these are both "martial" as well +1 size)
Short Sword - "light" is beneficial so you go down to d6 from d8
Whip - "light" and "reach" down to d4

A glaive has a mixed set of properties:
deteriment: heavy, twohanded, martial
benefit: reach
So you get a total of +2 from the d6 - A d10.

Finesse is basically "extra" so it doesn't count for die. But you can't have it on anything that's heavy or two handed. There's also only one finesse simple weapon and I think that's probably for a reason. (thrown is an extra property too)

It doesn't work out completely (Trident in particular), but it covers most of it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's because it's a Simple Weapon and the weapon table makes more sense than you think!

There's a pretty easy formula to determine weapon damage die.
You start with 1d6 for the melee weapon.
Then you add up the detriments and benefits of it's properties.

For each "detrimental" property go up a die size:
Greatsword - "martial", "heavy" and "two handed" are detrimental, go up three die sizes from d6 to get 2d6.
Longsword - "martial" to go from d6 to d8 and when you're using the "versatile" detriment you go up one die to a d10.

for each "beneficial" property go down a die size.
Short Sword - "light" is beneficial so you go down to d6 from d8
Whip - "light" and "reach" down to d4

A glaive has a mixed set of properties:
deteriment: heavy, twohanded, martial
benefit: reach
So you get a total of +2 from the d6 - A d10.

Finesse is basically "extra" so it doesn't count for die. But you can't have it on anything that's heavy or two handed. There's also only one finesse simple weapon and I think that's probably for a reason. (thrown is an extra property too)

It doesn't work out completely (Trident in particular), but it covers most of it.

Where does a Greataxe fit into this? That damned 1d12.

[Tiadoppler]

That's because it's a Simple Weapon and the weapon table makes more sense than you think!


There's still some weirdness and flexibility.

A Quarterstaff is just plain better than a Mace.
A War Pick is just plain better than a Morningstar.
As mentioned, a Spear is just plain better than a Trident.
A Glaive and a Halberd are identical.

[Flashy]

You start with 1d6 for the melee weapon.

Greatsword - "martial", "heavy" and "two handed" are detrimental, go up three die sizes from d6 to get 2d6.

Short Sword - "light" is beneficial so you go down to d6 from d8

In addition to the things other people have pointed out your greatsword and shortsword examples are both starting at d8 rather than d6.

It’s also pretty easy to make the argument that heavy is a positive trait given that it’s required for GWM. “Can’t be used by halflings or gnomes” isn’t much of a downside, really.

I’m not convinced this system works as more than a very loose approximation.

[Tiadoppler]

In addition to the things other people have pointed out your greatsword and shortsword examples are both starting at d8 rather than d6.

It’s also pretty easy to make the argument that heavy is a positive trait given that it’s required for GWM. “Can’t be used by halflings or gnomes” isn’t much of a downside, really.

I’m not convinced this system works as more than a very loose approximation.

Yeah it's approximate.

Short Sword starts at d6. It has Martial (+1 die size) and Light (-1 die size) so it goes back to d6.
Greatsword starts at d6. It has Martial (+1 die size), Two-Handed (+1 die size), Heavy (+1 die size). That should bring it to d12, but gets an additional boost randomly.

[rbstr]

Where does a Greataxe fit into this? That damned 1d12.

From the formula's perspective it's the same as a 2d6, even if it's a bit worse statistically.
Really, 2d6 is the anomalous die "size" if we want to nitpick.


There's still some weirdness and flexibility.

A Quarterstaff is just plain better than a Mace.
A War Pick is just plain better than a Morningstar.
As mentioned, a Spear is just plain better than a Trident.
A Glaive and a Halberd are identical.

The only one of those that is actually a breakdown of the "weapon table formula" is the Spear/Trident. The Trident should be d8 and d10 versatile. I guess they thought d8 was too strong thrown?
Like, while glaive/haldber is redundant it's not "wrong" in terms of the damage/property balance.
Cost and weight are basically "fluff".
And so is the lack of versatile on Maces and Morningstars. These exist for character concepts. It's clear these weapons was intended since there's also the flail. The Warhammer is "better". I guess I also just don't count versatile as "better" anyway (and for balance/die size purposes it's only better when you use it so it all falls in line). But that's a whole rant.


In addition to the things other people have pointed out your greatsword and shortsword examples are both starting at d8 rather than d6.

No they don't. Being "martial" gives weapons an upgrade. It's a detrimental property and a large part of why Martial weapon proficiency is worth something.


It’s also pretty easy to make the argument that heavy is a positive trait given that it’s required for GWM. “Can’t be used by halflings or gnomes” isn’t much of a downside, really.

I’m not convinced this system works as more than a very loose approximation.
They said it was a detriment so it's a detriment for the purposes of the weapon table. The concept works with very few exceptions. You disagreeing with the design that's another thing entirely.

[Kane0]

1d8 Martial with one quality of your choice: versatile, thrown or finesse. Have one of each even, doesn't really matter all that much. If you want you can add in the two handed quality and pick a second one of your choice.
Then trade your Bardic sword proficiencies for the spears.

[Kuulvheysoon]

From the formula's perspective it's the same as a 2d6, even if it's a bit worse statistically.
Really, 2d6 is the anomalous die "size" if we want to nitpick.
I'd actually argue that 2d6 is the "assumed regular" step up, given as how there's only the one 1d12 weapon, yet there's two 2d6 weapons (greatsword and maul). But I'll give you that as a rough formula, it does work.

[Matrix_Walker]

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on creating a set of custom weapon statistics for a finesse spear.

Side note: Your terminology throws me a bit... As I understand the terms...

Fluff: Descriptive details without any mechanical impact on gameplay.
Crunch: Mechanics of the rules.


Sounds like you want to re-Crunch the spear, not re-Fluff it.

(Do I have that wrong?)

[Tiadoppler]

Sounds like you want to re-Crunch the spear, not re-Fluff it.

Re-Crunch the spear to a Finesse weapon, or Re-Fluff a Finesse weapon to look like a spear. At the end of the day, it's just a damage die and an ability score modifier.

[Eric Diaz]

Thoughts?

* JUST DO IT!
* Nothing breaks.
* You're not trying to benefit from it, you're just having fun.
* This game is meant to be fun, you're not getting in the way of anyone's fun.
* Do you like fun? Or do you prefer that gritty feeling of "in REAL medieval times nobody ever benefited from dexterity while wielding a spear!"?
*If I was your GM, I'd just add "finesse" to spears.
* Oberyn Martell is cool.

EDIT: also, why not just use the rapier as a short, one-handed spear?

[Blackbando]

I'd actually argue that 2d6 is the "assumed regular" step up, given as how there's only the one 1d12 weapon...

The lance says hi.

[danpit2991]

everything already said plus why in the heck isnt a spear a polearm (for PAM) and a freaking quarter staff is ??????????


and something like this might work

war spear
martial weapon
1d6 / 1d8 piercing
finesse versatile

due to this spear being optimized for melee combat it is a poor thrown weapon and when thrown attacks are made with disadvantage

[Crgaston]

Thanks for the insightful commentary and analysis! This has been most helpful in seeing where the balance points are.

[Malifice]

This has been coalescing in my mind lately, and after reading some discussions here about fluff and Dex spears, I thought I’d throw this out there.

I have a backup character (Lore Bard) built for a current campaign who I envision wielding a spear rather than a short sword or rapier, primarily because I despise the aesthetic of a rapier on most of my characters.

Since bards are proficient in both short swords (1d6 piercing) and rapiers (1d8 piercing), AND a spear needs 2 hands to get the 1d8, it’s actually mechanically inferior to rapier and short sword since it is not useable for TWF without a feat, and doesn’t allow for a shield with the d8.

The only rules change needed, IMO, would be to require a Str Attack if it is thrown, so it would be a “half finesse” weapon.

Thoughts?

P.S. I know, ask my DM. I will and I’m pretty sure he’d be fine with it, seeing as we have firearms in the campaign. This is just for general discussion. My apologies if it’s been done before.

Take a level of Monk.

Spears are Monk weapons. You get to use Dexterity to hit/ damage with them.

As an additional bonus, you also get to make an unarmed attack as a bonus action.

Alternatively a level of Hexblade also works (and is easier to qualify for). This lets you use Cha to hit and damage which is probably better than Dex, plus you get medium armor and shields (which lore bards lack) plus you get a free spell slot 1/ short rest, plus you get hex warrior 1/ short rest, plus you get some nice cantrips (eldritch blast) and access to spells like AoA and Hex.

[Azgeroth]

isn't there a 1h, 1d8, light finesse thrown, 'spear like' weapon from ToA?? i believe its also slashing, but i could be wrong on that part

[Mikal]

isn't there a 1h, 1d8, light finesse thrown, 'spear like' weapon from ToA?? i believe its also slashing, but i could be wrong on that part

The Yklwa? 1d8 piercing. Doesn't require two hands, but shorter range on the throw.
Not finesse based. Also not versatile, so no two handed 1d10 damage.
Still, let's you use a shield and a spear with better damage, which is nice!

I dunno if I'd allow it to be used with spear mastery though, because then you have a 1d10 one handed weapon, which makes the weapon the best one hander hands down.. as a simple weapon.