14 str, 14 dex, 7 con?

[Zhentarim]

What does 14 str, 14 dex, 7 con look like on a tiefling? He is male with a tail and a maw full of sharp teeth. He focuses on archery, though.

[ViperMagnum357]

What does 14 str, 14 dex, 7 con look like on a tiefling? He is male with a tail and a maw full of sharp teeth. He focuses on archery, though.

Twitchy, darting eyes; long, strangler's fingers in constant motion, whipcord thin with blotchy, sallow skin stretched tight over bone and muscle. Intermittent cough and easily winded, but steady hands and precise, economical movement. Overall, seems to be made of gristle and boot leather stretched over bone and a vicious streak a mile wide.

[Zhentarim]

Twitchy, darting eyes; long, strangler's fingers in constant motion, whipcord thin with blotchy, sallow skin stretched tight over bone and muscle. Intermittent cough and easily winded, but steady hands and precise, economical movement. Overall, seems to be made of gristle and boot leather stretched over bone and a vicious streak a mile wide.

thank you, I was thinking something along those lines

[Ellrin]

What does [...] 7 con look like on a tiefling?

https://i.imgur.com/nWgM8wg.jpg

[grarrrg]

https://i.imgur.com/nWgM8wg.jpg

Is that a threat?

[Doctor Awkward]

Is that a threat?

It's a statistical certainty.

[Ellrin]

Is that a threat?

That's a "I've always thought the roleplaying potential for negative con mod builds was really cool but in practice they all die."

[skunk3]

I'd never let that be my CON score on ANY character.

[Korahir]

While it is hard to pull off, it surely is not a death sentence. Just be extra paranoid, extra carfeul and maybe aspire life as an undead.

[Eldariel]

Undeath fixes poor Con. Just go Necropolitan in a Desecrated area and profit.

[Ellrin]

But what if his Cha is 7, too?

[Arkhios]

You know, just food for thought, assuming you were using average hit points, If you were a Barbarian with Con 7, it would be roughly the same as if you had d8 for HD and Con 14-15 for the first level, and d6 for HD and Con 12-13 for the rest of the levels. Certainly not the most tough bastard out there, but survivable. Of course, Fortitude Saves would be a tad low, but not outright horrible.

Assuming this is for Pathfinder, Savage Technologist archetype would work pretty well with those stats. But, as suggested, being extra paranoid wouldn't hurt. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

But what if his Cha is 7, too?

Undead don't get HP off Cha. Only Dry Liches and few others with Unholy Toughness do and IIRC penalties don't apply. They do, however, get base d12s regardless of anything and +2 HP per level for Desecrate with the statue of a deity, making a Desecrate Necropolitan have HP equal to a 14 Con Barbarian. Not amazing in the long run, but definitely passable.

[Ellrin]

Undead don't get HP off Cha. Only Dry Liches and few others with Unholy Toughness do and IIRC penalties don't apply. They do, however, get base d12s regardless of anything and +2 HP per level for Desecrate with the statue of a deity, making a Desecrate Necropolitan have HP equal to a 14 Con Barbarian. Not amazing in the long run, but definitely passable.

Don't their Fort saves run on Cha, though? It's stupid late where I am so I may be misremembering, but I was pretty sure something important keyed to Con on most living creatures was keyed to Cha for undead.

[Eldariel]

Don't their Fort saves run on Cha, though? It's stupid late where I am so I may be misremembering, but I was pretty sure something important keyed to Con on most living creatures was keyed to Cha for undead.

They have no bonus or penalty to Fort-saves but luckily they're also immune to most things requiring Fort-saves (Disintegrate and Polymorph Any Object not withstanding). Concentration-checks are keyed off Charisma but that's mostly important for casters.

[Geddy2112]

These stats remind me of some of the bigger MLB players around. They are paid to hit and catch small fast moving objects. When they hit them, they hit them hard. They have to be able to sprint short distances, but it is a lot of intense muscle burst and not any sustained activity. You could also be a pitcher-strength to throw the fastball and dexterity to aim it, but all you have to do is stand there. Double if you go back in the day when players all smoked and chewed tobacco.

[Drelua]

This isn't for Pathfinder, is it? If it is, then undead do get HP from Cha, although there's less options for playing an undead. So yeah, you might be more likely to survive if you're already dead.

I can't remember ever playing a character with less than 14 Con, unless you have some way to keep enemies from getting close to you, you're probably gonna die. I ran a PFS game once with a character who had 8 or 9 con, his plan was that he just wouldn't get hit. He survived that one scenario. Barely. Luckily, he was level 1, and it was PFS so nothing's set in stone until you've played the character at level 2. He has some constitution now.

[Ellrin]

Concentration-checks are keyed off Charisma but that's mostly important for casters.

Right, that's what I was thinking of, my mistake.

[Zhentarim]

This isn't for Pathfinder, is it? If it is, then undead do get HP from Cha, although there's less options for playing an undead. So yeah, you might be more likely to survive if you're already dead.

I can't remember ever playing a character with less than 14 Con, unless you have some way to keep enemies from getting close to you, you're probably gonna die. I ran a PFS game once with a character who had 8 or 9 con, his plan was that he just wouldn't get hit. He survived that one scenario. Barely. Luckily, he was level 1, and it was PFS so nothing's set in stone until you've played the character at level 2. He has some constitution now.

I have 40 ft base speed and am an archer cleric who worships a demon lord. My plan with these rolls is to just keep my distance, avoiding melee till later. I will probably dip into barbarian to get faster and pick up longbow proficiency.

[Thurbane]

That's a "I've always thought the roleplaying potential for negative con mod builds was really cool but in practice they all die."

I'd probably look into the possibility of becoming undead...

[Ellrin]

I'd probably look into the possibility of becoming undead...

That's an entirely different set of roleplaying implications, though. The idea of playing an adventurer with an honestly poor constitution and in frequent poor health who toughs it out and manages to be a badass in spite of it has its own appeals. Having someone like that survive past level 3 is another matter, though.

[Calthropstu]

Low con is easily survivable with superior tactics.

[Velaryon]

That's a "I've always thought the roleplaying potential for negative con mod builds was really cool but in practice they all die."

I had an NPC pilot in an SWRPG game with a 6 con, who ironically was the only member of his squadron that didn't get killed. But then, that was piloting in Star Wars, where it doesn't matter how much HP you have.


Low con is easily survivable with superior tactics.

As long as you keep yourself out of harm's way so that no one is ever hitting you or forcing you to make a Fort save, such a low stat can be mitigated. Depending on the campaign, that might not always be possible.

[Drelua]

I have 40 ft base speed and am an archer cleric who worships a demon lord. My plan with these rolls is to just keep my distance, avoiding melee till later. I will probably dip into barbarian to get faster and pick up longbow proficiency.

A barbarian dip isn't really a good idea, you'll be weakening your casting just to be a little faster, which won't make it any more difficult for an enemy to charge you. Your spellcasting's a better defence than your speed, if you're spending your actions running away you're in trouble. Unless you get around a corner, they'll probably charge you, and some of your encounters are going to be in a small enough space that you'll have to get closer than you'd like, unless all of your fights happen in a field. The problem with avoiding melee until later is that when you're gaining an average of 5 HP every 2 levels, you'll always want to avoid melee, because you'll always be fighting things that can kill you with a hit or two.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be too negative, but saying you won't get hit isn't realistic, it'll happen at some point. Unless you're pulling some high-level caster shenanigans, in my experience everyone takes damage. Even my character with about 50 AC at level 12 got hurt sometimes, and got turned into a statue with a couple unlucky rolls against a prismatic spray. It happened to target my weakest save, and I just barely failed on a 4.

[Zhentarim]

A barbarian dip isn't really a good idea, you'll be weakening your casting just to be a little faster, which won't make it any more difficult for an enemy to charge you. Your spellcasting's a better defence than your speed, if you're spending your actions running away you're in trouble. Unless you get around a corner, they'll probably charge you, and some of your encounters are going to be in a small enough space that you'll have to get closer than you'd like, unless all of your fights happen in a field. The problem with avoiding melee until later is that when you're gaining an average of 5 HP every 2 levels, you'll always want to avoid melee, because you'll always be fighting things that can kill you with a hit or two.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be too negative, but saying you won't get hit isn't realistic, it'll happen at some point. Unless you're pulling some high-level caster shenanigans, in my experience everyone takes damage. Even my character with about 50 AC at level 12 got hurt sometimes, and got turned into a statue with a couple unlucky rolls against a prismatic spray. It happened to target my weakest save, and I just barely failed on a 4.

50 AC? how did you get that high?

[Drelua]

50 AC? how did you get that high?

Pathfinder monk, high wisdom and higher dex, plus the whole party had crafting feats that the GM pretty much let us use as much as we wanted, so we all had way more gear than normal. Plus ki powers, having a +5 from barkskin pretty much all the time helped/ Character was a little too defensive to be effective most of the time, especially with snake style so I got an AoO any time someone missed me. They'd try to hit me, miss, I'd get a free attack, that wouldn't do much, so they'd realize I was tough to kill, but also not a threat, so they just attack someone else. He would have been good solo, it just would have taken him a really long time to kill anything, as opposed to the magus in the party that could kill just about anything in one turn.

[SirNMN]

I'd never let that be my CON score on ANY character.

I have you ever had to roll the die and play it were they lie it has lead to some questionable choices. Like why a with character with 9 str, 11 dex, 5 con, 13 int, 18 wis, 12 cha would choose the life of an adventurer. you would think he would know better.


Pathfinder monk, high wisdom and higher dex, plus the whole party had crafting feats that the GM pretty much let us use as much as we wanted, so we all had way more gear than normal. Plus ki powers, having a +5 from barkskin pretty much all the time helped/ Character was a little too defensive to be effective most of the time, especially with snake style so I got an AoO any time someone missed me. They'd try to hit me, miss, I'd get a free attack, that wouldn't do much, so they'd realize I was tough to kill, but also not a threat, so they just attack someone else. He would have been good solo, it just would have taken him a really long time to kill anything, as opposed to the magus in the party that could kill just about anything in one turn.
make them a tripper they miss you trip them and just keep them pinned under your beat down

[magicalmagicman]

Low con is easily survivable with superior tactics.

Fireball

Makes save

still dies

so... superior tactics is... staying home and not adventuring?

You're gonna get 1 hp per level. Level 10 character has 10hp.

[umbergod]

Fireball

Makes save

still dies

so... superior tactics is... staying home and not adventuring?

You're gonna get 1 hp per level. Level 10 character has 10hp.

A 7 con is only -2, and a cleric gets d8 per level, so 1-5 hp per level, or 14-50 hp @10th lvl

[magicalmagicman]

A 7 con is only -2, and a cleric gets d8 per level, so 1-5 hp per level, or 14-50 hp @10th lvl

d8 average is 4.5
4.5 - 2 = 2.5
8-2 + 2.5 * 9 = 28.5hp at level 10.

Are you saying 28.5hp is even remotely acceptable at level 10?????? You're still one shotted by everything, and die to an AoE spell even if you make a save.

[umbergod]

d8 average is 4.5
4.5 - 2 = 2.5
8-2 + 2.5 * 9 = 28.5hp at level 10.

Are you saying 28.5hp is even remotely acceptable at level 10?????? You're still one shotted by everything, and die to an AoE spell even if you make a save.

Average 10th level fireball does 35 damage, save for half is most definitely less than your assumed 28.5 hp average, which is still more than your initial assertion that OP would have 10 hp @10th level.

Its fine and well to say that a 7 con is counterproductive and the exact opposite of optimized, bc youd be right. Doesnt mean it cant work at the right table with the right group and dm.

[grarrrg]

I'm pretty sure Qwanch usually plays Pathfinder, so Toughness feat for +1 hp/level. And optional Favored Class bonus of another +1 hp/level.

[Strigon]

d8 average is 4.5
4.5 - 2 = 2.5
8-2 + 2.5 * 9 = 28.5hp at level 10.

Are you saying 28.5hp is even remotely acceptable at level 10?????? You're still one shotted by everything, and die to an AoE spell even if you make a save.

By tenth level, you should be shoring up your weaknesses. At level 10, you've got ~50,000 GP to spend on your equipment, which can definitely be used to make you harder to hit/give you resistance to damage/give you a bonus to Con.\

If you're in danger of being one-shotted, your first priority should be to prevent that from happening. Get some equipment and buffs that make you tougher; it's not difficult.

[DEMON]

By tenth level, you should be shoring up your weaknesses.

Make it a 5th level and 16 hp, then. Don't get hit by a fireball. Or most anything else, actually.

[PersonMan]

Make it a 5th level and 16 hp, then. Don't get hit by a fireball. Or most anything else, actually.

If the argument is "by this point you'll have the resources to have more HP", then saying "ok but what if you had even more resources?" isn't going to change things much, I think.

[Knaight]

d8 average is 4.5
4.5 - 2 = 2.5
8-2 + 2.5 * 9 = 28.5hp at level 10.

This doesn't work. Looking at full distributions, where all numbers are equal:
d8 = [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8], average 4.5
d8-2 = [-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6], average 2.5
d8-2 min 1 = [1,1,1,2,3,4,5,6], average 2.875

6+2.875*9 = 31.875 HP at level 10.

It's still not great, but that's the actual average.

[chaos_redefined]

Also, the situation can occur where you fail that save. Natural 1's exist.

And the situation where an enemy crits you.

Superior tactics allow you to minimise the chances that your HP comes into play. But that chance is never 0. Don't go for 7 con...

[emeraldstreak]

Are you saying 28.5hp is even remotely acceptable at level 10?????? You're still one shotted by everything, and die to an AoE spell even if you make a save.

Maybe you're hp-damage immune, or maybe something else.

[emeraldstreak]

Also, the situation can occur where you fail that save. Natural 1's exist.


This actually highlights the second-line defense nature of hit points. Plenty of effects will defeat/kill you at natural 1, but only some of them will do it via HP loss. While the direct "fix" for natural 1s are rerolls, ultimately it's battlefield control which pays out when it comes to staying safe in any situation.

[Yogibear41]

Agree with the gravestone, only ever played 1 character with lower than 14 con, and he became undead, Con scores on my character are usually around 16, I like hit points. But I am also a melee enthusiast as well soooo, guess I need them more as well.

[RFLS]

They (undead) do, however, get base d12s regardless of anything.

Not quite. Their racial hit dice are converted to d12s. Their class hit dice remain the same.

[Eldariel]

Not quite. Their racial hit dice are converted to d12s. Their class hit dice remain the same.

Well, depends. Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) for instance simply turns all current and future HD into d12s, class or race. Necropolitan is the same (the example Necropolitan Wizard 5 has d12 HDs). You might be able to find examples where this is not the case but for all the salient cases, you get d12 HDs from class levels as well.

[grarrrg]

Not quite. Their racial hit dice are converted to d12s. Their class hit dice remain the same.Well, depends. Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) for instance simply turns all current and future HD into d12s, class or race.

Unless you're doing Pathfinder, where A: Turning undead is not near as easy, and B: Class HD remain, convert any racial HD to d8's, but gets to use CHA instead of CON for HP bonuses.

[RFLS]

Well, depends. Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) for instance simply turns all current and future HD into d12s, class or race. Necropolitan is the same (the example Necropolitan Wizard 5 has d12 HDs). You might be able to find examples where this is not the case but for all the salient cases, you get d12 HDs from class levels as well.


For example, an ogre normally has 4 HD. If it picks up one level of barbarian, it becomes a creature of 5 Hit Dice: 4d8 HD for its ogre levels, plus 1d12 HD for its barbarian level.


Some templates change the size of a creature’s Hit Dice (usually by changing the creature type). A few templates change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels, but most templates that change Hit Dice change only the creature’s original HD and leave class Hit Dice unchanged.

These two rules indicate that the norm for a creature becoming undead is for its class HD to remain unchanged, and that, going forward, class HD are to remain unchanged. Lich arguably calls itself out as an exception. Necropolitan does not, and its example block is ambiguous.

[umbergod]

These two rules indicate that the norm for a creature becoming undead is for its class HD to remain unchanged, and that, going forward, class HD are to remain unchanged. Lich arguably calls itself out as an exception. Necropolitan does not, and its example block is ambiguous.

To further this stance, the sample mummy lord has 10 cleric levels and their hd reflects that via mummy d12s+10d8

[Eldariel]

These two rules indicate that the norm for a creature becoming undead is for its class HD to remain unchanged, and that, going forward, class HD are to remain unchanged. Lich arguably calls itself out as an exception. Necropolitan does not, and its example block is ambiguous.

Necropolitan states "Hit Dice: Increase to d12". Specific trumps general (template traits overwrite general type traits) and as it does not differentiate between the racial and the class HD, all Necropolitan HD become D12s. Yes, there are undead that work as stated (such as the aforementioned Mummy), but the ones accessible to PCs almost invariably change all HD (Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) and Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) use the same verbatim as Lich for instance).

[umbergod]

Ahhhh another fine example of the folks at wotc not bothering to communicate effectively and keep rules the same across the board :p

[DEMON]

If the argument is "by this point you'll have the resources to have more HP", then saying "ok but what if you had even more resources?" isn't going to change things much, I think.

The argument was "you need to get to that point and at lower levels, you'll be even more at risk of dying than usual".

Even with Knaights correction, the character will have ~17.5 HP at 5th level, which is equal to an average damage from a 5d6 (AoE) attack. And the external defenses Strigon suggested don't come as readily available at low levels.

[emeraldstreak]

Even with Knaights correction, the character will have ~17.5 HP at 5th level, which is equal to an average damage from a 5d6 (AoE) attack. And the external defenses Strigon suggested don't come as readily available at low levels.

An argument in favor of Reflex&Evasion, not hp.

[DEMON]

An argument in favor of Reflex&Evasion, not hp.

That only means that, statistically, you'll get killed by the 20th AoE.
There's also touch attacks, melee and ranged.
And things that don't need an attack roll and/or don't allow any save, such as Whelm, or PW: Pain, but admittedly that spell is brrroken and allows you a few rounds oh healing before it does its full damage.

[umbergod]

That only means that, statistically, you'll get killed by the 20th AoE.
There's also touch attacks, melee and ranged.
And things that don't need an attack roll and/or don't allow any save, such as Whelm, or PW: Pain, but admittedly that spell is brrroken and allows you a few rounds oh healing before it does its full damage.
With evasion, you only take half damage on a failed save, so unless max damage is rolled, most AoE's will fall quite short of lethal damage

[DEMON]

With evasion, you only take half damage on a failed save, so unless max damage is rolled, most AoE's will fall quite short of lethal damage

You're thinking Improved Evasion. Standard Evasion is all (failed save) or nothing (successful save).

[Eldariel]

That only means that, statistically, you'll get killed by the 20th AoE.
There's also touch attacks, melee and ranged.
And things that don't need an attack roll and/or don't allow any save, such as Whelm, or PW: Pain, but admittedly that spell is brrroken and allows you a few rounds oh healing before it does its full damage.

There are many "just take damage"-auras in the game too. For instance, Jovocs [MMII], Ice Beasts [Frostburn], Abyssal Giants [Expedition to the Demonweb Pits], etc. Also spells like Acid Fog, Cloudkill, etc. HP is nice in that it's probably the broadest defense in the game, works against natural 20s/1s, and against many types of attacks. The problem is, you usually have too little...which is why getting a high starting stat is so convenient. This allows getting to 24 by 20 which amounts to 140 bonus HP (by comparison, the average base HP of a level 20 Barbarian is 12 + 6.5 * 19 = 135,5 so it doubles even the highest HD).

[umbergod]

You're thinking Improved Evasion. Standard Evasion is all (failed save) or nothing (successful save).

Shows how much i dont actually play rogues XD

[Calthropstu]

Fireball

Makes save

still dies

so... superior tactics is... staying home and not adventuring?

You're gonna get 1 hp per level. Level 10 character has 10hp.

Makes save, takes no damage because fire resistance is a thing.

If you are playing a low con or low dex character, bumping elemental resistance is a no brainer.

[RoboEmperor]

Makes save, takes no damage because fire resistance is a thing.

If you are playing a low con or low dex character, bumping elemental resistance is a no brainer.

Can't bump em all. You can bump ones you expect, but not out of the blue. Unless of course you are spending 100% of your wealth on defense, but if you do that, there's always a chance the (bad) DMs are going to change the world so that everything does sonic damage.

[umbergod]

Can't bump em all. You can bump ones you expect, but not out of the blue. Unless of course you are spending 100% of your wealth on defense, but if you do that, there's always a chance the (bad) DMs are going to change the world so that everything does sonic damage.

Thats why ya dont play with bad dms. No gaming is better than gaming with a dm that will seek to negate any advantage/benefit a PC might have

[emeraldstreak]

Can't bump em all. You can bump ones you expect, but not out of the blue. Unless of course you are spending 100% of your wealth on defense

Have you ever seen even one PvE gauntlet? Resist Energy costs are negligible to wealth gained.