How high of Persuasion can we get?

[RickAllison]

Topic, how high of Persuasion checks can we get, especially if it is reliable. Preferably for level 14, but feel free to expand higher.

The one that seems to have the highest by my figuring is Samurai Fighter 7/Redemption Paladin 3/Rogue 1 or Bard 3 (or Prodigy feat). He could fill in the Charisma and Wisdom with future ASIs to get to 20 in each (+10), Expertise in Persuasion (+12 eventually), and the paladin's Channel Divinity (+5) gives +27 total. That is.... high. Any other ideas?

[Naanomi]

Just by themselves, or can the party help? Magic items?

[RickAllison]

Just by themselves, or can the party help? Magic items?

Magic items are fine, but no party help.

[LeonBH]

A Lore Bard with Expertise in Persuasion will always roll 32 (+5 Cha, +12 Expertise, auto-15 due to Glibness). Magic Intitiate: Cleric can give him Guidance for +1d4, and his own Peerless Skill ability gives him +1d12.

If he has a Luckstone, which is an uncommon item, that is another +1. Thus his rolls have a minimum of 35 and a maximum of 49.

[Zene]

A Lore Bard with Expertise in Persuasion will always roll 32 (+5 Cha, +12 Expertise, auto-15 due to Glibness). Magic Intitiate: Cleric can give him Guidance for +1d4, and his own Peerless Skill ability gives him +1d12.

If he has a Luckstone, which is an uncommon item, that is another +1. Thus his rolls have a minimum of 35 and a maximum of 49.

Ioun stone of mastery for another +2 (with expertise). For concentration, with the stipulation that no party members can help—and I’m assuming that includes minions—you can either have guidance for +1d4 or enhance ability - eagle’s splendor for advantage.

[Zene]

A Lore Bard with Expertise in Persuasion will always roll 32 (+5 Cha, +12 Expertise, auto-15 due to Glibness). Magic Intitiate: Cleric can give him Guidance for +1d4, and his own Peerless Skill ability gives him +1d12.

If he has a Luckstone, which is an uncommon item, that is another +1. Thus his rolls have a minimum of 35 and a maximum of 49.

Ioun stone of mastery for another +2 (with expertise).

After Lore Bard 15, take wild sorc 1 for advantage via tides of chaos.

Halfling to reroll 1’s.

Lucky feat for superadvantage.

[LeonBH]

Ioun stone of mastery for another +2 (with expertise). For concentration, with the stipulation that no party members can help—and I’m assuming that includes minions—you can either have guidance for +1d4 or enhance ability - eagle’s splendor for advantage.

Right, Ioun Stone would bolster that further (minimum roll of 36, maximum of 51). Though with Glibness, advantage isn't necessary, since the rolls always turn out to be 15. Guidance would take up his concentration slot better, I think.


After Lore Bard 15, take wild sorc 1 for advantage via tides of chaos.

Halfling to reroll 1’s.

Lucky feat for superadvantage.

Also very valid. 3d20 is very likely to turn up higher than 15, though you could still suffer from bad luck there.

[Zene]

Right, Ioun Stone would bolster that further (minimum roll of 36, maximum of 51). Though with Glibness, advantage isn't necessary, since the rolls always turn out to be 15. Guidance would take up his concentration slot better, I think.

None of this is necessary lol. Advantage is always good unless somehow you’re rolling a guaranteed 20.

Speaking of that, add in 2 levels of div wizard for Portent.

[LeonBH]

None of this is necessary lol

Good point :smallbiggrin:

I thought of Div 2 as well, I suppose if we only want that high check 1/day, one portent dice is all we need.

[Naanomi]

Tomes can get that Charisma up to 30

[Asmotherion]

I'll focus on things that are not that obvious:

Glibness can be very usefull in social situations, since your lowest roll will automatically be a 15; This is effectivelly a +15 with a radiant bonus of +1d5.

A Dragonic Sorcerer would Add his proff bonus 3 times against Dragons (provided he already had expertese in the persuation skill), since this is a very specific exprertese trait. It is not RAW, but rather how I would play such an ability, due to it being so specific.

A good cantrip for this is guidance. However, due to it's Verbal and Somatic materials, it is best used by Sorcerers (either by multiclass or through Divine Soul) through Subtle Spell, since it would be awkward to start praying/casting before trying to convince someone in most social situations. It also synergises best with Cha casters, since this is going to be the stat you want the most.

Enhance Ability, and similar spells grand advantage to checks. Coupling this with the Friends cantrip, the Charm Person Cantrip or other spells that bestow the Charmed condition will give you double advantage to your checks. Wile this does not mean you get to roll twice, it does mean that, if something would make you loose one of your instances of advantage, you still have advantage, and if you would have disadvantage, you roll a normal check instead of a disadvantaged one. This can be very useful in many situations.

Hex targeting any of the 3 mental stats can be very useful depending on the situation. For example, if you want to lie, target Wisdom. The enemy will have disadvantage against your Deception. The same may hold true if you want to persuade them that something is a win-win situation, wile it actually is more benefical to your party. In case of a Debate, target the opponent's Charisma.

[Zene]

Also, Foresight for advantage, Bestow Curse (5th level or higher so that it's not concentration) so that the target has disadvantage, and Cutting Words on the target.

Great points! Can’t believe I forgot foresight and cutting words. So in that case no need
to take a level of sorc for concentration-free advantage; however, if you want to Bestow Curse someone without initiating combat, Subtle metamagic helps. Therefore I’d suggest the build of lore bard 17 / divine soul sorc 3. Pick up guidance, subtle and extended.

If you’ve got a sorclock buddy, they can Subtle Hex your target for you and save you that Bestow Curse slot.

[Zene]

Man, lore bards are the best at like, a lot of things...

[Xihirli]

20 CHA plus max proficiency bonus x2 is

+17

So let's assume a natural 20. (37)

Highest bardic inspiration die is a d12 ( max 49)
Add Bless on there, plus 1d4 (max 53)
Advantage doesn't help if we assume highest possible.

I'm not sure what else we can add. Subtracting from the opponent is also good.

[Alderic78]

While fun, I doubt you'll ever need that level of optimization. Your target is going to resist with a +11 (more if their stats are higher than normal player max) so, as long as you get into the hight 30s you're good. Hex a critter and kill it, so you can switch Hex to your target w/o spellcasting and even low 30s are fine.

[MrStabby]

Away from MM at the moment but any mileage in true polymorphing into something else? Some kind of Angel maybe?

[Malifice]

Dont forget to cast guidance on yourself before rolling.

Halfling is the best race, allowing you to re-roll 1's.

[Alderic78]

Away from MM at the moment but any mileage in true polymorphing into something else? Some kind of Angel maybe?

And losing everything from your class ? Unless there is some creature that's really optimized for it, I doubt it would help.

[Blackbando]

And losing everything from your class ? Unless there is some creature that's really optimized for it, I doubt it would help.

While not exactly persuasion, Cambions essentially get dominate person at will. The best persuasion is, after all, mind control.

[Specter]

Without items:

Expertise + Reliable Talent + Guidance + Foresight/Enhance Ability + max CHA:

17 modifier + 1d4 to the roll, all of this with advantage and taking no less than 10 on the roll. You could throw Samurai in the middle, but that's too much investment.

[unusualsuspect]

If UA is allowed, throw in a level of Mystic, grab the Mantle of Awe discipline, and you're adding half your Intelligence modifier to Charisma checks while focused on the discipline. +1 or 2 for a single level isn't bad, given it stacks with everything else.

[Lkcaj]

So with recent things like Tasha's I believe we can crush this number. Here's the build
Level 3 ranger subclass fey wanderer
-- adds your wisdom
Level 3 paladin subclass redemption
-- adds plus 5 (no action required)
Level 7 artificer subclass any
-- adds your intelligence- as reaction
Level 3 bard subclass any
-- adds expertise
Level 3 fighter sub class battle master
-- adds a superiority die 1d8 (no action required)
Last level in any one to get the feat magic initiate and take guidance as the cantrip (action)

Nicely adds up to 20 so proficiency is +6
Let's pretend we have a 20 In cha, wis, and int.
What's this all add up to?
5cha+5wis+5int+5divine+6prof+6expt+1d4guide+1d8sup eriority.= 32base. 8(1d8+1d4)

If you roll max you can get a persuasion roll of 64!!
This is all by yourself without help from others or magic items.
Plz never do this as it hurts my soul. Thx 😊

[Contrast]

Add Bless on there, plus 1d4 (max 53)

For reference, Bless adds to attack rolls and saving throws but not to ability checks.

Edit - aaaand this thread was necro'd, nevermind :P

[KorvinStarmast]

Topic, how high of Persuasion checks can we get, especially if it is reliable. Preferably for level 14, but feel free to expand higher.

The one that seems to have the highest by my figuring is Samurai Fighter 7/Redemption Paladin 3/Rogue 1 or Bard 3 (or Prodigy feat). He could fill in the Charisma and Wisdom with future ASIs to get to 20 in each (+10), Expertise in Persuasion (+12 eventually), and the paladin's Channel Divinity (+5) gives +27 total. That is.... high. Any other ideas?
Without even trying hard, ended up with a 39 on Saturday Night.
Level 17 Lore bard (Charisma 20) proficient in persuasion and I used the self buff with one use of bardic inspiration (rolled on a d12) and the final score was 39. The DM uses "degrees of success" sometimes, and since we were in a place where, basically, nobody likes our party it was handy in getting a few people to be less sourly disposed towards the party.

If I had expertise in persuasion it might have been ridiculous.

[Jakinbandw]

20 CHA plus max proficiency bonus x2 is

+17

So let's assume a natural 20. (37)

Highest bardic inspiration die is a d12 ( max 49)
Add Bless on there, plus 1d4 (max 53)
Advantage doesn't help if we assume highest possible.

I'm not sure what else we can add. Subtracting from the opponent is also good.

If you had a few levels of redemption Paladin you could add another +5 to that.

Also the construct from ravenloft gives a 1d6 too.

[Leviatana]

Is there a reason you would pick Lore Bard over Eloquence Bard? The Silver Tongue would guarantee you always roll a 10 or higher so by default you are guaranteed to pass almost any check you might have to pass through unless your DM give impossible odds.

[Khrysaes]

Good point :smallbiggrin:

I thought of Div 2 as well, I suppose if we only want that high check 1/day, one portent dice is all we need.

On that note... which takes precedence? Divination or something like reliable talent or glibness?

If the divination wizard sets a roll to 2, or something below what the other class feature says you can roll, i.e. glibness 15, then is the roll a 2 or a 15?

[Khrysaes]

Is there a reason you would pick Lore Bard over Eloquence Bard? The Silver Tongue would guarantee you always roll a 10 or higher so by default you are guaranteed to pass almost any check you might have to pass through unless your DM give impossible odds.

I think the level 14 ability, peerless skill, which adds bardic inspiration dice to the skill check, raising the maximum. Advantage is good, but it doesn't raise the max, and there are other ways to get advantage.

EDIT:
I didn't realize this was a necroed thread either....