Maximizing Iaijutsu Focus in E6

[Doctor Awkward]

What is the highest possible bonus to Iaijutsu Focus you can achieve assuming the following restrictions:

-The highest ability score bonus available from a magic item is +4
-The highest bonus available with a custom +skill item is +5
-The character starts with 12 Charisma and has no friendly caster to help. They must rely on items and their own ability

So far I have
12 ranks in Iaijutsu Focus skill (assuming max ranks and the Skill Beyond Your Years (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Rules#Extra_Feats) feat)
+3 ability score bonus (16 charisma from magic item)
+3 Skill Focus: IF
+4 insight bonus (Focus magic weapon ability from OA)
+2 circumstance (masterwork tool)
+5 competence (magic item)

That gets a 29. Ideally, I'd like it to be at least 30 so I can hit the table max of 9d6 on a natural 20.

Anything obvious that I missed?

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Can you make custom items?or can you get access to the guidance spell? It gives a +1 to any skill check, or there's guidance of the avatar which is a 2nd level cleric spell, gives a +20 competence bonus

[Doctor Awkward]

Can you make custom items?or can you get access to the guidance spell? It gives a +1 to any skill check, or there's guidance of the avatar which is a 2nd level cleric spell, gives a +20 competence bonus

Guidance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guidance.htm#) is a competence bonus so it wouldn't stack with the custom magic item. Circlet of Persuasion has the same issue.

Guidance of the Avatar isn't likely to fly, so I'd rather not have to rely on it if anything else is available.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A level of Marshal for Motivate Charisma can double that +3 Cha bonus.
Item Familiar.
One could argue for Aid Another.
Ability Training/Ability Advancement feats would get you another +1.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Sorry, I was just getting off work, it's circumstance that stacks, which doesn't help you with anything I referenced.

[ShurikVch]

-The character starts with 12 Charisma and has no friendly caster to help. They must rely on items and their own abilityQuestions:
1. Just 12? Why so low? Come on! How often you see, say, Rogue with Dex 12, or Barbarian with Str 12?
2. Can't you be your own "friendly caster"? +4 Cha from the bog-standard Eagle’s Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eaglesSplendor.htm), and +4 more from the Devil's Ego...
3. Are alchemical drugs OK? Say, Mertoran Leaf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#mertoranLeaf) gives +2 alchemical bonus to Cha for a hour...
4. How about the templates? Say, Prodigy (Dungeon Master's Guide II) may give you +2 Cha and +4 on Cha checks for the mere LA +2

Note: Bellflower tattoo of Tattooed Monk PrC gives Cha mod to any ability score - including Cha. Even your stated 16 will turn into 19, which - with Motivate Charisma minor aura - may increase bonus up to +8

[RaiKirah]

Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus) gets +3

I apparently didn't read the OP, sorry

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)

Its invest skill ranks ability allows you to get an untyped bonus to a given skill that's as high as your ranks in that skill. So with 12 ranks, this is potentially an extra +12, as long as you invest at least 36 skill points into it.

That also allows you to upgrade it yourself as though you have the required item creation feats. So you can put extra effects on it, including intelligent item properties, for half price: "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)"

[Esprit15]

Single level of Marshal as mentioned above, and the rest in Factotum. Once a day +5 bonus.

[Inevitability]

Faustian Pacts can get you permanent skill bonuses, and from a meta-perspective bartering away your soul is hardly a drawback in a world without resurrection magic.

[Crake]

Questions:
1. Just 12? Why so low? Come on! How often you see, say, Rogue with Dex 12, or Barbarian with Str 12?

Probably because, while iaijutsu focus is something this character is picking up, charisma is still a secondary ability score? As a melee character, strength or dex will take precedence for the attack bonus, followed closely by con, because you don't wanna die in melee. Then, if the character's a skill monkey, like a rogue, or factotum, int also has precedence, leaving charmisma as the fourth ability score to put points into.

And honestly, if you're getting charisma JUST for the bonus to iaijutsu.... that's not a good investment of your limited ability scores.

[remetagross]

Indeed, the Obtain Familiar feat can net you an automatic success on Aid Another checks that doesn't take actions from your allies.

[ShurikVch]

Probably because, while iaijutsu focus is something this character is picking up, charisma is still a secondary ability score? As a melee character, strength or dex will take precedence for the attack bonus, followed closely by con, because you don't wanna die in melee.Note: Paladin is melee too, but dumping the Cha is the bad decision - unless you're taking Serenity feat


Then, if the character's a skill monkey, like a rogue, or factotum, int also has precedence, leaving charmisma as the fourth ability score to put points into.I'm confused there: is the character melee, or skillmonkey?
While it's fairly possible to build any of those, it's remarkably difficult to make both at once
Cloistered Cleric and Ranger are, probably, the closest - and they both need Cha (Turn Undead/Wild Empathy)


And honestly, if you're getting charisma JUST for the bonus to iaijutsu.... that's not a good investment of your limited ability scores.There are a veritable dozen of LA +0 races with +2 Cha; also, Magic-Blooded and Unseelie Fey templates; in such conditions, you may end with Cha 12 only if you put in it no points at all!

[Zaq]

Can you spare an early feat and a later feat? Truename Training + Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind for Universal Aptitude is a time-honored E6 trick if you can spare the skill points and the action cost. It’ll be awkward to make the action economy work in combat, but it’s technically an option. Plus it has other uses.

[Doctor Awkward]

Questions:
1. Just 12? Why so low? Come on! How often you see, say, Rogue with Dex 12, or Barbarian with Str 12?
2. Can't you be your own "friendly caster"? +4 Cha from the bog-standard Eagle’s Splendor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eaglesSplendor.htm), and +4 more from the Devil's Ego...
3. Are alchemical drugs OK? Say, Mertoran Leaf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#mertoranLeaf) gives +2 alchemical bonus to Cha for a hour...
4. How about the templates? Say, Prodigy (Dungeon Master's Guide II) may give you +2 Cha and +4 on Cha checks for the mere LA +2

Note: Bellflower tattoo of Tattooed Monk PrC gives Cha mod to any ability score - including Cha. Even your stated 16 will turn into 19, which - with Motivate Charisma minor aura - may increase bonus up to +8

The character is a melee build with a focus on martial adept classes to make opponents flat-footed and enable Iaijutsu Focus after the first round of combat. Strength is his main attribute.

Drugs aren't likely to fly as getting a steady supply of them will prove problematic in the game.

The character is going to be human for Able Learner on account of the cross-class ranks in IF and other skills he will need. I'd also like to avoid template stacking except as a last resort.

Additionally, the bonus conferred by Bellflower Tattoo is an enhancement bonus so it wouldn't stack with magic items of +4.


Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)

Its invest skill ranks ability allows you to get an untyped bonus to a given skill that's as high as your ranks in that skill. So with 12 ranks, this is potentially an extra +12, as long as you invest at least 36 skill points into it.

That also allows you to upgrade it yourself as though you have the required item creation feats. So you can put extra effects on it, including intelligent item properties, for half price: "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)"

As much as I personally don't like Item Familiar I might be able to make a case for one as his weapon-- what with being an Ancestral Daisho and whatnot.

How would that interact with the E6 Open-Minded feat to get more skill points after level 6?


Faustian Pacts can get you permanent skill bonuses, and from a meta-perspective bartering away your soul is hardly a drawback in a world without resurrection magic.

Dealing with devils also likely won't fly during this game.


Can you spare an early feat and a later feat? Truename Training + Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind for Universal Aptitude is a time-honored E6 trick if you can spare the skill points and the action cost. It’ll be awkward to make the action economy work in combat, but it’s technically an option. Plus it has other uses.

I can't see that being all that feasible. The character won't have much Intelligence, and wouldn't even be able to make the Truespeak DC's to affect himself (28 for a 6th level character) with minimal investment in the skill...

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Marshal dip will double your Cha bonus for another +3, post-item; the Ability Advancement feat from the same source as Wise Beyond Your Years there will boost your Cha by +2 for another +1 net bonus.

Oh! I almost forgot. Nymph's Kiss will give you a +2 circumstance bonus to all Cha checks, which would stack with the tool. (It also gives +1 skill point/level and +1 to saves against spells. It's kinda nuts, albeit Exalted nuts), and Karmic Twin (Oriental Adventures) gives an untyped +2 to all Cha checks. That's another nice chunk of change-- and Karmic Twin is even a thematic match.

[ShurikVch]

The character is going to be human for Able Learner on account of the cross-class ranks in IF and other skills he will need.Complacent Human (Dragon #320) gets +2 to any one ability score - at the cost of losing racial bonus feat, +1 skill point/level, and locking Favored Class in Bard.

I'd also like to avoid template stacking except as a last resort.Is it really a "stacking", if you will take one and only one template?
Note: Prodigy (charisma) will give you total +5 on checks, which is equal to +10 Cha; I don't say it's "must have" only because LA +2 is a tad high

Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon) gets +2 Cha at the very 1st level

City of the Dead touchstone (Sandstorm) gives +1 insight bonus on all Charisma-based checks

Magic Items:
Admiral's Bicorne (Stormwrack): +5 bonus on all Charisma-based checks; 51000 gp
Cloak of the Dragon (Dragon #340): +2 enhancement bonus on all Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks; 8400 gp
Horseshoes of Flame (Savage Species): +10 unnamed Cha for 7 hours; intended for horses, but you can just UMD it; 30240 gp
Ring of Fairhair (Firehair) (Dragon #333): +2 sacred bonus to Charisma; 22800 gp

[Doctor Awkward]

A Marshal dip will double your Cha bonus for another +3, post-item; the Ability Advancement feat from the same source as Wise Beyond Your Years there will boost your Cha by +2 for another +1 net bonus.

Oh! I almost forgot. Nymph's Kiss will give you a +2 circumstance bonus to all Cha checks, which would stack with the tool. (It also gives +1 skill point/level and +1 to saves against spells. It's kinda nuts, albeit Exalted nuts), and Karmic Twin (Oriental Adventures) gives an untyped +2 to all Cha checks. That's another nice chunk of change-- and Karmic Twin is even a thematic match.


Complacent Human (Dragon #320) gets +2 to any one ability score - at the cost of losing racial bonus feat, +1 skill point/level, and locking Favored Class in Bard.
Is it really a "stacking", if you will take one and only one template?
Note: Prodigy (charisma) will give you total +5 on checks, which is equal to +10 Cha; I don't say it's "must have" only because LA +2 is a tad high

Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon) gets +2 Cha at the very 1st level

City of the Dead touchstone (Sandstorm) gives +1 insight bonus on all Charisma-based checks

Magic Items:
Admiral's Bicorne (Stormwrack): +5 bonus on all Charisma-based checks; 51000 gp
Cloak of the Dragon (Dragon #340): +2 enhancement bonus on all Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks; 8400 gp
Horseshoes of Flame (Savage Species): +10 unnamed Cha for 7 hours; intended for horses, but you can just UMD it; 30240 gp
Ring of Fairhair (Firehair) (Dragon #333): +2 sacred bonus to Charisma; 22800 gp

Complacent Human tradeoff for skills isn't worth it.

Prodigy, with it's LA +2, leaves me with 18 point buy which winds up being a huge net-loss on ability scores just to keep Charisma at 12 after the bonus.


This character's classes are also pretty much set at OA Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 4, so he won't be able to make use of any class dips.


The Cloak of the Dragon did give me another idea: wasn't there rules somewhere for changing the type of bonus a magic item applies, say from competence to enhancement? That way he could have a second +skill item.

[Zaq]

The Cloak of the Dragon did give me another idea: wasn't there rules somewhere for changing the type of bonus a magic item applies, say from competence to enhancement? That way he could have a second +skill item.

That’s an Artificer infusion, so the “no help from friendly casters” stipulation interferes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Complacent Human tradeoff for skills isn't worth it.

Prodigy, with it's LA +2, leaves me with 18 point buy which winds up being a huge net-loss on ability scores just to keep Charisma at 12 after the bonus.


This character's classes are also pretty much set at OA Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 4, so he won't be able to make use of any class dips.


The Cloak of the Dragon did give me another idea: wasn't there rules somewhere for changing the type of bonus a magic item applies, say from competence to enhancement? That way he could have a second +skill item.
Nymph's Kiss and/or Karmic Twin will still get you to +31. (In fact, given that they stack, you might drop Skill Focus and take both; that gets you a +30 IF, and an extra +4 on all other Cha checks)

[Doctor Awkward]

That’s an Artificer infusion, so the “no help from friendly casters” stipulation interferes.

Bah...

What about crafting such an item, possibly at an increased cost?

[Zaq]

Bah...

What about crafting such an item, possibly at an increased cost?

Ask your GM. You aren't going to find a black-and-white rule that explicitly allows it.

If you can spare 2 skill points somewhere, you can take the Illiterate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate) trait for a +1 typeless bonus to IF and then buy back your ability to read for 2 skill points.

Is your race locked? Illumians with the Vaul sigil would get another +2. Illumians are a nice race in general.

Now that I think about it, many of the nickel-and-dime bonuses I list in my Truenamer guide would apply here, since IF, like Truespeak, is a "weird" skill that isn't really supported outside of its own book (and therefore you need to find generic skill bonuses to make it higher). What's your minimum return on investment per feat? If you're willing to spend a feat to gain a marginal +1 to your skill of choice, you've actually got a few options. For example, Shape Soulmeld: Lucky Dice can give you a +1 luck bonus to all skill checks (at the cost of your swift action each round), and it can also be used to gain a bonus to attack/damage or to saves if you aren't planning on rolling a skill check on a given round. (If you want better than +1 per feat, you've hit most of the low-hanging fruit already.)

[ShurikVch]

The Cloak of the Dragon did give me another idea: wasn't there rules somewhere for changing the type of bonus a magic item applies, say from competence to enhancement? That way he could have a second +skill item.What, exactly, you want to get there?
Your listed bonus types (in #1) are insight, circumstance, and competence; enhancement bonus is "unoccupied", and should work just fine

[AvatarVecna]

Feats:
Skill Focus: +3 (untyped)
Aereni Focus: constant class skill, +3 (untyped)
Skill Beyond Your Years: +3 ranks
Favored: Pre-req for "Primary Contact"
Primary Contact: +1 rank
Item Familiar: invest skill points for untyped bonus to skill that maxes at the number of ranks you have...so in this case, +13 (untyped)
Nymph's Kiss: +2 (circumstance), makes it easier to max out Item Familiar
Karmic Twin: +2 (untyped)


Traits:
Illiterate: +1 (untyped)
Inattentive: +1 (untyped)

Other:
Base Ranks: +9
Cha (w/ +4 item): +3
Magic Item boosting the skill (Item Familiar): +5 (competence)
Masterwork tool (quick-draw sheathe): +2 (circumstance)

AFAICT, 3.5 traits don't have a rule saying they can't be stacked or always count as a "trait bonus" (with that being a PF thing), so I think you can take both.

So yeah, +48. And there's probably a way to get another +1. Hopefully you've already got a way to sheathe and re-draw for your iterative, I guess?

EDIT: Added Karmic Twin that I saw up-thread.

[Zaq]

Feats:
Skill Focus: +3 (untyped)
Aereni Focus: constant class skill, +3 (untyped)
Skill Beyond Your Years: +3 ranks
Favored: Pre-req for "Primary Contact"
Primary Contact: +1 rank
Item Familiar: invest skill points for untyped bonus to skill that maxes at the number of ranks you have...so in this case, +13 (untyped)
Nymph's Kiss: +2 (circumstance), makes it easier to max out Item Familiar
Karmic Twin: +2 (untyped)


Traits:
Illiterate: +1 (untyped)
Inattentive: +1 (untyped)

Other:
Base Ranks: +9
Cha (w/ +4 item): +3
Magic Item boosting the skill (Item Familiar): +5 (competence)
Masterwork tool (quick-draw sheathe): +2 (circumstance)

AFAICT, 3.5 traits don't have a rule saying they can't be stacked or always count as a "trait bonus" (with that being a PF thing), so I think you can take both.

So yeah, +48. And there's probably a way to get another +1. Hopefully you've already got a way to sheathe and re-draw for your iterative, I guess?

EDIT: Added Karmic Twin that I saw up-thread.

Karmic Twin works if you use unmodified OA, but if you use the Dragon 318 update, it only affects specific skills rather than everything CHA-based.

[Doctor Awkward]

Feats:
Skill Focus: +3 (untyped)
Aereni Focus: constant class skill, +3 (untyped)
Skill Beyond Your Years: +3 ranks
Favored: Pre-req for "Primary Contact"
Primary Contact: +1 rank
Item Familiar: invest skill points for untyped bonus to skill that maxes at the number of ranks you have...so in this case, +13 (untyped)
Nymph's Kiss: +2 (circumstance), makes it easier to max out Item Familiar
Karmic Twin: +2 (untyped)


Traits:
Illiterate: +1 (untyped)
Inattentive: +1 (untyped)

Other:
Base Ranks: +9
Cha (w/ +4 item): +3
Magic Item boosting the skill (Item Familiar): +5 (competence)
Masterwork tool (quick-draw sheathe): +2 (circumstance)

AFAICT, 3.5 traits don't have a rule saying they can't be stacked or always count as a "trait bonus" (with that being a PF thing), so I think you can take both.

So yeah, +48. And there's probably a way to get another +1. Hopefully you've already got a way to sheathe and re-draw for your iterative, I guess?

EDIT: Added Karmic Twin that I saw up-thread.

Yeah that seems to be a pretty exhaustive list of everything so far.

...Though without heavily muting the fluff a lot of those work at cross-purposes:
-Aereni Focus is 1st-level only, and requires you to be an elf.
-Karmic Twin is 1st-level only, is region-specific and requires you to be descended from a particular clan.
-One of the biggest draws for Nymph's Kiss is taking it at first level and getting the extra skill points.


Any further thoughts on Item Familiar + Open-Minded or rules on crafting items and changing their bonus type?