Viable sword-and-board paladin?

[Matrota]

Playing in an upcoming 3.5e game where we're going to be a party of do-good adventurers that are aspiring to be heroes. We're starting at level 1 with one free LA and with all official material allowed, including dragonmags. We have a free regional feat and have access to two traits and two flaws. I may be able to take more than two if need be, but it requires negotiation with the DM. I decided to be the main frontliner of the group, and was looking to play with the theme of a holy warrior who had some minor buffs/healing while he focused mainly on physical combat. I will be playing either a human or some manner of human/elf crossbreed, as the character concept is an old one of mine and I'd like to stick as close to the original concept as possible.

Perhaps in name only, I want to play a paladin. But paladins are infamously dreadful. Not only that, but sword and board has poor damage output with little defensive return. I know crusader generally fits that theme, but I was wondering if anyone had played a classic "paladin" type character and had some pointers for a build path.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you want to use sword & board you can get decent results with From Smite to Song (CoV) and optimizing Inspire Courage, or even getting Dragonfire Inspiration.
You won't outdamage a really optimized ubercharger, but your damage will apply to any strike (not just charges) and also apply to the whole party.
The A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin&p=19866804#post19866804) is probably the most well known build utilizing that.
You don't have to follow it 1 to 1 (in fact it requires DM permission since the substitution levels are mutually exclusive, fluffwise), but it's worth a look for inspiration at least.

[Darrin]

Well, you probably want to start with taking a look at the A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). That isn't strictly a sword-and-board build, but you could do it that way if you wanted to.

However, if you really want to make sword-and-board viable... you could use Agile Shield Fighter to essentially make a TWF build. There's a quirk to the wording of Agile Shield Fighter:

"When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full attack action, you take a –2 penalty on each attack. These penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons." (emphasis added)

This means if you take the entire TWF line, your second and third offhand attacks only incur a -2 penalty, not the -5 and -10 penalties you'd normally get for those offhand attacks.

The problem there is you need a lot of feats to get that working, and Paladin is a pretty feat-starved class. In addition to TWF/Improved TWF/Greater TWF, you'd need Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter. So you'd probably be taking 2-4 levels of Fighter to get all that in place early enough to actually enjoy it. Having access to flaws helps quite a bit.

[Eldariel]

Divine Shield [Complete Warrior] is not a terrible buff for a Pally. Essentially standard action (boo) for ½ character level duration (okay) Charisma to AC (yay!) and touch AC/etc. if you have Shield Ward [PHBII] (double yay!). It's kinda nice if not exactly broken. Also, the offensive Shield-feats like Shield Slam [Complete Warrior] are pretty nice and can give you something for wielding one. Though frankly, there's little reason not to play a Crusader; it's basically Paladin in all but details and it gets the best shield using abilities (Shield Block and Shield Counter maneuvers from Devoted Spirit) of any class in the game while also being really good in general. So it kinda does exactly what you're going for right out of the box.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem there is you need a lot of feats to get that working, and Paladin is a pretty feat-starved class. In addition to TWF/Improved TWF/Greater TWF, you'd need Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter. So you'd probably be taking 2-4 levels of Fighter to get all that in place early enough to actually enjoy it. Having access to flaws helps quite a bit.
You'd also need really high Dex to qualify for Imp/Greater TWF. Since you also presumably want high Str for wearing armor and a shield and Int + Cha for Words of Creation that's probably not going to work.
There's no reason you can't wear Gloves of the Balanced Hand though or go TWF + the gloves. 1 extra attack with Inspire Courage up is better than none.

Another nice damage boost is that a SotAO paladin can cast Greater Mighty Wallop on his shield in addition to his weapon (use a morningstar instead of a sword).

[Elder_Basilisk]

A lot will depend upon the optimization level of your party... However a few things you might consider:
1. Divine might for charisma to damage is a pretty standard feat/ability for any paladin; it helps sword and board a lot.
2. Armbands of might make moderate levels of 1 handed power attack a much more favorable trade. Get some.
3. Consider a short dip into Pious Templar for weapon specialization (not bad by itself but very nice as the prerequisite for melee weapon mastery), mettle, an extra smite, etc.
4. Battle Blessing is nice to make divine favor a swift action casting. More stacking damage bonus.
5. If you have improved unarmed strike for some reason (like a monk dip to get mettle and evasion), at mid levels, the ring of thunderclaps is pretty nice as a 3/day swift action attack that will benefit from your power attack, divine might, divine favor, etc damage bonuses.

Between those sources of damage and a good strength, you should put out plenty of damage for games I would consider mid optimization.

[SirNMN]

Serenity feat from dragon compendium. Lets you use wisdom for all your paladin abilities rather than charisma so to reduce you MAD

[Goaty14]

I have nothing to say, but somebody else does. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields)

[emeraldstreak]

There's advice how to Paladin so far, but no advice how to frontline with all material open. I would consider Troll-Blooded and extending your reach.

As for Paladin, using the expanded DMG mount rules, a Golden Dragon (eventually) excels.

[SirNMN]

There's advice how to Paladin so far, but no advice how to frontline with all material open. I would consider Troll-Blooded and extending your reach.

As for Paladin, using the expanded DMG mount rules, a Golden Dragon (eventually) excels.

So much fun

[Fizban]

Generally if someone is concerned about the "viablility" of a melee build and they have suggested that ToB would be sufficient, I tell them to just use ToB. Because anything else is going to be a hassle and have wildly swinging results. Crusader in particular has the most powerful simple-smash-in-face strike maneuver in Divine Surge, so if that's a concern then that's the one to pack.

For anything more, you have to define what "sword and board," "frontline," and "output/return" mean, because the game has very different ideas from most optimizers. Is this the kind of table where monsters fight, or where they "walk past" the frontline and then the sky falls, or where it doesn't actually matter because the monsters are locked down or one-rounded before acting? Do you fight inside or outside, does terrain ever matter, are large mount accomodated, are you allowed to use expanded mounts from the DMG? How cooperative are your party members: will they stay in formation and retreat as necessary so you can defend them, or do they scatter, or do they just stop wherever and full-round action offense no matter what? Do you fight optimized monsters against which AC and normal attack rolls are *actually* useless, or do you fight normal monsters, or do you fight normal monsters specifically chosen to threaten the party (or to be weak against the party?).

Because as always, there's nothing required for the frontline role other than having enough AC and hp to survive a round or two of monster attacks and swing a weapon. If your table demands more, then how much more?


Fist rank optimization is: remember that the Paladin's best class feature is their mount. The 3.5 DMG canonizes some alternate mount rules that are basically a flat upgrade. At 6th you should be on a Dire Wolf, Unicorn, or Hippogriff, and 7th you should be on a Pegasus or Rhino, and at 8th a Griffon- or whichever or those best fits usability. Your mount lets you deal double damage while charging, while its being large and your lance (which can be used with a shield while mounted) mean you have a 10' space and 20' wide threatened area, and don't forget about soft cover if the enemy's trying to clip through your space. A flying mount with average maneuverability can take Improved Flight to reach good maneuverability, making it better than any flight spell and allowing you to dominate the battlefield against non-flying foes (or even run down most flying foes, just remember you can't charge upwards -but you can run straight up if you're at Good, then dive down at double speed). This is the paladin: paladins stuck indoors and underground where they can't use their mounts are being stealth-nerfed and need to either downgrade to weaker small+riding dog builds, or trade out the mount for something else.

PHB2's Charging Smite is a nice damage focused upgrade to an already effective combat trick (which you can buy more of cheap with Extra Smiting), but it's no mount.

Second rank is to use the stealth-fix spells, most of which are in Spell Compendium. Rhino's Rush, Divine Sacrifice (nerfed, use the Complete Divine version if you can), Knight's Move, Find the Gap, and Righteous Fury (and more) are all basically combat tricks that you can use X/day based on your paladin slots (and Pearls of Power). If you aren't allowed time to buff, then Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) lets you avoid that. If you need more power than you can get from your own slots, wands in Wand Chambers are the next go.

If you need more allied defense than just tactical positioning, taking Combat Expertise and Allied Defense (or the Golden Cup Paladin substitution level from Champions of Valor) lets you share that AC bonus -Golden Cup also gives you some Shield Other, and lets you trade a smite for some extra healing if you want. Drow of the Underdark is hoarding the best tanking feats in Constant and Dutiful Guardian, letting you trade attack to give an ally AC, then switch places with them as an immediate action -but switching won't work when you're mounted of course.

The only thing you need to do to make a shield useful is to use it. Keep your AC at appropriate levels and it will reduce (but not make you immune to) incoming damage as designed. And don't forget you can make a ride check to use your mount for cover to get +4 AC -this comes at no danger to your mount unless your DM is making it do so, and if they are remind them that its a dumb variant because attacks aimed directly at one thing would never hit the cover with the "same" attack roll (and it only even mentions ranged combat in the sidebar).

[Matrota]

I really really like that A-Game Paladin. I think I may end up going for it to be completely honest, though with some minor variations since I do not wish to play an illumian, but a human. Due to DM permitting 4 flaws, this is my current progression table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-QCVlBVtn1WAVUN3YniefyowaXG10kQRzSNlhK_wnpU/edit?usp=sharing). Just need to decide what to do with those 3 feat slots with all the options available...

[Buddy76]

I don't know if that deviates too much from what you're looking for, but you could go cleric 4/ crusader 1/ prestige paladin 3/ ruby knight vindicator 10/ cleric 2. You'd get +18 bab, 16th level cleric casting, devoted spirit maneuvers and stances, plus detect evil, divine grace, aura of courage and divine health.