Help request: Whip build

[eversilentone]

Preamble
Hi folks, I'm looking for some assistance. I'm partial to optimising (not necessarily any good at it!) and am due to start with a new group - I don't think they do optimise and I don't want to run the risk of overshadowing anyone accidentally. For me then, the solution is to optimise to a theme and along those lines I'd like to try to put together a build that uses whip as a primary weapon. I know that it's basically a dagger with reach, but I think that still has some potential, so long as you're not looking for weapon damage to be the main damage component. Similarly I'd like to try to get some utility out of the build given that it's just not possible to push serious damage. I have a few thoughts and a bucket of restrictions, so I'm realistic, but optimistic! Your help is greatly appreciated.

Build Goals (in order of importance)

Playable from level 1
Damage
Control
Mobility


Restrictions

Can only use PHB and XGTE - no SCAG damage cantrips, no UA, no funky races
Cannot include the following classes: Bard, Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Warlock (I don't want to tread on the toes of other party members)
Feats can be used and Variant Human is fine


Musings

Weak weapon damage means other damage sources - with SCAG cantrips out, I think that means: Fighting Styles, Rage, Sneak Attack and Superiority Dice, plus any spells
Multiple weapon attacks are primarily there for insurance against misses - advantage and super-advantage (e.g. Elven Accuracy) are possibly as effective as staying in a class for an Extra Attack
Sneak Attack is possible with a whip regardless of whether you are using Str or Dex; you can get the Rage bonus damage on a whip if you're attacking with Str


Current Build Thoughts

Half-Elf for Elven Accuracy
Barbarian 2 for Rage and bonus damage and for Reckless Attack for advantage
Fighter 1 or Ranger 2 for Fighting Style: Dueling
Fighter 3 for Battle Master archetype and Maneuvers
Ranger 3 for Hunter Conclave and Colossus Slayer
Rogue xx for Sneak Attack


This leads me to think that a Half-Elf Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Ranger 4/Rogue 10 could work, giving me the above with 5d6 Sneak Attack (at 20) 5x ASI, as well as +1 AC from Fighting Style: Defense and great mobility. Sentinel and Maneuvers could be great utility without being OP (therefore 3 ASIs for stat boosts).

My maths is really bad, but I think maximum damage would be:

1d4(whip) +6(proficiency) +5(Str) +2(Rage) +2(Fighting Style:Dueling) +1d8(Superiority Dice) +1d8(Colossus Slayer) +5d6 (Sneak Attack) =44 (+22 from Action Surge=66)


So - suggestions appreciated! And if that seems to work, any suggestions for build order?

Edit: updated damage with Action Surge as SA/CS don't apply twice

[Specter]

Colossus Slayer and Sneak Attack won't apply twice if you Action Surge.

Honestly, I'd just avoid these insane multiclasses if you want a playable character without a headache. All of them work single-classed (except maybe Barbarian).

Personally I'd go Hunter Ranger; with a whip's reach, you can use Horde Breaker often for three attacks, Escape the Horde/Zephyr Strike give you the mobility you want and spells like Entangle and Spike Growth give you the control.

[eversilentone]

Colossus Slayer and Sneak Attack won't apply twice if you Action Surge.

Honestly, I'd just avoid these insane multiclasses if you want a playable character without a headache. All of them work single-classed (except maybe Barbarian).

Personally I'd go Hunter Ranger; with a whip's reach, you can use Horde Breaker often for three attacks, Escape the Horde/Zephyr Strike give you the mobility you want and spells like Entangle and Spike Growth give you the control.

Ah, great catch on the bonus damage stuff, so that makes Action Surge far less impressive and thus Fighter barely relevant.

You're definitely right that Ranger:Hunter gives great options; perhaps that's the way to go. I was just looking for a way to push things as far as I can within some fairly tight restrictions. The Ranger spells are pretty tasty though...

[JellyPooga]

Barbarian (5)/Rogue (15) is your boy here.

Seriously, that's all you need. Barbarian for Rage, proficiency, Reckless and Extra Attack, Rogue for Sneak Attack and Cunning Action to take advantage of that reach. Perfect Whip build.

[eversilentone]

Barbarian (5)/Rogue (15) is your boy here.

Seriously, that's all you need. Barbarian for Rage, proficiency, Reckless and Extra Attack, Rogue for Sneak Attack and Cunning Action to take advantage of that reach. Perfect Whip build.

Extra Attack > ASI?

Extra movement is nice but in this build I'd reckon Scout would be the Rogue archetype to go for, so you'd not be missing out.

[BoxANT]

Rogue (Arcane Trickster)

At level 4 take Spell Sniper (Booming Blade)

Now attack with Booming Blade & Sneak Attack at 10 ft.

Profit.


MATHS:

2.5 whip + 5 dex + 35 sneak + 13.5 boom + 18 bonus boom = 74

[polymphus]

I played around with this for a while and settled on Rogue/Battlemaster. Rogue is your primary (Sneak attack more than offsets the low base damage) and Battlemaster gives you Extra Attack and cool options like whipping the sword out of a bad guy's hand.

[MrStabby]

Rogue (Arcane Trickster)

At level 4 take Spell Sniper (Booming Blade)

Now attack with Booming Blade & Sneak Attack at 10 ft.

Profit.


MATHS:

2.5 whip + 5 dex + 35 sneak + 13.5 boom + 18 bonus boom = 74

No SCAG so no booming blade.

[Aett_Thorn]

Kensai Monk/Ranger or Rogue multiclass. Kensai to make the whip a Monk weapon, so that you get better damage dice on it, and Ranger for either an extra attack or Rogue for one/turn sneak attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Whip really says Rogue to me-- it's the only finessable reach weapon, which makes off-turn Sneak Attack so much easier. Throw in Sentinel to trigger more AoOs.

[bid]

1d4(whip) +6(proficiency) +5(Str) +2(Rage) +2(Fighting Style:Dueling) +1d8(Superiority Dice) +1d8(Colossus Slayer) +5d6 (Sneak Attack) =44 (+22 from Action Surge=66)
How do you get damage from proficiency?

And 1d8 from colossus isn't better than the lost 2d6 SA, I hope you have RP reasons for ranger. At least it works for OA, the loss is minor.

You biggest damage gain will come from extra attack. That second chance if you miss SA changes a lot. Barbarogue is the classic wrestler, but BM 5 works as well.

The usual yadda-yadda is get level 5 before you MC, because extra attack does so much to your DPR.

[Talionis]

Barbarian (5)/Rogue (15) is your boy here.

Seriously, that's all you need. Barbarian for Rage, proficiency, Reckless and Extra Attack, Rogue for Sneak Attack and Cunning Action to take advantage of that reach. Perfect Whip build.

I agree you are going to want an Extra Attack class and then Rogue 15. You have so many limits of will be hard to do much else. Barbarian 5, Fighter 5, Ranger 5 it doesn't really matter.

I think Battle Master Fighter Rogue. You can get Dueling, you have action surge. I'd look at Scout for extra mobility.

I'm saying Fighter 5 over the others because you can focus on Dexterity and be fairly SAD.

[Sigreid]

I'd want to get weird. I'm thinking zealot barbarian would be great. You even get to add some radiant damage to your whip attacks while being an unarmored unkillable madman.

[bid]

I'm saying Fighter 5 over the others because you can focus on Dexterity and be fairly SAD.
I don't like ranger for other reasons, but Wis14 is good for a rogue and your best spells don't have a DC.

I pretty much agree with your conclusion, still.

[eversilentone]

Thanks so much for the suggestions, folks. It seems like Rogue:Scout 15 is seen as the way to go, then 5 levels of Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter:Battle Master? To be honest at this point I suspect that if I could just get the whip onto a Rogue I'd be happy going pure Rogue:Scout, but taking Weapon Master isn't great and significantly delays Elven Accuracy.

I'm really not understanding the necessity for an Extra Attack. I appreciate that with one attack if you miss then you're not only losing weapon damage (etc) but massive Sneak Attack - you'd have flubbed the whole turn. However, Advantage+Elven Accuracy makes that so unlikely - numbers aren't my strong point but looking at a recent thread (I can't post links, sadly!) on the boost ElAc gives, it was around 93.6% hit chance for a super advantage single attack. Of course a second attack with advantage (or super advantage) is just as likely to hit, but it means that 93.6% of the time it's just going to be doing low base damage and the opportunity cost is extra levels in Rogue to bump up Sneak Attack damage that's mostly going to hit?

I don't know, it just feels like taking out a very expensive car insurance policy knowing that if your car is in the garage your courtesy car will be a Jaguar instead of a Renault - amazing when it happens but if you need it often something is going wrong?

[JellyPooga]

If pure Scout Rogue is a temptation, then playing s Hobgoblin will give you Whip proficiency, if I'm not mistaken (I don't have Volo's, so can't confirm this).

[Specter]

Thanks so much for the suggestions, folks. It seems like Rogue:Scout 15 is seen as the way to go, then 5 levels of Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter:Battle Master? To be honest at this point I suspect that if I could just get the whip onto a Rogue I'd be happy going pure Rogue:Scout, but taking Weapon Master isn't great and significantly delays Elven Accuracy.

I'm really not understanding the necessity for an Extra Attack. I appreciate that with one attack if you miss then you're not only losing weapon damage (etc) but massive Sneak Attack - you'd have flubbed the whole turn. However, Advantage+Elven Accuracy makes that so unlikely - numbers aren't my strong point but looking at a recent thread (I can't post links, sadly!) on the boost ElAc gives, it was around 93.6% hit chance for a super advantage single attack. Of course a second attack with advantage (or super advantage) is just as likely to hit, but it means that 93.6% of the time it's just going to be doing low base damage and the opportunity cost is extra levels in Rogue to bump up Sneak Attack damage that's mostly going to hit?

I don't know, it just feels like taking out a very expensive car insurance policy knowing that if your car is in the garage your courtesy car will be a Jaguar instead of a Renault - amazing when it happens but if you need it often something is going wrong?

Where is this constant advantage for your attack coming from? Unless you are guaranteed to hide every round (very hard in melee) or have someone using the Help action for you, don't assume you'll have advantage.

And Extra Attack is just another good feature on top of many others; Fighter, for instance, gives you a fighting style, Action Surge, bonus action healing and maneuvers before Extra Attack.

If you can't decide between Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger, cross Barbarian out: it has a Strenght requirement for multiclass, a stat you'll be happy to dump.

[eversilentone]

Where is this constant advantage for your attack coming from? Unless you are guaranteed to hide every round (very hard in melee) or have someone using the Help action for you, don't assume you'll have advantage.

And Extra Attack is just another good feature on top of many others; Fighter, for instance, gives you a fighting style, Action Surge, bonus action healing and maneuvers before Extra Attack.

If you can't decide between Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger, cross Barbarian out: it has a Strength requirement for multiclass, a stat you'll be happy to dump.

The consistent advantage would be going Str attacks with Barbarian 2 for Reckless Attack - 100% uptime on advantage and therefore ElAc.

Extra Attack is never going to be something I say no to for the sake of it, only weighing up against an opportunity cost. For example, Barbarian 4/Rogue 16 gives an extra ASI over the cost of Barbarian 5/Rogue 15 which instead gives an Extra Attack. Perhaps I over-value ASIs/Feats - I know that in the B4/R16 build that last one only comes online at level 20, whereas you could have literally hundreds of Extra Attacks in that time, hence me asking earlier what folk thought.

[Specter]

The consistent advantage would be going Str attacks with Barbarian 2 for Reckless Attack - 100% uptime on advantage and therefore ElAc.

Extra Attack is never going to be something I say no to for the sake of it, only weighing up against an opportunity cost. For example, Barbarian 4/Rogue 16 gives an extra ASI over the cost of Barbarian 5/Rogue 15 which instead gives an Extra Attack. Perhaps I over-value ASIs/Feats - I know that in the B4/R16 build that last one only comes online at level 20, whereas you could have literally hundreds of Extra Attacks in that time, hence me asking earlier what folk thought.

Reckless Attack and Elven Accuracy don't match. One is for STR attacks, the other is for DEX/INT/WIS/CHA ones.

Think of it like this: you can also use that Extra Attack for grappling/shoving.

[Foxydono]

Barbarian (5)/Rogue (15) is your boy here.

Seriously, that's all you need. Barbarian for Rage, proficiency, Reckless and Extra Attack, Rogue for Sneak Attack and Cunning Action to take advantage of that reach. Perfect Whip build.
I second this option. Start with barbarian for shield proficiency and 12 starting hit points. If you go defence, Bear Totem is probably your best bet. Ancenstral Guardian is very good as well if you get some defence buffs from other players. If you go offence Zealot is the best way to go. As stated above take at least five levels for the extra attack and possibly six if you fancy the path feature. Than go rogue al the way to 13 for Sneak Attack damage evasion and other goodies.

As for feats take sentinal if you are tanky, resilient Wisdom is a good choice always as is Lucky and Alert. And of course maxing your primary stats.

Edit: if you do go 15 in rogue you become proficient in Wisdom saving throws, so if you reach this level don't take resilient Wisdom, unless your DM is nice and offers you to get proficient in another saving throw of his or your choice. Talk to him about this before taking the feat to avoid any misscommunication.

As an alternative you could go barb 5 / Rogue 13 / Fighter 2 for an extra fighting style and action surge. You miss the proficiency in Wisdom saving throws and 1d6 sneak, but that might be worth it.

[JellyPooga]

I second this option. Start with barbarian for shield proficiency and 12 starting hit points. If you go defence, Bear Totem is probably your best bet. Ancenstral Guardian is very good as well if you get some defence buffs from other players. If you go offence Zealot is the best way to go. As stated above take at least five levels for the extra attack and possibly six if you fancy the path feature. Than go rogue al the way to 13 for Sneak Attack damage evasion and other goodies.

As for feats take sentinal if you are tanky, resilient Wisdom is a good choice always as is Lucky and Alert. And of course maxing your primary stats.

To expand a little; I've played this build with Thief Rogue and Wolf Totem Barbarian.

Thief is great in conjunction with Rage, using Fast Hands, good Str and Rage for Advantage for great terrain manipulation. Turning large tables for cover, breaking furniture for difficult terrain and so forth, all as a bonus action, combined with your Reach, gives you a remarkably high level of battlefield control, allowing you to manipulate lines of attack and protect your back line.

Wolf Totem might not be the best option from a personal PoV, but whem foes inevetibly get close, a buddy melee'er will always appreciate the bonus and makes you a target; add resistance from Rage and Umcanny Dodge and you have an amazingly effective Tank.

[Driftw00d]

I'd suggest Battlemaster 8/Scout 12. This gets decent sneak attack damage 7 ASI's and your choice of 2 weapon fighting or Whip and board. From Battlemaster pick up Precision attack, Riposte, and one other to suit your taste (Maybe disarm or trip). Getting fighter 6 nets extra attack and an ASI, going 8 gets you a 5th superiority die and another ASI. Riposte gives you a reliable way to sneak attack on someone else's turn, Precision makes sure you hit on yours.

Scout gets you all the regular rogue goodies and adds 2 more Proficiencies with expertise bringing you up to 10 skills if Half Elf with 6 having expertise making for one heck of a skill monkey.

I know you said no "Funky races" but if you aren't playing AL then consider Tabaxi. Tabaxi gets you 2 skills like half elf but then adds lots of mobility. The Racial "Dash like feature" pairs well with the extra speed from Scout. You also end up getting extra climbing speed from Scout makes for a very mobile character. Heck with 7 feats to spent I'd make sure I pick up mobile to triple up on speed netting you end game 50' base speed + 40' climb speed, both can be doubled almost at will.

[Zanthy1]

I would suggest 5 levels of fighter (because that extra attack is ALWAYS worth it). And the rest rogue, probably scout. Also taking the sentinel feat, and don't forget the archaeologist background.

[Throne12]

So first bladesinger you'll get extra attack and get to add your Int to damage then throw in tenser transformation feat dual weirder. Your looking at
3d4+10+15+6d12. But that not tell 14th lv.

Another build is
Ranger/fighter
7 levels in eldritch knight fighter then Ranger. Pick up the feat magic Initiative druid pick thorn whip.
So war magic give you cantrip the bonus action attack. Then range gives spell Zephyr Strike and Colossus slayer. Then fighting styles +1 AC and +2 to damage. So at level 11 it's. 3d6+1d4+5+2+1d8+1d8

Fighter Battlemaster is
At level 11
3d4+15+6×2 then you get Superiority dice.

[Talionis]

Thanks so much for the suggestions, folks. It seems like Rogue:Scout 15 is seen as the way to go, then 5 levels of Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter:Battle Master? To be honest at this point I suspect that if I could just get the whip onto a Rogue I'd be happy going pure Rogue:Scout, but taking Weapon Master isn't great and significantly delays Elven Accuracy.

I'm really not understanding the necessity for an Extra Attack. I appreciate that with one attack if you miss then you're not only losing weapon damage (etc) but massive Sneak Attack - you'd have flubbed the whole turn. However, Advantage+Elven Accuracy makes that so unlikely - numbers aren't my strong point but looking at a recent thread (I can't post links, sadly!) on the boost ElAc gives, it was around 93.6% hit chance for a super advantage single attack. Of course a second attack with advantage (or super advantage) is just as likely to hit, but it means that 93.6% of the time it's just going to be doing low base damage and the opportunity cost is extra levels in Rogue to bump up Sneak Attack damage that's mostly going to hit?

I don't know, it just feels like taking out a very expensive car insurance policy knowing that if your car is in the garage your courtesy car will be a Jaguar instead of a Renault - amazing when it happens but if you need it often something is going wrong?

Scout 20 is perfectly acceptable.

These are optimizing boards, so most of our suggestions will be to do something to eek out a minor improvement. One of the good and bad things about 5th Edition is that optimization makes significantly less difference. You don't need to optimize to play and be almost as effective. So on so many things its better to do what you think is fun and what you enjoy.

If you choose to dip 5 into a martial class to get Extra Attack you don't need to do it at level one or all the levels at level one. So consider the benefits of starting in some of these other classes, because that may make a difference to you. You may then do something like 1 Fighter/ Rogue 15/ Fighter 4, getting Extra Attack at 20th level. Its all up to you.

Extra Attacks are worth it for a Rogue, especially one that isn't using Booming Blade, which is the real reason to forego the extra attack. I've seen the math on hits and misses and its significant for 5th Edition, but nothing that should trump your overall goal for the character.

For me, I'd want to get Battlemaster from Fighter 3 to give me some mechanical/strategic things that my character can do in combat. Possibly something like Fighter 3/Rogue 11/ Fighter 2/ Rogue 4 might be a good progression. I think it makes the character more interesting. Rogues usually are interesting to play because of their mobility, but the added control tools of Battlemaster compliment that well and give a very dynamic playstyle.

Because mobility was on your list, you might think about Eagle Totem Barbarian levels on your Rogue.

[JellyPooga]

Eagle Totem is a bit wasted on a Rogue/Barbarian build because half the level 3 ability (bonus action Dash) is already duplicated by Cunning Action. If SCAG is in play, then Elk Totem for +15ft speed is gold; that extra speed combined with bonus action Dash from CA gets additive real fast. But OP isn't using SCAG, so that point is, uh, pointless.

[Foxydono]

Eagle Totem is a bit wasted on a Rogue/Barbarian build because half the level 3 ability (bonus action Dash) is already duplicated by Cunning Action. If SCAG is in play, then Elk Totem for +15ft speed is gold; that extra speed combined with bonus action Dash from CA gets additive real fast. But OP isn't using SCAG, so that point is, uh, pointless.
Well he only said no SCAG damage catrips and funky races, so Elk totem might be allowed.

[Vogie]

I would throw 3 levels of Deep Stalker Ranger in there with the Rogue. You get free darkvision, with extra movement and an extra attack in the first part of the encounter.

You could also increase your action economy by going Hunter Ranger for Horde Breaker, giving you additional attacks as long as there are multiple targets

It's a pity you won't touch Warlock, as a 3 level dip for a +1 Whip (pact of the blade & improved pact weapon invocation) and minor spellcasting would be very fun.

[Talionis]

Eagle Totem is a bit wasted on a Rogue/Barbarian build because half the level 3 ability (bonus action Dash) is already duplicated by Cunning Action. If SCAG is in play, then Elk Totem for +15ft speed is gold; that extra speed combined with bonus action Dash from CA gets additive real fast. But OP isn't using SCAG, so that point is, uh, pointless.

I was thinking of the level fourteen Eagle Totem ability and mis-remembered it as the level 6 ability since it gives you the short burst flying speed. But you are right Elk might work

[Crgaston]

Battlemaster is probably ideal in terms of the action economy... At F3/R5, Riposte and uncanny Dodge let you use your Reaction every round of combat that you are attacked (until you run out of Superiority Dice).

I think maybe putting all your eggs in the Elven Accuracy basket is somewhat misdirected. It’s a lot easier to qualify for SA damage than it is to get advantage.

Just teaming up with another melee combatant is a good idea anyway... Focussing on one until he drops then moving on to the next target decreases enemy DPR over the course of a fight. And two (or three) attacks is strictly superior to normal advantage in that you at least have the opportunity to hit twice.

Back to EA... you could keep Str and Dex relatively close, use one attack with Athletics Expertise to shove prone and use the other with Dex for the EA+Sneak. You could do the same with Shield Master and 1 Attack, though you’d be sacrificing your Cunning Action with that strategy, and in either case you wouldn’t be taking advantage of your reach.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Back to EA... you could keep Str and Dex relatively close, use one attack with Athletics Expertise to shove prone and use the other with Dex for the EA+Sneak. You could do the same with Shield Master and 1 Attack, though you’d be sacrificing your Cunning Action with that strategy, and in either case you wouldn’t be taking advantage of your reach.
Or you could just focus on Strength for more Athletics, because you don't have to use Dex to get Sneak Attack, you just have to use a weapon that could use Dex.

[Wryte]

No SCAG so no booming blade.

Booming Blade also specifies that the melee attack has to be against a creature within 5ft, so using a whip with it is pointless in the first place.

As I discovered while fighting a remorhaz with an eldritch knight and thinking I'd found a clever way around being hit by its steam damage...

[Crgaston]

Or you could just focus on Strength for more Athletics, because you don't have to use Dex to get Sneak Attack, you just have to use a weapon that could use Dex.

Yes, you could, but the EA there refers to Elven Accuracy, which doesn’t work with strength. Sorry it wasn’t clear!

[Unoriginal]

If you play a Bugbear, is the racial increased range added to the whip's range?

[Aett_Thorn]

If you play a Bugbear, is the racial increased range added to the whip's range?

Yes, it is indeed

[MxKit]

If you play a Bugbear, is the racial increased range added to the whip's range?


Yes, it is indeed

Specifically, it is, but not on any attacks of opportunity you make.

That's still really good, though. A 15-foot reach when you attack on your turn, and a 10-foot reach at all other times, is definitely nice to have!

[Unoriginal]

Maybe Cavalier could be good with a whip?

[Vogie]

Maybe Cavalier could be good with a whip?

Actually Cavalier would work great with a whip build, as your melee attacks are much longer than normal, plus if anyone you hit gets too close, they're disadvantaged automatically. Maybe Cavalier Fighter 11 / Swashbuckler Rogue 9 would be a good blend

It'd start with Fighter 3 then rogue 3, then go back and forth (fighter 7 then rogue 7 then fighter 10, rogue 9, fighter 11) until you get it all down