Can you build a low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or...

[8wGremlin]

Can you build an effective low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or or low Int Wizard.

Just how effective would they be?

[Estoma]

I'm going to make the obvious comment...not very. Your spells are going to suffer, and you'll have less of them.

I suppose you'd be looking for spells that don't have a DC and just take effect. For example, 'magic mouth' or 'hex'.

As a druid, you could do your fighting in wildhshape where you wouldn't be casting spells anyway.

Though, saying this, even if your main stat is low, you could still be a useful member of your party with other skills. Who doesn't want a wizard who can kick down doors like a barbarian?

I think my main question is, why would you want to play a character who is essentially crippled in their main area? :)

[Quoz]

At low levels or for a very short campaign, maybe. If you keep your casting stat at 13 for multiclass, I guess you can but probably only as a dip. One exception may be moon druids but why wouldn't you since your physical stats don't matter?

If you pick your spells carefully for buffs, this is doable. But you lose anything offensive, since your spell attacks and saving throws rely on your casting ability. So there may be a few odd builds like a melee GWM sorcerer that spends all his spells on sorcery points to twin and quicken greenflame blade, but even those will probably want a minimum 14.

[Alderic78]

Moon Druid possibly. With a careful selection of spell you might not suffer too much, but the question is: low as in 13 something, or low as in 8 ?

Sorcerer, I doubt it.

Warlock, sure, be a non hexblade bladelock, there are builds out there that focus on strength and have lowish charisma... but it still isn't a dump stat, since you'll benefit from it later on.


Why would you ?

[Asmotherion]

Moon Druid, engage in combat in beast form (latter also via polymorph). Use spells for utility, healing and buff purposes.

Dex Based Bladelock, non Hexblade, especially with the addition of Shadow Blade. Or Str based if you intend to go for heavy armor. That said, it's regretable, as you loose a lot of options from a low Cha (or at least not having a decent bonus at all).

Dex Based Divine Soul Sorcerer may play well as a Gish Necromancer, as long as he also gets Shadow Blade, Booming Blade, Animate Dead and Hex via Magic Initiate.

You can play a low Int Abjurer Wizard (as low as 13), focusing on abjuration and utility spells, and dip 2-3 levels of Hexblade Warlock to deal damage as an Eldritch Blaster/Gish (Switching between roles as needed). All the rest of your spells can be buffs, non-resist spells and utility spells as well as abjurations to recharge your Arcane Ward (which is very usefull on a melee character).

Anything else?

[holywhippet]

You could make a bard that is still fairly effective under those restrictions. Consider their spell list - there are a fair number of spells that don't require any attack rolls or saving throws or don't matter as much. Heat metal is a fairly reliable damage spell for bards and the only saving throw is to determine if the enemy drops the item or gets disadvantage on their next attack. You won't be as good in combat I will say, but there are all sorts of advantages you can give to your allies out of combat.

[Specter]

You can do a decent version of all of these. If a totally optimized character would be a 10, these people would be a 5 at their best.

The question is: why? There's never not enough attributes not to pump your main stat, and as a concept it's always lame. If I'm a player and another player at the table suggests something like this, I immediately disregard him completely.

[Unoriginal]

Can you build an effective low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or or low Int Wizard.

Just how effective would they be?

Define effective.

They wouldn't be helpless or useless, but they would have less options and be less efficient than one who do have 14+ in the stat.

[nickl_2000]

In levels 1-6 you can pretty easily do it, at higher levels it would still be possible.

A Stone Sorcerer could easily be focus on Booming Blade with a Dex or Str based weapon, the Shield spell and buffs. Then once you hit level 3 you focus on Haste.

A Moon Druid needs a good concentration check and can survive very well without high Wisdom by Conjuring animals or using other non damaging spells.

A Bladesinger likewise could focus on booming blade and blade dance and dex attacks and haste and still be very effective.


With casters you just focus on buffing spells, shield, and other such spells that don't use your primary casting stat. You still will also have utility spells like mage hand sitting around.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Why would you ?

Because you want to play someone who chose their career based on what they like to do or what they think is needed in the world, not what they're good at. The son of a barbarian chief, destined for greatness, lifting oxes at the age of 11, sees a real battle and decides to become a druid to restore the destruction humans wreak on their environment.

I wouldn't recommend it outside of a specific low optimization campaign though, except perhaps if:
1 You're over level 10 and the other players are non-casters/lower tier characters.
2 This is a story thing and you have agreed on some sort of way you'll get better (like you're secretly an elven prince with charisma through the roof, but you were cursed to be an old low charisma gnome.

[Estoma]

Because you want to play someone who chose their career based on what they like to do or what they think is needed in the world, not what they're good at. The son of a barbarian chief, destined for greatness, lifting oxes at the age of 11, sees a real battle and decides to become a druid to restore the destruction humans wreak on their environment.

I wouldn't recommend it outside of a specific low optimization campaign though, except perhaps if:
1 You're over level 10 and the other players are non-casters/lower tier characters.
2 This is a story thing and you have agreed on some sort of way you'll get better (like you're secretly an elven prince with charisma through the roof, but you were cursed to be an old low charisma gnome.

It could also be an amusing idea for a oneshot. It's always entertaining when a player totally bombs at something they're meant to be good at. I'm imagining Sir Gadabout from that kids TV show about 15 years ago. But I think playing it long-term would get a bit disappointing as your options were limited.

[Spacehamster]

You can do a decent version of all of these. If a totally optimized character would be a 10, these people would be a 5 at their best.

The question is: why? There's never not enough attributes not to pump your main stat, and as a concept it's always lame. If I'm a player and another player at the table suggests something like this, I immediately disregard him completely.

Wow so cause somebody want to try something different non optimal you disregard them completely? xD That’s kinda harsh no? Although as a full caster, even a valor/swords bard or a blade singer I agree I would not want my casting stat too low, can defo see it resting on 18 instead of 20, perhaps 16 but that is maybe to low to tolerate as a full caster. But leaving it at 16-18 and getting higher martial stats and a feat or two I can defo see as a interesting alternate to maxing it out.

[Vogie]

Yes, provided you know about it going in. And that's part of the draw in Multiclassing... finding out the minimum effective value of each class and exploiting that.

[Tetrasodium]

Can you build an effective low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or or low Int Wizard.

Just how effective would they be?


Moon druid (kobold especially) can do fine as a low wis character if their gm is willing to let them find/wear heavy armor(because most tankyish wildshape forms have very little if any dex). But there will still be situations where you want to hag back & use cantrips rather than burn a charge of wildshape so you don't want to treat wis like a dump stat.

[mephnick]

If your table doesn't allow that SAD hexblade crap, you can make a perfectly fine bladelock with a fighter dip with no CHA. One could even say it didn't need to be made obsolete by power creep in the first place.

[Talionis]

Yes, provided you know about it going in. And that's part of the draw in Multiclassing... finding out the minimum effective value of each class and exploiting that.

The caveat here is that if you multiclass you have to have 13 in these stats. So really quickly 13 isn't a dump stat, but its also not really a good stat either. So when you are really dumping your casting stat, you can't multiclass. If you you do multiclass you have put some points in a Stat but not enough to be at a high level. -- Once you have put 13 into a Stat, there should be a real question whether you don't go ahead and max the stat. This creates a difficult tension when planning out the character.

Dumping your casting stat is by definition not optimal. But conversely if you are going to do it, I think you should pay more attention to optimizing, so that you can effectively use what resources and abilities are left to that character effectively.

Most likely if you are dumping the casting stat, you aren't using the attack cantrips other than Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade. Both those spells key off your Dex or Strength to hit. Since at least 1/3 of normal games is combat you'll want to figure out some mechanic that works for you in combat.

I think Warlock can do a wonderful melee character Dex or Strength. They have invocations that allow for Extra Attack even if Lifedrinker at 12 isn't going to add damage to your attack, you have some decent invocations from Xanathar that will.

[Laserlight]

Wow so cause somebody want to try something different non optimal you disregard them completely? xD

I don't ask for a PC to be fully optimized--in fact I encourage my players to build in significant weaknesses--but I do expect them to be reasonably competent at their main job. A 16 in your casting stat is fine; an 8 is not. It's the sort of thing that for the first three seconds of thought sounds like a creative idea, but should be slapped down because it makes things harder for the DM who's trying to provide a reasonable challenge and for the other PCs who are trying to keep you alive. Assuming they are, for some reason, trying to keep you alive.

[white lancer]

Might as well ask if you could build a martial character with low STR/DEX. You'll be a little outclassed by the rest of the party...though it's worth noting that with bounded accuracy, the extent to which you'll be overshadowed isn't all that extreme. You'll still probably be able to hit things with your spells, just less often--think your typical low-STR Wizard trying to brain someone with their staff.

We had a game in 3.5 where we randomly rolled our class/race combination, and I wound up with a half-orc sorcerer. Started with 12 CHA and pumped it every four levels. I had to be very careful with my spell selection in that game: actively avoided anything that required saving throws, so I wound up with a lot of buffs and utility spells. He still wound up as one of the most useful characters in the party, but that might be a reflection of how much more powerful spellcasters were than martial classes in that edition (and there were still fights where I was reduced to throwing around Magic Missiles after I had Hasted everyone up). And a 12 CHA is not great, but it's no 8 either. At least you can actually cast spells with 8 in your casting slot in 5e, but your options would be way limited...and isn't having options one of the main draws to playing a caster?

[Vogie]

The caveat here is that if you multiclass you have to have 13 in these stats. So really quickly 13 isn't a dump stat, but its also not really a good stat either. So when you are really dumping your casting stat, you can't multiclass. If you you do multiclass you have put some points in a Stat but not enough to be at a high level. -- Once you have put 13 into a Stat, there should be a real question whether you don't go ahead and max the stat. This creates a difficult tension when planning out the character.

Dumping your casting stat is by definition not optimal. But conversely if you are going to do it, I think you should pay more attention to optimizing, so that you can effectively use what resources and abilities are left to that character effectively.

Dumping your casting stat is only not optimal when you're trying to optimize your casting. If all of the spells you are trying to access don't actually need your casting stat, then dump away. If a Fighter wants to pick up the Darkvision-Darkness Combo, for example, there are several ways to do it. However, why would they dip into Shadow Sorcerer or Way of the Shadow Monk... when dipping into Warlock gives the same combo, plus a +1 magic bladepact weapon from it? That's not "un-optimized" - that's precisely what he or she wants. Yes, they may get some other things from it, spells even, but that's not the goal.

Apply your logic to a non-D&D context. Say I want a fast car that looks great, so I purchase a great-looking car that has the ability to travel 200 mph. By your logic, I am "not optimizing" by not actually travelling at 200 mph. However, that car has everything that I wanted - for me, it's Optimal.

A moon druid that wants to be in Wild Shape all the time doesn't need to have a huge wisdom - dumping their Wisdom makes sense, as does maybe MCing into a class that can give them more protection while not wild shaped?

[GlenSmash!]

It's possible to pick and use only spells that don't have attack rolls or force saves. You could contribute but would have a limited bag of tricks.

[Dudewithknives]

Certain classes can do it much better:

Druid can pull off low wis and just center on healing, buffs, non-save non-to hit spells, and wild shape.

Wizards might can pull it off if you were blade singer and went mainly dex and just used INT for buffs and things.

Sorcerers MIGHT could get by with a draconic sorcerer but it would not be very good. If UA then you might could do something with stone sorcerer but not great.

Bard with low Cha could still be pretty good with archery or swords if they went Valor/Swords colleges and use magical secrets for non-stat using spells.

Warlock can do it pretty easily as a Eldritch Smiting Blade Pact archer. I played one, I almost never cast a spell at all, it was just smiting with spell slots, also darkness has no save.

[Jamesps]

Stone Sorcerors seem designed with this in mind. Their class features require a decent strength and constitution, and allow you to do decent damage with just your strength attribute. There are plenty of good close-combat spells that don't require your casting attribute. Blink, Blur, Shield, Mirror image, Booming and Greenflame Blade. You'll probably start to poop out a bit at high levels, but up through 9th you should be pretty decent at what you do.

[Talionis]

Dumping your casting stat is only not optimal when you're trying to optimize your casting. If all of the spells you are trying to access don't actually need your casting stat, then dump away. If a Fighter wants to pick up the Darkvision-Darkness Combo, for example, there are several ways to do it. However, why would they dip into Shadow Sorcerer or Way of the Shadow Monk... when dipping into Warlock gives the same combo, plus a +1 magic bladepact weapon from it? That's not "un-optimized" - that's precisely what he or she wants. Yes, they may get some other things from it, spells even, but that's not the goal.

Apply your logic to a non-D&D context. Say I want a fast car that looks great, so I purchase a great-looking car that has the ability to travel 200 mph. By your logic, I am "not optimizing" by not actually travelling at 200 mph. However, that car has everything that I wanted - for me, it's Optimal.

A moon druid that wants to be in Wild Shape all the time doesn't need to have a huge wisdom - dumping their Wisdom makes sense, as does maybe MCing into a class that can give them more protection while not wild shaped?

My critique was only about multiclassing still requiring the 13 which isn't maxing nor is it dumping the Stat.

I can see characters that pick spells that don't have a to hit or save check associated with them. But often with those types of builds you'd want to multiclass. Then you get this added tension of investing some stat points into a casting Stat you were otherwise trying to dump.

I said: "Dumping your casting stat is by definition not optimal. But conversely if you are going to do it, I think you should pay more attention to optimizing, so that you can effectively use what resources and abilities are left to that character effectively."

Part of optimizing after you decide to dump your casting stat is picking spells that don't have save's or to hits. It also means trying to find minor non-casting abilities that you can optimize. Even many of those abilities will be driven by the casting stat. A good example of this is a Draconic Sorcerer adding his charisma to the elemental damage he does that is the same has his draconic lineage. So often you are casting aside many abilities other than just your casting abilities when you dump your casting stat.

I think it can be done. I think it can be fun, and effective. More effective for some classes than others, but it requires a lot more attention to optimize the fewer abilities and spells that don't rely on the casting stat.

[strangebloke]

Shadow sorcerer is my pick.

Mage armor, shield, shadow blade, and green flame blade are going to be your best friends. You dash in, throw up darkness, and kick butt.

Hill dwarf gives you some weapon proficiencies and extra hp. Drow gives you better stats and weapon proficiencies, and the sunlight sensitivity shouldn't be a problem.

Gfb + shadow blade will keep you competetive with respect to melee DPR, although at early levels shadow blade isn't really worth it. Boost your con so that you'll eventually have as much resilience as other melee characters...

And you might be a reasonably effective, if limited, character.

Arguably, Divine Soul is even better, since it has shield of faith and holy sword.

The issue you'll run into is that all the good spells for you will require concentration.

[MrStabby]

I played a feypact warlock with dumped charisma. I think it was 7 or 8. It worked really pretty well. A lot of the fey spells (invisability for example) need no save and work pretty well with just smashing face.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The question really translates to "how effective a gish can this spellcaster be?" methinks.


You could make a bard that is still fairly effective under those restrictions. Consider their spell list - there are a fair number of spells that don't require any attack rolls or saving throws or don't matter as much. Heat metal is a fairly reliable damage spell for bards and the only saving throw is to determine if the enemy drops the item or gets disadvantage on their next attack. You won't be as good in combat I will say, but there are all sorts of advantages you can give to your allies out of combat.
I feel like Bards actually suffer more than many other classes who dump their primary ability score, as it hurts your inspiration die count a lot.

[Sigreid]

Can you? Sure. You would probably want to focus on buffs and healing.

Should you? Probably not. Sooner or later you will feel like a burden instead of an asset to the party.

[Strangways]

Can you build an effective low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or or low Int Wizard.

Just how effective would they be?

Moon Druid, yes. Your spells will have a low DC, so you'll have to focus on utility/buffing spells or attack roll spells, though Druids don't have many of the latter. But if you're going to spend most of your time meleeing in beast form, that's not a huge deal. You wouldn't be optimally effective, but wouldn't be completely broken either. But why would you? Moon Druid isn't dependent on physical stats, because he has the physical stats of his beast form, and INT and CHA aren't terribly useful for a Moon Druid, so why wouldn't you put two ASIs in WIS to max your primary casting stat?

[Naanomi]

DEX based dragon sorcerer, quickening Booming Blade and the like, is fairly reasonable.

A moon Druid who spends time in combat wildshapes, uses ASI to collect feats that apply to Wildshape combat... not shabby

Using Shillelegh and/or Magic Stone one can make competent martial characters without a traditional physical attack stat

[Tanarii]

Yes. Pact of the Blade Warlock and Valor Bard in particular lend themselves to low-ish Cha. Str/Dex/Con builds can still be very effective, focusing spells on information gathering and defenses/buffs. Bards suffer on the Bardic Inspiration front pretty heavily though, it's a major class feature.

[BW022]

Can you build an effective low Wis Druid? Can you build a low Cha Sorcerer, or Warlock, or or low Int Wizard.

Sure.


Just how effective would they be?

That is going to depend on the player, the other players, the campaign, etc. Examples...

1. It's a roleplaying heavy campaign. You have enough general skills and are a good role player. For example, a wizard how makes good use of rituals/utility spells and his familiar.

2. The main roles of the party are filled and you are a jack-of-trades type character. For example, your party has an arcane caster and a good tank and you are a bladelock or valor bard. You help the rest of the party, off-tank, help the wizard with the occasional spell, etc. without relying on it. Maybe you rely on healing or buffing others.

3. You have a good ability/tactics which work well. For example, warlock with devil's site and darkness. A high-dexterity elven druid who uses a bow, sharpshooter, and true strike. Maybe an abjuration wizard who goes defensive and uses shield all the time.

4. The campaign has a lot of limitations on classes/abilities anyway. Water-based campaign, one with lots of mounts, lots of fighting in darkness, etc. such that other characters probably aren't optimal either. The ranger can't see it use his bow that much, the fighter can't wear his heavy armor all the time, etc. I.e. other characters aren't necessarily dominating you.

5. You are a pretty resourceful player. You are making use of ambushes, stealth, surprise, traps, etc. You are good are puzzle solving, using spells effectively, tactics, etc.

6. You have other good stats and focus on those. Druid or cleric with a high strength can still be good in melee. A high dexterity sorcerer can still use a crossbow.