My player accepts multiclass XP penalty without flinching

[Jon_Dahl]

I have a new player in my group. I haven't played with him and actually I haven't even met him yet. I recruited him online and my brother knows him, so he shouldn't be an axe murderer. The thing is that he made a halfling warmage/cleric and I told him that I have enforced multiclass penalties for my players, but since he's new, I'm willing to overlook the XP penalty just this once. I also offered him to buy a Cloak of the Mankind for 4k gp that removes all XP penalties (while in use), but he didn't want one. He actually said that he was cool with the 20% XP penalty. I was flabbergasted. Do you think that I should be worried that he doesn't care about the penalty? And please notice that I could ignore the whole multiclass XP penalty rule, but my group has been ok with it so our group accepts the rule. It's just that this is the first time that someone doesn't avoid getting penalized!

[Fizban]

It'll put him maybe a level behind, the warmage/cleric is the bigger problem. Maybe he thinks Divine Metamagic will work on Warmage spells so he'll still come out ahead?

[Crake]

It'll put him maybe a level behind, the warmage/cleric is the bigger problem. Maybe he thinks Divine Metamagic will work on Warmage spells so he'll still come out ahead?

If he's new, he probably hasn't even heard of divine metamagic.

Honestly though, sometimes players just need to learn the hard way that what they're doing isn't gonna work. Let him live through it, and hell understand far better for the future.

[Knaight]

Honestly though, sometimes players just need to learn the hard way that what they're doing isn't gonna work. Let him live through it, and hell understand far better for the future.

It doesn't hurt to give a warning, particularly for a campaign game. Ending up with a useless character by accident sucks.

[Mordaedil]

The multiclass XP penalty is really just a problem when it punishes martial characters who are already struggling keeping up with casters.

It's not a huge problem for somebody already getting decent benefits from his casting classes.

[Knaight]

The multiclass XP penalty is really just a problem when it punishes martial characters who are already struggling keeping up with casters.

It's not a huge problem for somebody already getting decent benefits from his casting classes.

Even if he goes Mystic Theurge this caster multiclass is already far, far below par for a caster compared to basically any single class caster, including Adept.

[martixy]

It doesn't hurt to give a warning, particularly for a campaign game. Ending up with a useless character by accident sucks.

I certainly wish someone had told me that when I started PnP D&D. Boy, was I green behind the ears then.

It also doesn't hurt to explain some basic optimization theory to him either.

[Pelle]

Accepting the character creation rules given by the DM/game, sure sounds like a problem player...

[DrMotives]

I certainly wish someone had told me that when I started PnP D&D. Boy, was I green behind the ears then.

It also doesn't hurt to explain some basic optimization theory to him either.

That's quite a mixed metaphor you have there. It's either you're green (like an underripe fruit or veggie) or you're wet behind the ears (like a newborn baby who hasn't been completely dried off yet). Green behind the ears, I don't know.

[Zaq]

That's quite a mixed metaphor you have there. It's either you're green (like an underripe fruit or veggie) or you're wet behind the ears (like a newborn baby who hasn't been completely dried off yet). Green behind the ears, I don't know.

martixy obviously meant that they had a patch of green scales behind their ears, like a rilkan. As we all know, rilkan are very unoptimized as a race, which is how martixy felt.

[NomGarret]

I think given that the player got fair warning, the best thing to do now is run with it and be open to changes later on. Whether that’s by tossing him the aforementioned item or allowing some degree of rebuild. You said new player, but it wasn’t clear whether he’s simply new to you and your group or the game in general. Either way, there can be some bumps in aligning play styles. Sometimes the right thing to do is try it and let the player make the call when it’s time to adjust.

[King of Nowhere]

If he's new, he probably hasn't even heard of divine metamagic.

Honestly though, sometimes players just need to learn the hard way that what they're doing isn't gonna work. Let him live through it, and hell understand far better for the future.
Some lessons can only be learned the hard way.

It doesn't hurt to give a warning, particularly for a campaign game. Ending up with a useless character by accident sucks.
warning is fine, but often unheeded. But when the guy will realize his character suck hard, just let him make a new one, or completely reshape the chapracter.


The multiclass XP penalty is really just a problem when it punishes martial characters who are already struggling keeping up with casters.

It's not a huge problem for somebody already getting decent benefits from his casting classes.
That's wrong thinking with a new player. A new player does NOT know how to play a caster. You can count on him always using the wrong spells. A caster in the hands of an inexperienced player will actually be weaker than a martial. At least the martial can tank ("but the caster can tank with protection spells", I can hear you scream. Well, go read again what I wrote about not using the right spells)

[Aimeryan]

That's wrong thinking with a new player. A new player does NOT know how to play a caster. You can count on him always using the wrong spells. A caster in the hands of an inexperienced player will actually be weaker than a martial. At least the martial can tank ("but the caster can tank with protection spells", I can hear you scream. Well, go read again what I wrote about not using the right spells)

Prepared spellcasters get the right spells pretty quickly just by trying out spells and dropping the bad ones.

Furthermore, even spontaneous spellcasters will get some good gems if they bother to read the spells and are capable of thought - a first time player of a Sorcerer was able to determine that Grease and Color Spray would be strong level 1 spells to pick up, and Glitterdust for a level 2 spell.

It only works out less favourably for a spellcaster of a first time player if they are determined to be damage dealers. Could just be my friends but they all realised pretty quickly that if the martial characters were focused on dealing damage (and they can't really do much else so...) then they as casters should fill in other gaps. Didn't take long from there for the imbalance to creep in.

[Sheogoroth]

Multiclass penalty is stupid and arbitrary, just let him play what he wants!

[Telonius]

This seems like the classic case of a parent who sits down in the comfy chair, notices it's "too quiet" and assumes their kids are up to something. Everybody's had or heard of so many cases of munchkinism that it almost seems weird for somebody to not be out to game the system.

As for why, it's possible they're trying to avoid favoritism. If they're trying to integrate into the group, they don't want to start out on the wrong foot. Or maybe they like a challenge and don't want to have their first run on "Easy" mode.

Anyway, the group is fine with the existence of the penalty, and the player doesn't seem to mind it either. Just proceed normally. Nothing's broke, so don't fix it.

[martixy]

martixy obviously meant that they had a patch of green scales behind their ears, like a rilkan. As we all know, rilkan are very unoptimized as a race, which is how martixy felt.

Rilkan, yes, let's go with that. So, yea. Duh.

Don't let the dude/duddess bury themselves, help them out.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Pelle
Accepting the character creation rules given by the DM/game, sure sounds like a problem player....


Originally Posted by Telonius
…the group is fine with the existence of the penalty, and the player doesn't seem to mind it either. Just proceed normally. Nothing's broke, so don't fix it.

Agreed on all counts. I’m just not seeing a problem here.


Originally Posted by King of Nowhere
That's wrong thinking with a new player. A new player does NOT know how to play a caster. You can count on him always using the wrong spells. A caster in the hands of an inexperienced player will actually be weaker than a martial.

This is prejudiced and incorrect.

In my very first 3.5 game I played a druid. I was managing combat, healing, spellcasting, and an animal companion, and I did fine. No one in my group accused me of using “the wrong spells,” whatever that means. No one complained early in the game, when I hit everything with flaming spheres, and no one complained later in the game when I was wildshaping into girallons and ripping things apart.

Don’t presume new players are somehow idiots. They aren’t. We were all new players once, and some of us managed quite well.

[Mordaedil]

That's wrong thinking with a new player. A new player does NOT know how to play a caster. You can count on him always using the wrong spells. A caster in the hands of an inexperienced player will actually be weaker than a martial. At least the martial can tank ("but the caster can tank with protection spells", I can hear you scream. Well, go read again what I wrote about not using the right spells)
There's not that many cleric spells he can pick that would be "wrong spells" to pick. And if he's playing warmage, I don't think he can be entirely new to the game, but even if he is, the warmage has a fairly limited selection of spells that should make him good at blasting, which is probably what he's going to be doing. I don't think it's that difficult to play a caster well for even a new player, but they aren't going to play optimally, but that's still fine.

[King of Nowhere]

Prepared spellcasters get the right spells pretty quickly just by trying out spells and dropping the bad ones.

Furthermore, even spontaneous spellcasters will get some good gems if they bother to read the spells and are capable of thought

You are vastly underestimating the amount of people who do not bother to read the spells and are not capable of looking past the glitter.
I've seen a lot of cases of tier 1 casters being less effective than martials even at mid-high levels because the player didn't understand how to play, or didn't even bother trying. Including people with previous exeprience,
All of you guys who answered "but I wasn't like that" do not count because you are writing in this forum. This make you exceptions. You are the ones who are invested enough, care enough to read the manuals and think through it. And since people tend to hang around with similar-minded people, your friends also don't count.
The average casual player is not interested enough to read the descriptions of the various spells beyond the little summarry in the spell list, or to think on how their spells could fit with the rest of the party. They'll just pick what deals the most damage or what sounds more cool. They'll add to their spell list as they level up and never bother to read it again, think if they may have better spells, or even consider that they've never used some of their spells. Heck, a lot of them will have powerful spells but will still use weapons first.
Just because people posting in this forum are not that kind of player, and generally distanced themselves from that kind of players enough that they eventually forgot they exist, it doens't mean there aren't a lot of them out there.

[legomaster00156]

I'm confused about a basic premise. You know that multiclass XP penalties suck, and you'll work around them for a super-cheap magic item (taking up a critical slot), but enforce the XP penalties nonetheless? :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

I'm not sure what he's supposed to be not understanding about this situation. It's n XP penalty. It's going to be pretty awful regardless of game or system, and in a way that's pretty easy to understand. There's not much extra information you can provide. Gotta agree with other folks also that using an idiotic rule that you apparently go to great lengths to not have happen is pretty weird.

[DEMON]

I'm not sure what he's supposed to be not understanding about this situation. It's n XP penalty. It's going to be pretty awful regardless of game or system, and in a way that's pretty easy to understand. There's not much extra information you can provide.

Devil's advocate to the RES-Q!

If it is his new game, maybe he just does not comprehend, how much of an issue that is.

"I want to play a Cleric/Warmage" - presumabely he wants to both heal and blast and thinks this is the best way to do it?
"You will get an XP penalty for multiclassing, if you do that"
"Oh well, so be it." - he accepts the rules, he does not think it's such a big of a deal, perhaps, or he believes his character concept is so great it will overcome this hurdle with ease...

[eggynack]

Devil's advocate to the RES-Q!

If it is his new game, maybe he just does not comprehend, how much of an issue that is.

"I want to play a Cleric/Warmage" - presumabely he wants to both heal and blast and thinks this is the best way to do it?
"You will get an XP penalty for multiclassing, if you do that"
"Oh well, so be it." - he accepts the rules, he does not think it's such a big of a deal, perhaps, or he believes his character concept is so great it will overcome this hurdle with ease...
How much of an issue could it plausibly not be though? It's pretty straightforwardly and obviously, "You are going to be a level or two behind some of the time." I think, anyway. I haven't done the math. It's something like that though, and something that that is pretty bad across all games. I guess the OP could say, "Levels are pretty frigging useful in this game."

[ericgrau]

How much of an issue could it plausibly not be though? It's pretty straightforwardly and obviously, "You are going to be a level or two behind some of the time." I think, anyway. I haven't done the math. It's something like that though, and something that that is pretty bad across all games. I guess the OP could say, "Levels are pretty frigging useful in this game."

He'll only be 1 level behind forever, because he'll get extra xp for being behind. Actually it will take 4 levels before he's a full level behind. If he fixes it before then he won't be so far behind.

That's why in spite of all the extreme hate it's actually not a bad rule to balance out excessive multiclassing among other single classed players... except that after the rule was made prestige classes got way out of hand and the rule doesn't affect them. Originally, per the DMG, prestige classes were supposed to be by special permission only. So unless you get super restrictive on prestige classes it isn't fair to him if other players are prestiging willy nilly.

On top of that he has a bad class combination: 2 casters. If it was a good combination then it might be worth the 1 level hit when playing among single classed characters. Plus he doesn't/can't have favored class in either class. Or if he even just advanced them equally he wouldn't get the xp penalty either. Really the rule is for taking 3+ classes, or for picking both a weird race and disparate levels.

I have a simple houserule for this:
Increase arcane caster level by 1 for every 2 levels in other classes. Increase divine caster level by for every 4 levels in other classes. These bonus levels may not exceed actual levels. They apply to caster level, spells known and spells per day, but nothing else. This rule replaces mystic theurge and similar prestige classes.

So a warmage 4 / cleric 2 would cast like a warmage 5 / cleric 3. And he doesn't have to wait until level 8-10 to stop sucking. Or he can advance both classes equally without sucking so hard.

[KillingAScarab]

The thing is that he made a halfling warmage/cleric...Getting back to this, how out-of-balance are we talking here? Is this going to be 1 level of one class, X levels of the other, or is there an attempt at a theurge build? Will the character be incurring the penalty deliberately for its existence, perhaps because cleric is there only to provide turn undead? Is this just a character level where higher level spells of one class were prioritized and warmage's progression on even class levels made that strange for a bit?

Also, I find the combination slightly interesting. Warmage knows its whole spell list and casts spontaneously based on charisma. Cleric has turn undead based on charsima... but also cleric class level. So, you're probably more likely to use something like the sacred healing feat than one of your cleric spells, but you could learn a little of prepared casting while you're enjoying the benefits of warmage.

[Doctor Awkward]

That's why in spite of all the extreme hate it's actually not a bad rule to balance out excessive multiclassing among other single classed players... except that after the rule was made prestige classes got way out of hand and the rule doesn't affect them. Originally, per the DMG, prestige classes were supposed to be by special permission only. So unless you get super restrictive on prestige classes it isn't fair to him if other players are prestiging willy nilly.

Almost none of this is accurate:

1). There is no singular metric with which one can balance "excessive" multiclassing with single-classed characters. Nale demonstrates this very early on in the comic when he announces that he is a rogue/sorcerer/fighter which is an incredibly roundabout way of accomplishing almost exactly what Elan accomplishes (which was the joke). What counts as "excessive" is entirely subjective, anyway.

2). D&D 3.5 was always intended to be a modular character design system wherein you build a character to meet a concept, rather than forcing your character to conform to his given abilities. The overabundance of front-loaded classes and dip-friendly mechanics (see Tome of Battle) isn't a bug. It's a feature.

3). Prestige classes "getting out of hand", much like "excessive multiclassing", is also entirely subjective. There is no correlation between an how overpowered character is to how many different classes it has taken (in many cases the opposite is true).

4). Multiclass EXP penalties as presented in the PHB are obnoxious and very poorly implemented. They do nothing to restrict nonsensical builds, while severely limiting normal ones. A wild elf barbarian 5/ranger 2 has an EXP penalty, despite the similar themes of the classes, and the natural, tribalistic focus of that race. Meanwhile, a dwarf Cleric 2/Monk 1/Wizard 1/Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Druid 2/Assassin 10 has no EXP penalty. How is this justified?

[Knaight]

2). D&D 3.5 was always intended to be a modular character design system wherein you build a character to meet a concept, rather than forcing your character to conform to his given abilities. The overabundance of front-loaded classes and dip-friendly mechanics (see Tome of Battle) isn't a bug. It's a feature.

This is questionable. To start with choosing to use classes at all is antithetical to modular design systems around building to concept - then there's the matter of some of the specifics. There's the DMG prestige classes that represent actual in-setting organization, there's the classes deliberately made to be hostile to multiclassing, there's alignment restrictions and similar that make it harder to get certain modules on certain characters, etc. Then there's the multiclass XP penalty. Class systems are also exceptionally good at providing detail for certain specific archetypes, and the way the specific classes are built again suggests them going for specific archetypes.

ToB came pretty late in the 3.x lifecycle. It's dip friendly mechanics are to some extent indicative of a change in design philosophy across that lifecycle, where the incredibly dip hostile nature of caster multiclassing and similar is indicative of where it started.

[KillingAScarab]

This is questionable. To start with choosing to use classes at all is antithetical to modular design systems around building to concept - then there's the matter of some of the specifics. There's the DMG prestige classes that represent actual in-setting organization, there's the classes deliberately made to be hostile to multiclassing, there's alignment restrictions and similar that make it harder to get certain modules on certain characters, etc. Then there's the multiclass XP penalty. Class systems are also exceptionally good at providing detail for certain specific archetypes, and the way the specific classes are built again suggests them going for specific archetypes.

ToB came pretty late in the 3.x lifecycle. It's dip friendly mechanics are to some extent indicative of a change in design philosophy across that lifecycle, where the incredibly dip hostile nature of caster multiclassing and similar is indicative of where it started.You can see some of that hostility to multiclassing even within the base classes. Once a monk, always a monk, but you can't advance any further until we say so (when you pick up feats released in the Complete series) if you try to blend it with other classes. There were some Forgotten Realms deities back in 3.0 which allowed for their paladins and monks to multiclass freely with specific other classes, such as Ilmater and Torm. The fact you needed a god's permission (who were originally portrayed with multiple classes at 20, before epic level rules) is indicative of the difference in early design.

[Doctor Awkward]

This is questionable. To start with choosing to use classes at all is antithetical to modular design systems around building to concept - then there's the matter of some of the specifics. There's the DMG prestige classes that represent actual in-setting organization, there's the classes deliberately made to be hostile to multiclassing, there's alignment restrictions and similar that make it harder to get certain modules on certain characters, etc. Then there's the multiclass XP penalty. Class systems are also exceptionally good at providing detail for certain specific archetypes, and the way the specific classes are built again suggests them going for specific archetypes.

ToB came pretty late in the 3.x lifecycle. It's dip friendly mechanics are to some extent indicative of a change in design philosophy across that lifecycle, where the incredibly dip hostile nature of caster multiclassing and similar is indicative of where it started.

This had less to do with game design and more to do with marketing. There are many features and mechanics found in the Core books that are clear holdovers from the previous edition and are still present solely to appeal to older players who aren't wont to pick up a new system. The removal of class restrictions on race in favor of an EXP penalty system is more than indicative of the designers' early intent, as does the decision to release the core mechanics of the game under the OGL, and allowing other publishers to create their own content without editorial oversight. Even in first party, both Hexblade and Swashbuckler get some of their best features right up front, and more than a couple of prestige classes in Complete Warrior mix martial base classes with spellcasting.

[Knaight]

This had less to do with game design and more to do with marketing. There are many features and mechanics found in the Core books that are clear holdovers from the previous edition and are still present solely to appeal to older players who aren't wont to pick up a new system. The removal of class restrictions on race in favor of an EXP penalty system is more than indicative of the designers' early intent, as does the decision to release the core mechanics of the game under the OGL, and allowing other publishers to create their own content without editorial oversight. Even in first party, both Hexblade and Swashbuckler get some of their best features right up front, and more than a couple of prestige classes in Complete Warrior mix martial base classes with spellcasting.

None of that had anything to do with marketing - that was all based on the mechanics as they were, not how they were presented. Marketing had to do with why those mechanics were chosen, but that's still what the mechanics were. As for the removal of class restrictions on race that's indicative of early intent of opening up how races play, not classes. The OGL has nothing to do with the extent to which classes were expected to be mixed, and CWar also had its fair share of prestige classes tied to organizations.

[ericgrau]

Almost none of this is accurate:

1). There is no singular metric with which one can balance "excessive" multiclassing with single-classed characters. Nale demonstrates this very early on in the comic when he announces that he is a rogue/sorcerer/fighter which is an incredibly roundabout way of accomplishing almost exactly what Elan accomplishes (which was the joke). What counts as "excessive" is entirely subjective, anyway.
Nale actually made him worse with multiclassing. The general assumption when balancing is that people are doing their best to exploit something. There isn't and shouldn't be bonuses for people who shoot themselves in the foot. Which is really the main problem with this particular player.

[flamewolf393]

If theres only two classes, why is there an XP penalty at all? One of the classes will be his favored class meaning it doesnt count towards multiclassing penalties.

Even if for some weird reason there is no favored class, as long as he keeps all the classes within 1 level of each other then again, no XP penalty.

[Aimeryan]

If theres only two classes, why is there an XP penalty at all? One of the classes will be his favored class meaning it doesnt count towards multiclassing penalties.

Even if for some weird reason there is no favored class, as long as he keeps all the classes within 1 level of each other then again, no XP penalty.

Why be so restrictive with race? Why be so restrictive with the build? Pigeonholing is not something to be proud of for its own sake - it is usually an attempt at balancing, however, the multiclass penalties in 3.5e fail in that regard absolutely. If it is doesn't serve the purpose it is there for and is otherwise undesirable, just get rid of it.

As an aside, I agree completely with Tonymitsu's four-point post.

[zergling.exe]

This is questionable. To start with choosing to use classes at all is antithetical to modular design systems around building to concept - then there's the matter of some of the specifics. There's the DMG prestige classes that represent actual in-setting organization, there's the classes deliberately made to be hostile to multiclassing, there's alignment restrictions and similar that make it harder to get certain modules on certain characters, etc. Then there's the multiclass XP penalty. Class systems are also exceptionally good at providing detail for certain specific archetypes, and the way the specific classes are built again suggests them going for specific archetypes.

ToB came pretty late in the 3.x lifecycle. It's dip friendly mechanics are to some extent indicative of a change in design philosophy across that lifecycle, where the incredibly dip hostile nature of caster multiclassing and similar is indicative of where it started.

I think it's funny then, that 4e went almost entirely the opposite direction with multiclassing on launch, and later somewhat reversed that. In the PHB you can only multiclass by taking feats , with there being only 4 for you to take (and they only let you replace some of your powers (maneuvers/spells)), and later the multiclass paragon path. You can only take 1 enabler feat, unless you are a bard (which didn't come until PHB2) who can take as many as they want. Then in PHB3 they introduced hybrid classes, which are basically weak gestalt (cuts out a lot of class features, takes half HP from both, and a bunch of other weakening stuff).

[ericgrau]

Why be so restrictive with race? Why be so restrictive with the build? Pigeonholing is not something to be proud of for its own sake - it is usually an attempt at balancing, however, the multiclass penalties in 3.5e fail in that regard absolutely. If it is doesn't serve the purpose it is there for and is otherwise undesirable, just get rid of it.

As an aside, I agree completely with Tonymitsu's four-point post.
It's somewhat like a soft ban on uneven/unfavored multiclassing. Really there shouldn't even be a penalty for 2 classes in the first place, but he made it happen. Which is the real problem. He's intentionally picking a suboptimal build. Even if you remove the multiclass xp penalty, he'll still be screwed much harder by however many levels he put in his 2nd casting class. Unless he only puts 1 level in his 2nd class, in which case he'll be screwed about equally by both things.

So the real issue is how can you convince him to not hurt himself and/or help him do something like what he wants without hurting himself. If you just get rid of the multiclass XP penalty you'll be solving less than 1/3rd of the problem and even most of that he did to himself. For that matter if he did all that, did he royally screw up his feats and spell selection too? Sit down and talk to him, find out why he did what he did, and then find out how to do what he wants without being so masochistic about it.

Since he's new he probably doesn't realize what he's doing and said "No, I don't want any special favors, I'll just play how I'm supposed to play." Having no idea what he's getting himself into. He doesn't realize what's going on. Talk to him not us. IMO either use my houserule for multiclassed casters or prep him for mystic theurge. MT only if your campaign will go well past level 11. Or get him to single class if neither of those sounds good. Then either get him to agree to no XP penalty for this game only, or switch his race, or get him to level the classes equally and/or allow warmage to count as sorcerer for favored class purposes. Then check over his spell and feat choices and help him out. Explain to him that not everything works well in 3.5, in fact most random combinations don't work well, and that he must to be careful to make choices that complement each other. It's just how the system works.

[Aimeryan]

I don't think multiclass penalties are at all an effective deterrent against someone making a weak (relative to play) build.

Multiclass penalties don't really do anything well. They are like the town drunk randomly going around slapping people - it doesn't solve anything and no one likes it.

[ericgrau]

Ok... regardless that's less than 30% of the problem. Probably 10%. It seems like losing 1/5th of your total progress which causes so much passion, but actually it's a fraction of 1 level until after several levels of blind dumbness it finally maxes out at 1 level. I get everyone hates multiclass xp penalties with the flames of all 9 layers of Hell and must focus all their energies on this hate. But it really doesn't fix anything even if we all agree to ditch them and get this player to finally accept it. The guy's a noob who needs build aid.

In case you haven't noticed 3.5 has far greater flaws. Like multiclassed casters. And spell selection, especially for new players. Especially on spontaneous casters and divine casters. The entire system is built around dumping a bunch of options in our laps and saying "Here, YOU sort out the good combos." Which is both 3.5's biggest weakness and biggest advantage. There are 10 times as many traps as actual good choices. The whole situation with this new player is a ticking time bomb of suck.

[DEMON]

Ok... regardless that's less than 30% of the problem. Probably 10%. It seems like losing 1/5th of your total progress which causes so much passion, but actually it's a fraction of 1 level until after several levels of blind dumbness it finally maxes out at 1 level. I get everyone hates multiclass xp penalties with the flames of all 9 layers of Hell and must focus all their energies on this hate. But it really doesn't fix anything even if we all agree to ditch them and get this player to finally accept it. The guy's a noob who needs build aid.

9 layers of Hell? More like the Infinite layers of the Abyss :smalltongue:

Though I would argue that, in this case, the XP penalties are on top of his poor build choices. Since if he's dipping one of the classes, he's hurting himself a bit and then getting an XP penalty as well. Unless he actually intends to stagger the classes, at least for a few levels, at which point he's likely totally boned.