Sorcerer Gish

[Quoz]

Looking to make a backup character for a low-mid level Gish based on SCAG melee cantrips and sorcerer metamagic. Bonus if I can work it onto a GWM template, though this would limit some of my options.

Stats are point buy. Races are somewhat restricted by setting, my current favorites are Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Halfling. The party already has too many humans for my taste, so I would only go there after TPK. No half elves in the setting.

I am open to some multiclassing, but unfortunately don't want to dip warlock. My GM and I agree that infernal pacts for your soul don't work for a small dip into the class. I know I will probably want at least 1 level in something with medium armor or shields.

Leaning toward dragon sorc at first look, the extra AC and HP at 1st and extra cantrip damage at 6 are great fits. I'm not that familiar with all the other subclasses though, so I may be missing an opportunity.

Not sure whether Dex or Str is the best way at this point. Str opens up GWM but needs armor, dex can go finesse and maybe even accuracy. Would probably want to get shields along the way.

[Vaz]

Pal 2 gives you Smites which you can cue off Quickened Hold Person for like 10d8 autocrit. Conquest Pal 3 adds Armour of Agathys to your repertoire for tanking.

For melee, every other class comes up short. Warlock adds additionaly utility with devil's sight, and mask of many faces, or 'read all writing', or the skill invocations. Warlock 3 gets you utility with 3 more cantrips and rituals galore. Hexblade is required for your Martial Prof

[trctelles]

Looking to make a backup character for a low-mid level Gish based on SCAG melee cantrips and sorcerer metamagic. Bonus if I can work it onto a GWM template, though this would limit some of my options.

Stats are point buy. Races are somewhat restricted by setting, my current favorites are Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Halfling. The party already has too many humans for my taste, so I would only go there after TPK. No half elves in the setting.

I am open to some multiclassing, but unfortunately don't want to dip warlock. My GM and I agree that infernal pacts for your soul don't work for a small dip into the class. I know I will probably want at least 1 level in something with medium armor or shields.

Leaning toward dragon sorc at first look, the extra AC and HP at 1st and extra cantrip damage at 6 are great fits. I'm not that familiar with all the other subclasses though, so I may be missing an opportunity.

Not sure whether Dex or Str is the best way at this point. Str opens up GWM but needs armor, dex can go finesse and maybe even accuracy. Would probably want to get shields along the way.

Well, if you want to GWM, you can't go Halfling, you'll need a Heavy weapon to use the -5/+10 damage, and small races can't use them.
The extra cantrip damage is OK at best, since the Sorcerer cantrips scale on number of dice, not number of hits. So, at lvl 5, firebolt would do 2d10+5 (With 20 CHA), where a lvl 5 warlock would do 2d10+10 with eldritch blast + agonizing blast (just for comparison).

You can do some class combos that work well with Warlock, without it looking like "Oh, I sold my soul for a dip". You can do Divine Soul Sorcerer + Celestial Pact Warlock, they work really nice, since you can be serving the same entity. Same goes for Shadow Magic Sorcerer + Hexblade, the idea is the same.

[LeonBH]

Looking to make a backup character for a low-mid level Gish based on SCAG melee cantrips and sorcerer metamagic. Bonus if I can work it onto a GWM template, though this would limit some of my options.

Off the bat, you will need to play non-small races and take level 1 in a class with martial weapon proficiency. This would slow down your caster progression and spell slot progression.

However, you can somewhat gish without multiclassing if you take the Weapon Master feat, while still having access to heavy weapons. You may want to homebrew it with your DM to buff Weapon Master up, so that it isn't pretty much useless.


I am open to some multiclassing, but unfortunately don't want to dip warlock. My GM and I agree that infernal pacts for your soul don't work for a small dip into the class. I know I will probably want at least 1 level in something with medium armor or shields.

Hexblade would have been the perfect dip due to Pact of the Blade + Hex Warrior synergy allowing any melee weapon to be used with Charisma. Hexblade comes from making a deal with a maker of magic, sentient weapons, and not an infernal patron. Other than this, you could start as a Fighter or Paladin. You could also pick up weapons at level 4 from Weapon Master, as said above.


Leaning toward dragon sorc at first look, the extra AC and HP at 1st and extra cantrip damage at 6 are great fits. I'm not that familiar with all the other subclasses though, so I may be missing an opportunity.

Not sure whether Dex or Str is the best way at this point. Str opens up GWM but needs armor, dex can go finesse and maybe even accuracy. Would probably want to get shields along the way.

I am most partial to the Favored Soul from Unearthed Arcana (the 2nd version, the one with Supernatural Resilience) as I think that was the best iteration of the concept out of all of the versions we have so far. They don't get always-on Mage Armor like Draconic, but they get the same +1 to HP, they also get Aid (which helps with the low hit die further), and they get Mage Armor, which is better than all mundane light armor.

I enjoy Strength Sorcerer builds the most as it's not a typical build. The DM usually doesn't expect your Sorcerer to be proficient in grappling monsters and killing them up close. You can grapple + Quickened Booming Blade a monster, which is effective for keeping them still. If they attack you, Mage Armor + Shield grants you, effectively, a +8 to AC, not yet counting your Dex. Mirror Image grants you another effective +5 to AC (or thereabouts).

If you take a 1 level Lock dip or Magic Initiate: Warlock, you can take Hex and be *very* good at grappling, Hexing your target first and giving them disadvantage to their Strength or Dex checks (whichever is higher). If you happen to choose Wild Magic Sorcerer (the best melee Sorcerer, IMO, due to the threat of Wild Surges), you can roll Athletics with advantage and force their contesting roll with disadvantage.

You could also use a Quickened Booming Blade, and then shove them 5ft back. If they want to retaliate against you, they must move willingly and take the Booming Blade thunder damage.

You can go Dex Sorcerer as well, but you would be more tempted to use your spells instead of your melee abilities. Sorcerers aren't very good at Dex builds except for the higher AC, which can be offset by good stats (assuming rolled stats) and spells anyway. The dagger is your only usable finesse weapon, so you're highly restricted. TWF is not optimal for you because you need your bonus action for Quicken Spell.

[Throne12]

Looking to make a backup character for a low-mid level Gish based on SCAG melee cantrips and sorcerer metamagic. Bonus if I can work it onto a GWM template, though this would limit some of my options.

Stats are point buy. Races are somewhat restricted by setting, my current favorites are Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Halfling. The party already has too many humans for my taste, so I would only go there after TPK. No half elves in the setting.

I am open to some multiclassing, but unfortunately don't want to dip warlock. My GM and I agree that infernal pacts for your soul don't work for a small dip into the class. I know I will probably want at least 1 level in something with medium armor or shields.

Leaning toward dragon sorc at first look, the extra AC and HP at 1st and extra cantrip damage at 6 are great fits. I'm not that familiar with all the other subclasses though, so I may be missing an opportunity.

Not sure whether Dex or Str is the best way at this point. Str opens up GWM but needs armor, dex can go finesse and maybe even accuracy. Would probably want to get shields along the way.

If there are human and elfs why is there not any half elfs?

[Vaz]

If there are human and elfs why is there not any half elfs?

No interbreeding, re Dragon Age?

[Athoren]

you could go eldarin wild mage rogue and take the elven accuracy to get double advantage and sneak attack.

[Lombra]

I like pal2/dragon sorcerer x, unarmored, shield, rapier. Be a dragonborn paladin of bahamut?

[Thevenin]

I've been working on a similar sorcerer spellsword. If you're willing to let go of the greatsword, you can take Draconic origin, build DEX (both Halfling and Eladrin help here), and take Shadow Blade (XGTE) at level 3.

At level 7, using Shadow Blade upcast to 5th level with Flexible Casting, quickened Greenflame Blade, and Elemental Affinity, you deal (4d8+DEX+1d8+CHA) damage on hit, twice per round. Given 18 DEX, 16 CHA, enemy AC of 13, and accounting for crits, this yields 40.6 DPR (56.2 w/adv.). Plus splash damage.

At level 13, you get up to (5d8+DEX+2d8+CHA)*2. Given 20 DEX, 18 CHA, enemy AC of 17, etc, that's 47.7 DPR (70.7 w/adv.). Plus splash.

For reference, a Devotion Paladin with Bless, Sacred Weapon, Divine Smite passive, GWM, PAM, and magic weapons against the same enemies deals 38.1 DPR (51.0 w/adv.) at level 7 and 50.0 DPR (67.0 w/adv.) at lvl 13. A Battlemaster Fighter with GWM+PAM deals in the neighborhood of 23.6 (38.1 w/adv) at lvl 7, and 36.9 (59.5 w/adv) at lvl 13.

Notes:
-- The SB + GFB engine takes remarkably little investment.
-- 18 AC and 106 HP at lvl 13. Bracers of Defense can replace a shield for 20 AC. You can also use the Shield spell.
-- Pray that your DM doesn't give you a bazillion encounters per day.
-- You have 55% accuracy at lvl 13 (vs 17 AC). At 100%, you'd be dealing 86.7 DPR.
-- I haven't playtested this. My Eldritch Knight tank keeps getting turned into a bloody pulp, so right now I'm questioning the practicality of melee damage dealers.

[LeonBH]

I've been working on a similar sorcerer spellsword. If you're willing to let go of the greatsword, you can take Draconic origin, build DEX (both Halfling and Eladrin help here), and take Shadow Blade (XGTE) at level 3.

At level 7, using Shadow Blade upcast to 5th level with Flexible Casting, quickened Greenflame Blade, and Elemental Affinity, you deal (4d8+DEX+1d8+CHA) damage on hit, twice per round. Given 18 DEX, 16 CHA, enemy AC of 13, and accounting for crits, this yields 40.6 DPR (56.2 w/adv.). Plus splash damage.

At level 13, you get up to (5d8+DEX+2d8+CHA)*2. Given 20 DEX, 18 CHA, enemy AC of 17, etc, that's 47.7 DPR (70.7 w/adv.). Plus splash.

For reference, a Devotion Paladin with Bless, Sacred Weapon, Divine Smite passive, GWM, PAM, and magic weapons against the same enemies deals 38.1 DPR (51.0 w/adv.) at level 7 and 50.0 DPR (67.0 w/adv.) at lvl 13. A Battlemaster Fighter with GWM+PAM deals in the neighborhood of 23.6 (38.1 w/adv) at lvl 7, and 36.9 (59.5 w/adv) at lvl 13.

Notes:
-- The SB + GFB engine takes remarkably little investment.
-- 18 AC and 106 HP at lvl 13. Bracers of Defense can replace a shield for 20 AC. You can also use the Shield spell.
-- Pray that your DM doesn't give you a bazillion encounters per day.
-- You have 55% accuracy at lvl 13 (vs 17 AC). At 100%, you'd be dealing 86.7 DPR.
-- I haven't playtested this. My Eldritch Knight tank keeps getting turned into a bloody pulp, so right now I'm questioning the practicality of melee damage dealers.

This is pretty good. Hadn't considered this just because my Archfey Bladelock can't use his Thirsting Blade with his Shadow Blade.

You don't need to upcast every combat or Quicken every round. Combine with Blink or Mirror Image for better damage mitigation. If you know you're only going to have that one encounter today though, upcast to your heart's content. :smallsmile:

[Chugger]

A lot to go through but worth it. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

[Quoz]

I forgot about shadow blade when I was putting this together. That really is the perfect fit for what I was going for and removes some of the need for multiclassing. AC and HP are both a little low for my preference of a melee character and will need to boost Con saves, but overall that looks much more workable than I first thought. Trivantage shadow blade probably tops GWM for consistency and would be close enough on damage. Might still splash fighter, a trivantage elf fighter (champion) 3 / sorcerer X w/ shadow blade and twin/quicken GFB sounds like a blast to play.

[Chugger]

You need to make a con save _every time_ you're hit with Shadow Blade to keep it - something to keep in mind. Losing it even 20% of the time would become a serious nuisance, given 5e's action economy. And you're only going pal 2 - which is okay - but you won't get the ST boosting aura.

(edit also make sure you have a back-up when fighting things that resist or are invuln. to SB's damage type!)

[Azreal]

If UA is allowed then the Stone Sorcerer allows for a Str Sorc build pretty easily. It also gives proficency with shields and martial weapons.

[Thevenin]

Trivantage shadow blade probably tops GWM for consistency and would be close enough on damage.

A greatsword with GWM and GWF deals 18.33+STR damage on hit, at around 40% accuracy. A maxed SB deals 22.5+STR/DEX damage on hit, at around 65% accuracy.
Depending on how you multiclass, a Sorcadin will deal roughly 40-55% more DPR with a SB than with GWM.
SB's strength is damage. Its weakness is that it costs spell slots and requires concentration.


will need to boost Con saves,

You need to make a con save _every time_ you're hit with Shadow Blade to keep it - something to keep in mind. Losing it even 20% of the time would become a serious nuisance, given 5e's action economy.

If you take X hits during a fight, and have Y chance to lose concentration, your cumulative chance to lose concentration at least once during the fight is (1-(1-Y)^X).
Given 16 CON and CON save proficiency, hits of <22 damage being DC10, chances of losing concentration are as follows:

Lvl 4-8: 15% per hit. 10 hit fight: 80.3%
Lvl 13: 5% per hit. 10 hit fight: 40.1%
Lvl 8, Warcaster: 6.25% per hit. 10 hit fight: 47.6%
Lvl 13, Warcaster: 0.25% per hit. 10 hit fight: 2.47%

So, at early levels or if you plan on skipping Warcaster, you'll need to plan for what happens when you lose concentration. My advice? Recast SB. Unlike other gish spells like Blur and Haste, it only costs a bonus action to cast, leaving your action to attack, disengage, or make pithy insults. Losing the spell slot hurts, but it doesn't mess with your action economy that much.

[Zman]

I've run a Sorcerer Gish, it is a blast. I went Fighter 1, then Dragon Sorcerer 5, Fighter 2. From here you can just go sorcerer + or grab Fighter 3 for Eldritch Knight like I did to open up more spells and i tstill ups your effective caster level for spell slots. You wont' be a full caster, but you're a solid self buffing gish that can dish spells and put up a good fight in melee.

I essentially ran around smacking everything with Booming Blade, twinning it when acceptable, and when I got quickened Haste, especially after getting Action Surge I rolled around smacking everything with booming blade often twinned, using the haste action to disengage and just walked away. If you are willing to burn resources you can really put the hurt out. You could do it with GWM, especially if you get it with Variant Human right out of the gate.

Before I got haste I used quickened blurr to great affect, acted like a defensive AC tank and moderate striker.

[Talionis]

You might think of Tempest Cleric or War Cleric. Cure Wounds or Healing word are nice to add. But they give Heavy Armor, Shield and martial weapons without losing casting progression.

[Malifice]

Looking to make a backup character for a low-mid level Gish based on SCAG melee cantrips and sorcerer metamagic. Bonus if I can work it onto a GWM template, though this would limit some of my options.

Stats are point buy. Races are somewhat restricted by setting, my current favorites are Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Halfling. The party already has too many humans for my taste, so I would only go there after TPK. No half elves in the setting.

I am open to some multiclassing, but unfortunately don't want to dip warlock. My GM and I agree that infernal pacts for your soul don't work for a small dip into the class. I know I will probably want at least 1 level in something with medium armor or shields.

Leaning toward dragon sorc at first look, the extra AC and HP at 1st and extra cantrip damage at 6 are great fits. I'm not that familiar with all the other subclasses though, so I may be missing an opportunity.

Not sure whether Dex or Str is the best way at this point. Str opens up GWM but needs armor, dex can go finesse and maybe even accuracy. Would probably want to get shields along the way.

Dragonborn Paladin [whatever oath you like] 6, Sorcerer [draconinc] 14. Patron Bahamut or the equivalent.

If you want GWM right off the bat, go Human, same level split, but take Favored soul Sorcerer. Pick a god of magic like Mystra or the equivalent.

Id go Paladin at 1st for heavy armor. Then off to Sorcerer for 1 level for the cantrips [shield spell, greenflame blade, rest as desired]. Then back to Paladin for divine smite. Then pick a class and take that class through to 6th, taking Resilent [con] at 4th level as my feat.