Should Dex Affect Speed?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Is it just me or should things like dex affect speed? I think that if a character has a low dex they get a penalty to speed where as if you have a high dex your speed increases. For example a character has a base speed of 30 but their dex is 6. I think they should have their speed dropped to either 20 or 25. Where as if a character has a speed of 25 they get an increase of speed to 35 of 40. Does this seem like something that should happen or am I just crazy?

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it just me or should things like dex affect speed? I think that if a character has a low dex they get a penalty to speed where as if you have a high dex your speed increases. For example a character has a base speed of 30 but their dex is 6. I think they should have their speed dropped to either 20 or 25. Where as if a character has a speed of 25 they get an increase of speed to 35 of 40. Does this seem like something that should happen or am I just crazy?

No. Speed varies with race and class. KISS principle. Dex is already loaded with features ...

[LeonBH]

It makes thematic sense, and I don't see how it would break the game. That said, it would mean it's easier to kite (hit and run without the follower ever catching you). It penalizes low-Dex Barbarians and makes Wood Elven Monks super fast.

[CBAnaesthesia]

One million percent no. Dex is already probably the strongest stat and it affecting "quickness" is already reflected in Initiative. If anything Str should bump up your speed because that's what Athletics is based on (but actually it shouldn't, movement speed is fine as implemented already).

[dejarnjc]

Height and strength make more sense for speed. I can tell you that gymnasts will not be the fastest people at this year's olympics.

[hymer]

Height and strength make more sense for speed. I can tell you that gymnasts will not be the fastest people at this year's olympics.

Because the gymnasts compete in the summer olympics? :smallwink:
You're right though. Strength is a better indicator of being faster. That said, a low dex could be a good indicator of being slower.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

One million percent no. Dex is already probably the strongest stat and it affecting "quickness" is already reflected in Initiative. If anything Str should bump up your speed because that's what Athletics is based on (but actually it shouldn't, movement speed is fine as implemented already).

I guess your right but I still think that some connection between Ability Scores and speed should exist. I mean wis shows how much you notice and dex impacts your reflexis. I just think that speed should not be totally based off of race.

[CBAnaesthesia]

I guess your right but I still think that some connection between Ability Scores and speed should exist. I mean wis shows how much you notice and dex impacts your reflexis. I just think that speed should not be totally based off of race.
If you use encumbrance rules, speed is effectively affected by Strength, I guess.

[mephnick]

Take a look at 100m sprinters. That ain't Dex, man. Those guys are built.

[Isaire]

Yes it should. But only if you roll everywhere. (looking at you Witcher 2 Geralt...)

[nickl_2000]

No it shouldn't at least not on it's own.

If you take D&D to real life terms, speed is a combination of Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution.

If you aren't fleet of foot and at least somewhat dexteritious you will trip and fall over as your feet move. Also, you can't traverse over uneven ground
If you aren't strong you don't have the raw leg muscle power needed to move more quickly over the ground
If you don't have a high constitution then you don't have the staying power to run more than 30 seconds at a time.

It's to much to figure it all together and frankly it should be left alone (at least in my opinion).

[Vogie]

I like the idea... maybe base speed based on Race, Constitution, and Athletics.

If Dexterity was to do anything it may increase only Dash Speed.

[Citan]

I guess your right but I still think that some connection between Ability Scores and speed should exist. I mean wis shows how much you notice and dex impacts your reflexis. I just think that speed should not be totally based off of race.
Try this maybe?
speed = 20 feet + combined mods of STR, DEX and CON, and only while not carrying more than 1/3 of your carrying capacity.
STR? Because muscles are required to go fast.
DEX? Because balance and agility are required to make the best move whatever ground you are on while limited your fatigue.
CON? Because you need a good body (blood circulation and pumping notably) to keep it up a decent time.

OR: speed = DEX score+STR score.
Dash = speed + CON score.

Beware though, this is bringing quite some bookkeeping in a game edition that tried to get rid of it. ;)

[GlenSmash!]

If a character is trying to sprint very fast, I might call for a Strength (Athletics) check. if a character is trying to run a long distance a Constitution (posibly Athletics) check. Otherwise I'd use the movement rules.

I don't think I would call for a Dexterity check as running has very little to do with Manual Dexterity like slight of hand does or physical Agility that acrobatic tumbling does.

[KorvinStarmast]

If a character is trying to sprint very fast, I might call for a Strength (Athletics) check. if a character is trying to run a long distance a Constitution (posibly Athletics) check. Otherwise I'd use the movement rules.

I don't think I would call for a Dexterity check as running has very little to do with Manual Dexterity like slight of hand does or physical Agility that acrobatic tumbling does. What Glen said ... and I do note that Athletics / Strength covers long jumping and high jumping as well.

[Tanarii]

It already does. So do Strength and Constitution.

If you can do something related to agility, reflexes or balance to modify your speed, the DM calls for a Dex ability check, possibly modified by a skill proficiency, often Acrobatics. Examples: Avoiding tripping over something, swinging on a chandelier, not slipping on ice.

If you can do something related to bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force to modify your speed, the DM calls for a Str ability check, possibly modified by a skill proficiency, often Athletics. Examples: Swimming upstream, Climbing a 5.10c climb, leaping something quite tall parkour style, jumping a chasm just beyond your normal jump distance and catching with your fingertips.

If you can do something related to health, stamina, and vital force to modify your speed, the DM calls for a Con ability check, possibly modified by a skill proficiency if she's using variant skill checks, often Athletics. Examples: Con checks to avoid exhaustion from Dashing in a chase, Swimming or Running very long distances without collapsing.

[SociopathFriend]

Remember that lowering speed by 5 or upgrading it by 5 is basically the difference between rendering Melee practically invalid in combat and making them a threat.

[trctelles]

DEX already give too much as is... One of the best saves, AC, damage, ranged is already a problem in the game... Make a melee PC or monster not able to reach the Archer/Ranged ever is problematic at best.

[Tiadoppler]

IMO, DEX should not increase speed, given that DEX:

> Reflects reaction time, flexibility and precision, not raw muscle.
> Is already over powered.

STR could modify movement speed, and I kind of like that, because STR can seem underpowered. It would require extra math, though, and it's probably not worth the paperwork.



How about:
Base humanoid speed = 20' + Strength Score + racial modifier of +/-5 for some species


Strength 7-9 = Speed 27'-29' (or 5 squares). If you dump Strength, you're going to be walking around 3 miles an hour, and running around 6 miles an hour.

Strength 10-14 = Speed 30'-34' (6 squares). Average or slightly above average Strength means walking at 3.5 mph and running at 7 mph.

Strength 15-19 = Speed 35'-39' (7 squares). Great strength: 4mph/8mph (while wearing armor/backpack/carrying weapons)

Strength 20 = Speed 40' (8 squares). Walk at 4.5mph, run at 9mph in full plate.




In combat on a grid, you use the rounded-down "squares" speed. For long distance travel, you use the feet/mph number. This would let Dwarven Fighters be natural sprinters who are very dangerous across short distances, and it'd also mean that a feeble elf wouldn't be faster than fit human.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

IMO, DEX should not increase speed, given that DEX:

> Reflects reaction time, flexibility and precision, not raw muscle.
> Is already over powered.

STR could modify movement speed, and I kind of like that, because STR can seem underpowered. It would require extra math, though, and it's probably not worth the paperwork.



How about:
Base humanoid speed = 20' + Strength Score + racial modifier of +/-5 for some species


Strength 7-9 = Speed 27'-29' (or 5 squares). If you dump Strength, you're going to be walking around 3 miles an hour, and running around 6 miles an hour.

Strength 10-14 = Speed 30'-34' (6 squares). Average or slightly above average Strength means walking at 3.5 mph and running at 7 mph.

Strength 15-19 = Speed 35'-39' (7 squares). Great strength: 4mph/8mph (while wearing armor/backpack/carrying weapons)

Strength 20 = Speed 40' (8 squares). Walk at 4.5mph, run at 9mph in full plate.




In combat on a grid, you use the rounded-down "squares" speed. For long distance travel, you use the feet/mph number. This would let Dwarven Fighters be natural sprinters who are very dangerous across short distances, and it'd also mean that a feeble elf wouldn't be faster than fit human.

I like this I might try this out with my tabaxi monk.

[Mith]

Class boosts like Barbarian and Monk would be treated like Racials I assume?

[Easy_Lee]

In real life, strength and coordination are closely related. It's actually hard to gain so much muscle that the muscle doesn't make you faster. For adventurers, these should either be a single stat or Dexterity should be replaced with a kind of proficiency. Coordination is more muscle memory and practice than anything else.

[Tiadoppler]

Class boosts like Barbarian and Monk would be treated like Racials I assume?

I think the class boosts should be unaffected. They just add on the top of whatever the speed is.

Monks would be the one class where it's okay to dump STR and still be fast. It's their Ki thing.

Barbarians, wearing little armor, should be fast and terrifying to be chased by. A 20+ Str Elven Barbarian moving at 11 squares per turn is still maxing out at 12.5 mph. That's fast, but not amazingly so by the standards of real people.

[Tanarii]

IIt's actually hard to gain so much muscle that the muscle doesn't make you faster.
I don't know about running, but it's pretty easy to gain so much muscle that it's harder to Climb. People that regularly lift heavy amounts of weights are often quite poor climbers.

Edit: As far as running goes, I see seriously bulked up guys blow past me all the time. But that could just be that I'm not in great running shape, and they are. :smallwink:

[Lombra]

You need a little bit of every stat to do anything. Only the really significant ones are used to display actions though; you can't hit your target if you can't lift the sword, maneouver it through it's defenses, understand when to strike, having proper technique... four stats to attack, but it's rounded down to strength because it's the most significative stat. The speed on the ground has nothing to do with agility beyond keeping balance, which is a negligeable factor when compared to the force that you need to apply to propel yourself forward.

[Tiadoppler]

I don't know about running, but it's pretty easy to gain so much muscle that it's harder to Climb. People that regularly lift heavy amounts of weights are often quite poor climbers.

Yep. The term "musclebound" refers to a real phenomenon. Strength training (especially using machines, but even free weights to some extent) can reduce flexibility. Flexibility training is a different type of exercise (and fine precision is another thing altogether).

[Easy_Lee]

I don't know about running, but it's pretty easy to gain so much muscle that it's harder to Climb. People that regularly lift heavy amounts of weights are often quite poor climbers.

Climbing is another thing. Humans are built for running but not climbing. I don't think people's muscles adapt very well to the movement which would explain why diminishing returns set in so quickly.

[Tanarii]

Yep. The term "musclebound" refers to a real phenomenon. Strength training (especially using machines, but even free weights to some extent) can reduce flexibility. Flexibility training is a different type of exercise (and fine precision is another thing altogether).For climbing, it's body weight to grip & shoulder strength that really matters. Plus with modern climbing shoes, body weight to the shoe's grip. So while being musclebound isn't as bad as trying to climb while fat, it's not optimal either.


Climbing is another thing. Humans are built for running but not climbing. I don't think people's muscles adapt very well to the movement which would explain why diminishing returns set in so quickly.I disagree on built for running but not climbing. We're an in-between kinda place in regards to both. But people that work the upper body often work the lower quite heavily too, so I can totally see the negative returns from extra weight vs the positive from extra strength gained being different for both.

[Easy_Lee]

One other thing to note; D&D humans can climb (ladders, vines, etc.) at half of their movement speed. That means if they run a hundred-meter dash in twelve seconds, they can climb a hundred-meter rope in twenty-four. That's like jogging straight up. We aren't dealing with average human warriors. Either that or gravity is far lower.

[Tiadoppler]

gravity is far lower.

Terminal velocity is 500' per round, or less than 60 mph. Either gravity is low, or air pressure is very high. See also: Winged humanoids are able to fly and hover under their own power.

[Easy_Lee]

Terminal velocity is 500' per round, or less than 60 mph. Either gravity is low, or air pressure is very high. See also: Winged humanoids are able to fly and hover under their own power.

Either could put a cap on ground speed as well, so that works.

[Joe the Rat]

I'd use the higher of strength or dexterity against your size attribute. Big is more damage, big and strong is more damage and can move.

Sorry, that's Chaosium. Carry on.

[Anonymouswizard]

Terminal velocity is 500' per round, or less than 60 mph. Either gravity is low, or air pressure is very high. See also: Winged humanoids are able to fly and hover under their own power.

In other news D&D is massively oversimplified. Which isn't a bad thing, before anybody tries to bring that up, but it means you'll have to sometimes decide between rules and realism.


In terms of Dexterity being linked to speed (and/or athletics), I'm generally against it for one reason. In real life I've got low dexterity (and drop things all the time), and yet I walk about as fast as your average person, and my running speed doesn't vary that much from other people who don't train, and can even be relatively high despite being morbidly obese.

I'm more comfortable linking Strength to speed, and would happily link both.

My next character is going to be high speed simply because I've chosen a Barbarian, and I'm torn between potentially taking the Mobile feat for another speed boost or just pumping my Strength and Constitution to the maximum. Weirdly linking speed to any physical stat would just be overkill in this situation, I have a 14 or higher in anything, and care about them enough that if they affected my Speed I wouldn't even bother taking feats if they gave free spells.

[BlueFountain]

Strength does and doesn't have a lot to do with speed.

Jet Li and Bruce Lee are (were) both incredibly fast. Bruce Lee to the point he was too fast for the cameras of the time, and Jet Li many times people think they speed up some of his actions via camera effects to make him appear faster when they don't. While both are fit with good muscle tone (Bruce Lee esp was), they are by no means huge. Put them against say Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime and they'd look small as hell. But I'd put my money on Jet or Bruce in terms of a speed contest any day. It's also a noted that martial arts tends to push speed far more than strength.

Likewise go look at Olympians. Usain Bolt is the fastest man alive and certainty is fit with good muscles - especially leg muscles - but step him next to say Om Yun Chol and again he'd look small. I doubt Usain would be able to lift even close to what Om can, but would leave Om in the dust in a race.

Also look between short distance sprinters and long distance runners. Longer distance runners are generally going to be less cut with smaller muscles than the sprinters. If we're talking about movement speed are we really talking about speed in general, or their ability to keep going?

TLDR:

Strengh is a small bit.
Dex... probably helps a bit?
Con would probably be a much larger factor.

[Asmotherion]

Height and strength make more sense for speed. I can tell you that gymnasts will not be the fastest people at this year's olympics.
If there was a variant rule, Str would also make more sense, since as rules are now, people who don't need medioum/heavy armour already have enough reasons to completely dump Str over Dex. Keying one more thing to it won't do anything good to the game.

On the other hand, I would rather see a mechanic on how effectivelly you can use the Dash Action, based on your Athletics Check (seems more balanced) rather than an improved basic speed. Perhaps using it with a DC 10 on a move action to cover 5 feet more than your base speed, and that being cumulative and multiplicative with the Dash action? It does not take away the awesomness of the Rogue or Monk abilities (or the mobile feat), just gives a bit more mobility to someone who invests in being an Str based runner. That is, if someone wants to go that path.


Strength does and doesn't have a lot to do with speed.

Jet Li and Bruce Lee are (were) both incredibly fast. Bruce Lee to the point he was too fast for the cameras of the time, and Jet Li many times people think they speed up some of his actions via camera effects to make him appear faster when they don't. While both are fit with good muscle tone (Bruce Lee esp was), they are by no means huge. Put them against say Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime and they'd look small as hell. But I'd put my money on Jet or Bruce in terms of a speed contest any day. It's also a noted that martial arts tends to push speed far more than strength.

Likewise go look at Olympians. Usain Bolt is the fastest man alive and certainty is fit with good muscles - especially leg muscles - but step him next to say Om Yun Chol and again he'd look small. I doubt Usain would be able to lift even close to what Om can, but would leave Om in the dust in a race.

Also look between short distance sprinters and long distance runners. Longer distance runners are generally going to be less cut with smaller muscles than the sprinters. If we're talking about movement speed are we really talking about speed in general, or their ability to keep going?

TLDR:

Strengh is a small bit.
Dex... probably helps a bit?
Con would probably be a much larger factor.

What you describe, is basically covered in the 5e rules under "Monk Abilities". On the other hand, athletes like Usaine Bolt's speed is based both on their Muscle Mass and effective use of it; Both Str and Dex are used for it, but since Dex is already accounted for a lot of things in 5e, it is more balanced for the system to simplify it to "just str", if we were to even think of a variant rule like that.

[Tanarii]

It occurs to me, we're really talking about long distance speed in straight line with no encumbrance while doing nothing but running.

Combat speeds that allow you to change/reverse direction instantly, start or stop, and take actions in the middle of it ... are maybe 6-7mph. That's a combat hussle. There's no particular reason any stat should modify it.

Now if we are talking about wanting to exceed that speed without a class-based movement bonus (or bonus action Dash), that'd be time for some Strength (Athletics) or Constitution (Athletics) ability score checks.

Such as stripping down to your skivvies and seeing if you can clear three 8 minute miles, which is speed 33, including Dash actions continuously for 24 minutes. Something a fit human that runs regularly can do, basically someone that trains for it. Probably mostly Constitution (Athletics) IMO.

Or sprinting without any regard for safety down a street, with no gear or armor on. Most people could manage 10-12mph for a minute if they needed to. That one would be more Strength (Athletics) IMO.

[Tiadoppler]

It occurs to me, we're really talking about long distance speed in straight line with no encumbrance while doing nothing but running.

Combat speeds that allow you to change/reverse direction instantly, start or stop, and take actions in the middle of it ... are maybe 6-7mph. That's a combat hussle. There's no particular reason any stat should modify it.

Now if we are talking about wanting to exceed that speed without a class-based movement bonus (or bonus action Dash), that'd be time for some Strength (Athletics) or Constitution (Athletics) ability score checks.

Such as stripping down to your skivvies and seeing if you can clear three 8 minute miles, which is speed 33, including Dash actions continuously for 24 minutes. Something a fit human that runs regularly can do, basically someone that trains for it. Probably mostly Constitution (Athletics) IMO.

Or sprinting without any regard for safety down a street, with no gear or armor on. Most people could manage 10-12mph for a minute if they needed to. That one would be more Strength (Athletics) IMO.

^This. I agree with this.



In addition to the "Dash Action", I use a "Sprint Action" houserule that lets a character quadruple (4x) their speed (I also call the "Dash Action" jogging, because whatever that is, it ain't a dash :P).

The person who uses the Sprint Action has disadvantage on Saving Throws and Attacks, cannot cast Spells, and grants Advantage to incoming melee attacks until the end of their next turn. A PC can Sprint for a minute, then they need to start making Athletics checks to keep going. I use Strength(Athletics) for short duration sprinting, and Constitution(Athletics) for long jogs (at slower speed).

This lets somebody with speed 30' move at up to 13.6mph for a short time (as long as they aren't encumbered). That might be a bit over-generous, but *shrug* they're heroes after all.

[Talamare]

Likewise go look at Olympians. Usain Bolt is the fastest man alive and certainty is fit with good muscles - especially leg muscles - but step him next to say Om Yun Chol and again he'd look small. I doubt Usain would be able to lift even close to what Om can, but would leave Om in the dust in a race.

Om Yun is 5 foot tall and weighs 120 pounds
Usain is 6 foot 5 inches and weighs over 200 pounds

Usain would look absolutely massive compared to Om Yun

[Yagyujubei]

no, dexterity has nothing to do with speed really as far as running is concerned, its about reflexes and balance. And i guess having great balance would make you a little faster when running but the difference wouldnt be that much i dont think