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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Oath Of Firmament



JNAProductions
2018-02-09, 01:28 PM
Be Strong, Be Solid. A Paladin of Firmament is to be a rock to those they are allied and friends with. Whether they anchor a line on the battlefield, or act as a solid bastion of emotional support, one who follows this oath must be steely and stoic.

Honor To Those Who Deserve It. A Paladin of Firmament's word is binding, and they will never resort to deceit... To those who are worthy of honor. Once someone has shown they are not worthy of that blessing, those who follow this oath have no binds to them. However, that privilege must be lost-they cannot simply assume that someone is not honorable, it must be proven to them.

Change Slowly, But Surely. A Paladin of Firmament should follow their traditions and resist change. Change is not to be avoided, but simply made slowly. But, one who follows this oath should always look for ways to change to better themselves, and enact them steadily.

Dependable. A Paladin of Firmament is to be reliable and dependable.

Oath Spells-You gain the following spells at the paladin levels listed.



3rd
Shield, Thunderwave


5th
Hold Person, Enlarge/Reduce


9th
Slow, Meld Into Stone


13th
Stone Shape, Stoneskin


17th
Hold Monster, Wall Of Stone




Channel Divinity-When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options.

Entombment-You reach out and encase a foe in solid stone. Select a target you can reach with your hand-they must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell DC or become petrified. They may repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns to shake off the tomb and escape the condition.

Turn The Flighted-As an action, you present your holy symbol, and each actively flying creature within 30' of you that can hear you must make a Wisdom saving throw against your spell DC. On a failed save, they are turned for one minute or until they take damage.

Aura Of Solidity-At 7th level, you and all allies within 10' may add half your proficiency modifier (rounded up) to AC.

At 18th level, this aura's range increases to 30'.

Unmoving, Unyielding-At 15th level, you gain 15 additional HP, as well as gaining one extra hit point for each subsequent level you take in this class. In addition, you have advantage on any saves to avoid forced movement or falling prone, and as a bonus action, may take a Solid Stance until the start of your next turn. While in a Solid Stance, you automatically succeed on any saves made to resist forced movement or falling prone, and are immune to forced movement from creatures that does not involve a save. You may still be affected by gravity and similar effects, though not magical gravity. (For instance, if someone cast Disintegrate on the rock you were standing on, you would fall to the ground. However, if someone cast Reverse Gravity on your area, you would stay on the ground until you failed to take a bonus action to assume a Solid Stance.)

Avatar Of Strength-At 20th level, you can channel the raw power of the world in a display of utmost strength. As an action, you begin channeling this power, which lasts for one minute, and may only be used once per long rest. While channeling, you gain the following benefits:

-Your Strength increases by 10 (to a max of 30).
-You reduce all damage taken by your proficiency modifier.

Requilac
2018-02-10, 03:52 PM
Entombment-You reach out and encase a foe in solid stone. Select a target you can reach with your hand-they must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell DC or become restrained. They may repeat the saving throw at the end of each of their turns to shake off the tomb and escape the condition.

Compared to the others, this is a really weak use of channel divinity. If you wanted to make this more balanced, why don't you change the condition to petrified? That seems fair for a single target attack that you can only use so many times, especially since a petrified target gains resistance to all damage.




Aura Of Solidity-At 7th level, you and all allies within 10' may add half your proficiency modifier (rounded up) to AC.

At 18th level, this aura's range increases to 30'.

This is way, way too overpowered. AC is not something you should mess with so easily. With bounded accuracy this can make certain allies extremely difficult to hit. I would highly recommend that you change it to a flat +1 to AC or scrap the feature entirely, because it is something very much to be worried about.



Avatar Of Strength-At 20th level, you can channel the raw power of the world in a display of utmost strength. As an action, you begin channeling this power, which lasts for one minute. While channeling, you gain the following benefits:

-Your Strength increases by 10 (to a max of 30).
-You reduce all damage taken by your proficiency modifier.
-You may make a single attack as a bonus action.

Strength score increased by 10? That is a +5 bonus to attack and damage rolls, which is something that is to be worried about. 15 extra damage per turn is not that major, but it is the +5 bonus to hit that concerns me. I would advise that you specify that this feature does not increases your attack bonus. And the fact that it reduces every hit against you by 6 makes it especially worrying, and can majorly put a dent when being attack in a group. I would advise you make it so that this feature only works against damage greater than X to balance it out.

Your class is over-all fine in concept, but the way it messes with AC and attack bonuses makes it especially worrying in a system with bounded accuracy. That can be fixed with a couple of changes in quantities and numbers though.

It seems mechanically promising, but I think it struggles mechanically? How does this class have anything to do with firmament? There is nothing that indicates anything regarding heavenly power or the sky, so I am kind of confused as to what you were going for. Perhaps you should remain it the oath of fortitude or something so it is less misleading or modify the features massively.

JNAProductions
2018-02-10, 04:11 PM
It's almost identical to the Ancient's CD, except the range is shorter. But, there's only the option for Strength save, making it more powerful.

The aura is, at the level you get it, a +2 to AC. At level 13, it becomes +3. That's the equivalent of a powerful magic item, true, but if you look at the actual attack numbers of most enemies, it's not a huge deal. It DOES potentially help someone who's already invested heavily into AC (the AC 21 Full Plate and Shield with Defensive Fighting Style Fighter, for instance, goes from being hit on 18 by a guard to a 20, which cuts damage to a third) but it's a relatively minor boost to those who have NOT invested into AC (a Wizard with Mage Armor and 16 Dex, for instance, goes from being hit on 13 to 16. Cuts damage by about 40%, against a CR 1/8th guard. Against, say, a CR 11 Djinn, who has +9 to-hit, it goes from 7 to 10, or damage being cut by 20%.) I won't argue that it's powerful, because it is. But so is every other aura.

I could be convinced to drop it to less than +10, but I don't see how an extra +5 to hit and damage breaks anything when you only get it for one minute per long rest. Re-reading the feature, though, I realize I forgot to specify that it's only once per long rest, so I should go fix that right now.

demonslayerelf
2018-02-10, 04:46 PM
Honestly, this Oath isn't that bad. The +5 to hit and damage at 20th level SEEMS like a lot, but then you realize Devotion Pallys get that as a Channel Divinity. At 3rd level(Though, that's Charisma-dependent, so its ever so slightly worse). How's that for screwing bounded accuracy? More or less Expertise with weapon attacks for 1 minute, when your attack bonus isn't "Guaranteed hit unless you're fighting a god."

Same with -6 to damage. It's gonna help against goblins, but at 20th level, everything is hitting much harder, and it's basically nothing. Anything with Intelligence 1 will see "Huh, this guy that's glowing with energy is taking less damage than other people. Let's hit the other one, instead."

So, no real issues there.

+3 to AC also seems like a no-no, but it's really barely anything. If you're fighting Guards who can't stand up to 1st level characters, at 7th level(When the radius is only 10 feet- Have fun getting all of your allies in that one), then that's not a mechanical issue, that's a "You need a new DM" issue.
Compare that to an aura with the same radius which gives resistance to all spell damage(Oath of Ancients). This is nothing.

No real issues there.

Petrification for Entombment is more fitting, if only to take this ability out of Oath of Ancient's shadow.

Turn the Flighted is stupid. It's just stupid. Unless you're worshiping the god of walking, there's no reason to turn flying things. It also doesn't stop them from flying, so even that's a moot point.

The oath spells are meh. This seems more like the oath of "Make nothing happen" than... Well, Firmament. Rename it to the Path of STOP, PALLY TIME!


Honestly, the real problem is that this Oath is just kinda boring. You make sure nothing happens. Sure, it means nothing(Well, less) hurts you and your allies, but what's the paladin actually doing? Holding up a hand to make a wall.

JNAProductions
2018-02-10, 04:48 PM
Clearly I misunderstand what Firmament means. I was under the impression it was the ground-the body of the earth, stone and dirt.

And I suppose I'll change the Entombment to petrified. It does make sense.

Requilac
2018-02-10, 05:21 PM
The aura is, at the level you get it, a +2 to AC. At level 13, it becomes +3. That's the equivalent of a powerful magic item, true, but if you look at the actual attack numbers of most enemies, it's not a huge deal. It DOES potentially help someone who's already invested heavily into AC (the AC 21 Full Plate and Shield with Defensive Fighting Style Fighter, for instance, goes from being hit on 18 by a guard to a 20, which cuts damage to a third) but it's a relatively minor boost to those who have NOT invested into AC (a Wizard with Mage Armor and 16 Dex, for instance, goes from being hit on 13 to 16. Cuts damage by about 40%, against a CR 1/8th guard. Against, say, a CR 11 Djinn, who has +9 to-hit, it goes from 7 to 10, or damage being cut by 20%.) I won't argue that it's powerful, because it is. But so is every other aura.

The other auras are powerful for sure, but not that powerful. Immunity to being charmed, resistance to spell damage, taking damage for others, and granting a bonus to attack for fiends and undead do not compare to a +3 bonus to AC. I can guarantee to you that doing that is very abuseable. I would highly recommend that you at least decrease to a flat +1. Imagine how this would work out if they were wielding a shield and full plate. 23 AC, and any ally within 10 ft with the same equipment load-out can get the same thing. That is at least twice as powerful as being immune to the charmed condition or resistance to spell damage. I urge to re-consider your choices.



I could be convinced to drop it to less than +10, but I don't see how an extra +5 to hit and damage breaks anything when you only get it for one minute per long rest. Re-reading the feature, though, I realize I forgot to specify that it's only once per long rest, so I should go fix that right now.

A level 20 character with 30 strength gets a +16 to hit, not barring any other factors. While not broken, it is weird. Unless you are fighting some god level titan you have up to an 85% chance to hit. Being able to instantly hit like that is rather strange. That would be incredibly strange.

JNAProductions
2018-02-10, 05:33 PM
I'd say it's less situational than other auras (AC is VERY commonly targeted) but not as powerful directly. Against foes of similar CR, you're looking at only a small decrease (maybe 20-40 percent) in damage taken, assuming they rely on basic attack rolls. It's more powerful against hordes of weaker foes, and less powerful against singular powerful foes, and it also works better the more the OTHER character has invested in AC. I don't see it being broken, though. I'm sure it CAN be broken, but considering you get this Oath at level 3, I doubt the DM would've handed out any +X Armors or Shields yet, and a wise DM would know to not do so, since the stacking could get a little much. Since Magic Items are solely under the purview of the DM, though, I (again) don't think it's broken.

And yes, you get +16 to hit. That means that, against someone in Plate Mail or Chain Mail and a Shield, you only miss on a 1. I don't see what's broken about that. For an EXTREME example, let's look at Big T. He has AC 25, so normally you hit on a 14 (35% of the time). With this buff, you hit on a 9 (60% of the time) for +5 damage over your regular blows. So, you go from 2*(2d8+5)*.35 to 3*(3d8+10)*.6, or 9.8 to 42.3. A considerable increase, but that's LITERALLY the highest printed AC. Against the CR standard, which is 19, you hit on an 8 (65%) to a 3 (90%), for damage numbers of 18.2 to 63.45. A significant damage increase, to the point where I think I'll remove the third bullet point (the bonus action attack) but I don't see the once a day buff being that bad.

Requilac
2018-02-10, 07:03 PM
I'd say it's less situational than other auras (AC is VERY commonly targeted) but not as powerful directly. Against foes of similar CR, you're looking at only a small decrease (maybe 20-40 percent) in damage taken, assuming they rely on basic attack rolls. It's more powerful against hordes of weaker foes, and less powerful against singular powerful foes, and it also works better the more the OTHER character has invested in AC. I don't see it being broken, though. I'm sure it CAN be broken, but considering you get this Oath at level 3, I doubt the DM would've handed out any +X Armors or Shields yet, and a wise DM would know to not do so, since the stacking could get a little much. Since Magic Items are solely under the purview of the DM, though, I (again) don't think it's broken.

I am not worried about +X armors, I am worried about the pally having an army of allied tanks all standing next to the paladin and using the added +3 to AC to absolutely meat grind things. Some parties have a lot of martials in them or people that can do well in direct combat, and with the addition of this feature they can majorly capitalize on this up to an insane amount. There is a reason so few features grant bonuses to AC. Unless you are level 20 than without the aid of magic you probably should not have anywhere over 21 AC, and you are easily letting people bypass this. When was the last time you saw a class feature aside from unarmored defense that increases AC? You are walking on ice some paper thin ice with the balance of this feature. It can easily be abused, and when it is given at such a low level, it is a source for concern. Is there nothing else that would make sense which is more stable?



And yes, you get +16 to hit. That means that, against someone in Plate Mail or Chain Mail and a Shield, you only miss on a 1. I don't see what's broken about that. For an EXTREME example, let's look at Big T. He has AC 25, so normally you hit on a 14 (35% of the time). With this buff, you hit on a 9 (60% of the time) for +5 damage over your regular blows. So, you go from 2*(2d8+5)*.35 to 3*(3d8+10)*.6, or 9.8 to 42.3. A considerable increase, but that's LITERALLY the highest printed AC. Against the CR standard, which is 19, you hit on an 8 (65%) to a 3 (90%), for damage numbers of 18.2 to 63.45. A significant damage increase, to the point where I think I'll remove the third bullet point (the bonus action attack) but I don't see the once a day buff being that bad.

I am not saying that the +5 to hit is extremely overpowered, I am saying that it is quite weird. You shouldn’t be hitting the tarrasque more than half the time, which is why it was given 25 AC. You should not be able to hit a creature with plate armor 95% of the time, that is why it has plate armor. I do not think anything else in the game gets an attack bonus as high as the one you have presented. The ability to have such a high chance to hit is an aberration towards the whole rest of the system is typically, and not something you want to go with unless it is central to the class or else it could end up being very unbalanced. A PC should not be constantly able to hit things like that unless its target has very low AC, that is the way the game’s design was built around in 5e. It is not overpowered per say, but it does breach an underlying assumption of the game and could very well prove to be broken when combined with other features that rely on that aspect (Especially smites).