Player doesn't want to take ANY metamagics. Halp!

[Arkhios]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

Just to be clear:


No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

[JakOfAllTirades]

At some point the guy's just gonna have to figure how his class works and play the friggin' game.

I'd suggest the DM throws an enemy Sorcerer or two at the group and demonstrate the proper use of metamagic, in living color, just for him.

And make it hurt.

[Arkhios]

At some point the guy's just gonna have to figure how his class works and play the friggin' game.

I'd suggest the DM throws an enemy Sorcerer or two at the group and demonstrate the proper use of metamagic, in living color, just for him.

And make it hurt.

FWIW, the player is a she. And more of a casual player at that. Her defense has been that we play too infrequently that she can't remember everything her character can do. All she really wanted from her character was to be able to spam magic missiles all day everyday and keep it simple otherwise. Our DM suggested sorcerer and at the time it felt the best solution. Now, I'm not so sure. I've begun to wonder if wizard (evoker or transmuter) would've actually been even more simple.

Plus I don't think putting pressure on purpose is going to do any good on this issue. At worst, she'll just quit the game. And we don't want that.

[hymer]

As far as I can tell, there isn't a problem yet. It's when the player starts complaining that the character is underperforming you get a problem. Unless this is gimping the PC so badly, the DM has to account for it?

So my suggestion is Mother Mary's words of wisdom: Let it be.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You might have been better off suggesting warlock. They can spam magic lasers all day for real, and there are plenty of invocations that are wholly passive so she wouldn't have to remember them. Is it to late to rebuild the character?

[Arkhios]

You might have been better off suggesting warlock. They can spam magic lasers all day for real, and there are plenty of invocations that are wholly passive so she wouldn't have to remember them. Is it to late to rebuild the character?

Warlock was suggested, but since a Warlock doesn't get Magic Missile, it was turned down.

And it's too late to rebuild.

Plus, the DM is a stickler for following RAW and refuses to house rule Magic Missile as a warlock spell.

[LeonBH]

The player doesnt have to use the metamagics, even if she chose them. If she's completely expending her Sorcery Points for more magic missiles, that's still the class working as designed. No need to change anything here.

[Unoriginal]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

Just shrug, and let the player waste her character's class features.



Her defense has been that we play too infrequently that she can't remember everything her character can do. All she really wanted from her character was to be able to spam magic missiles all day everyday and keep it simple otherwise. at.

If that Sorcerer's main thing is just to spam magic missile, they're not concerned with being efficient already. Just let the player play, if you want to play with her.

At worse, just tell her to choose the metamagics at random and to never use them.

Or have the DM convince her to write down the few metamagics she's allowed to have on her sheet, and she can ignore them.

[Arkhios]

Just shrug, and let the player waste her character's class features.




If that Sorcerer's main thing is just to spam magic missile, they're not concerned with being efficient already. Just let the player play, if you want to play with her.

At worse, just tell her to choose the metamagics at random and to never use them.

Or have the DM convince her to write down the few metamagics she's allowed to have on her sheet, and she can ignore them.

Well, to be fair, we have managed to convince her to take and use a few other spells (e.g. Thunderwave and Lightning Bolt) as well, though she's reluctant to choose any more spells every time we level up, and it feels contrived to choose even one spell more. Her words were somewhat like this: "I'd prefer to just get more magic missiles".

I must say, 3.5 Sorcerer might have been right up her alley. Very limited amount of spells known, and a crap load of spell slots to spam Magic Missiles all day. And absolutely no other class features beyond 1st level.

[ImproperJustice]

She is a new player. She sounds like she may have a casual level of investment in the game.
It sounds like she likes being able to spam magic missiles.

What is the end goal?
Force her to use abilities outside of her comfort zone and punish her if she fails to do so until she “sees the light” and becomes a true gamer?

Or do you modify the rules and work with her like a fellow adult to make the role-playing experience enjoyable so that she can gain a love of the hobby and be patient so as time goes by she will eventually branch into other things?

My advice?
Back in 3.5 there was a little pdf that was like $1 on drive through that called #1 with a bullet point and they had “7 feats for magic missile”.

Let her take one of those as a meta magic and modify it to work with magic missile. Get her a couple wands of magic missile. Let her become the greatest magic missiler of all time, and for Heaven’s sake let her have fun.

Trust me. Our game group has grown over the years by working with “young players” to grow into the hobby by letting them play their character concepts as they see fit. And ultimately what is role playing if not the culmination of wish fulfillment through collective story telling?

[JackPhoenix]

Distant spell allows her to shoot Magic Missile further
Empower spell allows her to make her Magic Missile stronger (and given how MM damage works, it allows for a sorcerer with dumped Cha).
Quickened spell allows her to cast Magic Missile and do something else, cantrip or anything else that would use her action
Subtle spell allows her to cast Magic Missile even in the area of Silence, while being tied up, or in other detrimental circumstances.

[Unoriginal]

She is a new player. She sounds like she may have a casual level of investment in the game.
It sounds like she likes being able to spam magic missiles.

What is the end goal?
Force her to use abilities outside of her comfort zone and punish her if she fails to do so until she “sees the light” and becomes a true gamer?

Or do you modify the rules and work with her like a fellow adult to make the role-playing experience enjoyable so that she can gain a love of the hobby and be patient so as time goes by she will eventually branch into other things?

My advice?
Back in 3.5 there was a little pdf that was like $1 on drive through that called #1 with a bullet point and they had “7 feats for magic missile”.

Let her take one of those as a meta magic and modify it to work with magic missile. Get her a couple wands of magic missile. Let her become the greatest magic missiler of all time, and for Heaven’s sake let her have fun.

Trust me. Our game group has grown over the years by working with “young players” to grow into the hobby by letting them play their character concepts as they see fit. And ultimately what is role playing if not the culmination of wish fulfillment through collective story telling?

Or they could just let her do what she's doing right now, just with metamagics she's not going to use written on her sheet.

If she doesn't want to invest more time or decisions into the game, it's fine, but it shouldn't be up to others to invest the time and decisions for her.

If she was a new player who was confused about the game's rules, or not sure what to do with her PC, it'd be different.


OP, did anyone point out to her that Distant Spell and Empowered Spell can make her Magic Missiles better?

[Specter]

Find something neat and permanent that applies to all spells and give it to her, like a fighting style. You can even create a few options and let him choose. Examples:

- The save DC for your damage spells increases by 1
- Anyone dispelling or counterspelling your spells hss didadvantage on the roll
- Every 1 rolled on spell damage dice becomes a 2

Etc.

[Lombra]

Why do you care? Let she play how she wants to play? Spamming Magic Missile is not optimal but it's consistent, if she hs fun being an arcane machine-gun, let her be. At best you may talk her in picking quicken for MORE MAGIC MISSILES but it's not really the end of the world, she's gonna save the party vs those displacer beasts.

[Naanomi]

If you ever get to high levels, it will be a big shame not to have Spell Mastery for this concept

[MrStabby]

Is she having fun? Could she have more fun? If you were to enable her to have more fun would it detract from the rest of the party?

Does she use out of combat spells? If in the more relaxed out of combat atmosphere is she happy to step away from magic missiles?

If she is happy and if improvements won't make her happier, then do nothing. If improvements might make her happier then homebrew something - even something as simple as a force version of elemental affininty or the warlock repelling blast feature applied could work.

If the PC is only using spell slots for magic missiles then there is actually very little downside to multiclassing to another caster. If she won't use the new spells learned then she can pick the features she wants. Warlock might work well if only to generate masses of magic missile fuel on a short rest.

[Throne12]

Just let her be. Would you like it if some was try and try to get to play or something you don't want to. If you want her to stay with the group. Let her play what she wants and learn when to make a suggestion and when to keep your opinions to yourself.

If she is turning her sp into spell slots then she has no sp to use in meta magic to began with.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It sounds like she wants something like the 3.5 Warlock, where she has one schtick (Magic Missile!) all day long. It would be easy enough to build a custom class around that*, but since you said the DM is a RAW-stickler, that's probably not an option... I'd say suggest Quicken Spell (shoot more missiles at once!), Empower Spell (shoot stronger missiles!), with Distant Spell (sniper missiles!) and Subtle Spell (invisible missiles) as later picks. Explain the effects in terms of Magic Missile.

*Start a little weaker than the base spell, since it's at-will, then scale up automatically, and throw in some Repelling Blast-like rider effects you can apply-- add knockback, elemental effects, that sort of thing. Maybe have them be limited use, so you can up their power a bit.

[LeonBH]

The best I can think of for her is to grant her a Wand of Magic Missiles. Let her have her fun with it (and if she dies, let it happen, too). It's all part of the game.

[X3r4ph]

Funny that your DM is a stickler for rules but you suggest home brewing to find a solution. :)

Anyways. I see a couple of home brew solutions.

1. Remove metamagic. Add an extra sorcery point every second level.

2. Remove metamagic and sorcery points and give her one extra spell slot per level.

3. Remove metamagic and sorcery points and let her cast magic missile at will. Spell level equal to highest spell slot known. Because capping at 9d4+9 every round is pretty terrible damage anyways.

[BW022]

I don't see a problem here. If the player doesn't want to select or use meta-magic ... why try and force it? Just let them play without it.

Lots of players don't bother with certain abilities -- whether because they don't care about optimizing, it doesn't fit their roleplaying/character concept, they just aren't that good of players, abilities slow down combat, etc. There is no real harm in doing so. I've seen players select far more 'unoptimal' things on their characters -- disabilities, inability to cast spells, vows to never start a fight, etc.

IMO, its more of an issue in you trying to force players to play they way you want. That leads to resentment between players. This is doubly true with new players who you should never allow other players to influence their character choices unless the player specifically asks. There is no reason you should care about a minor choice such as this. It really won't significantly affect what the character/player can contribute to the party. Using sorcerer points solely for extra spell slots is perfectly fine.

Just let the player play their character the way they wish. If they don't wish to select or use meta-magic... fine. I wouldn't try to give them anything in place of meta-magic nor would I change the rules to automatically give them more spell slots. Let them use the current rules and let them use the sorcerer point system to lose and/or gain spell slots.

[LordEntrails]

Like others have tried to imply, the only problem at the table is you. You and any other players that want to make her min/max.

Let it go and have fun.

[Eloel]

Keep throwing level-appropriate encounters - don't go soft because they're ineffective, the world is rarely so thoughtful. Maybe throw an encounter where there are as many (appropriate-level) enemies as players, each singling out one PC. Let her see how useless her character is compared to everyone else. Let her feel the need to pull her weight, because if she goes down or escapes, someone will have 2 on them! If her character dies in the process, well, too bad. If she doesn't, no real need to change anything.

[JackPhoenix]

It sounds like she wants something like the 3.5 Warlock, where she has one schtick (Magic Missile!) all day long. It would be easy enough to build a custom class around that*, but since you said the DM is a RAW-stickler, that's probably not an option... I'd say suggest Quicken Spell (shoot more missiles at once!), Empower Spell (shoot stronger missiles!), with Distant Spell (sniper missiles!) and Subtle Spell (invisible missiles) as later picks. Explain the effects in terms of Magic Missile.

*Start a little weaker than the base spell, since it's at-will, then scale up automatically, and throw in some Repelling Blast-like rider effects you can apply-- add knockback, elemental effects, that sort of thing. Maybe have them be limited use, so you can up their power a bit.

Subtle makes casting undetectable, not the missiles themselves. And Quicken wouldn't allow more missiles at once, as you can't cast leveled spell with action if you cast anything with BA.

As for custom class... I think turning Magic Missile into cantrip (1 missile only, gets more as with normal cantrip scaling) could work if you make it work with EB-improving invocations. Lower damage is compensated with no chance to miss. Maaaybe even bump damage die from 1d4 to 1d6, but that may be a bit much.... 1d4+1 gets the same average as 1d6, 1d6+1 would be like 1d8 cantrip with autohit... not much on its own, but if you put warlock invocations and metamagic on top...

And I now know what I'll suggest for one of my players who can't roll over 10 when it matters.

[rbstr]

Yup. There's no problem here at all. Let her do nothing but cast magic missile if she wants. You don't need to do any accommodating or forcing or changing anything at all. She's using her sorcery points it's not like shes completely wasting her resources, even if the concept is non-"optimal".

I guess I'd suggest that she take empower so her magic missiles can hurt (a liiiiiiitttttle bit) more and distant so she can shoot them super far.
But honestly just casting more magic missile could be better than either of those options anyway.

[LVOD]

I agree with everyone: just let her be. She wont enjoy being forced to do something she doesn’t want to, and you’ll annoy yourselves trying to make her.

That said, i totally get it. This type of player in ANY game always infuriates me for some reason. I may be reading between the lines a bit, but it sounds like she’s too lazy to actually play the game. Magic missle is a lazy spell. Auto hit, roll for damage, no modifiers. If she wont even choose new spells and metamagics at each level, and complains that there’s too much to remember, its because she’s a lazy player. Its like playing smash bros with people who only grapple.

She’s never really going to enjoy herself, but thats not something you should worry about. Its sad, but just let her be. Enjoy yourself and let her be the spectator she basically is.

[ImproperJustice]

Or they could just let her do what she's doing right now, just with metamagics she's not going to use written on her sheet.

If she doesn't want to invest more time or decisions into the game, it's fine, but it shouldn't be up to others to invest the time and decisions for her.

If she was a new player who was confused about the game's rules, or not sure what to do with her PC, it'd be different.


OP, did anyone point out to her that Distant Spell and Empowered Spell can make her Magic Missiles better?

Some people are more willing to be helpful than others I guess?
I don’t mind doing a little work to help another player glean more enjoyment for their PC.
Especially if it will help then become a regular party of the hobby. New players make the hobby better for everyone.

It also sounds like she is aware of what meta magic does, but she would rather spend her points on loading magic missile slots.
Since she is really sold on the idea, why not even come up with a few unique meta magics?

Although I think she would still rather just magic missile things.
I may need to tray and run a Magic Missile battery myself in a one shot. It could be fun.

[Vorpalchicken]

I think subtle spell would be fun. Who just cast those magic missiles?? Who ever could it be?

As for those suggesting quicken, it won't allow more missiles, just a cantrip which she likely will refuse to cast.

[Unoriginal]

Some people are more willing to be helpful than others I guess?
I don’t mind doing a little work to help another player glean more enjoyment for their PC.

It's not a question of "some people [being] more willing to be helpful than others". If the player wanted help, I would try to provide it.

She does not want help, from what OP has said. She doesn't need help, either. She has the character she wants, and that's just it.


Especially if it will help then become a regular party of the hobby. New players make the hobby better for everyone.

Far more often than not, modifying the game so that a person will be more willing to play works as long as the modification is applied, from what I've experienced. Because they don't like the game, only the modified version that fit their tastes.




It also sounds like she is aware of what meta magic does, but she would rather spend her points on loading magic missile slots.

And there is nothing about this that requires a change, ultimately.



Since she is really sold on the idea, why not even come up with a few unique meta magics?

Because even if making the game fun for the players (DM included) is important, even the most important thing about RPGs, neither the game nor the lore nor the DM have to bend to accommodate everything.

Some players would enjoy having tons of magic items. If it doesn't suit the world/game/DM, it's up to the DM to tell them so.

Other players want super extra powers that let them turn into dragons or mind control a cult or the like. If it doesn't suit the world/game/DM, it's up to the DM to tell them so.

The player OP talked about does not want that. She just wants her Sorcerer to cast Magic Missile, and that's it. But OP's DM isn't keen at changing the rules from the book.

Ergo, the situation is not a problem. Just let the player do what she wants, and let the DM arbiters for PCs who are built following the books.

[clash]

I would suggest just picking subtle or empowered spell and getting rid of the sorcery points and just letting them apply to every magic missle cast

[MaxWilson]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

What's the problem? I'd let him not choose any, while letting him retain the right to change his mind at some future point and choose some. I've done that for skills and languages plenty of times. Depending on the tone of the game, and the experience of the player, I've even let a player choose their skills and languages during play.

"Okay, we're out of time for character generation, let's go ahead and start the game. You know one extra language besides Common--if a situation comes up during play where you want to know a language that is being spoken by dwarves or orcs or something, let me know and write it down on your character sheet, and that will be the language you know."

I'm not sure if I'd do the same thing for metamagics, or require metamagics to be chosen between game sessions, but I can at least conceive or treating metamagics the same way. It would depend.

[Sigreid]

I think your only real option is to let her play her character the way she is and if she eventually starts feeling like investing more in the character and game then she can pick then.

I can kind of understand her attitude. Magic missile is basically the one spell that always hits, cant be resisted and has only 3 counters - shield, immunity to force damage and immunity to spells the level of the slot it was cast out of. With magic missile you almost never have completely wasted your action, even if it's not always optimal.

[Strangways]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

It's a bit silly of her, considering that metamagic is a core mechanic of the sorcerer class. But she's not breaking any rules, just playing her character sub-optimally. I don't see that as a problem providing it's not becoming a serious drag on the party. Maybe someday she'll get Empowered Spell once she realizes it can make her magic missiles hit harder.

[Davrix]

Ok so she just wants to spam Magic missiles. Trying to change or persuade her isn't going to help her or make her have fun with the game. This is where I think 4th ed did something right with the essentials classes. Very simple and straightforward for new players and they didn't change much over time while letting the player still be of use to the party without feeling a detriment.

Simply put just homebrew up rules to augment Magic missiles or use the eldritch blast math and call that magic missiles. Simply have the DM say she finds a scroll called empowered magic missiles. She wont know your slowly turning her into a blast lock and the damage output wont be as terrible. You can even award some of the warlock invocations to help augment the spell after the fact. Players like this are easy to make happy. You can homebrew some pretty powerful stuff and feel safe in knowing they wont really abuse it like your typical player because to them they are just happy to use this one spell all day long. And when you give her a taste of power, maybe just say you know if you quicken the spell you could get two magic missiles per round of combat.

[Armored Walrus]

Sounds to me like she would be happier playing a different game system - one that's less mechanically focused and more story focused. What she's doing is akin to playing Monopoly but not buying any properties. Sure, you can do it, but you're not really playing Monopoly at that point, and you might be happier playing Sorry, or Candy Land.

Of course, if she's happy, and the party has enough other resources to compensate for her lessened contribution, then there's not really a mechanical problem with just letting her continue to do her thing.

I do agree though this would make me grind my teeth at my table. This is the kind of thing you let your kids do when they're just starting to learn the game, but to watch an adult do it would be... frustrating.

[bc56]

Honestly, metamorphosis is overrated compared to converting SP to slots on the fly, but let's not go there.

If she's never going to use metamagic, it's not a problem if she doesn't have metamagic. Plain and simple, there's no need to force her to choose something she won't use anyway.

[Beelzebubba]

Yeah, let her play the game. If she's having fun as a spellcasting version of the Champion, let her.

But, here's what I'd do: choose her two metamagics that make the most sense, and write them out in terms of magic missiles:

i.e.

Quick Magic Missile
Spend 2 points and you cast Magic Missile (oops and a cantrip) this round

Stealth Magic Missile
Spend 1 point to cast Magic Missile without moving or making a sound

:smallbiggrin:

[Vorpalchicken]

When you cast a spell with a bonus action, if you cast a second spell, it has to be a cantrip.

So magic missiles twice in one round is not an option. Unless you go into homebrew territory.

If home brewing, then you could just as well design a whole new class that specializes in magic missile. Why fiddle with sorcery points?

[DarkKnightJin]

For some reason, I'm envisioning this player as getting the Spell Mastery boon somewhere down the line, and literally be able to spam Magic Missile all day, every day.

That actually sounds kinda fun, to be honest..

[Dudewithknives]

I find it more odd that someone who wanted to specialize in magic missile would pick sorcerer.

Want to cast more magic missile just cast a bigger level spell.


Wizard can do the same thing, gets arcane recovery, and could do better with schools than a no metamagic sorcerer.


Show her Lore Wizard, that is a magic missile machine.

[History_buff]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

I recommend using the shield spell. She will learn and adapt or not.

[Malifice]

The player doesnt have to use the metamagics, even if she chose them. If she's completely expending her Sorcery Points for more magic missiles, that's still the class working as designed. No need to change anything here.

Yeah. This.

Id also point her to empower spell, and remark on its benefits for magic missile. And then quicken advising her it lets her use her action for something else that turn.

[Hrugner]

I second both the recommendation she reroll wizard for infinite magic missiles, and having the party face sorcerers who use their full ability spread. If neither of those things are interesting, I think the person probably isn't all that interested in the game to begin with. Just a hunch.

[Ganymede]

You're not going to start failing adventures because spells ain't getting widened or extended. Just let her do her thing.

[opticalshadow]

Let her do what she wants. she isnt playing wrong just not optimally, non optimal builds can be fun, and can be interesting. one day she will either realize the limitations of her choice, or she wont, or even if she does wont care. you can try havign an enemy sorc to showcase what can be done, but honestly i see no reason to punish or force her to comply.

[MeeposFire]

Honestly she is not doing anything wrong here. She really likes a low spell and is using her class features to get more of them which is a legitimate though perhaps weak use of them. No reason to force her to use metamagics if she does not want them though I second the idea of reminding her that certain ones like quicken and empower could help her do magic missiles better.

My only thought is that she is probably playing the wrong class to get the most out of magic missile sadly which is that she could be paying an evocation wizard and eventually getting unlimited magic missiles which are buffed up with int damage. Still if she is happy as is then I would mostly leave her alone if she is happy playing as is. Eventually she may want to spread her wings a bit and try some other stuff but right now this fits her comfort zone and you should respect that.

This would be like complaining about a player playing a champion fighter and they were using a short sword in a sword and shield build. Yes they could get more out of using a longsword or rapier but they are happy using a short sword and do not want to change even if they know it would deal more damage. While not maximized in any way it certainly does what it is supposed to and so IMO is not worth going after to change them so long as they are happy.

[Knaight]

This has been pretty well covered, but essentially - the decision she makes won't matter. It's essentially character sheet decoration that will never be used, and even if it does get used it's not like procrastinating that decision actually helps long run (there's no way to exploit it). Chillax.

[Beelzebubba]

I recommend using the shield spell. She will learn and adapt or not.

**** move from the old school.

Some people don't have fun the way you do. Why go out of your way to force them to change?

[Unoriginal]

**** move from the old school.

Some people don't have fun the way you do. Why go out of your way to force them to change?

Just to say, while tailoring opponents specifically to counter PCs to "teach them a lesson" is not a good way to do things (as you're being antagonistic), it'd be rather ridiculous if OP's group never encounter a caster with the Shield spell just because it would counter the Magic Missile PC. I mean, people aren't going to stop learning an useful spell, that many caster involved in fights would consider worthwhile, because one person decided they wanted to specialize on something that can be countered by said spell.

Of course, if the opponents have enough knowledge of the PCs and smarts to create strategies and have subbordinates that can beat the PCs, the "tailoring" has justifiable in-story reasons (ex: a warlord who had the PCs spied on and hired assassins specifically to beat them). If Poison Pete is known to use poison, you can expect his nemesis to use antidotes or other anti-poison measures once they've realized the pattern.

[Asmotherion]

He has to decide on his metamagics. They are a final choice once you level up. Using it or not is up to the player, but the DM has to be informed of what they are.

Enhance his gameplay by providing him more backstory for his character; Give him a mentor NPC, a Rival or someone to allow him some spotlight, and make him earn this spotlight by doing something other than casting "magic missiles". If he ends up not using metamagic, it's up to the player, and he may explain it in game as a fear of the instability of this power, or ignorance of being able to do so. And it's fine.

If he enjoyes his character that way, you have no need to force them to use those mechanics; That said, as a DM, you have no obligation to take into accound the fact they don't use them either, when balancing encounters, thus this may create tougher encounters for the rest of the group because of it.

[Beelzebubba]

Just to say, while tailoring opponents specifically to counter PCs to "teach them a lesson" is not a good way to do things (as you're being antagonistic), it'd be rather ridiculous if OP's group never encounter a caster with the Shield spell just because it would counter the Magic Missile PC. I mean, people aren't going to stop learning an useful spell, that many caster involved in fights would consider worthwhile, because one person decided they wanted to specialize on something that can be countered by said spell.

Of course, if the opponents have enough knowledge of the PCs and smarts to create strategies and have subbordinates that can beat the PCs, the "tailoring" has justifiable in-story reasons (ex: a warlord who had the PCs spied on and hired assassins specifically to beat them). If Poison Pete is known to use poison, you can expect his nemesis to use antidotes or other anti-poison measures once they've realized the pattern.

Sure, that's reasonable, not 'teach them a lesson'.

[Suttle]

Changer her class to Warlock? This way she can spam all day.

[SilverCacaobean]

Keep throwing level-appropriate encounters - don't go soft because they're ineffective, the world is rarely so thoughtful. Maybe throw an encounter where there are as many (appropriate-level) enemies as players, each singling out one PC. Let her see how useless her character is compared to everyone else. Let her feel the need to pull her weight, because if she goes down or escapes, someone will have 2 on them! If her character dies in the process, well, too bad. If she doesn't, no real need to change anything.

The world isn't thoughtful enough to throw level-appropriate encounters either. That's a bad excuse to do that. Passive aggressive. If you have a problem with how she's playing OP, just tell her, don't do this. Otherwise, offer to build a magic missile specialist character for her if she doesn't care about this kind of thing but you do. Or you could just play the game and accept in game that your companion isn't the best sorcerer in the world.

[ZorroGames]

I think your only real option is to let her play her character the way she is and if she eventually starts feeling like investing more in the character and game then she can pick then.

I can kind of understand her attitude. Magic missile is basically the one spell that always hits, cant be resisted and has only 3 counters - shield, immunity to force damage and immunity to spells the level of the slot it was cast out of. With magic missile you almost never have completely wasted your action, even if it's not always optimal.

Brooch of Shielding (or some such name?)

[Vaz]

If you want to encourage some other use, you could give her a Magic Item that encourages use of the Sorcery Points. Perhaps when she does use her Sorcery Points for Metamagic, let her make a DC15 Arcana check, it's doesn't cost a Sorcery Point; if she beats it 5 or more, she gets 1 additional one back.

It doesn't sound as though it's going to turn into something that's going to break the game, especially on that character, but rewards good play, rather than penalizing how she wants to play.

Simple.

[Sigreid]

Brooch of Shielding (or some such name?)

Yeah, I kind of group that with the shield spell, but that's a fair call out.

[History_buff]

Sure, that's reasonable, not 'teach them a lesson'.

I was in a sour mood, teaching them a lesson is a little bit stronger than I meant.

But shield is a common spell. Pretty much all wizards will know it.

There’s a whole wide world of awesome spells out there, and being a magic missile turret... well that’s really boring. Nothing wrong with throwing a couple of enemies that know shield not to “teach a lesson” but to show “hey you know your M.O. works most of the time but not always there’s other things you can do.”

[SirGraystone]

I sadly see this more and more, peoples making only the most optimized character they can which is fine for them, but who get annoy at anyone else who make less "perfect" character.

The problem is not the player with the sorceress, she want to keep it simple, I assume she's having fun, let her play her way, Later when she has more experience she can change how she do thing. The only thing the OP will do is annoy her and drive her away from D&D. It's her character she doesn't need help let her play in peace.

[Naanomi]

I think there is a difference between ‘won’t optimize to the hilt’ and ‘only uses one spell and virtually no class abilities’... but if she is enjoying herself (and it sounds like perhaps she isn’t, but that is another issue) then I wouldn’t worry about it

[Arkhios]

Cantrips are fine for her, and some spells other than magic missile she have used occasionally. The "problem" seems to be that she doesn't want to keep track of anything other than spell slots, and would prefer using Magic Missile over anything else when she decides to use a spell slot. She would be happy with knowing only Magic Missile and finds it annoying that she has to choose more spells when leveling up, and claims that the idea of being able to alter any known spells with Metamagic seems too complicated and doesn't want to choose nor use them because of it. I realise that using sorcery points to only create more spell slots isn't breaking the game or anything, I'm just wondering if anything could be suggested as a replacement for metamagic so that the chosen class wouldn't begin to feel unsatisfying while at the same time respecting her choices.

"Spamming anything" isn't the point, and changing class to Warlock is neither a solution nor an option; Warlock doesn't get access Magic Missile and Warlock has much less spell slots than a sorcerer can have, even considering short rest recovery.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of these passive aggressive "solutions" to purposely force her to do something she doesn't want to, such as designing encounters and/or creatures purely to counter her chosen playstyle.

I don't want to force her to do anything, nor am I trying to annoy her. I'm merely looking for ideas that could help her enjoy her character more without gimping the character any further.

[Naanomi]

I wouldn’t call ‘facing a foe that has shield’ really being unreasonable... not only is it among the most common first level spells for anyone who could cast it to know; but if she is becoming at all well known, then her enemies should be devising ways to counter her... no different than finding a way to resist fire when facing ‘Flamo the Red-Dragon Sorcerer’

[Dudewithknives]

There is a minor problem out of character but I would have a major problem in character.

{Scrubbed}

If I am in a game that I am taking seriously but the DM has to dumb down things because you are a waste of space character who does not even build your character by the rules get the hell off my table.

This is not 3.5 with 500 prestige classes where you could really build a magic missile specialist.

In character if we are almost killed because you only want to cast one single spell that only does ok damage and it puts the party in danger because you will not even use the base normal abilities of your class, I will never heal you, I will never defend you, and there better be major plot reasons to even have you there.


I do not care if someone is optimized or not, if someone had the idea of playing a Dexterity based dual wielding barbarian fine.
I have even played in a game with a strength based rogue who use a glaive and polearm master, never sneak attacked once, but he was useful.

However if are playing a barbarian and you just decided you were not going to pick a subclass because you do not like the ones they made. Then I have a problem.

[Arkhios]

There is a minor problem out of character but I would have a major problem in character.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If I am in a game that I am taking seriously but the DM has to dumb down things because you are a waste of space character who does not even build your character by the rules get the hell off my table.

This is not 3.5 with 500 prestige classes where you could really build a magic missile specialist.

In character if we are almost killed because you only want to cast one single spell that only does ok damage and it puts the party in danger because you will not even use the base normal abilities of your class, I will never heal you, I will never defend you, and there better be major plot reasons to even have you there.


I do not care if someone is optimized or not, if someone had the idea of playing a Dexterity based dual wielding barbarian fine.
I have even played in a game with a strength based rogue who use a glaive and polearm master, never sneak attacked once, but he was useful.

However if are playing a barbarian and you just decided you were not going to pick a subclass because you do not like the ones they made. Then I have a problem.

So, in short, you're one of those people who see it as their god-given-right to become judgemental over other players' characters and choices in and out of game and not to cooperate with them just because they are playing in a less optimal way than you are?

Yeah, if I had to choose, I wouldn't join a game with you. Luckily, I don't have to.

I'm not judging her way of playing. Not even by a long shot. I'm only concerned whether she truly enjoys playing the character or not, all things considered.

And for the record, our DM isn't dumbing down encounters.

[Dudewithknives]

So, in short, you're one of those people who see it as their god-given-right to become judgemental over other players' characters and choices in and out of game and not to cooperate with them just because they are playing in a less optimal way than you are?

Yeah, if I had to choose, I wouldn't join a game with you. Luckily, I don't have to.

I'm not judging her way of playing. Not even by a long shot. I'm only concerned whether she truly enjoys playing the character or not, all things considered.

You created an entire thread complaining about the person at your table not taking metamagics, you don't get to then complain about someone else being judgemental.

[Arkhios]

You created an entire thread complaining about the person at your table not taking metamagics, you don't get to then complain about someone else being judgemental.

I wasn't complaining. That was me being concerned if the mandatory choices of her character's class could be replaced with something simpler than metamagics to help her enjoy her character further so that she wouldn't have to choose anything without making her character feel weak compared to other sorcerers.

I was trying to help her, not to punish her for her choices.

[Kane0]

Sounds fine to me, converting SP to slots still means they're getting used and it's not like MM is a terribad choice of spell. The important thing is that she's enjoying herself.

If you want, maybe just make a special metamagic specific to Magic Missile: When you cast MM expend one SP to add an extra missile (just like upcasting, but more efficient), or have one target get a Str save or be knocked prone or something.
Take that and Empower and there you go, cool options for improving her MM if she wants to.

Edit: OR take out metamagic and SP entirely and give a passive +1 missile every time she casts, or make it a scaling cantrip for her or whatever. Same effect, less legwork.

[Doug Lampert]

There is a minor problem out of character but I would have a major problem in character.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If I am in a game that I am taking seriously but the DM has to dumb down things because you are a waste of space character who does not even build your character by the rules get the hell off my table.

This is not 3.5 with 500 prestige classes where you could really build a magic missile specialist.

In character if we are almost killed because you only want to cast one single spell that only does ok damage and it puts the party in danger because you will not even use the base normal abilities of your class, I will never heal you, I will never defend you, and there better be major plot reasons to even have you there.

My problem with that attitude is that your character does NOT KNOW what her class abilities are. PCs are unusual, the normal spell-casters look like those in the MM, they don't have any sorcery points or metamagic.

If she's vastly less effective than the rest of the party, then other players are entitled to treat her character as a hired henchman or hanger-on rather than as a member of the team. And yes, full team members get the choice loot and the highest priority on healing.

But for all your character knows, her magic is inherent due to some quirk of her blood or how the stars were aligned at birth, you have no in character way to know that she has options she's not using. most casters just have spells. Many casters have a limited choice of spells.

She appears to have spells and the only useful spell she got was magic-missile. Other characters don't know what her build or capabilities are. They can't look at her character sheet, and this isn't 3.x where NPCs can PCs are built by the same rules, so you can't insist that you "know" that inherent casters have metamagic available, because lots of them don't.

She should be judged by whether she contributes reasonably to the group or is vastly weaker. And I find it very unlikely that she's anything like as ineffective as a fighter in 3.x in a party of full casters.

[Davrix]

There is a minor problem out of character but I would have a major problem in character.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If I am in a game that I am taking seriously but the DM has to dumb down things because you are a waste of space character who does not even build your character by the rules get the hell off my table.

This is not 3.5 with 500 prestige classes where you could really build a magic missile specialist.

In character if we are almost killed because you only want to cast one single spell that only does ok damage and it puts the party in danger because you will not even use the base normal abilities of your class, I will never heal you, I will never defend you, and there better be major plot reasons to even have you there.

I do not care if someone is optimized or not, if someone had the idea of playing a Dexterity based dual wielding barbarian fine.
I have even played in a game with a strength based rogue who use a glaive and polearm master, never sneak attacked once, but he was useful.

However if are playing a barbarian and you just decided you were not going to pick a subclass because you do not like the ones they made. Then I have a problem.
{Scrubbed}
Its a game, people should have fun when playing a game and oh guess what if you drive everyone away with that kind of attitude you are going to be plaything this game. BY YOURSELF, so have fun with that.

This is why I have a problem when people complain about new players wanting to be Link, or Goku or something silly they saw from a cartoon or a anime. It is OUR JOB to welcome these people into the fold. Accommodate where we can and help critique and advise where we cant. Like I said this person has a very distinct but limited view of how to play her sorc. Its fine and honestly it is not your job or anyone else at the table to make her play another way or harp on her to change. The DM's job here is to help her fit in and work within the rules to best fit her style of play right now. Once she is having fun and maybe more invested you can work on expanding that view and if all she wants is to cast Magic missile for the time being then so be it. The only job you have as players is to make her feel welcome and to offer advice to the DM on how to help said player.

To be honest your damn lucky she just waned to play something within the system that you can easily augment by the rules. As I said before simply slowly turn her into a blast lock via her magic missiles and I think she will be very happy.

You don't even have to give her a empowered magic missile spell that's just eldritch blast re-skinned. You can up the damage die, you can let her change the damage type on a whim. Design a fight where her blasting could shine and make her feel a little special. If you can get the player invested or interested in the game more, they will come around and ask what else they can do. The biggest problem here is she doesn't sound invested at all in the game or the setting. That all being said you may never get her hooked and that's ok. Everyone doesn't have to like everything. Try something else with a little role-playing but more of a board game like oh say the Witcher board game. Find whatever she is interested in and see if there isn't a game you ca play that could help key her into that style of thought. {Scrubbed}

[Unoriginal]

I'm all for being nice and helping new people, but it's not the DM's job to make a PC shine if the player is doing nothing for it.

If you want your PC to be awesome, then try to have them do awesome stuff.

I had a DM who ran a campaign in the Mass Effect universe. By the end of it, the players were so entitled and used to get everything granted to them with little or no effort that one of them took over Cerberus. By asking a NPC to do it for him off-screen. Basically for free.

For those who don't know, it's kind of like becoming the new Xanathar by asking a NPC to do it and then wait a few months of downtime.

[Davrix]

I'm all for being nice and helping new people, but it's not the DM's job to make a PC shine if the player is doing nothing for it.

If you want your PC to be awesome, then try to have them do awesome stuff.

I had a DM who ran a campaign in the Mass Effect universe. By the end of it, the players were so entitled and used to get everything granted to them with little or no effort that one of them took over Cerberus. By asking a NPC to do it for him off-screen. Basically for free.

For those who don't know, it's kind of like becoming the new Xanathar by asking a NPC to do it and then wait a few months of downtime.

Your missing the point. I am not talking about the fact the DM should always make every PC feel spiecal all the time. Yes its part of the PC's job to feel special with the DM's help. I'm talking of a NEW player. The DM should try to help that new player become invested and yes feel special so they become interested in the game. I am not saying they should do this often or it will lead to entitled PC's but then that's on the DM as well for handing things out to much.

[AHF]

Quickened could be explained as a benefit because it lets her drink a potion or so something else while still blasting a magic missile. She can blast a MM and Dodge to boost her D (disadvantage on attacks against her and advantage on dex saves). Lots of simple uses.

Thst seems like the easiest sell.

[Jerrykhor]

I don't respect people who refuse to think or do the minimal learning required for the game. Being a casual is fine, but straight up refusing to do anything else other than one spell is just down right stupid. You really can't help people who don't want to help themselves. And yes, I'd be quite annoyed if she was my party member.

If I were DM, I'd warn her that Magic Missiles can't solve every problem, and she's going to have a hard time playing her way. Unless you're running a carebear campaign or a game for kids, the game should turn out the way it should be: Her sorcerer running into many problems she can't solve, being a burden to the team and generally being ineffective in combat.

I am fine if D&D is not for everyone, just as most things are. I mean what do you expect for a game that is rooted deeply in nerd culture? There is only so much we can do to accommodate someone who refuse to do simple thinking.

[Vaz]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If I am in a game that I am taking seriously but the DM has to dumb down things because you are a waste of space character who does not even build your character by the rules get the hell off my table.

This is not 3.5 with 500 prestige classes where you could really build a magic missile specialist.

In character if we are almost killed because you only want to cast one single spell that only does ok damage and it puts the party in danger because you will not even use the base normal abilities of your class, I will never heal you, I will never defend you, and there better be major plot reasons to even have you there.


I do not care if someone is optimized or not, if someone had the idea of playing a Dexterity based dual wielding barbarian fine.
I have even played in a game with a strength based rogue who use a glaive and polearm master, never sneak attacked once, but he was useful.

However if are playing a barbarian and you just decided you were not going to pick a subclass because you do not like the ones they made. Then I have a problem.

You mean, aside from the fact that in universe, without that other character there, you'd either be dead a lot quicker, or facing the exact same monster only this time without the benefit of 30 Magic Missiles every day.

{scrubbed}

[Davrix]

I don't respect people who refuse to think or do the minimal learning required for the game. Being a casual is fine, but straight up refusing to do anything else other than one spell is just down right stupid. You really can't help people who don't want to help themselves. And yes, I'd be quite annoyed if she was my party member.

If I were DM, I'd warn her that Magic Missiles can't solve every problem, and she's going to have a hard time playing her way. Unless you're running a carebear campaign or a game for kids, the game should turn out the way it should be: Her sorcerer running into many problems she can't solve, being a burden to the team and generally being ineffective in combat.

I am fine if D&D is not for everyone, just as most things are. I mean what do you expect for a game that is rooted deeply in nerd culture? There is only so much we can do to accommodate someone who refuse to do simple thinking.

I'm sorry but I just don't get the hate over players like this. How is a new player suppose to feel welcome or get curious about anything when people tell them, well your doing it wrong. you should be doing it this way. Your not going to help anyone by that? Why would you want to put effort towards something if your just going to be shot down and say that's stupid, do it this way. A much better method is to try and get them excited, to learn more about the game or their class. If there afraid to step out of what they feel is comfortable to start with don't force them.

Now please understand I don't condone taking it to easy forever or handing them a golden ticket to easy mode. But if they are very new then you have to let them get to exploring the game and the system in their own way at least at first. Everything I have said so far in this thread comes with a big condition. The player must be new, never having played a tabletop game before or had a super bad experience and is trying again after many years of not bothering. You need to show these people the fun first and leave your ego about what is proper play at the doorstep. Give them a few weeks or even two or three months and if you don't see improvement or see them getting invested after trying ways to get them hooked or augmenting their playstyle to entice them into learning more. (See above posts for my suggestions on this) THEN you can have a sit down. Talk to the player ask what it is they want to get out of the game. If at this point she just answers Magic missile spam then you can gently explain how being single minded on a class might lead into other members of the table getting frustrated or worried that they might fail an encounter. Try to explain how encounters are built and that by being there, she makes the math raise the difficulty level for everyone. And if they really feel like that's all they should do then suggest that this probably isn't a game for them to be playing and explain to them why. No this isn't an easy thing to do and such but there is a difference between a player who is new and needs some coddling and a player who doesn't want to learn and it takes time and effort at first to distinguish between t he two.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it's like a job.

What does your boss at work do if you fail to perform?

"You're fired."

What, then, should a party do if somebody fails to perform?

"You're fired."

[Kane0]

... but its a hobby played for entertainment. I know I dont get paid to play, nor have an obligation to show.

[Unoriginal]

The player must be new, never having played a tabletop game before or had a super bad experience and is trying again after many years of not bothering

Does it apply with what OP said, though? I mean, if the player has to select several metamagics, and OP said she refused every time, doesn't that mean the group must have played through at least 4-5 levels (imagining they didn't start at lvl 1)?

Don't know if it's accurate or if you're still considered new after playing this much.

[Jerrykhor]

You can tell a person's level of intelligence from their idea of fun. So yeah, I don't think she's a smart woman. Not that you need a high level of it to be able to play this game, but still, you need some. All I'm saying is, one is certainly allowed to be stupid. Its not hate, its just the fact that you can't help some one who doesn't want to help themselves.

Just let her be and let her suffer the (natural) consequences that follow, and maybe she'll adapt. Only offer suggestions if she complains. Or maybe not, if she don't mind or don't care. Its just a game anyway.

But still, newbies should be playing with newbies.

[Kane0]

I think the biggest trouble is that, in your words, the DM is a sticker. So you can't homebrew or houserule in something that just simplifies things for her.
Without the ability to do that, what she's doing now id pretty much the best she can do, change over all her SP for slots so she can spam more missiles. At best you might be able to get her to use her leftover points on empower or something.

Don't stress about it too much though.

[Unoriginal]

Well now people are definitively getting aggressive and insulting.

There's a difference between not being interested in something and being stupid. I really can barely stand Pathfinder, so when my buddies invite me for a session, my character mostly use the same handful of spells every fights, when he uses spells. It's effective, mind you, and it fits the PC's personality, but I sure as hell have little interest in rummaging through all the books to find more spells.


The player should not be insulted or forced to do something else. It can annoying to play with someone who doesn't bother learning the game, true, but apparently it's not OP's problem.

[Kane0]

I really can barely stand Pathfinder, so when my buddies invite me for a session, my character mostly use the same handful of spells every fights, when he uses spells. It's effective, mind you, and it fits the PC's personality, but I sure as hell have little interest in rummaging through all the books to find more spells.


Would they let you port in a 3.5 Warlock or similar comversion? Caster with a smaller list of options without the dramatic loss in effectiveness.

[MBControl]

Entering this conversation late, so disregard if somebody has covered this, but instead of attacking with a rival sorcerer to "teach her a lesson", what about introducing an ally NPC sorcerer to demonstrate the other options of the class.

This would show her the same things as an opponent would, plus not sour the event in her mind.

[Ralanr]

Isn't there a metamagic she can use to do more magic missles?

Like, maximize magic missle?

[Jerrykhor]

Entering this conversation late, so disregard if somebody has covered this, but instead of attacking with a rival sorcerer to "teach her a lesson", what about introducing an ally NPC sorcerer to demonstrate the other options of the class.

This would show her the same things as an opponent would, plus not sour the event in her mind.

I think just deploying an enemy spellcaster who uses Shield would suffice. My guess is she uses MM because of its reliability and consistency, and she assumes it would work on any enemy. It'd be funny if she blow her highest level spell slot on the MM just to see it do nothing though, but hey, you got to learn not to be a one trick pony at some point.

If she ever questions you of trying to 'hard-counter' her, tell her that its one of the most common spells for spell casters looking for some defense, and that sorcerers have it too.

[Kane0]

Also Helmed Horrors. Aptly named when you're playing a warlock.

[Moxxmix]

OK, using Sorcery Points on level 1/2/3 spell slots for Magic Missile means each SP is worth 5.25/4.67/3.5 points of damage, respectively. Basically, each SP is worth the most when spent on the level 1 version of the spell. Since she doesn't want to keep track of stuff, I'm assuming she isn't creating spell slots higher than level 1 much, if at all. (I certainly don't blame her for finding the cost table annoying.)

Using Empower Spell on a level 1 MM that rolled three 1's would increase its total (average) damage by 4.5 points — nice enough, but not an improvement on par with just making another spell slot and firing another spell. Also, the odds of that are only 1 in 64; rare enough that it's not worth the bother.

Quicken would maybe be worth letting her "do something else". Maybe just let her Dodge all the time. However that depends on that being a useful use of her action, and she'd have to keep track of how many times she's allowed to dodge, vs how many extra spell slots she can create. Too much bookkeeping.

Subtle is just kinda silly, unless there are other mages Counterspelling her. Other mages using Shield are actually not too much of an issue; they'll run out of Shields long before she runs out of Magic Missiles. Heck, they'll run out of Counterspells before she runs out of Magic Missiles, too.


You know... this is kind of like those fighting games, where the opponent only has one move: Jab. And that one stupid move keeps interrupting you, and stops you from doing all the fancy cool moves you had planned out. And they just keep hitting that button over and over until you scream, but worse because they're winning. (I had that problem against Raphael in Soul Calibur. Stupid fricking jab.)

If the DM is playing the enemy characters legit, that mage that's doing nothing but casting Magic Missile has got to be fishing for Shields and Counterspells, and is eventually going to pull out the scary magic. Do you save that Counterspell for the Lightning Bolt you're expecting? Or is the Lightning Bolt coming RIGHT NOW and she's double-bluffing you? Counterspell! Dammit! Another Magic Missile!


Honestly, at the metagaming level it may seem a bit trivial, but psychologically I can see it being pretty nerve-wracking against certain opponents. Not the ogre; the ogre doesn't care. But the more intelligent opponents will be waiting for that finisher, and sitting twitchy on the use of Counterspell. Just find another spell that she takes a liking to, and tie Subtle Spell to that, and let it be a once-per-day thing using one leftover SP, so she doesn't have to keep track of counting extra stuff.

[ad_hoc]

As others have noted I don't see the problem in doing the thing that your class can do. After all, who else is going to attack the darkness?

Has anyone told the player that Wizards actually have slightly more spell slots than Sorcerers (after converting) because of their Arcane Recovery feature?

[Doug Lampert]

Well, it's like a job.

What does your boss at work do if you fail to perform?

"You're fired."

What, then, should a party do if somebody fails to perform?

"You're fired."
Agreed, but is she failing to perform?

Her "job" is to go on adventures and help kill things the party considers acceptable targets and take their loot. She is in fact performing that function. She could do better, but she is contributing.

In 3.5 where loot was a substantial fraction of your character's power, there was a real question as to whether some characters were worth their loot share. In 5th? How can a character that's contributing at all possibly NOT be worth having?

I'd have no problem with the rest of the party telling her, "You only get half a loot share" if they think she's only contributing half what another PC would, but a space she fills and shoots magic missiles at the enemy is clearly worth more than an empty space that DOES NOT shoot magic missiles at the enemy.

She's only worth "firing" if her contributions plainly aren't worth her "pay" (loot share) or if the same "pay" could hire someone better, which is not really the case in many campaigns.

[Kane0]

I really hope the DM gives her a Wand of Missiles, or two. It’s only uncommon, right?
Maybe quicken would be more useful in that situation too.

[Pex]

Ultimately it's her character. She gets to do what she wants, but I understand the feeling. Being an optimizer one can get over it when another player makes a suboptimal choice you would not, but when it's grossly suboptimal and the player refuses to change it you want to smack the sense into him several times across the face. As long as the annoying suboptimal choice does not result in the party being The Suck because of it you have to get over it anyway. The more you insist on a change the more the player will stubbornly refuse and then make other choices to spite you. The player does not care at all about optimization. He's not wrong for it. Such players have to learn for themselves. That is not to say they must optimize, but they still must learn to make competent enough characters.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here, folks. And remember that insulting others based on playstyle or game preferences is explicitly prohibited.

[Arkhios]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here, folks. And remember that insulting others based on playstyle or game preferences is explicitly prohibited.

Thank you for stepping in.

[Mikal]

The player doesnt have to use the metamagics, even if she chose them. If she's completely expending her Sorcery Points for more magic missiles, that's still the class working as designed. No need to change anything here.

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

If she doesn't want to use it, fine, no problem. But she still needs to actually choose one.

If you're playing a game, then you choose to abide by the rules of the game. Even if you choose not to actually use the option, the rules state you choose metamagic. She needs to just take 5 minutes and write it down. She doesn't need to memorize it. That's why we have these things called character sheets.

[LeonBH]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

Double surprise, she's actually a power gamer who casts only Magic Missile. Yeah, I don't think so.

[Mikal]

Double surprise, she's actually a power gamer who casts only Magic Missile. Yeah, I don't think so.

Of course, because her current actions mean she will never make any other changes ever, or that other players may take advantage of the situation.
If she truly cares only about spamming Magic Missile, then she should take Quicken as one of her choices. Boom. Double Magic Missiles!

[Specter]

For the upteenth time, you can't cast Magic Missile twice using Quickened.

[Naanomi]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!
I realize it probably doesn’t matter in this situation at all; but if a player wanted to delay picking a spell/ability/asi I would agree, but they’d have to choose after a long rest not ‘mid action’

[Mikal]

For the upteenth time, you can't cast Magic Missile twice using Quickened.

Sorry, caffeine hadn't kicked in yet.
Magic Missile plus firebolt then. whichever.
Regardless, it's a basic mechanic of the class. It's like saying "we only play monopoly once in awhile, how do you expect me to remember that I have to pay or roll doubles to get out of jail? Oh, and I refuse to actually do that."

Or

"We only play poker once every two months, so I don't remember that the big blind pays the ante. Also, I refuse to do so."

[the secret fire]

I think the suggestion to just re-skin the character as a warlock and re-skin the magic missiles as eldritch blasts is by far the most sensible thing to come out of this thread. Now she never runs out of magic missiles, and her other abilities don't potentially take away from the use of her schtick, so she might actually use them. This player wants simplicity, so give her the simpler class.

[Doug Lampert]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

Yep, and I allow delayed choices in all my games. You can choose when I next award XP and allow advancement. No other time.

Strangely, your strawman of how delayed choices works never happens.


I realize it probably doesn’t matter in this situation at all; but if a player wanted to delay picking a spell/ability/asi I would agree, but they’d have to choose after a long rest not ‘mid action’

Long rest still means you can choose to fit the current situation rather than the build or the long term usefulness. You can do that, but IMAO when you give XP is the correct time for a delayed choice, retrain, or rebuild if any of these are allowed.

[Satsujinki]

I wouldn't want to be her when the dm uses shield or a monster that has features like shield spell.

[Mikal]

Yep, and I allow delayed choices in all my games. You can choose when I next award XP and allow advancement. No other time.

Strangely, your strawman of how delayed choices works never happens.

How is it a strawman?

I pointed out a potential exploit of delaying that choice, one where a player goes "well I guess I'll make the choice now when it best benefits me!", either because they thought of it themselves or another player thought of it.

Your game, and whether or not you allowed delayed choices, has no bearing on how other games run and whether or not this is a scenario which could be attempted.

[Pex]

I think the suggestion to just re-skin the character as a warlock and re-skin the magic missiles as eldritch blasts is by far the most sensible thing to come out of this thread. Now she never runs out of magic missiles, and her other abilities don't potentially take away from the use of her schtick, so she might actually use them. This player wants simplicity, so give her the simpler class.

Magic Missile hits automatically. Eldritch Blast requires a roll to hit. In addition, you get more Magic Missiles using higher spell slots. The mechanical differences are significant enough they'll likely bother the player into not wanting to do this.

The player might be convinced to take Empower Spell. She gets to reroll 1s. The choice to use it is done after her roll. If she doesn't mind a die or two being a 1 at a particular time she doesn't have to use it, but the option is there if she's in the mood.

Distant Spell can be sold to her to allow her to cast Magic Missile against a bad guy farther away than normal. She doesn't need to use it often, but for those once in a while situations the option is there.

[Mikal]

Magic Missile hits automatically. Eldritch Blast requires a roll to hit. In addition, you get more Magic Missiles using higher spell slots. The mechanical differences are significant enough they'll likely bother the player into not wanting to do this.

The player might be convinced to take Empower Spell. She gets to reroll 1s. The choice to use it is done after her roll. If she doesn't mind a die or two being a 1 at a particular time she doesn't have to use it, but the option is there if she's in the mood.

Distant Spell can be sold to her to allow her to cast Magic Missile against a bad guy farther away than normal. She doesn't need to use it often, but for those once in a while situations the option is there.

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

[the secret fire]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Yeah...I mean, I don't know these people, but from what's described in this thread, this player sounds pretty borderline. I dunno...is she contributing at the table in other ways? Is her character involved in social situations? If she's really just sitting around waiting for the next opportunity to cast magic missile then there is probably nothing that can be done as she simply lacks interest in the game. But that's not necessarily the case.

[Vaz]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Considering that I got an infraction for criticising peoples play styles, can I get a mod to run over this thread with the hypocrisy hammer as they seem to have missed people doing the same.

Thanks.

[Dudewithknives]

Considering that I got an infraction for criticising peoples play styles, can I get a mod to run over this thread with the hypocrisy hammer as they seem to have missed people doing the same.

Thanks.

I got one too, I am sure many people did.

[Vaz]

I got one too, I am sure many people did.

Clearly not done the job then has it given that we're still experiencing it. It's almost as if this thread is missing something obvious, like a big red text where a moderator tells people to be civil. (Not aimed at you, being clear)

[ErHo]

Why play at all if youre just going to spam MM?

Advancing a character is more than half the game!

Well if she quits you can just replace her with a gnome in a loin cloth and a wand of magic missiles and never miss a beat

[Mikal]

Clearly not done the job then has it given that we're still experiencing it. It's almost as if this thread is missing something obvious, like a big red text where a moderator tells people to be civil. (Not aimed at you, being clear)

You mean the thing where it says not to insult people for playing a certain way?
Asking a question isn't insulting.

[Arkhios]

Alright, guys, if you have nothing else to say on this topic than to quibble at each other, do it somewhere else.

[Mikal]

Alright, guys, if you have nothing else to say on this topic than to quibble at each other, do it somewhere else.

Per my last post before it got derailed, I have to wonder about the level of buy in by this player, and whether or not the investment is worth it for either them, the DM, or other players.

If one player is being that disruptive and dismissive of the most basic rules, then what's the point?

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't respect people who refuse to think or do the minimal learning required for the game. Being a casual is fine, but straight up refusing to do anything else other than one spell is just down right stupid. You really can't help people who don't want to help themselves. And yes, I'd be quite annoyed if she was my party member. Have you ever DM'd for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before? I have. Your attitude won't work with that group in my experience. The climate at the table that our OP described would probably work, since the sorcie as described seems to be having fun. She's got something right about this game.

... but instead of attacking with a rival sorcerer to "teach her a lesson", what about introducing an ally NPC sorcerer to demonstrate the other options of the class. This would show her the same things as an opponent would, plus not sour the event in her mind. It might, and it's worth a try.

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."? Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it. See my point above about DM'ing for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14).

[Mikal]

Have you ever DM'd for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before? I have. Your attitude won't work with that group in my experience. The climate at the table that our OP described would probably work, since the sorcie as described seems to be having fun. She's got something right about this game.
It might, and it's worth a try.
See my point above about DM'ing for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14).

There's a difference between playing for people ages 9-14 and playing with friends of an equal age.
If we were discussing teaching D&D to children or having them in a mixed group, then yes, certain latitudes should be made, but from what's been said in the thread so far that doesn't seem to be the case.

However, that being said even with those latitudes I as a DM wouldn't let the player just ignore the rules. I'd be using it to help teach the rules, either directly or with adult supervision to help with it.

If a 9 year old can use an iPad, they can remember what metamagic can do, or when to roll for an attack, especially if prompted from time to time by the DM or their teaching buddy.

[KorvinStarmast]

There's a difference between playing for people ages 9-14 and playing with friends of an equal age.
mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before?
That is what I wrote. You only responded to half of it. I do understand your reply, however.

[MeeposFire]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Honestly I do not know why this is an issue. Is she happy? Is the group operating under a happy dynamic on the whole? If you were in the group and were not so wrapped up in what this other playing was doing are you having fun?

If the answers are yes why should she have to change her play style to placate you? Who cares if she could do better as long as the group is doing fine? If she is having the amount of fun she wants what right do you have to take it away because you feel like she should be more active?

Just let the woman have her fun she is not hurting anybody is what I say. The OP did not mention any factors that I can recall that are causing any real problems only not liking that she is refusing to care about certain class features.

I remember back in 4e I played a lazy warlord which was playing the warlord class (a warrior type that was most well know for granting bonuses and extra attacks to party members) but taking only powers that did not require my warlord to attack or hit to work. So instead of using an attack where I roll a D20 to see if I hit and then I would affect other players I would use attacks that allowed me to get the others players to attack with bonuses. If I did not want to roll a D20 to attack I did not have to and the game was fun (in this case I found it fun because I got to play as a chess master moving pieces around the battlefield and telling them to attack).

She still has to choose targets. She still has to play a character. She still is involved with the game. Maybe she is not really into combat or she likes the simple pleasures of casting such an iconic spell (I attack the darkness!) anyway you slice it I do not see this being worth pushing somebody out of the game if she is not hurting the group (and I mean hurting not merely contributing as much as you might be able).

[Kane0]

I'm sort of surprised 2d8HP hasn't said anything yet. I think he'd be entirely in favor of this method of play, especially when it comes to casters.

[Arkhios]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

[Kane0]

Ooh, this is the sort of situation where spell cards could really help out. Maybe make some similar ones for metamagic. Counters or something might also aid the resource management aspect.
Do you use laptops? There are plenty of options for alternate character sheets. I much prefer excel sheets, since I can lay it out how I like it for simplicity and add comments and such for extra info without cluttering everything up. That sort of thing might help too.

My previous posts stand as well, ask your DM about homebrew metamagic or just ripping out the feature in favor of some passive benefit to her preferred spell(s).

[Unoriginal]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

Well if it was what you wanted, you should have started with it.

IMO, the solution is, like many things about D&D: talk about it.

Talk about it with your fiancée. Talk about it with your DM. Talk about it with both of them.

If she likes 5e despite everything, and the group likes playing together, then I'm sure she can be convinced to write a few words on her sheet referring to abilities she's not going to use, and everything will be solved for both her and the DM.

What backstory did she decide for her character? Maybe it can be worked into that, for ex. that her magic is more rigid than most Sorcerers or that her training isn't that great.

If you *want* to help her be less "intimidated" by the rules, then talk with her about it. Just sit down and offer to explain the rules a bit more, when she can and want. Or just to explain the Sorcerer class.

As Kane0 said, spell cards or the like can be useful, too.

[Angelalex242]

Oh, it's your fiancée. That changes...pretty much everything.

Communication is key in relationships. Also key in RPGs. Talk to her as much as you can, explain the options, and then if she freaks, cuddle till she feels safe again.

[2D8HP]

I'm sort of surprised 2d8HP hasn't said anything yet. I think he'd be entirely in favor of this method of play, especially when it comes to casters.


Well yes, it simplifies play.

I've actually been thinking about starting a "How do you have training wheels for spell casting" thread for a while now, as the Champion is the "Martial" training wheels sub class, but I don't really see a caster (or half caster) equivalent.

It seems to me that the player in the OP's question has hit upon a way to learn the game at her own pace, but folks are being uptight about her not playing "optimally", I know that in a 5e game when we all rolled for stats, and I rolled a high INT, I spent some time reading up on the Wizard class (so many more options than an 0e/1e Magic-User!), I knew that there was no way for me to learn it quickly enough to play even remotely effective enough for my co-players, so I made the PC a High Elf Rogue with the Firebolt cantrip and the Investigation skill (so INT had some use), which caused another player to chastised me for playing the stats "sub-optimally", leaving a bad taste.

"Magic Missile Lady" is already playing her PC better than I could, and I know if I were in her place, a few suggestions would be welcome, but continous "back seat driving" of my PC, and insisting that I "must learn faster, and play more optimally" would tick me off and make me bail out on the game.


....We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex....


I sympathize, as I played a mix of "bluebook Basic", 0e D&D, and 1e AD&D, then some other games, then nothing from 1992 till starting gaming wirh 5e, and I'm sure that if you do a long enough search of my old posts, you'll find more of mine like:


...."rules light compared with previous editions"??!!!??
The 1977 "blue book" rules from the Basic Set was 48 pages, the small-print 1978 PHB was 128 pages, as was the large-print 1994 The Classic Dungeons and Dragons Rules and Adventures Book. The 5e PHB is over 316 freakin' pages.

5e Light?

What monstrosity of an edition is heavy than?


To which some responses were:


Hahahahahahahaha. You really never looked at 3.5, did you?


and


To be fair, I should have qualified my post by saying 5e is rules-light compared to some previous editions. My preference would be for the core rules book to be less than 100 pages, and make judicious use of specific, defined, consistent terminology.


The thing is if you play a Champion Fighter you can play a "training wheels class" which is relatively easy to master the options (compared to other classes and sub-classes), which is fine if your character concept is "guy with a bow and a sword", but if you want to play a Magic-User in 5e, there are just so many options and resources to keep track of that it's difficult to learn and keep track of (yes someone's may be reading this and saying "It was easy for me", well congratulations, enjoy your cognitive agility while it lasts).

The Spell Cards idea sounds like it may be worthwhile, but really it seems to me that Magic Missile Lady is doing fine and naysayers should cut some slack.

[Honest Tiefling]

It sounds like she wants something like the 3.5 Warlock, where she has one schtick (Magic Missile!) all day long. It would be easy enough to build a custom class around that*, but since you said the DM is a RAW-stickler, that's probably not an option...Empower Spell (shoot stronger missiles!), with Distant Spell (sniper missiles!) and Subtle Spell (invisible missiles) as later picks. Explain the effects in terms of Magic Missile.

I'd vote this. Perhaps suggest to the DM of making a rival Sorcerer, who uses meta-magic on her favorite spell. It sure as heck won't convince her to use other spells, but it might be a good basis to form a sense of competition. You can bring the sorcerer to water, but you can't make it drink. But you can show them other tactics/features/systems, and hope they'll learn on their own.

If nothing else, she could murder the rival sorcerer and take their things. PCs tend to like that. So even if it doesn't work, she won't feel as if something centered on her was utterly wasted.

[Unoriginal]

Would they let you port in a 3.5 Warlock or similar comversion? Caster with a smaller list of options without the dramatic loss in effectiveness.

They probably would, if I asked to. That'd be far from the most powerful homebrew people around the table got.

Thing is, I don't want to. My character is far from ineffective, and neither I nor my group have a problem with my PC.

[Vaz]

My wife plays Diablo 3 and Dynasty Warriors and other similar style games on the lowest difficulty. I play higaher Greater Rifts and Difficulty settings.

She sees me and laughs when I get frustrated over dying on a hardcore character or failing to complete a GR in time, or getting a bad roll on an otherwise perfect item, or dying to Lu Bu when I crank the game up to hardest difficulty.

Meanwhile, she sits down, plays it on normal mode, or easy, crushed it and has fun. Her playing on D3 is nowhere near endgame material and gets frustrated when Lu Bu kills her on normal, but at a much lower rate than I do when playing Chaos, Torment 13, or Greater Rift 85+, but she has a lot more fun playing it.

So what if she's mixing 3 different elements and uses a 2h legendary rather than a 1h, it looks cool and the colours look AMAZING.

So, sure I have end game ultra maximised gear when I'm edging for the next perfect roll, or levelling my gems up slightly. But i sometimes wonder who gets more fun out of playing it.

Let your wife to be, be.

Protip for marriage.

[MeeposFire]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

This is understandable. Now if she is enjoying herself what I would suggest is just allow her to continue.

Now for her metamagic choices I would recommend helping her choose a couple (I assume she is low enough level that she can only have a couple choices) that she she will not use often but in niche situations. The reason why I suggest this is that it sounds like she may be unsure of what to choose and probably has some analysis paralysis over the choices and how to use them so she chooses to go for the safe route of being able to cast more spells. If she is too afraid to choose them herself and says she only wants to cast magic missile I would tell her that only casting magic missile is fine but we should choose our meta magic and let her know it is cool if she does not use it just letting her know that she can save their use in case of emergency (which is why I suggest tkaing some that are best used in niche situations rather than the more typical useful/powerful options that most players would use more often).

Seeing this I say use this as an advantage by choosing metamagic that she would not have to worry about using all the time but have a niche use that is obvious when needed. Some good examples might be subtle and distant. Subtle is great because she can ignore it in most situations but in the once in a blue moon situation it can be crucial such as she is in a zone of silence and needs to cast a spell while in it. She can then use it in this situation without fear that it may be a wrong choice because it is clearly needed at that point and at the same time it rewards her for having a contingency plan which may incentivize her to try using it in other situations. Something like distant has the same bonus in that most of the time she will not need it so it will not be in the way but if there is a magic missile target that is somehow out of reach and she really wants to hit them well then she will have it and I think that will happen to make her happy I think.


Hopefully if she gets to use these limited choices a number of times it may give her more confidence to use them more and use them in different ways. If not hopefully she just gets a little bit more enjoyment.

Also your DM is a stickler for rules but perhaps can the DM use teachable moments in the game to reward her potential choices? The best way to get her interested in making choices and want to do more is to show that her choices mean something and that she can make good choices. So whatever she chooses I hope the DM can use those to give her situations where they are useful though it is best if the DM can be a little subtle about it since some players do not want the situation to be too contrived but something like having somebody use a silence effect on her if she has subtle or giving her far away targets she can plink away at using distant magic missile (or whatever she ends up having).


Since she is doing character backgrounds and the like she may be interested in that part of the game so perhaps explaining using these metamagics in terms of her character may also help make them more palatable (my sorcerer developed her distant technique because she was tired of her prey escaping destruction by running away!).

[History_buff]

You could encourage her to take subtle spell by suggesting to the DM that with no verbal components or somatic components giving it away it should be worth at least a surprise round for her to get another magic missile in at least.

[strangebloke]

If you're doing something together and you both like it, don't sweat the details. Her happiness is far more important than the DND game that you're playing together. She'll be upstaged, but if she doesn't mind that (and in my experience, most girls who play DnD don't mind being upstaged as much) who cares? If your party is griping that she's a 'deadweight,' well, put that cross on your shoulders and be sure to kick extra ass.

I play with my wife as well. she's perfectly content to play a Sorcerer with 14 STR and no DEX. nobody cares. She still contributes and she's good at RPing.

At most, I'd just suggest she pick up some 'pick and forget' metamagic. Distant 'just in case they're too far away to magic missile' and quicken 'in case you need to run away before casting.' If she doesn't want even that much, drop the topic like a hot iron.

Not worth it.

Other players bring it up? Make eye contact with them, and say, "That's not how she wanted to build. Respect that." Be polite in your tone and make death threats with your eyes.

[Davrix]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

Knowing she is your future wife puts a very different light on this situation but I still stand by my original advice. Instead of trying to suggest she take things. Augment what she is doing and hope maybe it entices her to explore more. Find empowered versions of magic missiles that increase the Die damage or lets her add her int mod to the damage. Let her spend spell points to increase the number of missles, that might be an easy rule she can remember and will latch onto. Though I do wonder why she doesn't take quicken at least so she can double cast but maybe if you ease in the improved spell features to MM it will help keep her DPR up at least with the rest of the party.

[hymer]

Talk to her as much as you can, explain the options, and then if she freaks, cuddle till she feels safe again.

I suppose cuddling is a variation of body language. :smallsmile:
I'll add a specific on the 'talk to her': 'Listen to her'. Ask elucidating questions, sure, and answer what questions are put to you, but above all else: Listen!
I expect this may be known already, but it's generally worth repeating a few times. :smallbiggrin:

[Beelzebubba]

(Not relevant to the advice thread, but she sounds like the type of person that wants a system like Dungeon World, honestly.)

If she's having fun, and the rest of the table doesn't mind, then there's no problem. Let her come in to the game, be a different person, and be the Mage equivalent of a Champion Fighter. I don't see the problem, and - contrary to a way too huge number of smarter-than-thou snobs in this thread, I say let her come and use funny voices and throw magic missiles and it'll be OK.

I know what it's like to have a busy, difficult job and want a low-stress, low complexity hobby. This is better than her vegging out in front of a TV. Let her engage more as she wants over time, don't push it. She's already at the table, she'll grow into it. I've had several players like that, and almost all of them did.

[Cynthaer]

Well yes, it simplifies play.

I've actually been thinking about starting a "How do you have training wheels for spell casting" thread for a while now, as the Champion is the "Martial" training wheels sub class, but I don't really see a caster (or half caster) equivalent.

It seems to me that the player in the OP's question has hit upon a way to learn the game at her own pace, but folks are being uptight about her not playing "optimally", I know that in a 5e game when we all rolled for stats, and I rolled a high INT, I spent some time reading up on the Wizard class (so many more options than an 0e/1e Magic-User!), I knew that there was no way for me to learn it quickly enough to play even remotely effective enough for my co-players, so I made the PC a High Elf Rogue with the Firebolt cantrip and the Investigation skill (so INT had some use), which caused another player to chastised me for playing the stats "sub-optimally", leaving a bad taste.

"Magic Missile Lady" is already playing her PC better than I could, and I know if I were in her place, a few suggestions would be welcome, but continous "back seat driving" of my PC, and insisting that I "must learn faster, and play more optimally" would tick me off and make me bail out on the game.

Can't emphasize this enough.

There are two possibilities here. Either she is fundamentally uninterested in the complexities of 5e and always will be, or she may eventually be interested in going deeper into the mechanics of the system, but currently finds it overwhelming.

Either way, she has successfully stripped her class down to an amount of mechanical complexity that she feels comfortable with while being engaged with the game—writing backstory, dealing damage, and (presumably) participating out of combat.

If she's fundamentally uninterested in more complexity, trying to get her to use more spells and/or class features is strictly counterproductive. It's just going to annoy her and make her spend time on something she doesn't care about instead of something she does.

If she's merely overwhelmed, it's still counterproductive to try and push her towards a more mechanically complex play style, because it's putting the cart before the horse. Showing someone interesting mechanics only works if the appeal of the game for them is the mechanics (this is common among TTRPG forum-goers). But if the primary appeal is the role-playing and storytelling, then the only way they will ever want to learn more mechanics is if they remain engaged with these elements long enough to want to branch out.

I'm reminded of Magic: the Gathering. At its heart, it's a staggeringly complex game, and the basic combat math of normal creatures alone can be overwhelming. And yet some kids as young as 6 can start playing it. Why? Because the art looks so good, and the sight of people casting monsters and attacking each other with with looks like so much fun, that the kid is willing to learn whatever pile of rules and math they need to in order to participate.

Whatever you do, anything that reduces player fun or engagement, even temporarily, is death. Anything that increases player fun or engagement will bring them closer to system mastery.

(Or, at worst, it keeps them exactly where they are, but they're engaged and having fun, so everybody still wins.)

[opaopajr]

She obviously doesn't care about it. And may never come to care about it. So what? :smallcool: Let her have her fun! :smalltongue:

If you absolutely *must* resolve this, roll a die and let it select. Done. She won't use it now, and when she is curious she only has to pay attention to the two (or more? what lvl now?) already selected. Problem solved. :smallcool:

[Byke]

I'm with the other let her plays as she wants. As long is she is engaged and participating that is all that matter.

As a DM when you have a new player that is unsure or afraid of the rules, then you should be using the rule of cool.

If she was in my campaign, understanding that she only uses magic missiles, I would put her in situation or guide her to use magic missile in a variety of non-standard ways.

Examples

1) if she is stuck in a pit - allow the missile to stick into the wall and last long enough to be used to climb out.
2) She is falling - Missiles attach to her arms...works like fly spell
3) She needs to run away, missile attach to her feet - Haste/Expeditious retreat
4) Group of baddies...missile swarm -Fireball spell

If the DM does it right, she will remember those uses of MM the next time she plays and will have thought of new ones for the next session.

She may be afraid of the rules, but if she is actively trying to use the one spell and given some leeway to use her imagination instead of learning all of the rules. It will make for a memorable character and an engaged player. (I still have noobies in my group, that after a year ask the same questions they did on day 1. It's part of the experience, cherish it. sometimes it's better than having a group of min/maxers with 20+ years of experience, they just become predictable)

As for the Metamagic....I agree with the subtle and empower, suggested above just don't make it default on every spells, instead make it happen when they role play it.

[Kane0]

I've actually been thinking about starting a "How do you have training wheels for spell casting" thread for a while now, as the Champion is the "Martial" training wheels sub class, but I don't really see a caster (or half caster) equivalent.

The thing is if you play a Champion Fighter you can play a "training wheels class" which is relatively easy to master the options (compared to other classes and sub-classes), which is fine if your character concept is "guy with a bow and a sword", but if you want to play a Magic-User in 5e, there are just so many options and resources to keep track of that it's difficult to learn and keep track of (yes someone's may be reading this and saying "It was easy for me", well congratulations, enjoy your cognitive agility while it lasts).


Like via homebrew or stock rules?

[2D8HP]

Like via homebrew or stock rules?


Stock rules, I'll ask the Forum's wisdom in a new thread.

[KenMasters]

Damn that's a lot of replies but still I think I got what's important...

She loves using spells and magic missiles is her favorite, then it's simple way to tell her like this:

its more efficient to not waste your sorcery points into new spells, at least at low lvls if you have a cool metamagic called twin spell, which allows you to cast to of the same spells that target one enemy (but in this case you need to choose another target).

cost is only 1 sorcery point, and to create a spell lvl 1 will take you 2 sorcery points and more rounds to cast than just do it all on the same time when you twin it

then when you see her having low dice rolls and feels her damage lacking suggest empower spell can save the day as you can see the rolls and then decide if you wanna use it. for 1 sorcery point.

[Arkhios]

Damn that's a lot of replies but still I think I got what's important...

She loves using spells and magic missiles is her favorite, then it's simple way to tell her like this:

its more efficient to not waste your sorcery points into new spells, at least at low lvls if you have a cool metamagic called twin spell, which allows you to cast to of the same spells that target one enemy (but in this case you need to choose another target).

cost is only 1 sorcery point, and to create a spell lvl 1 will take you 2 sorcery points and more rounds to cast than just do it all on the same time when you twin it

then when you see her having low dice rolls and feels her damage lacking suggest empower spell can save the day as you can see the rolls and then decide if you wanna use it. for 1 sorcery point.

I'm quite certain that Magic Missile doesn't qualify for Twinned metamagic because as written it can have multiple targets.

[LeonBH]

I'm quite certain that Magic Missile doesn't qualify for Twinned metamagic because as written it can have multiple targets.

You are correct.

[Davrix]

I'm quite certain that Magic Missile doesn't qualify for Twinned metamagic because as written it can have multiple targets.


You are correct.

Though in this case probably not the end of game balance as we know it if you were to let her do so. Specifically if it enticed her to learn more about the game in the future.

[Arkhios]

Though in this case probably not the end of game balance as we know it if you were to let her do so. Specifically if it enticed her to learn more about the game in the future.

Unfortunately, that's not my call to make. I'm not the DM. To be honest, I guess this thread has ran it's course. Thank you everyone for your ideas. Maybe we can work something out with the DM.

[Davrix]

Unfortunately, that's not my call to make. I'm not the DM.

No it's not sadly but If i was your DM I would of already tried to implement ways to entice her into more or at the very least just turned up the damage and augmented the spell to the point that while its not optimal at least she would be happy spamming it and not dragging down party damage by a ton. But that's me. It be very simple to turn her into just a magic missile turret.

[Kane0]

Worst case scenario Distant and Subtle are solid choices for 'just in case' situations, won't need to use them most of the time and just remind her when the opportunity presents itself. Empower at level 10 if she's more comfortable by then.

[Citan]

Unfortunately, that's not my call to make. I'm not the DM. To be honest, I guess this thread has ran it's course. Thank you everyone for your ideas. Maybe we can work something out with the DM.
Hey ;)
I'm a bit late into the discussion but since you're gonna throw some ideas at the DM, keeping in mind that the primary goal is to keep your girlfriend having fun but gently helping her being more useful...

1. Discuss lightly with her (like, not a straight "what do you find difficult" but rather bringing the topic "complexity of RPG" in a discussion with friends) and try to find whether...
a) She just isn't interested in the game system.
b) She just feels overwhelmed with choices...

If B), then maybe you could just make the metamagic choices for her, and just tell her how her MM has improved. And work with the DM to make a one-run calculation with SP then tell her how many times in the day she can use it.

If you also want to keep her play relevant, as others said, have DM illustrates how a Sorcerer can be powerful through NPC, or just suggest to her one or two easy to use spells such as buffs (Fly/Haste/Enhance Ability/Counterspell) or single-target damage/debuff.

I'd really suggest to the DM though a slight exception to the rules, by directly using spell points variants. That way, you both can "upgrade" Magic Missiles without her having to directly think about it, until she feels ready to take the reins.

If A), or if the DM is ready to make minor adjustments to really make her character concept and still keep her contribution relevant as the party grows in level...
1. Strip her of metamagics and spell known besides Shield, Magic Missile, and maybe one or two other low level spells she'd actually like to use.
2. Increase the die at, 5th, 11th, 17th level..
3. Increase the number of darts at 3rd, 7th, 13th level.
3. Consider it's an at-will level.
4. Make Spell Sniper work with it as a 8th level class feature.
5. Make Draconic Origin +CHA work with it (she's Draconic right?).
That should be far enough to keep her relevant. We are talking about auto-damage spell after all.

If even that is too complex to manage for DM or her, then just make it a "cantrip" that...
- either has a number of darts equal to half character level and deals 1d8+CHA damage (if you like many rolls).
- or behaves like the normal spell cast as 1st level but each deal extra damage equal to half character level.