What, exactly, IS Wisdom?

[AureusFulgens]

This is one I've been grappling with for a little while.

The other five ability scores are more or less self-explanatory. Strength = ability to move heavy things and hit hard. Dexterity = ability to move with precision and grace. Constitution = all sorts of toughness (both taking hits and not getting diseases). Intelligence = knowing things and logic-ing. Charisma = having a compelling, magnetic personality. All of those are simplifications, mind you, but they cover the basic idea.

I can't even manage a simplified explanation for Wisdom. The name suggests good decision-making skills or life experience. It's also the basis for Perception and Insight, skills related to noticing and understanding things. Yet it's also the basis for saves based on willpower and resisting being controlled. Not to mention it's the basis for Medicine and Survival, which both sound more Intelligence to me, and Animal Handling, which seems at least vaguely Charisma (though I'm on the fence about that).

EDIT: And it's also the basis for Cleric spellcasting, on the rationale that it's the ability to intuit one's deity's will and intentions. So basically Insight, which I kind of understand.

So what would you all say Wisdom is, exactly? As a corollary, what does playing a character with high or low Wisdom mean?

[Millstone85]

It is all perception.

You have general alertness (perception), a deeper reading of the terrain (survival), and the ability to read another's behavior (insight) or physical state (medecine), with a separate skill if they are a beast (animal handling).

The save is about self-scrutiny, realizing what is going on in your own mind.

[Ninja_Prawn]

As far as I'm concerned, the 'quick and dirty' definition of D&D Wisdom is intuition, good judgement, common sense, empathy and generally being observant and in tune with the world around you. That's about what I'd say to a new player during their first session.

To be honest, I think a lot of the Wisdom saving throws in the book should be changed to Charisma or in some cases Constitution. But Wisdom is the default for any kind of 'mental fortitude' saves, so...

So, like, 'how much salt do I add to this sauce?' is a Wisdom check. Split-second decision-making (as in emergency medicine) is a Wisdom check. 'Is that bobcat about to attack me?' is a Wisdom check. In a way, it's easier to describe how a person with an unusually high or low Wisdom score would behave, than to define the term itself.

[No brains]

Wisdom is the ability to gather information using senses, even senses beyond the normal 5.

Wisdom helps perception because it helps one realize what they are sensing, wisdom helps insight because it helps one figure out another's non-verbal cues, and wisdom helps animal handling because animals don't really take a lot to manipulate once one figures out their goals and the cues for those goals.

In the cases of medicine and survival, there is situational subjectivity that is important to success. Proficiency describes the underlying knowledge that intelligence could contribute, but judging the specific cases are more important.

Wisdom helps medicine because the patient, the ailment, and what is available to treat them all matter as much as the other and their interaction needs to be judged based on observation.

Wisdom helps survival because in a survival situation, one is not afforded the luxury of clear data. One could know 'apples are edible', but how does one know if any given fruit is an apple? Also sources of water are not always in entirely logical places, but clues from plants and animals nearby can reveal water better than geological knowledge.

Wisdom saves... are honestly all over the place. I can understand how wisdom can help one realize they are being charmed, but sometimes that is also expressed as a charisma save. I also have no clue how wisdom can keep a person safe from Spirit Guardians, Polymorph, or Toll The Dead.

Wisdom helps divine spellcasting probably because religious leaders end up being described as wise. Board rules prevent further elaboration on that point. I guess in the context of D&D, maybe a character's wisdom represents a psychic connection to their god that tells them how their god does stuff. The better one's ESP, the better they can read the god-instructions on how to magic.

[Morty]

It's not just you; Wisdom is a jumbled mess of an attribute. It's all the mental things that don't fit into Intelligence or Charisma, unless they do, but they're in Wisdom anyway. That said "what's playing a character with a high or low X like" isn't a very useful question anyway, even with more clear-cut attributes. With something as vague as wisdom, it's even less so.

[KorvinStarmast]

From the Basic Rules page 8.

A character with high Wisdom has good judgment, empathy, and a general awareness of what’s going on. A character with low Wisdom might be absent-minded, foolhardy, or oblivious.

Wisdom Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight

From basic rules page 57 regarding use of ability scores
Wisdom, measuring perception and insight Same text is in the PHB.

From page 61

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition. There you go.

In other terms, you can say that Wisdom represents the mental faculty of synthesis, which is taking different things/inputs and putting together something from those inputs. That's a way to describe the intuition, perception, and awareness bits of the stat.

The Insight ability check takes cues from, for example, tone of voice, expression, body language, and what's being said to give the person making the check an idea of what's really going on during this conversation.

Another way to look at this is in trying to piece together a puzzle from parts that you've never seen together before.

[the secret fire]

Your question is a good one. Wisdom is sort of an amorphous catch-all for all the mental traits people possess which are not tied directly to raw processing power (Int) or personal magnetism (Cha). It includes willpower, common sense, some elements of emotional intelligence (Insight), how observant you are, and even some really hard to pin down stuff like how well you get along with animals.

Wisdom in D&D is not at all easy to define. Some of the reasons for this are artificial - essentially a balancing mechanism between the three mental stats. Much of what is covered by Wisdom could conceivably be covered by the other two stats; Wisdom could even be done away with, entirely, if one wanted to. Charisma could cover "strength of personality" and be the ruling stat for will saves, animal handling, etc. while Intelligence could cover stuff like survival, insight, perception, etc. But we have a system with three physical and three mental stats, so Wisdom is what it is.

[Naanomi]

I agree it is is mostly perception and awareness of various types in this edition; with lots of magic saves being resisted by being aware it is effecting you in time to do something about it in the first place. There is still a small tough of its original role as ‘willpower’ here and there, but as mentioned above much of that has moved to Charisma

[strangebloke]

In other terms, you can say that Wisdom represents the mental faculty of synthesis, which is taking different things/inputs and putting together something from those inputs. That's a way to describe the intuition, perception, and awareness bits of the stat.

The Insight ability check takes cues from, for example, tone of voice, expression, body language, and what's being said to give the person making the check an idea of what's really going on during this conversation.

Another way to look at this is in trying to piece together a puzzle from parts that you've never seen together before.

Very eloquent way of putting it, but I'd add this: we call old people wise, and with good reason.

A veteran salesperson can tell whether the customer is going to buy the car or not. Not because of any specific cue, but because they know people and they know what a guy about to buy looks like. That's insight.

A blooded warrior is more wary, and therefore is going to be more on his guard. That's perception.

An old man isn't going to lose his heart so easily, whether to a woman or a car or a cause. The glitzy lights don't faze him as much anymore. He's more self aware. There's your wisdom save.

Some old people never gain wisdom, and some kids are born old men. But that's a frame of reference for what wisdom means in DND.

Tldr: WIS is awareness, both of yourself and of others.

[Tanarii]

Despite what the PHB says in the intro, Wisdom does not directly give you good judgement, mechanically. It gives you tools which can help you make good decisions as a player, through intuition/gut feeling, awareness, etc. But so does Intelligence, through deductive ability and providing you with additional Lore information. But good judgement is still dependent on your decisions as a player.

IMO this is a good thing. Ability Checks should be tools that support (or fail to support) player decision making. Knowing your character will be good or bad at something certainly will drive decisions made as a player, and information gathered through them will affect it. But it shouldn't replace it.

[1Pirate]

The old red box Basic edition described Wisdom as your “common sense”. It illustrated this with an example that went something like “you feel a raindrop on your arm. Your Intelligence tells you it’s about to start raining. Your Wisdom tells you to go inside if you don’t want to get wet.”

[Anonymouswizard]

I tend towards interpreting it as intuition and inductive reasoning (Intelligence would be deductive reasoning). But in all honesty you can make a decent case for dropping almost every D&D Ability or merging them together.

D&D has three physical abilities, two mental abilities, and one social ability. If we focus on the dungeon and exploration aspects of D&D we can just fold the social ability into the mental ones (you can roughly split the skills between Int and Wis in a way that works). If we deemphasise combat and physical obstacles we could fold all three physical ability scores together (as some games do). In many ways the only reason modern D&D has two mental ability scores is to separate perception and cleric casting array from knowledge and wizard casting.

Actually, take the Wisdom skills, give Perception and Medicine to Intelligence and the rest to Charisma, and just remove Wisdom from the game, and you sort of end up with a better balanced set of stats. Most Wisdom saves translate to Charisma, which gives a good reason to want it, while Perception gives players a train to want Int. Clerics can cast off Charisma, Druids Intelligence, and we can move a Cha caster or two to Int (I recommend the Bard).

[Tetrasodium]

Strength is being able to crush a tomato.
Dexterity is being able to dodge a thrown tomato. it's also being able to throw it.
Constitution is being able to eat a bad tomato.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad.

It's honestly kind of a mess because in the real world intelligence and wisdom typically have some relation to each other. In d&d wisdom is the stat you use for wisdom saves, perception, most divine casting(cleric/druid/ranger/nit not paladin), & well... plus the skills related to those classes: survival, medicine, & animal handling.

In my game I also use it for faith/strong emotion (in anything not just divine) you might have failed your con save for the forces march & exhaustion, but your strong desire to avenge the tortured & murdered orphans allows you to ignore it because you did rally well on that (just an easy context free example). The other thing I add to wisdom is being able to "feel" & intuit things about magical energies (ie wards/traps/magic items/etc) for non-arcana having folks... you might not know much about the magic doodad, but it might le you feel things like "elemental energies feel like they are involved with the wand"[ie wand of fireball/acid splash/ray of frost], "it feels like the amulet somehow interacts with the heartiness of its wearer, but you don't get much more"[ie amulet of protection from poison/any that bump constitution/etc], "you aren't really sure what the trap does, but you can feel a massive amount of arcane energies that make the hair on your arms stand on end"[ie.. it will disintegrate you, fireball the room, etc], "you feel like the trap might be a relatively harmless effect but aren't quite sure how it works"[casts faery fire on you/suggestion:Leave, suggestion:announce your intention, etc] as a few examples

[Anonymouswizard]

This is why I've come to like three stat 'brains/beauty/brawn' systems, because most divisions of mental stats are arbitrary, the physical stats are all interrelated in real life (you can have low dexterity and high strength for example, but you'll generally get better at all three at once unless you're starting to get to 'muscles restrict movement', and most games don't bother having more than one value for social skills anyway. Rolling stats into a simple set of three makes 'what attribute do I use' so much simpler.

[Naanomi]

A tomato based fruit salad is just salsa right?

[GooeyChewie]

A high-Int low-Wis person might hear that it’s freezing outside and go into a long-winded discussion about how “freezing” means a particular temperature assuming a standard 1 ATM of barometric pressure and how incorrect you are to call the current 2°C “freezing”… and promptly forget his or her coat. A low-Int High-Wis person will have no idea what that other person was talking about, but knows you mean to wear bundle up!

I think Perception checks are based on Wisdom not because Wisdom actually makes you see/hear/smell better, but because higher Wisdom means you realize something is important when you see/hear/smell it.

[Kane0]

Intuition, but the INT shorthand was already taken so they had to break out the thesaurus.

[Tetrasodium]

A tomato based fruit salad is just salsa right?

Hey Guys! I found the bard! :biggrin:

[Ninja_Prawn]

A high-Int low-Wis person might hear that it’s freezing outside and go into a long-winded discussion about how “freezing” means a particular temperature

To be fair, that distinction does matter sometimes. I'm an M&E engineer IRL, and we recently had some problems with the control system in one of our buildings that caused the cooling coil in the air handling unit to literally freeze up. We fixed it, then a week later the occupants of the building called up complaining that "it's freezing again." We rushed over, wondering what had gone wrong this time, only to find that it was not, in fact, freezing, but that their complaint was that the air temperature had dropped to 16 degrees. Because someone had accidentally turned the heating off. :smallsigh:

[sir_argo]

An intelligent man sits down to study a cobra. A wise man leaves it alone.

[Anonymouswizard]

When the wise man is bitten in his sleep the intelligent man gives him the antidote he just invented.

Okay, seriously, why is Medicine based on Wisdom? Knowledge of how to identify treat wounds and diseases sounds like it would be linked to knowledge and logic rather than intuition? Sure, noticing that there's a problem and what the symptoms are fits more with Wisdom, but don't we already have a skill for noticing important stuff? Is it literally a case of 'clerics heal people, and are based off Wisdom, therefore nonmagical healing should be as well'?

[Naanomi]

The best argument for medicine being wisdom for me is that post-industrial medicine is Intelligence, but pre-industrial medicine is a lot more intuition and guesswork, the provinces of Wisdom

[Luccan]

I've long wanted to distinguish the traditional senses from other stats, because yeah, Wisdom controls Perception. But for some reason that has no influence on your aim, which is governed by Dex. Except when it's governed by Strength. I really think a Perception stat would benefit the verisimilitude of the game, but would require a significant reworking of the game itself.

And Wisdom being, essentially, a person's will is a bit annoying, but changing the saves on certain spells would be relatively easy (in this edition).

I think Insight makes sense, it's about how well you understand people on an empathetic level. Which a wiser person could, presumably, do. I can somewhat justify Medicine and Animal Handling, though I do think they should usually be Int and Cha, personally.

As for Cleric and Druid casting? I guess it represents their instinctual understanding of the forces they serve? Honestly, I'm not sure what other stat I would use for (essentially) priest casting. At least not in most games, where their power usually comes from indisputably real gods or the essence of nature empowering them. They don't derive their power via force of personality or understanding of the laws of magic, so Cha and Int don't really make sense (I assume Warlock's use Cha because their deals give them access to magic, but it is their personal will that directs it).

[2D8HP]

Dictionary "Wisdom" has lots of meanings, but is often synonymous with "knowledge".

5e WD&D "Wisdom" mostly means "paying attention".

As an aside, for me wisdom came when I realized that what most Playgrounders mean by "previous editions of D&D" did not include the D&D I actually played, but instead they meant "other editions of WotC D&D", and only sonetimes '80's and '90's rules AD&D and D&D, and that to most the '70's rules D&D and AD&D I played didn't exist.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Re Medicine: I think there's room for both Wisdom (Medicine) and Intelligence (Medicine) in the game.

Wisdom (Medicine) is mostly for applied treatment. It leans on the intuition and empathy parts of Wisdom for dealing with the patient, and the judgement and awareness aspects for rendering treatment. Having a strong Wisdom score also implies that you'd be better at triage - especially where you have to make a split-second call as to which injury needs treating first to save the patient's life.

Anything that could be described as "more art than science" is going to need Wisdom. A wise character would be able to judge when a placebo might be useful for example, and would almost certainly be a better psychologist/therapist.

Intelligence (Medicine) is about knowing the lore and, where appropriate, the chemistry. Being able to list the symptoms of a disease, name every bone in the body, or remember the recipe for a healing potion would all be Intelligence-based tasks. Intelligent characters are problem-solvers, so they might be better at piecing together a strange set of symptoms in order to deduce what the underlying cause might be.

[2D8HP]

Re Medicine: I think there's room for both Wisdom (Medicine) and Intelligence (Medicine) in the game.

Wisdom (Medicine) is mostly for applied treatment...

Intelligence (Medicine) is about knowing the lore ....
.....


So like Nature and Survival?

That could work!

[Luccan]

Re Medicine: I think there's room for both Wisdom (Medicine) and Intelligence (Medicine) in the game.

Wisdom (Medicine) is mostly for applied treatment. It leans on the intuition and empathy parts of Wisdom for dealing with the patient, and the judgement and awareness aspects for rendering treatment. Having a strong Wisdom score also implies that you'd be better at triage - especially where you have to make a split-second call as to which injury needs treating first to save the patient's life.

Anything that could be described as "more art than science" is going to need Wisdom. A wise character would be able to judge when a placebo might be useful for example, and would almost certainly be a better psychologist/therapist.

Intelligence (Medicine) is about knowing the lore and, where appropriate, the chemistry. Being able to list the symptoms of a disease, name every bone in the body, or remember the recipe for a healing potion would all be Intelligence-based tasks. Intelligent characters are problem-solvers, so they might be better at piecing together a strange set of symptoms in order to deduce what the underlying cause might be.

In this, 5e has an advantage, since you can explicitly tie skill checks to the stats you feel are appropriate.

[Anonymouswizard]

In this, 5e has an advantage, since you can explicitly tie skill checks to the stats you feel are appropriate.

That was a rule in 3.X as well. Why do people act as if 5e pioneered this stiff when both previous WotC editions and other games have done this before, with explicit notes that yes, it's okay to roll Strength (Arcana) if it fits the situation.

But really of we're going this far, World of Darkness has three advantage in this. Skills aren't tied to stats at all, so there's no default to influence what you call for. Manipulation+Medicine for convincing somebody to get treatment? Sure!

[Sigreid]

The best argument for medicine being wisdom for me is that post-industrial medicine is Intelligence, but pre-industrial medicine is a lot more intuition and guesswork, the provinces of Wisdom

I'd argue that now days medicine is also taking what you know and guessing what to do.

That aside to me wisdom has always meant your awareness of the world/cosmos and your place in it. The intelligent man understands the world around him through logic and math. The wise man feels how it flows.

Edit: The intelligent man knows that poisonous snakes hide under rocks when it gets to hot. The wise man feels that it's hot enough if I were a poisonous snake I'd hide under a rock.

[SaurOps]

Intuition, but the INT shorthand was already taken so they had to break out the thesaurus.

Well, Intuition and Willpower, according to PO: Skills and Powers.


An intelligent man sits down to study a cobra. A wise man leaves it alone.

No, the wise give the cobra water (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n9tx4fXzRY) so their prey doesn't go out of control after the drought ends.

[LeonBH]

Wisdom is just an ability score in this game that doesn't have a direct translation to reality.

It governs spellcasting for several classes (Cleric, Druid, Ranger), used for AC in another class (Monk), it is used in several skills (Perception, Medicine, Insight, Animal Handling, Survival), and it is one of the most common saving throws for monsters to be proficient with and for spells to induce a saving throw for.

Of course, in reality, a person you might regard as wise, such as a wise old man, won't necessarily be better than you at hunting wild game or controlling a mount. And being wise certainly doesn't make real life monks harder to injure - that's their athleticism and training at work (for the martial arts-practicing ones).

There's nothing in real life that points to "Wisdom" as an attribute independent from, say, "Intelligence". It's a fictional divide. Indeed, some people are wise about some things, but less about others. Think parents with good intentions alienating their kids (low Wisdom), but are successful at their jobs as medical professionals. A trained doctor who is good at his job and is a great parent doesn't mean they're better at first aid than the trained doctor who is good at his job and is a bad parent.

But as advertised in the game, it's the measure of how attuned a character is to their environment, and how intuitive a person is. I prefer to just let the stat be refluffed to my/the player's needs though.

[Luccan]

That was a rule in 3.X as well. Why do people act as if 5e pioneered this stiff when both previous WotC editions and other games have done this before, with explicit notes that yes, it's okay to roll Strength (Arcana) if it fits the situation.

But really of we're going this far, World of Darkness has three advantage in this. Skills aren't tied to stats at all, so there's no default to influence what you call for. Manipulation+Medicine for convincing somebody to get treatment? Sure!

I will admit, I thought 5e "pioneered" (and by that I mean, brought it in to D&D) it because in the years I have played 3.X, I've never heard of this.

I'm also fine with skills being tied with stats, for the most part, as long as the stat/skill correlation makes sense in most cases.

[Whit]

It’s a lot of things int h book and some I don’t agree with which should be another stats

I know smoking is bad for me Intelligence.
I can’t stop smoking low Wisdom

I know stealing is wrong. Intelligence
But I really want it so I take it

These beans are magical, trust me.
Hmm, my gut says he’s lying and I see his eyes shifting and a bead of sweat..
S

[No brains]

Wisdom is just an ability score in this game that doesn't have a direct translation to reality.

It governs spellcasting for several classes (Cleric, Druid, Ranger), used for AC in another class (Monk), it is used in several skills (Perception, Medicine, Insight, Animal Handling, Survival), and it is one of the most common saving throws for monsters to be proficient with and for spells to induce a saving throw for.

Of course, in reality, a person you might regard as wise, such as a wise old man, won't necessarily be better than you at hunting wild game or controlling a mount. And being wise certainly doesn't make real life monks harder to injure - that's their athleticism and training at work (for the martial arts-practicing ones).

There's nothing in real life that points to "Wisdom" as an attribute independent from, say, "Intelligence". It's a fictional divide. Indeed, some people are wise about some things, but less about others. Think parents with good intentions alienating their kids (low Wisdom), but are successful at their jobs as medical professionals. A trained doctor who is good at his job and is a great parent doesn't mean they're better at first aid than the trained doctor who is good at his job and is a bad parent.

But as advertised in the game, it's the measure of how attuned a character is to their environment, and how intuitive a person is. I prefer to just let the stat be refluffed to my/the player's needs though.

Regarding a doctor being a bad parent, it is dangerously reductionist to say that the ability to parent well is equivalent to just one skill, or even just natural talent. While it is true that any pursuit could be granulated many times, parenting is a Priscus Vs Verus marathon of opposed checks at its simplest. No one talent of a person is going to make them effective for every situation that can pop up when they live with a curious and vulnerable person. Only one thing in D&D may accurately model parenting: being the DM.

[2D8HP]

Regarding a doctor being a bad parent, it is dangerously reductionist to say that the ability to parent well is equivalent to just one skill, or even just natural talent. While it is true that any pursuit could be granulated many times, parenting is a Priscus Vs Verus marathon of opposed checks at its simplest. No one talent of a person is going to make them effective for every situation that can pop up when they live with a curious and vulnerable person. Only one thing in D&D may accurately model parenting: being the DM.


Too long to Sig, but absolutely Sig-worthy!

[Wisefool]

Not to mention it's the basis for Medicine and Survival, which both sound more Intelligence to me, and Animal Handling, which seems at least vaguely Charisma (though I'm on the fence about that)

This is slightly off topic, but I felt it deserved mentioning:

You should note that skill checks in 5e are not hard-wired to the specific stat they are tied with. For example, if your low CHA brutish character needs to make a Performance, he could decide to wow the crowd with a feat of strength- 5e allows him to swap his low CHA mod for his better STR mod. Another example, you could switch Animal Handling from WIS to CHA if your character decides to soothe her mount by singing to it. In my game, my character uses CON instead of CHA for his bone horn proficiency because he uses the horn for signaling rather than making music and being long winded is more important in that regard.

Of course, this does require DM approval, but as long as you have sound reasoning for switching the stat, you should be good.

[LeonBH]

Regarding a doctor being a bad parent, it is dangerously reductionist to say that the ability to parent well is equivalent to just one skill, or even just natural talent. While it is true that any pursuit could be granulated many times, parenting is a Priscus Vs Verus marathon of opposed checks at its simplest. No one talent of a person is going to make them effective for every situation that can pop up when they live with a curious and vulnerable person. Only one thing in D&D may accurately model parenting: being the DM.

While I understand where you're coming from, you can just as easily replace parenting with any activity you can tie to any generic Wisdom check as defined in 5e, and the statement will still hold true.

I was just using parenting as an example that you could reasonably tie to both in-game and out-of-game scenarios (and ground the examples in a way that is both closer to home and "realistic" - as far as realism exists in a game, anyway).

[FreddyNoNose]

From 1st ed phb: Wisdom is a composite term for the character’s enlightenment,
judgement, wile, will power, and (to a certain extent) intuitiveness.

[Spacehamster]

This is one I've been grappling with for a little while.

The other five ability scores are more or less self-explanatory. Strength = ability to move heavy things and hit hard. Dexterity = ability to move with precision and grace. Constitution = all sorts of toughness (both taking hits and not getting diseases). Intelligence = knowing things and logic-ing. Charisma = having a compelling, magnetic personality. All of those are simplifications, mind you, but they cover the basic idea.

I can't even manage a simplified explanation for Wisdom. The name suggests good decision-making skills or life experience. It's also the basis for Perception and Insight, skills related to noticing and understanding things. Yet it's also the basis for saves based on willpower and resisting being controlled. Not to mention it's the basis for Medicine and Survival, which both sound more Intelligence to me, and Animal Handling, which seems at least vaguely Charisma (though I'm on the fence about that).

EDIT: And it's also the basis for Cleric spellcasting, on the rationale that it's the ability to intuit one's deity's will and intentions. So basically Insight, which I kind of understand.

So what would you all say Wisdom is, exactly? As a corollary, what does playing a character with high or low Wisdom mean?

Perception, common sense and realizing consequenses of actions which a smart low wis dude might not realize.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've thought that Wisdom saves are often related to seeing things as they really are. Take hold person. Why is the person paralyzed if they fail? Not because they're being held in place by some magical chains (that'd be restrained). No, the spell convinces the subconscious mind that the body is paralyzed. It's also why it can't miss--you're talking to the person's mind and soul. A Wisdom save lets the conscious mind override the subconscious suggestion by realizing that it's only in the mind.

Intelligence saves/checks are to figure things out or to remember information--to find flaws in an illusion, to remember who you are (feeblemind), or any of the INT-based skills/checks.

Wisdom saves/checks are to see reality for what it is (a sense of other). Most WIS-saves rely on the mind hurting itself instead of dealing direct damage.

Charisma saves are to maintain your sense of self. "I am me, and I am here." These resist plane-shifting or exclusion effects, mostly.

It's not a perfect division, but it's close enough. There's enough separation to justify keeping that sacred bovine around.

[LeonBH]

I've thought that Wisdom saves are often related to seeing things as they really are. Take hold person. Why is the person paralyzed if they fail? Not because they're being held in place by some magical chains (that'd be restrained). No, the spell convinces the subconscious mind that the body is paralyzed. It's also why it can't miss--you're talking to the person's mind and soul. A Wisdom save lets the conscious mind override the subconscious suggestion by realizing that it's only in the mind.

Intelligence saves/checks are to figure things out or to remember information--to find flaws in an illusion, to remember who you are (feeblemind), or any of the INT-based skills/checks.

Wisdom saves/checks are to see reality for what it is (a sense of other). Most WIS-saves rely on the mind hurting itself instead of dealing direct damage.

Charisma saves are to maintain your sense of self. "I am me, and I am here." These resist plane-shifting or exclusion effects, mostly.

It's not a perfect division, but it's close enough. There's enough separation to justify keeping that sacred bovine around.

Interesting perspective, though there are significant outliers worth mentioning.

Polymorph, Mass Polymorph, and True Polymorph all force a Wisdom saving throw or physically convert the body into another form. This is no longer in the realm of "see what is there" but is straight up resisting a magical effect on the body.

Bane forces a Charisma saving throw, which just imposes a 1d4 penalty to all saves and all attack rolls (an effect unrelated to Charisma at all). There's a weak argument to be made that the spell attacks the target's confidence, but it's not compelling when you factor in that the spell only targets attack rolls and saves but not Charisma-based ability checks.

And finally, Contact Other Plane forces an Intelligence saving throw or else suffer from insanity - and insanity is one of those things that are in the arena of "sense of self." That should really be a Charisma save.

Anyway, I think the mental ability scores are nice abstractions, and most spells follow the theme I think. But I think there was more an effort to cause most spells to force Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution saving throws over Intelligence, Strength, and Charisma, as a sort of "major save vs minor save" divide, even if the specific flavor of the spells themselves didn't match the ability score used. Having the "major save" vs "minor save" helps with the design of each class, as all classes have exactly one proficient save from the (Wis, Dex, Con) pool, and one from the (Int, Str, Cha) pool at level 1. So in the end, it was a balance/mechanical game design implement rather than a narrative tool.

[Lombra]

I think it represents common sense.

[Throne12]

This is one I've been grappling with for a little while.

The other five ability scores are more or less self-explanatory. Strength = ability to move heavy things and hit hard. Dexterity = ability to move with precision and grace. Constitution = all sorts of toughness (both taking hits and not getting diseases). Intelligence = knowing things and logic-ing. Charisma = having a compelling, magnetic personality. All of those are simplifications, mind you, but they cover the basic idea.

I can't even manage a simplified explanation for Wisdom. The name suggests good decision-making skills or life experience. It's also the basis for Perception and Insight, skills related to noticing and understanding things. Yet it's also the basis for saves based on willpower and resisting being controlled. Not to mention it's the basis for Medicine and Survival, which both sound more Intelligence to me, and Animal Handling, which seems at least vaguely Charisma (though I'm on the fence about that).

EDIT: And it's also the basis for Cleric spellcasting, on the rationale that it's the ability to intuit one's deity's will and intentions. So basically Insight, which I kind of understand.

So what would you all say Wisdom is, exactly? As a corollary, what does playing a character with high or low Wisdom mean?

2 words common sense.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Interesting perspective, though there are significant outliers worth mentioning.

Polymorph, Mass Polymorph, and True Polymorph all force a Wisdom saving throw or physically convert the body into another form. This is no longer in the realm of "see what is there" but is straight up resisting a magical effect on the body.

Bane forces a Charisma saving throw, which just imposes a 1d4 penalty to all saves and all attack rolls (an effect unrelated to Charisma at all). There's a weak argument to be made that the spell attacks the target's confidence, but it's not compelling when you factor in that the spell only targets attack rolls and saves but not Charisma-based ability checks.

And finally, Contact Other Plane forces an Intelligence saving throw or else suffer from insanity - and insanity is one of those things that are in the arena of "sense of self." That should really be a Charisma save.

Anyway, I think the mental ability scores are nice abstractions, and most spells follow the theme I think. But I think there was more an effort to cause most spells to force Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution saving throws over Intelligence, Strength, and Charisma, as a sort of "major save vs minor save" divide, even if the specific flavor of the spells themselves didn't match the ability score used. Having the "major save" vs "minor save" helps with the design of each class, as all classes have exactly one proficient save from the (Wis, Dex, Con) pool, and one from the (Int, Str, Cha) pool at level 1. So in the end, it was a balance/mechanical game design implement rather than a narrative tool.

Polymorph effects have a long history of being mind over matter. See Discworld's Morphic Field (a cat is transformed into a human by being convinced that it really is one) and (at least the animated) Sword in the Stone where transforming is all about having the right mindset. So that one is within bounds, for me.

Yeah, Bane is an outlier. That's why I said it was a rough division.

Contact other Plane I see as flooding the mind with information. So much so that it takes an effort to categorize/dump/etc that information in a way that doesn't leave your intellect broken for a while. That is, it attacks the intellect directly, not the sense of self or the sense of others.

I think that it was both thematic/narrative and balance related. There's enough thematic cover so the balance isn't in-your-face (like it was in 4e, where they didn't even really make an attempt to cover up the balance-oriented aspects). At the same time, there's lots of well-designed thematic elements in 5e. As I look deeper, I keep seeing more and more harmonious aspects (as opposed to the dissonance that people claim).

[Asmotherion]

Well, Intuition and Willpower, according to PO: Skills and Powers.



No, the wise give the cobra water (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n9tx4fXzRY) so their prey doesn't go out of control after the drought ends.

I disagree with this; Wile it was tied with will saves in the past (3.5), Wisdom in 5e represents your perception over things; Perception of the Meterial world around you (including all your 5 sences), Perception of the meaning of the words people tell you, and the intention behind them (insight), The ability to understand the intentions of animals and comunicate with them through studying their behaviour and adapting to it (animal handling), The careful study of to treat wounds and other conditions, and the application of it (healing), And finally other knowlages and skills one starts to develop by adapting to one's suroundings and making the most of them.

Overall, I would say Wisdom has to do with Patiance and Adaptability.

Charisma is more the ability to Influence people Directly or Indirectly, thus it it more the "Willpower" than Wisdom". Wisdom on the other hand is mostly the ability to not being influenced yourself. This Dichotomy makes rules a bit weird, yet understandable.

[LeonBH]

Polymorph effects have a long history of being mind over matter. See Discworld's Morphic Field (a cat is transformed into a human by being convinced that it really is one) and (at least the animated) Sword in the Stone where transforming is all about having the right mindset. So that one is within bounds, for me.

Yeah, Bane is an outlier. That's why I said it was a rough division.

Contact other Plane I see as flooding the mind with information. So much so that it takes an effort to categorize/dump/etc that information in a way that doesn't leave your intellect broken for a while. That is, it attacks the intellect directly, not the sense of self or the sense of others.

I think that it was both thematic/narrative and balance related. There's enough thematic cover so the balance isn't in-your-face (like it was in 4e, where they didn't even really make an attempt to cover up the balance-oriented aspects). At the same time, there's lots of well-designed thematic elements in 5e. As I look deeper, I keep seeing more and more harmonious aspects (as opposed to the dissonance that people claim).

Nonetheless, "mind over matter" doesn't zero in on Wisdom specifically. It could be Charisma or Intelligence depending on your take on the ability scores. Anyway, convincing someone's mind that they are a cat is a persuasion (and thus Charisma) related effect, whereas having the right mindset could be any one of the three mental stats.

As for Contact Other Plane, it is the act of contacting the deity that breaks the mind, rather than the information gotten from them. I say this because you don't get to ask any information until after passing the save, and even when you pass, you can only get the answers to 5 questions answerable by "yes", "no", "maybe" or related answers - hardly mind-breaking stuff. So it's hard to justify it as attacking the intellect, especially when it creates no penalties on Intelligence skills or saves. But this is fluff and not crunch, so I advocate interpreting it as you will, to each player according to their own need of narrative.

I think that while the theme/narrative and balance elements are definitely present, balance was slightly more prioritized than theme/narrative. There are definitely many basic things that aren't well-explained by translating the crunch into fluff - for example, the division of casting stats into Int, Wis, and Cha. It makes sense for some, like Int for the Wizard and Cha for the Sorcerer; but it doesn't make sense for Warlocks who are described as seekers of knowledge.

On the topic of "what do Wisdom saves represent?", they take the place of Will saves (roughly, as you said). But I think some spells would have been better represented by other ability scores than Wisdom, or that other ability scores could have equally represented resistance to that spell as Wisdom. I suspect that when there was more than one viable candidate for a saving throw stat (ex., Wisdom, Charisma, Intelligence), it was a numbers decision of which one to choose so as to maintain a majority of Wisdom saves and a minority of the other two. But that's just my speculation.

[Pronounceable]

DnD's mental stats are simply terrible and gotta gtfo. Redo them as mind strength, mind dexterity and mind constitution to get something logical and functional.

[Coffee_Dragon]

https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/15938453/what-are-birds.jpg

[Naanomi]

INT seems to have taken the roll of ‘stop your mind from breaking’; not only in Contact spells but also in most of the XGtE ‘Psychic damage spells’

[No brains]

Too long to Sig, but absolutely Sig-worthy!

Aw, thank you. I wouldn't mind if anyone who wanted to sig this chopped it down or used an extended signature. As long as it's got the link box, people can see the original.:smallsmile:


While I understand where you're coming from, you can just as easily replace parenting with any activity you can tie to any generic Wisdom check as defined in 5e, and the statement will still hold true.

I was just using parenting as an example that you could reasonably tie to both in-game and out-of-game scenarios (and ground the examples in a way that is both closer to home and "realistic" - as far as realism exists in a game, anyway).

I don't want to take this too far off topic since I'm making a case that I regard as not relevant to Wisdom alone, but parenting is a huge and complex undertaking that probably takes all ability scores combined and probably can't be done with proficiency. I'll post more elaborate thoughts if people request them.

On topic, I think that a doctor's environment may actually be more relevant to the success of their checks than just their Wisdom (or maybe Intelligence) score. Even if we drastically reduce the comparative convenience of a well-stocked hospital with relevant information readily available to Advantage, that still works out to +5 to any given Medicine check. Also a case could be made that completing medical school gives a doctor Expertise in Medicine, allowing them to add +4 to their check. Their ability score ends up accounting for only around a third of their success if they are exceptional.

There's a lot of room in circumstances beyond Wisdom for a competent doctor to be a foolish parent. It's very difficult to strip both parenting and doctoring from their non-Wisdom aspects. If we want to talk about ability scores, it would probably be better to compare tasks that can be done on talent alone, like "Look, a bird in that tree."(Wisdom) vs "Can you tell if that bird eats rabbits?"(Intelligence).

[Feuerphoenix]

For me, wisdom was a writing mistake, and was actually called Willpower. Because that is what it is. It is about keeping your focus in battle, when a dragon is staying in front of you. It is your willpower to resist the mind techniques of an illusionist, it as all about willpower.

[LeonBH]

I don't want to take this too far off topic since I'm making a case that I regard as not relevant to Wisdom alone, but parenting is a huge and complex undertaking that probably takes all ability scores combined and probably can't be done with proficiency. I'll post more elaborate thoughts if people request them.

On topic, I think that a doctor's environment may actually be more relevant to the success of their checks than just their Wisdom (or maybe Intelligence) score. Even if we drastically reduce the comparative convenience of a well-stocked hospital with relevant information readily available to Advantage, that still works out to +5 to any given Medicine check. Also a case could be made that completing medical school gives a doctor Expertise in Medicine, allowing them to add +4 to their check. Their ability score ends up accounting for only around a third of their success if they are exceptional.

There's a lot of room in circumstances beyond Wisdom for a competent doctor to be a foolish parent. It's very difficult to strip both parenting and doctoring from their non-Wisdom aspects. If we want to talk about ability scores, it would probably be better to compare tasks that can be done on talent alone, like "Look, a bird in that tree."(Wisdom) vs "Can you tell if that bird eats rabbits?"(Intelligence).

You're making too big a deal out of the example while missing the illustration. The task at hand is first aid, not surgery, so unless the "hospital" is just a house, we can assume that any hospital in this example will be equipped enough for first aid.

The two people to compare are two doctors who are both trained, but one is bad at a generic Wisdom-related activity (generic in the sense that you cannot be proficient in it; that indicates being good at it can only be done through a high ability score instead of training) and the other is good at it.

I chose parenting. And yes, obviously, it's a combination of multiple activities that Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma don't even cover - but this is an example and it is intuitive to me. You can replace that as you wish. The end result is still that it doesn't make sense that the one who is good at the generic Wisdom-related activity is better than his colleague only because of how good he is at that unrelated-to-medicine, generic Wisdom-related skill.

In the example I gave, it's just because one is a better parent, doesn't make them a better doctor. But in your example, it's just because one is better at spotting birds in trees doesn't make them a better doctor. The point is that we have a case where a high Wisdom implies two things to be connected - be good at medicine and be good at spotting birds in trees, implying talent in one area is evidence of talent in the other - even if those two things don't come hand in hand; and thus Wisdom doesn't really represent all its abilities adequately in a narrative sense, though it fills its mechanical functions well.

[Tanarii]

PCs with the Medicine skill proficiency aren't doctors. They're adventurers. Doctors are NPCs and resolution of their activities is up to the DM.

[LeonBH]

PCs with the Medicine skill proficiency aren't doctors. They're adventurers. Doctors are NPCs and resolution of their activities is up to the DM.

You can have two PCs whose background were doctors/medics who decided to pick up the mantle of an adventurer. It doesn't really change the argument. You can still compare two doctors (who are now PCs, in this case) and their relative skills at first aid.

[Tanarii]

You can have two PCs whose background were doctors/medics who decided to pick up the mantle of an adventurer. It doesn't really change the argument.
Eh, it's a tool for resolution. And depending on Wis for stabilizing (ie First Aid) is fine. But I personally wouldn't object if a DM stated they were going to make diagnosing an illness or poising or whatever an Intelligence (Medicine) check instead. Just so long as I knew when I made my character.

[LeonBH]

Eh, it's a tool for resolution. And depending on Wis for stabilizing (ie First Aid) is fine. But I personally wouldn't object if a DM stated they were going to make diagnosing an illness or poising or whatever an Intelligence (Medicine) check instead. Just so long as I knew when I made my character.

Sure. I agree Wisdom and Intelligence are useful as mechanics. You can resolve issues using them, and both fill their mechanical roles well. I was just pointing out that the answer to the question "What is Wisdom?" is that Wisdom is just an ability score; you can't really define it in terms of a real world parallel because the things its connected to are disjoint.

There's nothing in real life (which is the context of the question of the OP - how to interpret an ability score) that points to "Wisdom" as an attribute independent from, say, "Intelligence". It's a fictional divide.

[strangebloke]

Wisdom is just an ability score in this game that doesn't have a direct translation to reality.

It governs spellcasting for several classes (Cleric, Druid, Ranger), used for AC in another class (Monk), it is used in several skills (Perception, Medicine, Insight, Animal Handling, Survival), and it is one of the most common saving throws for monsters to be proficient with and for spells to induce a saving throw for.

Of course, in reality, a person you might regard as wise, such as a wise old man, won't necessarily be better than you at hunting wild game or controlling a mount. And being wise certainly doesn't make real life monks harder to injure - that's their athleticism and training at work (for the martial arts-practicing ones).

There's nothing in real life that points to "Wisdom" as an attribute independent from, say, "Intelligence". It's a fictional divide. Indeed, some people are wise about some things, but less about others. Think parents with good intentions alienating their kids (low Wisdom), but are successful at their jobs as medical professionals. A trained doctor who is good at his job and is a great parent doesn't mean they're better at first aid than the trained doctor who is good at his job and is a bad parent.

But as advertised in the game, it's the measure of how attuned a character is to their environment, and how intuitive a person is. I prefer to just let the stat be refluffed to my/the player's needs though.

As with STR/DEX, the lines are not as clear as we'd like.

However, you're confusing proficiency with ability in all these examples.

That wise old man is going to be (on average) much better at befriending a dog than a foolish preteen would be, assuming that both were familiar with dogs but hadn't studied them. The old guy is more aware of how a dog thinks by virtue of greater experience. If the preteen worked at a shelter for dogs, he'd probably be better than the old man. The wise old man who's been volunteering at the shelter for years probably knows more than either.

Real life monks aren't actually manipulating life forces to make themselves more resilient, so no, their WIS isn't what makes them tough. However, in DND they do, and it does make them stronger. WIS is here a proxy for 'self-awareness,' something that isn't well-modeled by either CHA or INT.

DnD isn't designed to simulate characters like 'doctors' but if you built one, he'd probably be a rogue with decent WIS and INT and expertise in medicine. He may or may not have insight, which is the only skill that's remotely applicable to raising a kid. If he does, his bonuses to medicine might still be smaller than another trained doctor who doesn't have proficiency in insight.

As to all the magic interactions, your understanding of the ability scores should inform your understanding of the spells, and not the other way around. If Polymorph has a WIS save, that says how one goes about resisting Polymorph. You recognize the outside force acting upon your mind (since you are, as a wise person, more aware of your own mind) and stop it from turning you into something that you're not.

[Anonymouswizard]

I will admit, I thought 5e "pioneered" (and by that I mean, brought it in to D&D) it because in the years I have played 3.X, I've never heard of this.

I'm also fine with skills being tied with stats, for the most part, as long as the stat/skill correlation makes sense in most cases.

The 3.X rule was in a sidebar in the DMG. Can't pull out the page because I no longer have the book. 5e's version isn't much better signposted seeing as I read the beginning of the 'ability checks' section and couldn't find it (although that might have just been me being in a bit of a rush).


DnD's mental stats are simply terrible and gotta gtfo. Redo them as mind strength, mind dexterity and mind constitution to get something logical and functional.

Or we could just collapse stats. Nothing wrong with having less than six.


PCs with the Medicine skill proficiency aren't doctors. They're adventurers. Doctors are NPCs and resolution of their activities is up to the DM.

Unless the PC is a doctor.

Now, in game terms, it's more important that the medicine skill has a default Ability than what that ability is.

[Tanarii]

The 3.X rule was in a sidebar in the DMG. Can't pull out the page because I no longer have the book. 5e's version isn't much better signposted seeing as I read the beginning of the 'ability checks' section and couldn't find it (although that might have just been me being in a bit of a rush).Variant ability scores for use with Skills for checks are a variany rule.


Unless the PC is a doctor.
I wouldnt be willing to play a character without an adventuring class who doesnt adventure, but more power to you.

[Luccan]

Variant ability scores for use with Skills for checks are a variany rule.


I wouldnt be willing to play a character without an adventuring class who doesnt adventure, but more power to you.

Surely, if one possesses the skills of a doctor, they're a doctor (particularly in D&D, where you don't need a medical license?). I'd be willing to say you might need expertise in a few skills or something, but why can't you be an adventurer who happens to also be a doctor? I've never fully understood the mindset that characters aren't allowed to be competent in non-adventuring fields, in addition to their adventuring skills.

[Squiddish]

For me, wisdom was a writing mistake, and was actually called Willpower. Because that is what it is. It is about keeping your focus in battle, when a dragon is staying in front of you. It is your willpower to resist the mind techniques of an illusionist, it as all about willpower.

That example works in a few places, but doesn't explain that wisdom is also used for perception and insight, or that charisma also typically takes the role of willpower.


Variant ability scores for use with Skills for checks are a variany rule.


I wouldnt be willing to play a character without an adventuring class who doesnt adventure, but more power to you.

Uh, you do realize someone can be a medical doctor without that being their career, and that it would be entirely possible for an adventurer with an adventuring class to be a doctor, right?

Build example: Rogue, with expertise in medicine, sneak attack comes from the knowledge of where and how to hit to inflict the maximum damage.

[Pex]

Strength is crushing the tomato.
Dexterity is dodging a thrown tomato.
Constitution is eating a lot of tomatoes in one sitting.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Charisma is chopping up a tomato into a fruit-like salad and call it salsa.

[Tanarii]

Surely, if one possesses the skills of a doctor, they're a doctor (particularly in D&D, where you don't need a medical license?). I'd be willing to say you might need expertise in a few skills or something, but why can't you be an adventurer who happens to also be a doctor? I've never fully understood the mindset that characters aren't allowed to be competent in non-adventuring fields, in addition to their adventuring skills.
It's a conceit of the 5e rules set.

[LeonBH]

That wise old man is going to be (on average) much better at befriending a dog than a foolish preteen would be, assuming that both were familiar with dogs but hadn't studied them. The old guy is more aware of how a dog thinks by virtue of greater experience. If the preteen worked at a shelter for dogs, he'd probably be better than the old man. The wise old man who's been volunteering at the shelter for years probably knows more than either.

But there is no reason why wise old men are better at befriending dogs than foolish preteens. That's not even a thing you can confidently claim is true in real life. Being a wise old man doesn't also make you the dog whisperer, neither individually nor on average.


DnD isn't designed to simulate characters like 'doctors' but if you built one, he'd probably be a rogue with decent WIS and INT and expertise in medicine. He may or may not have insight, which is the only skill that's remotely applicable to raising a kid. If he does, his bonuses to medicine might still be smaller than another trained doctor who doesn't have proficiency in insight.

Well, exactly. D&D isn't designed to simulate characters like doctors. You thus have shown that there are limitations to Wisdom in the system yourself but using a different example.


As to all the magic interactions, your understanding of the ability scores should inform your understanding of the spells, and not the other way around. If Polymorph has a WIS save, that says how one goes about resisting Polymorph. You recognize the outside force acting upon your mind (since you are, as a wise person, more aware of your own mind) and stop it from turning you into something that you're not.

In actuality, you aren't more aware of your own mind as a wise person. No mental ability score covers that area. Wisdom represents awareness of others and the surroundings. So it would be your understanding of others that you use to stop from preventing yourself from turning into an animal... which doesn't make a lot of sense.

The book does say Polymorph is Wisdom-based, true. But if Polymorph was a Strength-based save, or if Fireball was a Charisma-based save, you would be scratching your head as well as to their interpretation. What difference does a Charisma-save Fireball have over a Wisdom-save Fireball? What difference does a Strength-save Polymorph have over a Constitution-save Polymorph? And thus, why is Polymorph Wisdom, not Charisma or Intelligence? What does that saving throw represent?

[AureusFulgens]

O________O

You know, I feel like I've passed some sort of milestone on this forum by setting off a three-page debate.

I think I'm finding a lot of the arguments for "perceptiveness" or "awareness" fairly compelling? But the ability still does seem a little kitchen-sink-ish. I remember I got onto this line of thought when I realized that I, personally, would have fabulous Perception and great Wisdom saves but only passable Survival, terrible Insight and abysmal Animal Handling. And that all of those would be for different reasons. It really doesn't have a good real-world analogue.

[Caelic]

Intelligence is the ability to figure out how to make explosives from common household chemicals.

Wisdom is refraining from doing so.

[Tanarii]

But the ability still does seem a little kitchen-sink-ish.Oh yeah, definitely does feel that way. In fact with larger skill sets, all of the abilities can feel a little that way. BECMI's Gazateer or RC skills for example.

[Oerlaf]

In real life I am a typical high-Int, low-Wis person.

I can easily remember mathematical formulas and apply them very quickly, I can easily deduce solution to a problem that requires intelligent thinking. I can easily remember a quote from a book I read five years ago.

But I am very bad at understanding other people. I can hardly tell whether they're upset or pleasured. I can hardly notice non-verbal communications, and I can't even pay attention to it because I can't. I can't guess the people's mood. I can't analyze emotions which the people express.

[LeonBH]

In real life I am a typical high-Int, low-Wis person.

I can easily remember mathematical formulas and apply them very quickly, I can easily deduce solution to a problem that requires intelligent thinking. I can easily remember a quote from a book I read five years ago.

But I am very bad at understanding other people. I can hardly tell whether they're upset or pleasured. I can hardly notice non-verbal communications, and I can't even pay attention to it because I can't. I can't guess the people's mood. I can't analyze emotions which the people express.

That's not necessarily low wisdom (though it could be), but low sociability. You're not good with people, which should tie more into charisma than anything, but on the topic of wisdom, you don't have to be bad at dealing with people and also bad at everything else that is related to generic 5E Wisdom.

You say you're good at problem solving. Are you good at chess? That's certainly an activity we normally associate with intelligence. However, a lot of chess grandmasters play through intuition and "muscle memory," which 5E ties with wisdom.

[Oerlaf]

That's not necessarily low wisdom (though it could be), but low sociability. You're not good with people, which should tie more into charisma than anything, but on the topic of wisdom, you don't have to be bad at dealing with people and also bad at everything else that is related to generic 5E Wisdom.

You say you're good at problem solving. Are you good at chess? That's certainly an activity we normally associate with intelligence. However, a lot of chess grandmasters play through intuition and "muscle memory," which 5E ties with wisdom.

I'm not good at chess. However, I socialize quite well with people that aren't too close for me. I work as a mathematics teacher at the university, and I easily explain material to the students.
The problem rise when I aim for a closer level of relationship be it a girl or a friend, which requires insight on my part. That is definitely Wisdom.

[LeonBH]

I'm not good at chess. However, I socialize quite well with people that aren't too close for me. I work as a mathematics teacher at the university, and I easily explain material to the students.
The problem rise when I aim for a closer level of relationship be it a girl or a friend, which requires insight on my part. That is definitely Wisdom.

I mean, certainly the one who knows you best is you, so I'll agree you have a problem with your 5e-equivalent Wisdom in real life.

However, I will note that if you know your students are able to understand you easily, that is insight into your students' thoughts. If your insight is high for casual relationships but is low for more serious relationships, well, that just shows that the concept of Wisdom in 5E (and even Insight) doesn't really capture real people. It's just a useful game mechanic.

[Malifice]

This is one I've been grappling with for a little while.

The other five ability scores are more or less self-explanatory. Strength = ability to move heavy things and hit hard. Dexterity = ability to move with precision and grace. Constitution = all sorts of toughness (both taking hits and not getting diseases). Intelligence = knowing things and logic-ing. Charisma = having a compelling, magnetic personality. All of those are simplifications, mind you, but they cover the basic idea.

I can't even manage a simplified explanation for Wisdom. The name suggests good decision-making skills or life experience. It's also the basis for Perception and Insight, skills related to noticing and understanding things. Yet it's also the basis for saves based on willpower and resisting being controlled. Not to mention it's the basis for Medicine and Survival, which both sound more Intelligence to me, and Animal Handling, which seems at least vaguely Charisma (though I'm on the fence about that).

EDIT: And it's also the basis for Cleric spellcasting, on the rationale that it's the ability to intuit one's deity's will and intentions. So basically Insight, which I kind of understand.

So what would you all say Wisdom is, exactly? As a corollary, what does playing a character with high or low Wisdom mean?

Intuition. Perceptiveness. Common sense. Circumspection. Enlightenment. Sagacity. Shrewdness.

A physics nerd, who is in Mensa and has two PHDs, but is also sending his money overseas to Nigeran scamsters on the promise that he gets to marry a Nigerian princess has high Int/ low Wisdom.

[holywhippet]

I'd say intelligence is the ability to apply logic and reasoning as well as general mental acuity like remembering things and making calculations. Wisdom is the ability to look beyond the obvious and think through the consequences of actions.

So if the party wants to get into a city they aren't allowed into one character might see a weakness in the walls and can see a way to breach them via intelligence. Another character could see that making the breach would cause a lot of noise and could allow other undesirables to get into the city.

Insight is wisdom based because if someone is lying to you it might not be obvious from intelligence because their lies seem to have no logical holes. You need to have an understanding of human nature, body language and verbal hints to realize what someone is really thinking.

[LeonBH]

I'd say intelligence is the ability to apply logic and reasoning as well as general mental acuity like remembering things and making calculations. Wisdom is the ability to look beyond the obvious and think through the consequences of actions.

So if the party wants to get into a city they aren't allowed into one character might see a weakness in the walls and can see a way to breach them via intelligence. Another character could see that making the breach would cause a lot of noise and could allow other undesirables to get into the city.

Insight is wisdom based because if someone is lying to you it might not be obvious from intelligence because their lies seem to have no logical holes. You need to have an understanding of human nature, body language and verbal hints to realize what someone is really thinking.

I'd say if you're a smart person, you should realize that breaching the walls will create noise and, in general, allow you to think about the consequences of your actions.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You know, I feel like I've passed some sort of milestone on this forum by setting off a three-page debate.

Is this really a debate? I don't see a lot of disagreement here, just a few minor quibbles about semantics. You should be able to grasp what Wisdom represents pretty easily by synthesising all the responses in this thread.


It really doesn't have a good real-world analogue.

What you're getting at here is a separate issue. D&D Wisdom represents a group of traits and abilities that, in real life, don't necessarily occur together. The game simplifies things, and creates a world where someone with high Wisdom is good at all of the 'Wisdom' skills. Yeah, it creates a weird situation where someone says "who's good with animals?" and everyone checks their sheet and the cleric says "oh, I have a +4, for some reason?" but is that any different from other ability scores?

All of them are being used to cover a range of proficiencies. Take Dexterity: balance, agility, grace, hand-eye coordination, quickness of action, fine motor control... It's entirely possible to have some of those things but not others in real life. Is there really a correlation between being able to pick a lock and bust out triple corkscrews on a snowboard?

[Malifice]

I'd say if you're a smart person, you should realize that breaching the walls will create noise and, in general, allow you to think about the consequences of your actions.

Brilliant people frequently miss the obvious.

We're talking about a guy who is incredibly smart (Int 16), but lacks insightinto the consequenes of his own actions and the actipons of other people (Wis 8).

Consider a person that has studied criminology (earning a PHD). He knows all there is to know about the topic of being a detective, and the causes of crimes.

If he lacks any intuition or insight about people and human relationships, or any abilty to follow his 'gut' or a 'hunch' then he wont be catching that many crooks.

[LeonBH]

Brilliant people frequently miss the obvious.

We're talking about a guy who is incredibly smart (Int 16), but lacks insightinto the consequenes of his own actions and the actipons of other people (Wis 8).

Consider a person that has studied criminology (earning a PHD). He knows all there is to know about the topic of being a detective, and the causes of crimes.

If he lacks any intuition or insight about people and human relationships, or any abilty to follow his 'gut' or a 'hunch' then he wont be catching that many crooks.

If the PhD's area of research is how to catch criminals, and he fails to catch criminals, then his PhD is very dubious indeed. You couldn't justify his high Int.

If his area of research is why crimes happen in aggregate (eg, multivariate analysis on occupation, position, income, age, sex, race, religion, place of origin, etc as predictors for criminality) then his field of study has no connection with how to be a detective. He shouldn't be proficient with solving crimes.

However, Investigation is an intelligence-based skill. So apparently this academic is also good at investigating crimes while also doing his PhD.

[Randomthom]

Re Medicine: I think there's room for both Wisdom (Medicine) and Intelligence (Medicine) in the game.

Wisdom (Medicine) is mostly for applied treatment. It leans on the intuition and empathy parts of Wisdom for dealing with the patient, and the judgement and awareness aspects for rendering treatment. Having a strong Wisdom score also implies that you'd be better at triage - especially where you have to make a split-second call as to which injury needs treating first to save the patient's life.

Anything that could be described as "more art than science" is going to need Wisdom. A wise character would be able to judge when a placebo might be useful for example, and would almost certainly be a better psychologist/therapist.

Intelligence (Medicine) is about knowing the lore and, where appropriate, the chemistry. Being able to list the symptoms of a disease, name every bone in the body, or remember the recipe for a healing potion would all be Intelligence-based tasks. Intelligent characters are problem-solvers, so they might be better at piecing together a strange set of symptoms in order to deduce what the underlying cause might be.

I have previously made use of both of your examples above, Wisdom (Medicine) to identify the issue, Intelligence (Medicine) to plan surgery and then Dexterity (Medicine) to perform said surgery. I do love this system for it's initial simplicity but then complexity in flexibility when you go deeper.

[Morty]

There's a reason every other system I can think of that uses a traditional attribute spread treats perception and willpower, whether they're actually called that, separately. Those traits don't necessarily go together and each of them is strong enough to stand on its own, in whatever form it takes.

[Anonymouswizard]

Intelligence is the ability to figure out how to make explosives from common household chemicals.

Wisdom is refraining from doing so.

Charisma is convincing people that your neighbour is doing it.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, it creates a weird situation where someone says "who's good with animals?" and everyone checks their sheet and the cleric says "oh, I have a +4, for some reason?" but is that any different from other ability scores?Are there really GMs / groups that play that way? Sometimes I feel like One Roll to Rule Them All is just a white room thing, given there's no conceivable use for it, but people bring it up often.

For example, if there's time for the characters to discuss who's best to do a Animal Handling task, there's usually enough time to automatically succeed at the task. If there isn't time, whomever says they want to do something without all this table talk first is the one doing it.


There's a reason every other system I can think of that uses a traditional attribute spread treats perception and willpower, whether they're actually called that, separately. Those traits don't necessarily go together and each of them is strong enough to stand on its own, in whatever form it takes.I agree. There was a whole thread on the value of Perception in the Roleplaying Games forum last week.

Unfortunately the 6 stats of D&D are traditional, and there's no way they're going to change it at this point. If they tried, it won't be D&D any more.

That said, what they can do is disassociate perception from wisdom into a non-attribute driven skill. It's only been attribute driven since 3e. Before that Hear Noise was a fixed chance for all characters except Thieves, who had it scale up with level automatically.

[Kurald Galain]

It's not just you; Wisdom is a jumbled mess of an attribute. It's all the mental things that don't fit into Intelligence or Charisma, unless they do, but they're in Wisdom anyway. That said "what's playing a character with a high or low X like" isn't a very useful question anyway, even with more clear-cut attributes. With something as vague as wisdom, it's even less so.

Yes, this.

This is why pretty much every attribute-based RPG has a Strength, Dex, and Int attribute, and absolutely no RPG ever has a Wis attribute except for D&D clones.

It's legacy, its definition varies from edition to edition, and while many players have their own personal definition of what it might mean, none of those definitions are the same. You're just not going to get a clear answer on this.

[Tanarii]

This is why pretty much every attribute-based RPG has a Strength, Dex, and Int attribute, and absolutely no RPG ever has a Wis attribute except for D&D clones.
D&D has Wisdom because it needed an ability score for Clerics, not because of Perception or other Wisdom skills.

[PhoenixPhyre]

D&D has Wisdom because it needed an ability score for Clerics, not because of Perception or other Wisdom skills.

Right. Everything else got lumped in later. Of course, the designers have retroactively attempted to justify each ability score as something other than

* STR = Fightering ability
* DEX = Thievering ability
* CON = Antideading ability
* WIS = holy-guying ability
* INT = magicing ability
* CHA = well, not really sure. interpersonal-reactioning ability?

How well their attempts work, well, YMMV.

Edit: most of this post really should be blue text. But it's semi-serious.

[mephnick]

Are there really GMs / groups that play that way? Sometimes I feel like One Roll to Rule Them All is just a white room thing, given there's no conceivable use for it, but people bring it up often.

It happens. I've played at a few tables now that I've broken my foreverDM curse and I've gotten "I'll only let whoever has the highest bonus roll" or "Only proficient characters can roll." multiple times. I grit my teeth and think about starting up my own game again.

[Tanarii]

* CHA = well, not really sure. interpersonal-reactioning ability?
Not sure if the stat was even in oD&D, and what it did. But prior to 3e, I always thought of Cha as the Henchman ability.

ie how big an army of PCs can I bring to the table ability.

[strangebloke]

But there is no reason why wise old men are better at befriending dogs than foolish preteens. That's not even a thing you can confidently claim is true in real life. Being a wise old man doesn't also make you the dog whisperer, neither individually nor on average.

Well, exactly. D&D isn't designed to simulate characters like doctors. You thus have shown that there are limitations to Wisdom in the system yourself but using a different example.

In actuality, you aren't more aware of your own mind as a wise person. No mental ability score covers that area. Wisdom represents awareness of others and the surroundings. So it would be your understanding of others that you use to stop from preventing yourself from turning into an animal... which doesn't make a lot of sense.

The book does say Polymorph is Wisdom-based, true. But if Polymorph was a Strength-based save, or if Fireball was a Charisma-based save, you would be scratching your head as well as to their interpretation. What difference does a Charisma-save Fireball have over a Wisdom-save Fireball? What difference does a Strength-save Polymorph have over a Constitution-save Polymorph? And thus, why is Polymorph Wisdom, not Charisma or Intelligence? What does that saving throw represent?

1. Wisdom is the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment. That's not a gameified definition, that's Webster. Old people are generally wise because they are more experienced and have had years to develop good judgement. Knowledge was rolled into INT, but that's the sort of blurring that goes on in any attribute-based system. The handling of animals in reality requires both knowledge (INT) and good judgement (WIS) but as with all skills, it got distilled down to one attribute.

2. My point with the doctors was that a great doctor who is bad with their kids can actually be modeled with DND, insofar as DND has the capacity to model either fatherhood or being a doctor. Your argument was: Somebody who is good at medicine isn't naturally good at parenting as well. You are wrong in that statement, even within DND's clunky skill system.

3. I disagree. I think wisdom covers inner awareness as well. That's the whole shtick of a monk, right? I would argue that's a big part of a cleric's shtick as well. Charisma is related, being the force of your own personality, but typically I'd say that a WIS save is you being able to realize the effect is happening at all, whereas a CHA save is you needing to power through it.

4. Yes, I would scratch my head at those. But that's an internal/external problem. DEX and STR are used for things external to yourself, like, say, a fireball. It'd be reasonable to have hypnotic pattern require a DEX save to look away, for instance. It wouldn't be reasonable to "Flex your muscles to avoid turning into a toad" because the change is internal. Polymorph, as an internal change, could be justified as CHA, CON, WIS, or possibly INT, although that last one would require some mental gymnastics to justify.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is why pretty much every attribute-based RPG has a Strength, Dex, and Int attribute, and absolutely no RPG ever has a Wis attribute except for D&D clones.

I've seen plenty of games without Dexterity or similar Attributes, although they generally dump all physical actions into a single attribute and call it a day.

In general, if a game isn't a D&D clone they seem to fall into one of two categories. The rarer is to take the World of Darkness status of three groups of three attributes, generally replacing 'social' with 'soul', and tailoring that to their setting. The other is to begin with one stat for all physical activities, one for all social activities, and one for all mental activities, and then split them if any seem to encompass too much of the game (sometimes before development actually begins, as the designers know they want to focus somewhere, sometimes afterwards).

Now the 'three attributes' method can lead to trouble in certain games, I certainly wouldn't use a physical/mental/social set in a dungeon crawl, but in many adventures a character specialised in each can find a way to contribute, as do characters that focus on two of them (and rarely jacks as well).

I have seen Wisdom-alikes in non-D&D clones as well, but rarely anything quite as kitchen-sinky. Most seem to have one area of Wisdom, generally Perception or Willpower, that they want to focus on more than the others.


* CHA = well, not really sure. interpersonal-reactioning ability?

Bossing ability. In 2e (and I think earlier) it's primary purpose was how many henchmen you could cart around, and how loyal they were.

[strangebloke]

I have previously made use of both of your examples above, Wisdom (Medicine) to identify the issue, Intelligence (Medicine) to plan surgery and then Dexterity (Medicine) to perform said surgery. I do love this system for it's initial simplicity but then complexity in flexibility when you go deeper.
This is a very cool thing that is important to remember as a DM.

For me, wisdom was a writing mistake, and was actually called Willpower. Because that is what it is. It is about keeping your focus in battle, when a dragon is staying in front of you. It is your willpower to resist the mind techniques of an illusionist, it as all about willpower.
Charisma is more the willpower function.

CHA is the force of your personality.

[LeonBH]

1. Wisdom is the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment. That's not a gameified definition, that's Webster. Old people are generally wise because they are more experienced and have had years to develop good judgement. Knowledge was rolled into INT, but that's the sort of blurring that goes on in any attribute-based system. The handling of animals in reality requires both knowledge (INT) and good judgement (WIS) but as with all skills, it got distilled down to one attribute.

Right. And still, wise old men are not automatically better at being dog whisperers than foolish teenagers. 5E makes it that way, but there is no analogue of it in real life. The OP is asking for an interpretation of Wisdom in real life and I have shown an example where you can't translate the gamified concept into real life.


2. My point with the doctors was that a great doctor who is bad with their kids can actually be modeled with DND, insofar as DND has the capacity to model either fatherhood or being a doctor. Your argument was: Somebody who is good at medicine isn't naturally good at parenting as well. You are wrong in that statement, even within DND's clunky skill system.

No, you are wrong in your statement. My argument is: if you have two people who are good at medicine, but are differentiated by the fact that one is a good parent and the other is a bad parent, you should not be able to say anything about their first aid abilities by looking at their parenting skills. If parenting was a generic Wisdom check in 5E, it would make good parents better at medicine checks automatically (compared to bad parents, assuming the same level of proficiency between the two), and hence you would be able to say something about a person's first aid ability based on how good a parent they are, even if that doesn't make sense.

That is not the same as "Somebody who is good at medicine isn't naturally good at parenting as well"


3. I disagree. I think wisdom covers inner awareness as well. That's the whole shtick of a monk, right? I would argue that's a big part of a cleric's shtick as well. Charisma is related, being the force of your own personality, but typically I'd say that a WIS save is you being able to realize the effect is happening at all, whereas a CHA save is you needing to power through it.

You are disagreeing with the book. PHB 178: "Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

You're now asserting your interpretation to be the true interpretation, which I reject based on the book. If I stick to what's written in the book, then I can continue to say that Wisdom in 5E doesn't have a real life analogue and doesn't make sense as a saving throw to certain spells that ask for Wisdom saving throws.


4. Yes, I would scratch my head at those. But that's an internal/external problem. DEX and STR are used for things external to yourself, like, say, a fireball. It'd be reasonable to have hypnotic pattern require a DEX save to look away, for instance. It wouldn't be reasonable to "Flex your muscles to avoid turning into a toad" because the change is internal. Polymorph, as an internal change, could be justified as CHA, CON, WIS, or possibly INT, although that last one would require some mental gymnastics to justify.

There you go. If Polymorph could have been represented by several saves, but Wisdom was chosen for it, then the same must be true for a lot of other spells. While you can fluff the reason out to justify why Wisdom is appropriate for that spell, it remains that Wisdom was most likely chosen out of all the viable saves because they wanted to make Wisdom a "major save" along with Dexterity and Constitution. It was ultimately a numbers decision.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Are there really GMs / groups that play that way? Sometimes I feel like One Roll to Rule Them All is just a white room thing, given there's no conceivable use for it, but people bring it up often.

For example, if there's time for the characters to discuss who's best to do a Animal Handling task, there's usually enough time to automatically succeed at the task. If there isn't time, whomever says they want to do something without all this table talk first is the one doing it.

It depends on the situation, obviously, but it happens. I've seen this in every game I've DMed, played, or watched on YouTube. Sometimes it's annoying and metagamey, but other times there actually is time for the PCs to discuss a problem and choose who takes the lead on it.

Plus, like, this happens all the time in real life.
"Who's good with computers?"
"Ask Simon, he might know."
*Simon has a go, but rolls badly* "Sorry mate, I can't figure this one out."

[Tanarii]

It depends on the situation, obviously, but it happens. I've seen this in every game I've DMed, played, or watched on YouTube. Sometimes it's annoying and metagamey, but other times there actually is time for the PCs to discuss a problem and choose who takes the lead on it.

Plus, like, this happens all the time in real life.
"Who's good with computers?"
"Ask Simon, he might know."
*Simon has a go, but rolls badly* "Sorry mate, I can't figure this one out." I was kinda assuming checks with no consequences other than time, since that's most often when these come up, so my bad on jumping to conclusions. It wasn't that it's annoying and metagam-y, because as you say if they can discuss it they'll know who's good. I would find it "metagame-y" in a game where the players can table talk when the characters can't, but that's because I find that to be an unnecessary forced separation of player-character.

Anyway, my point was there's already rules that should make actually rolling the dice any time they have a discussion like this unnecessary, ie when they have time. But there's a big UNLESS in that statement. :smallwink: Unless there is a consequence for failure, then yeah, players/characters discussing who is best at something before they risk their life and limb makes perfect sense, at all levels.

[Joe the Rat]

My Perspective:

5e D&D Wisdom Covers
- Awareness (Skill Checks)
- Inference (Skill Checks)
- Willpower (Saving Throws)
- Tuning into the Divine/World and using it to do magic (Wis-based casting)

5e D&D Wisdom Does Not Cover
- Wisdom.

Nothing about the attribute deals with gathered information and previous experience (that's Intelligence), or the ability to weigh information to make solid choices, or the long perspective of having seen it all before. The Wise old man may be better at things due to experience, and keeping sharp, but that is reflected in how you build the whole of the character, not one mis-named attribute.

Wisdom is covered by Player Decisions.

W is for Wisdom is a matter of historical precedent. It's always been called Wisdom, from the days when saving throws were mostly independent of attributes, and seeing things was a matter of Yes, No, where did you look, and roll a d6 unless you are drow or svirfneblin, in which case let me get that issue of Dragon that breaks down the various x in y combinations.

[strangebloke]

Wisdom is covered by Player Decisions.


This is the thing though.

The OP was asking, how do you play someone who is wise?

The answer is, have your character make wise choices.

My cleric I'm playing right now is cautious and meticulous in terms of how he behaves. He's gruff and rude to his teammates because he thinks they aren't taking the danger seriously enough, but he doesn't have the charisma to get them in line. He's no genius, so if someone else comes up with a plan he'll probably follow it, if his instincts tell him that the guy is on the level. Judgement is (and has to be) an in character quality.

The only exception is if you have something that is neccesarily abstract, like making a tactical decision for an army.

[Tanarii]

This is the thing though.

The OP was asking, how do you play someone who is wise?

The answer is, have your character make wise choices.No, it wasn't.

The OP asked: "As a corollary, what does playing a character with high or low Wisdom mean?"

The answer is, it has nothing to do with playing someone who is wise, nor making wise choices. It has to do with playing someone that, per the PHB, mechanically how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

The closest you might get to "wise choices" is if your DM lets you make Wisdom checks to "Get a gut feeling about what course of action to follow." Of course, that's not really wisdom nor common sense. It's intuition, which is (at best) a subset of making wise choices, in that it might provide you with good information to proceed on. Or it might lead you astray into unwise choices.

Edit: For completeness, like I said in an earlier post, the PHB introduction actually says a bunch of stuff which doesn't match up with what Wisdom actually does mechanically. It says "a character with high Wisdom has good judgment, empathy, and a general awareness of what’s going on. A character with low Wisdom might be absent-minded, foolhardy, or oblivious." None of that is necessarily the case mechanically. So take it with a grain of salt.

[Malifice]

However, Investigation is an intelligence-based skill. So apparently this academic is also good at investigating crimes while also doing his PhD.

Unless he has a high Wisdom, suspects are going to pull the wool over his eyes and he wont know who is telling him the truth or hiding something, he's not going to have any insight into people and their emotions and feelings and how they interact (meaning he will miss the obvious) and he wont find the clues to investigate in the first place.

Being a braniac is one thing. Having insight into people and how they act and feel, being able to follow your intuition, and not being duped or fooled are something else entirely.

Something that I shouldnt have to tell anyone who plays this game, as we tend to fall into this category.

[TheCount]

In my opinion, inteligence is memory, it gives you dots. Wisdom is thinking, it helps you connect those dots. Charisma is impresing others, aka the ability to interfere with thier ability HOW to connect their dots.

[Tanarii]

In my opinion, inteligence is memory, it gives you dots. Wisdom is thinking, it helps you connect those dots. Charisma is impresing others, aka the ability to interfere with thier ability HOW to connect their dots.
Intelligence is explicitly deduction that helps you connect the dots, especially the Investigation skill.

[Beelzebubba]

You can have two PCs whose background were doctors/medics who decided to pick up the mantle of an adventurer. It doesn't really change the argument. You can still compare two doctors (who are now PCs, in this case) and their relative skills at first aid.

First aid for typical bumps and cuts are low DC checks that most people with general common sense can fix.

For treating really complicated, subtle disorders, or identifying the deadly disease that has symptoms that are similar to common problems, you need the training, plus (for the diagnosis) sensitivity, skill at observation, great listening skills, and (for surgery) the mental fortitude and grace under pressure.

Sure, someone with high Intelligence may have the capacity to be a surgeon from the technical standpoint, but only the highest mental fortitude and judgment can allow that training to really stick when it's life and death and you have to go on gut feel based on a huge amount of direct sensory experience. The last thing we need is some brilliant, brittle egg-head cracking under pressure.

And, yes, Wisdom is 'Constitution of mental stats'. You get through the worst pain and suffering in life by drawing upon wisdom, not by intellectualizing. Anyone who's lived long enough knows that first-hand.

So, yeah. I see Wisdom as being the underlying trait at the core of what makes a great doctor, and when someone is very high level, and very skilled, then it's a little under 1/2 of what's there (+5 ability, +6 proficiency) for most, and under 1/3 (if you add another +6 for expertise) for the most elevated few.

[LeonBH]

First aid for typical bumps and cuts are low DC checks that most people with general common sense can fix.

Irrelevant. "First aid" does not cover putting a band aid over a wound. First Aid is the ability to alleviate short term suffering, especially during an emergency: creating a sling from a cravat, properly splintering a fractured limb, knowing when to elevate an injury, knowing when and where to use a hot or cold compress, knowing how to carry an injured person without exacerbating their condition, etc.

First aid isn't rocket science, but it's not healing bumps and cuts.


For treating really complicated, subtle disorders, or identifying the deadly disease that has symptoms that are similar to common problems, you need the training, plus (for the diagnosis) sensitivity, skill at observation, great listening skills, and (for surgery) the mental fortitude and grace under pressure.

You've just presented a false dichotomy. Either it's a low DC check that most people can fix, or it's a deadly disease. There is a gigantic chasm of possibilities you didn't consider in between those two.

If you're dealing with a disease as deadly as a tumor, there is no reliability to listening to the patient's report. You need advanced equipment to make a proper diagnosis.

And 5E Wisdom does not cover mental fortitude and grace under pressure. It covers being attuned to the environment. PHB 178: "Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

You can interpret it as mental fortitude for your games, but that is not a RAW-supported ruling.


So, yeah. I see Wisdom as being the underlying trait at the core of what makes a great doctor, and when someone is very high level, and very skilled, then it's a little under 1/2 of what's there (+5 ability, +6 proficiency) for most, and under 1/3 (if you add another +6 for expertise) for the most elevated few.

To loop this back to the original example, if someone is a great parent (to represent a generic Wisdom check), then the question is if they are a great doctor. Two equally trained doctors are differentiated by: one is a bad parent, one is a good parent. Under your interpretation, the good parent is always a better doctor. Why? How is that remotely connected to real life?

[Chugger]

Real Life is a different game; very much not DnD. DnD is not a reality-emulator, either.

Speaking not so much from RAW but on how Int and Wis have been historically differentiated over decades of rpg's:

Int is more logic and reasoning power, like the ability to understand advanced math and physics.

Wis is more intuition, possibly a little instinct, too.

Int is understanding how to make a nuclear bomb.

Wis is knowing whether or not you should make (or use) a nuclear bomb.

Have you ever met a person with a 162 IQ who makes horrible decisions? That's possibly a 20 Int and 6 Wis character. Forrest Gump might be an Int 5 or 6 person with a Wis of at least 14, maybe 16 or more. Repeating in this paragraph what I've read in earlier threads on this topic.

[Beelzebubba]

You've just presented a false dichotomy. Either it's a low DC check that most people can fix, or it's a deadly disease. There is a gigantic chasm of possibilities you didn't consider in between those two.

Those are things that people who argue in good faith call 'examples'. When one tries to make a point quickly, you choose extremes so you make sure you've covered the gamut.

Sorry if I didn't explain that. You can use terms like 'false dichotomy' so I thought you could figure that out for yourself.


If you're dealing with a disease as deadly as a tumor, there is no reliability to listening to the patient's report. You need advanced equipment to make a proper diagnosis.

You pick one tiny detail out of a list of things I wrote and try to use that to discredit the whole thing. That's called 'All Or Nothing Thinking'. A logical flaw.

You presumed the listening was only related to the patient's direct report. That's an assumption on your part, you added that. Great listening skills means not only listening not to what they said (and there are many MANY people who report that they told the doctor exactly what was up but were blatantly ignored), but more: how they said it, what they avoided saying, etcetera. You said it yourself below: 'It covers being attuned to the environment.' Listening is about much more than hearing the words.

Also, you think that giving an imperceptive fool access to amazing diagnostic tools = success? That takes natural skill plus training too. And, if you ask any doctor (as I have done), the field is as much an art as it is science. It takes intuition and 'gut feel' that is decidedly un-intellecutal to use all the tools. Wisdom wins again!


And 5E Wisdom does not cover mental fortitude and grace under pressure. It covers being attuned to the environment. PHB 178: "Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

Wisdom saving throws are used to resist mental control spells. Your intellect tells you that this is must be a magical kind of Fear that you're experiencing, but unless you have the strength to stick through the fear long enough for your insight to see that it's false, then you fail. That is definitely a feature of Wisdom; the knowledge to ignore things that don't matter to see what does.


To loop this back to the original example, if someone is a great parent (to represent a generic Wisdom check), then the question is if they are a great doctor. Two equally trained doctors are differentiated by: one is a bad parent, one is a good parent. Under your interpretation, the good parent is always a better doctor. Why? How is that remotely connected to real life?

Equally trained does not equal equally effective. That's an assumption that fails when the person with equal training but terrible insight and perception overlooks all the subtle hints that are communicating the real problem. That's why it's a combination of Wisdom and training, as I accounted for above.

You'd have realized that if you used your logic to test your own arguments, rather than just willy-nilly flinging terms at others to win arguments in bad faith. :smallwink:

Also, when one has experience with real life, this is a thing one realizes: Parenting skills, like wisdom, are not an all-or-nothing affair. They are a continuum. People are better at some things than others, and there is no one 'stat' that is always 100% the same in all areas of your life. People have limited stamina and perception, so those things aren't even constant over time, either.

And, D&D's gross, simple mechanics don't even attempt to model things like 'Doctor A has boundless energy and patience for everyone in his life, but Doctor B is so engrossed in his life's work as a cancer surgeon that he is a clueless, inattentive parent to his children, even while he is warm, caring, and attentive to his patients'.

Doctor B is just more wise about medicine than he his about parenting. He's developed his perception, instinct, and judgment about a narrower set of things. The only reason we don't model it in D&D is - well, I guess 3E tried, but - too much complexity in a game makes it un-fun. So we don't get that subtle. But, it doesn't change the fact: More Wisdom = Better At Doctor/Parent/Life.

So, if one attempts to think about things in a nuanced way, then subtle things like these don't jump out as a trigger to shout 'FALSE DICHOTOMY'. They just appear as 'reality', and threads like this don't last that long.

[LeonBH]

Those are things that people who argue in good faith call 'examples'.

When one tries to make a point quickly, you choose extremes so you make sure you've covered the gamut.

Sorry if I didn't explain that. You can use terms like 'false dichotomy' so I thought you could figure that out for yourself.

When the example is wrong, one points it out. Otherwise, the discussion based on the wrong example.


Wisdom saving throws are used to resist mental control spells. Your intellect tells you that this is must be a magical kind of Fear that you're experiencing, but unless you have the strength to stick through the fear long enough for your insight to see that it's false, then you fail. That is definitely a feature of Wisdom; the knowledge to ignore things that don't matter to see what does.

That's your interpretation though and is not supported by the book. By RAW, Wisdom being used to resist mental control spells equates to your perceptiveness/awareness of the environment being used to resist mental control spells.


Equally trained does not equal equally effective. That's an assumption that fails when the person with equal training but terrible insight and perception overlooks all the subtle hints that are communicating the real problem. That's why it's a combination of Wisdom and training, as I accounted for above.

To make a proper comparison, you don't compare two things that are different in multiple ways. In economics, that's called ceteris paribus, the principle of all other things remaining equal.

In statistical Design of Experiments, that concept is called blocking. You can't make a statement about X if you are lumping it with Y. You would end up making a statement about X+Y, which is not the goal. The goal is to make a statement about X, not Y, and not X+Y.

Thus, to make a fair and logical comparison, you must assume two equally trained, equally effective people and look at how they are different in other areas and the effects of those differences. I would assume people know this. It's Econ 101.


You'd have realized that if you used your logic to test your own arguments, rather than just willy-nilly flinging terms at others to win arguments in bad faith. :smallwink:

You're arguing from a place of bad logic. Don't be sore when it's pointed out.


Also, when one has experience with real life, this is a thing one realizes: Parenting skills, like wisdom, are not an all-or-nothing affair. They are a continuum. People are better at some things than others, and there is no one 'stat' that is always 100% the same in all areas of your life. People have limited stamina and perception, so those things aren't even constant over time, either.

I've already addressed this. Parenting was only used as a stand-in for a generic 5E Wisdom-related skill. The purpose of this is to find an area of measure that cannot be enhanced by a proficiency bonus. Thus a measure of parenting for this purpose will be a measure of one's 5e Wisdom.

You can replace parenting with anything else that will appease you, as long as you believe it's a generic 5E Wisdom check that is not Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival, or Animal Handling (thus you cannot get proficiency or expertise in it).

Then apply it to the argument I made, and the argument will hold.


And, D&D's gross, simple mechanics don't even attempt to model things like 'Doctor B is so engrossed in his life's work as a cancer surgeon that he is a clueless, inattentive parent to his children, even while he is warm, caring, and attentive to his patients'. The doctor that is helping his patients but failing his family is just more wise about medicine than he his about parenting. He's developed his perception, instinct, and judgment about a narrower set of things.

You are saying that 5E Wisdom doesn't have a real life analogue, right? Then why are you arguing with me?

The point of the comparison is to show that the answer to the question "What is Wisdom, exactly?" is "It's just a game mechanic that has no relation to real life."


Will a Doctor who is just incredibly perceptive and wise, naturally, be better? And maybe be able to go into the office and be wise, then come home to his children and be wise? You bet, it happens all the time. The only reason we don't model it in D&D is - well, I guess 3E tried, but - too much complexity in a game makes it un-fun. So we don't get that subtle. But, it doesn't change the fact: More Wisdom = Better At Doctor/Parent/Life.

Logical error here, which I hope you don't get offended by when I point it out (though you seem like the type to be, from this most recent reply).

The statement that "More Wisdom = Better Doctor/Parent/Life" does not equal "Better Parent = More Wisdom/Better Doctor/Better Life". But for D&D 5E, the two are equivalent.

I'm pointing out that in 5E, being a better parent makes you a better doctor for no other reason than you are a good parent (replace "parenting" with another generic 5E Wisdom-related task as desired).


So, if one attempts to think about things in a nuanced way, then subtle things like these don't jump out as a trigger to shout 'FALSE DICHOTOMY'. They just appear as 'reality', and threads like this don't last that long.

Well, if you completely ignore the topic of the thread, then of course it won't last long. I've been addressing the central question the whole time though, which is "What exactly is Wisdom?"

And the answer is, it's a game mechanic that doesn't represent anything in real life, given everything 5E Wisdom governs taken together.

[furby076]

An intelligent person knows how to get out of trouble, a wise person knows how to avoid trouble