Warlock with very high save DCs

[Nebuul]

Has anyone else played with Fey and Fiendish feats from Complete Mage on a warlock? For charisma-based warlock builds, I'm thinking these feats:

Fey Heritage (CM)
Fiendish Heritage (CM)
Fey Power (CM)
Fiendish Power (CM)
Boost Spell-Like Ability (BoVD)
Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast (MM)
Ability Focus: Devil's Whispers (MM)
Ability Focus: Word of Changing (MM)

I would also take charm and splash in one level of Mindbender. That way, there is no language barrier for devil's whispers. Plus then you can telepathically deliver suggestions without exposing your position while flying above silently invisible.

I'm thinking my important invocations would be along the lines of:

Eldritch Glaive (swap for see the unseen when learning eldritch doom)
Baleful Utterance
Entropic Warding
Charm
Fel Flight
Devil's Whispers
Noxious Blast
Word of Changing
Retributive Invisibility
Eldritch Doom

Which leaves a lesser and a greater invocation with which to play. I know some folks don't care of Retributive Invisibility, but the goal is basically to hang back and avoid detection completely, and the standard invisibility would be dispelled the instant you cast another spell on someone.

Anyhow, with this build, your Devil's Whispers, Eldritch Blast (aka noxious doom), and word of changing would all have a constant +4 DC with +2 DC 3/day each.

Any thoughts?

[Troacctid]

So for your race I think you actually want to be the Savage Progression version of Feytouched (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Don't take the racial level, and instead take a level of the Half-Fey transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). It's effectively +1 LA, but it gives you +4 Charisma, wings, and extra spell-like abilities (including charm person to qualify for Mindbender without having to take the invocation). And you should ask your DM if you can count as having Fey Heritage since you are literally a fey.

I don't think it's worth doubling up on heritages. Those extra feats could be used for, say, Obtain Familiar + Celestial Familiar. Or just Extra Invocation.

I have some thoughts on invocations. Here's a 34-page, 15,000+ word comprehensive guide to warlock invocations, which you are welcome to peruse. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/edit?usp=sharing

[Yogibear41]

One of the Faerun books has Spell-Like Ability Focus(I think races of Faerun), which is basically another Ability focus you can add on your eldritch blast for another +2 to saves that should stack with ability focus's +2.

[Nebuul]

So for your race I think you actually want to be the Savage Progression version of Feytouched (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Don't take the racial level, and instead take a level of the Half-Fey transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). It's effectively +1 LA, but it gives you +4 Charisma, wings, and extra spell-like abilities (including charm person to qualify for Mindbender without having to take the invocation). And you should ask your DM if you can count as having Fey Heritage since you are literally a fey.

I don't think it's worth doubling up on heritages. Those extra feats could be used for, say, Obtain Familiar + Celestial Familiar. Or just Extra Invocation.

I have some thoughts on invocations. Here's a 34-page, 15,000+ word comprehensive guide to warlock invocations, which you are welcome to peruse. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/edit?usp=sharing

We don't use any templates or non-standard races, and actually no half-orcs, either. Just the rules of our particular campaign.

I also wrote up an update warlock rules/explanation guide (not strategy). I'll try to get the link later. Thank you for yours!

[Nebuul]

So for your race I think you actually want to be the Savage Progression version of Feytouched (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Don't take the racial level, and instead take a level of the Half-Fey transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). It's effectively +1 LA, but it gives you +4 Charisma, wings, and extra spell-like abilities (including charm person to qualify for Mindbender without having to take the invocation). And you should ask your DM if you can count as having Fey Heritage since you are literally a fey.

I don't think it's worth doubling up on heritages. Those extra feats could be used for, say, Obtain Familiar + Celestial Familiar. Or just Extra Invocation.

I have some thoughts on invocations. Here's a 34-page, 15,000+ word comprehensive guide to warlock invocations, which you are welcome to peruse. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-6a2WhKNXCSkbTXiocOklvsgNhCNKxgVdRGn-nhM_zs/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520756-Warlock-Guide-for-Rules-Clarifications-3-5e) on rules clarifications for warlocks.
And here are some useful house rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521507-House-Rules-to-Improve-Warlocks).

Of particular note -- I notice in your guide you have a low opinion of Brimstone Blast. Actually, a single brimstone blast does potentially more damage than a single vitriolic blast. This is because brimstone blast sets targets on fire, which then follows the rules for environmental damage as laid out in the DMG (srd20 link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)). The important bit is that targets take fire damage immediately and then they take it each round after. So brimstone blast at caster level 6 doesn't just deal 2d6 extra fire damage a round later, it actually deals 2d6 extra fire damage the first round, and then additional 2d6 fire damage a round later.


Thanks for the info on the racial templates and classes. Our current campaign limits certain things by only allowing players to be PHB human/elf/half-elf/gnome/dwarf/halfling and also has no psionics, so unfortunately I cannot use it. But otherwise it might be extremely helpful for future campaigns :)

[Troacctid]

Here's my thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520756-Warlock-Guide-for-Rules-Clarifications-3-5e) on rules clarifications for warlocks.
And here are some useful house rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521507-House-Rules-to-Improve-Warlocks).
Like half the replies in both threads are mine. :smallwink:

[Thurbane]

One of the Faerun books has Spell-Like Ability Focus(I think races of Faerun), which is basically another Ability focus you can add on your eldritch blast for another +2 to saves that should stack with ability focus's +2.

You are correct: RoF p.168.

[Nebuul]

Like half the replies in both threads are mine. :smallwink:

Haha, touché

[skunk3]

Personally I think that for warlocks the best feats you can take are item creation feats, Mortalbane, and Extra Invocation. The warlock is one of the best crafters in the game and with the right item creation feats (or a Chameleon dip) they can make pretty much anything. Extra Invocation is awesome because, well, it grants you an extra invocation, and many of the invocation effects either aren't replicated with magic items or are just extremely useful in general. Also, the item creation feats are only useful if you plan on taking a warlock to level 12 at least and not multiclassing or using a PrC like Eldritch Theurge/Disciple.

If you're planning on hanging back and using noxious blast and whatnot, why bother picking up Eldritch Glaive? Baleful Utterance is an awesome invocation but sadly most of the best uses for it involve destroying party loot. Entropic Warding is a good least invocation but it wouldn't be my first pick. I've found that the utility of See The Unseen is too good to pass up. Charm can be good on the right build, and it also opens you up for a level of Mindbender. Fell Flight is a great one too, at least until you can buy or craft something that gives you better flight. Devil's Whispers is an invocation that can be very useful with certain builds but pointless with others. Noxious Blast is a good essence but I wouldn't take it over Vitriolic Blast because the debuff isn't worth losing out on bypassing SR plus dealing more damage IMO. Word of Changing is a nice invocation but sadly by the time it becomes available it's fairly late in the game and it's not likely to work on anyone with a decent will save. Retributive Invisibility is good but also has the potential to damage your party members if dispelled. Eldritch Doom requires that you be in the thick of things to really have good effect. It's great if you're focused on being in the middle of the action but otherwise something like Eldritch Chain is better IMO.

Fey Heritage = +3 to saves vs. enchantments. Not worth spending a feat on.
Fiendish heritage is okay due to the +1 to saves vs. good spells, but personally I think that Extra Invocation is better still.
The effects of Fey + Fiendish power can be replicated with ioun stones basically. Not worth the feats, especially as CL doesn't really matter for most warlock abilities. There's also other items that can bump up CL.
The ability focus feats give a decent little bump to whatever ability you designate, but is that little bump worth it compared to getting access to another invocation?

In short, a warlock's best feature is that whatever they can do, they can do at-will all day long. The more invocations a warlock knows, the more versatile he/she is. Being able to create items is also fantastic because it can potentially save you a ton of gold and catching up on lost XP isn't hard. Warlocks can also be played many ways and still be pretty effective.

[Nebuul]

Hey skunk, thanks for your input. I think you might have missed the reason I take the fey/fiendish feats, though. The caster level is unimportant. What matters is that they increase the save dc of all warlock invocations, so those 4 feats used are the equivalent of getting an extra ability focus on each of my invocations.

Regarding eldritch glaive, I honestly forgot to drop it for see the unseen. I keep glaive until I get eldritch doom, then swap it out. Nice catch!

This character is not the damage dealer of the group. He's the face, forward scout, and crowd controller. Noxious blast with eldritch doom is incredibly potent, especially with the additional +6 save dc this build provides. He's also built so that his allies are never in danger from his abilities. His goal is to fly around and disrupt the battlefield.

I will probably work in a dispel magic as one of his invocations so that he can deal with troublesome buffs, but that can probably be done without changing feats since he has a few open invocation choices.

[skunk3]

Hey skunk, thanks for your input. I think you might have missed the reason I take the fey/fiendish feats, though. The caster level is unimportant. What matters is that they increase the save dc of all warlock invocations, so those 4 feats used are the equivalent of getting an extra ability focus on each of my invocations.

Regarding eldritch glaive, I honestly forgot to drop it for see the unseen. I keep glaive until I get eldritch doom, then swap it out. Nice catch!

This character is not the damage dealer of the group. He's the face, forward scout, and crowd controller. Noxious blast with eldritch doom is incredibly potent, especially with the additional +6 save dc this build provides. He's also built so that his allies are never in danger from his abilities. His goal is to fly around and disrupt the battlefield.

I will probably work in a dispel magic as one of his invocations so that he can deal with troublesome buffs, but that can probably be done without changing feats since he has a few open invocation choices.

Okay, so fey and fiendish power together give you a +2 to save DC's and it requires 4 feats to get you there. An orange ioun stone is 30k GP and adds +1 to your caster level, and +1 to your CL is essentially the same as +1 to save DC, only better because it applies to everything and you can use as many as you can afford. That's seven feats you're taking to be really good at 3 abilities, one of which is a dark invocation and won't be available for a while. Personally I'd rather have more versatility and slightly less effectiveness in terms of save DC's but I guess it all just depends on the rest of the party. Your proposed build isn't bad or anything, it's just not how I'd play it. For example, I'll compare mine:



Human male warlock 3 / cleric 3 / Eldritch Disciple 5. When it is all said and done I will be warlock 3 / cleric 4 / eldritch disciple 10 / hellfire (heavensfire) warlock 3.

feats: Mortalbane, Precise Magic (basically precise shot except for rays), spell pen, greater spell pen, practiced spellcaster (these feats are for helping the divine casting)

invocations: Eldritch Spear (I'm staying back as much as possible), See The Unseen, Entropic Warding, Fell Flight, Flee The Scene (a must-have IMO)

All of my future feats are going towards extra invocations, so the ones I'll pick up by level 20 are (in no order): Brimstone Blast (for Hellfire Warlock), Vitriolic Blast (great essence plus works synergistically with anything fire related), chilling tentacles (best crowd control invocation a warlock can get hands down), nightmares made real (even more crowd control), word of changing, walk unseen, caustic mire (yes, more crowd control), painful slumber of the ages. I will retrain Fell Flight into Eldritch Chain when I can afford to buy a decent flight item.

Mortalbane can be applied to all invocations that deal damage 5x per day PER invocation... so in theory I could drop a chilling tentacles, then a caustic mire, then a nightmares made real, all empowered with mortalbane... five times a day... which is going to be grappling/slowing/freaking out anything that fails its save in addition to doing a decent amount of damage, and if someone plopped a fireball on top it would synergize with the acid and do more damage. I'm gonna be locking a lot of things down, all while being able to go invisible, fly, dimension door at will, etc. In addition to that I'll have the hellfire warlock stuff, the extra abilities that come from being an eldritch disciple (like being able to heal with my eldritch blast), etc. 7th level divine casting and tons of spammable warlock abilities by level 20 with no cheese. Oh, and the CL of an 18th level cleric for my divine spells thanks to Practiced Spellcaster not counting any ioun stones I have by that point.

[Nebuul]

I think it's pretty obvious your character's purpose is entirely different than mine, which is fine. But, I did want to point out that caster level has exactly 0 effect on save DCs.

Save DC = 10 + spell level (i.e. 0-9) + relevant ability modifier (cha in this case) + other modifiers

[skunk3]

Ah yes, kinda forgot that somehow. Skipped my meds :P