Lv 20 wizard shenanigans

[Davrix]

I made this post awhile back and some fun things were offered. After going over a few things with the Dm running the short end of the world one shot game. (probably more like a month of games to be honest but very short) He isn't going to let me do any of the standard silly infinite simocrum or whatever it's called, its far to late for me to go look it up. Which is find because it is sort of cheesy but he is fine with me using the spell to make one clone. He has also stated that he is willing to entertain rather liberal wording for the wish spell.

So here is my thought process and this largely depends on the DM letting me have probably a good many years of set up time leading to the point of the start of the story but let me know if my logic is flawed anywhere. (Assume for the moment money and materials would not be an issue for this character. Also this is all in good fun with my Dm its sort of a joke between us at this point of how creative I can be over the standard lets break wizard shenanigans already out there.

Its an ancient dragon empire, so lets be a permanent dragon with all the perks of the wizard caster.

Method 1 - Cast true-polymorph, make it permanent and have the ice clone use wish to give it access to my characters abilities and spells Or simply wish for the ablity to switch back and forth between tthe two forms, oh and Wish to make the true polymorph truly permanent where dispel can no longer apply.

Method 2 - Turn into dragon use its change shape ability to turn into a archmage for 18th spell lv ability

Method 3 - (The super cheese lets kind of break this all the way moment) Whatever method of above that works but do the following, Turn into an Ancient Brass dragon, build a lair, become CR21 Repeat above method turn into an ancient black, re-establish lair and so forth. With a quick glance I think the max you can get doing this is a CR 24 or 25 dragon, its late so don't ask me to remember which one.

I think by the rules all these methods are possible, they are just different levels of well.. silly :)

Second goal - become immortal with careful batman like planning or in short hiding my clone spell really really well :P

If the above method holds true and I am allowed to establish a lair. It would be really out of the way, almost impractical to get to. Maybe even only accessing it through a portal ring. (Not sure what the best way to hide it and keep it as secure as possible)

Once a super secret hidden room is made establish a clone chamber with all the protection and bells and whistles. Depending on the above method of dragon silliness I am allowed. It might be a dragon clone or a humanoid clone of my original form set to a young age. If upon death the fortress of rebirth cheese will act as safe heaven until I can re-grow a new clone then go venturing out into the world again.

[LeonBH]

It all seems to hang on the very thin thread of "the DM will definitely allow this and not apply an alternative interpretation which will result in a nerf or some big problems happening."

Playing with the Wish spell is very dangerous, after all.

If your DM is willing to allow you to accomplish all that anyway, you can just use one Wish (cast by the Simularcum) to wish for it: "I wish I was an Ancient Red Dragon with the ability to morph back into my Wizard form at will, possessing all my spell slots and normal class abilities and the ability to return to my Ancient Red Dragon form, while also possessing all my mental faculties such as intelligence, wisdom, and charisma at all times regardless of my form."

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Method 3 - (The super cheese lets kind of break this all the way moment) Whatever method of above that works but do the following, Turn into an Ancient Brass dragon, build a lair, become CR21 Repeat above method turn into an ancient black, re-establish lair and so forth. With a quick glance I think the max you can get doing this is a CR 24 or 25 dragon, its late so don't ask me to remember which one.


Nope. Monster Manual errata (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/MM_Errata.pdf): "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects."



It all seems to hang on the very thin thread of "the DM will definitely allow this and not apply an alternative interpretation which will result in a nerf or some big problems happening."

Playing with the Wish spell is very dangerous, after all.

If your DM is willing to allow you to accomplish all that anyway, you can just use one Wish (cast by the Simularcum) to wish for it: "I wish I was an Ancient Red Dragon with the ability to morph back into my Wizard form at will, possessing all my spell slots and normal class abilities and the ability to return to my Ancient Red Dragon form, while also possessing all my mental faculties such as intelligence, wisdom, and charisma at all times regardless of my form."

'Spell slots' and 'class abilities' do not exist in-universe.

[Vingelot]

Nope. Monster Manual errata (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/MM_Errata.pdf): "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects."


Since the thread is titled "shenanigans": Wish you were to gain te form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

'Spell slots' and 'class abilities' do not exist in-universe.

If spell slots don't exist in-universe, Wizards can't cast spells. If class abilities don't exist in-universe, Wizards can't ever cast rituals. So, since Wizards can cast spells and perform rituals, they do exist in-universe.

[Davrix]

It all seems to hang on the very thin thread of "the DM will definitely allow this and not apply an alternative interpretation which will result in a nerf or some big problems happening."

Playing with the Wish spell is very dangerous, after all.

If your DM is willing to allow you to accomplish all that anyway, you can just use one Wish (cast by the Simularcum) to wish for it: "I wish I was an Ancient Red Dragon with the ability to morph back into my Wizard form at will, possessing all my spell slots and normal class abilities and the ability to return to my Ancient Red Dragon form, while also possessing all my mental faculties such as intelligence, wisdom, and charisma at all times regardless of my form."

I have to run it by him later when I see him again but he did say he would allow wishes as long as I had iron clad wording behind it.


Nope. Monster Manual errata (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/MM_Errata.pdf): "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects."


'Spell slots' and 'class abilities' do not exist in-universe.

The in-universe statement makes no sense to me. As for the errata, its not really something this DM cares much about. He prefers making rulings on a case by case basis from the books as printed that we have on hand and sense I have a first printing of the MM that little tidbit is not in it. (as I said this is sort of a fun little contest between us and part of the deal was use books as is with maybe some UA or KP books) + he has already said i would have the legendary actions when I asked him about TP but I havn't gone over the wish mechanics with him yet. Which he may just allow because the change shape ability would let me simply assume the archmage NPC class and yea that's an 18th lv spellcaster. its not as ideal as say an actually lv 20 caster but hey its still silly as hell that way. So he may just let it fly.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Step 1: Be an Illusionist

Step 2: Choose Silent Image for your level 1 Spell Mastery

Step 3: Make non concentration wall of forces all day. If one isn't strong enough, make them double layered.

I'd suggest a stat array of 8/18/14/20/12/8, ASIC/Feats: Alert, +4 int, Resilience (Con), Lucky, +2 dex

Counterspell, Dispel Magic and Major Image are good choices for signature spells. Your level 2 spell mastery is probably best invested in Misty Step because blindsight is a problem at level 20. Invisibility and Mirror Image are decent choices too (but are countered by blindsight/blindsense).

Lucky and Alert let you win Initiative pretty much all the time. Just start casting those nasty disabling spells and you should win pretty much any fight. Choose higher level spells specifically to combat creatures that can't be trapped by your Walls of Force (Maze, Force Cage etc.).

This should be broken enough :)

[Shulk]

Step 1: Be proficient in transmutation
Step 2: Reach level 20
Step 3: Learn Time stop.
Step 4: Use wish to buff your time stop so you can interact with things during stopped time
Step 5: Abuse the hell out of time stop

[the secret fire]

Where is that wacky dude and his The Nameless King cheeze when you need him?

[Millface]

I don't like being a debbie downer, of course, but when it comes to Wish I do always implement some pretty strict wording policies.

The players know that the more they try to wish for in terms of power balance in the game world, the more I will try to bunk it up based on any loose wording they leave me.

"And" and "Or" and "Also" immediately cut off the Wish. "I wish I was an ancient red dragon and I kept my spellcasting abilities" would cut off at and and I'd then just deal with "I wish I was an ancient red dragon." Then I'd likely give them the wish, but remove their memories and have them implanted with new ones that would more or less ensure that they acted exactly like a natural born dragon would act, so as to not mess with the balance of powers in the world. A PC Ancient Red could have a completely massive and unexpected effect.

Essentially Mystra has final say in wishes, and I play it so that I try my best as a DM to say yes without drastically altering the good/evil balance.

The shenanigans I do allow fall more along the lines of letting my players craft new spells, following the same above rules about power balance. Once I look at what they want to make and balance it out to my liking it becomes part of the world. Andarfel's Forked Lightning (a lightning based scorching ray) is one example, and that becomes a spell that future players can take like any other once enough time has passed that it feasibly has become mainstream like Melf and Leamund's stuff.

[Davrix]

I don't like being a debbie downer, of course, but when it comes to Wish I do always implement some pretty strict wording policies.

The players know that the more they try to wish for in terms of power balance in the game world, the more I will try to bunk it up based on any loose wording they leave me.

"And" and "Or" and "Also" immediately cut off the Wish. "I wish I was an ancient red dragon and I kept my spellcasting abilities" would cut off at and and I'd then just deal with "I wish I was an ancient red dragon." Then I'd likely give them the wish, but remove their memories and have them implanted with new ones that would more or less ensure that they acted exactly like a natural born dragon would act, so as to not mess with the balance of powers in the world. A PC Ancient Red could have a completely massive and unexpected effect.

Essentially Mystra has final say in wishes, and I play it so that I try my best as a DM to say yes without drastically altering the good/evil balance.

The shenanigans I do allow fall more along the lines of letting my players craft new spells, following the same above rules about power balance. Once I look at what they want to make and balance it out to my liking it becomes part of the world. Andarfel's Forked Lightning (a lightning based scorching ray) is one example, and that becomes a spell that future players can take like any other once enough time has passed that it feasibly has become mainstream like Melf and Leamund's stuff.

I can see that and respect it greatly. As i said this is sort of a short one shot (world is going to end) sort of deal so a little more fun is being had. But I am curious to see your take on something along the lines of say the method of using TP to assume the form of an ancient Brass dragon. Then using wish I would say... "I wish to have access to all of Bob the wizards abilities that I possessed one hour ago. (assume I would give exact time to you at the table.)


Where is that wacky dude and his The Nameless King cheeze when you need him?

Dear god don't mention that guy you might actually summon him and I dont think at any point have i said "OPTIMIZATION" in this thread. This is just cheeky wizard silliness abuse at lv 20 for a character that is most likely going to die at the end of a few weeks of play.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If spell slots don't exist in-universe, Wizards can't cast spells. If class abilities don't exist in-universe, Wizards can't ever cast rituals. So, since Wizards can cast spells and perform rituals, they do exist in-universe.

Wrong. Both are metagame abstractions that reflect something that exists in universe. But people do not talk about spell slots or class abilities in-universe, any more than they talk about 'hit point damage' rather than 'being stabbed'.

[Davrix]

Oh and small update after discussing things with the DM

We came up with halfway deal that I'm perfectly happy with. I can assume, using the shape change ability the dragons get to assume my lv 20 wizard form using the character HP and stats vs the dragons. This is the only way he gets to use magic. So yea still going to be rather silly but at least there is some sort of check against a Ancient dragon tossing spells while up in the air.

Also were going to let him progress through age as the backstory we have come up with has a fair amount of time having passed before the start of the story so he is having me make a few rolls to see how established my lair is and how high of a CR I wind up with as a dragon. We also made the decision that if True polymorph lasted longer then a year it no longer becomes dispensable. So we will see how those roles work out.

[LeonBH]

"And" and "Or" and "Also" immediately cut off the Wish. "I wish I was an ancient red dragon and I kept my spellcasting abilities" would cut off at and and I'd then just deal with "I wish I was an ancient red dragon." Then I'd likely give them the wish, but remove their memories and have them implanted with new ones that would more or less ensure that they acted exactly like a natural born dragon would act, so as to not mess with the balance of powers in the world. A PC Ancient Red could have a completely massive and unexpected effect.

While that's a good start, it doesn't stop working around it in other ways.

"I wish I was an ancient red dragon that possesses my spellcasting abilities" or "I wish I was a spellcasting ancient red dragon whose spellcasting abilities are the same as mine"


Wrong. Both are metagame abstractions that reflect something that exists in universe. But people do not talk about spell slots or class abilities in-universe, any more than they talk about 'hit point damage' rather than 'being stabbed'.

Wrong. The metagame abstraction corresponds to something that exists in the game, thus the metagame abstractions exist.

If you acknowledge that they are representations of real things in-universe, then it's easy to find a way to state the in-universe things without referring to the metagame abstractions. Ask the DM how his NPCs refer to "spell slots" and steal his words.


We came up with halfway deal that I'm perfectly happy with. I can assume, using the shape change ability the dragons get to assume my lv 20 wizard form using the character HP and stats vs the dragons. This is the only way he gets to use magic. So yea still going to be rather silly but at least there is some sort of check against a Ancient dragon tossing spells while up in the air.

Also were going to let him progress through age as the backstory we have come up with has a fair amount of time having passed before the start of the story so he is having me make a few rolls to see how established my lair is and how high of a CR I wind up with as a dragon. We also made the decision that if True polymorph lasted longer then a year it no longer becomes dispensable. So we will see how those roles work out.

So you ended up not needing Wish, after all. :smallsmile:

[Lord8Ball]

Glyph of warding abuse.
1. Create a glyph of warding that stores the teleportation circle spell on top of an unactivated teleportation circle. Make one side permanent and one side temporary to teleport your enemies wherever the hell you want with no way back to you. Abandoned island much. :smallbiggrin: To be even more of an ass put the second circle under an overhang in a volcano or mountain so that your enemies fall to their death Sheogorath style.
2. Create a glyph of warding to summon a demiplane with some of your undead reserve and prisoners to swarm them.
3. Use glyph of warding which stores mirage arcane to make the land eternally dark and difficult terrain while you send monsters to snipe them from a distance(flying is a plus).
4. Glyph of warding plane shift... (player perspective) Oh look a deck of cards "You triggered my trap card!" OMG wtf. From there you can try demon realm, positive/negative energy plane, plane of fire/water, custom plane.
5. Put whatever spell you want in it can go up to ninth lol. Trap everything.
6. Stack as many buffs as possible which happen to now be non concentration because of the glyph.
Create your own dungeon
7. Siraculum any monster you want + walls of stone.
8. In your dungeon create doors with nothing but stone behind them, but behind one of those stone walls is a secret passage. Or an empty room with with a hidden secret passage behind a wall of stone on whichever wall.

[Davrix]

So you ended up not needing Wish, after all. :smallsmile:

Well yes and no, he agreed with my logic behind its use and he is even letting me work on the scaling up loop hole with the CR increase by turning into different ancient dragons and establishing lair's heh. He's been at this for about 500 years or so now so I think I'm settling on a CR 25 gold or silver not sure which yet. Though the wizard form will still be lv 20 it wont change and I'm locked from turning into anything else based on its CR which I feel is a fair stipulation in all this Wizard Cheesiness.

But I am sort of bad with the monster math when the CR is that high.

The stat block for a AG is CR 24, what do I boost to make it CR 25?

Oh and as a side note he is having me design a NPC that is kind of the center point (Of ending the world) But he wants it at LV 30 if I can figure it out, anyone got any good idea's on how to manage that or should I just build a CR 30 monster for the NPC ?