How do you build a solid tank?

[EliteChoboHax]

Hello everyone

I have recently started a new character and im trying to build it into a capable and deadly tank. We are a super lowkey group, we barely have any money, magic items will be something that we go through long and hard quests for if we are so lucky at a later stage. No exotic materials and magic items available as standard.

What i have for now, is a human fighter, using a bastard sword 1handed (Free feat due to backstory), a Heavy Steel Shield (or Tower Shield when one is available to me to borrow from the army we are conscripted to, for now i cannot afford to purchase my own) and a Scale Mail.

My first level feats i spent on Power Attack, Cleave and Cleaving Finish and at level 2 i have, so far, opted into Weapon Focus for that added to-hit chance.

What would you recommend for going further ahead, bearing in mind that i want to be the tank of the group (Other members are a Rogue and a Barbarian). Im looking for general feat ideas up to around level 12'ish, ignoring any stat requirements for the feats as those are not something we follow very tightly and even other pre-reqs are not required at times either, as we have the option of RP'ing our way to fullfilling those, like our Rogue befriending a local alchemist and this being able to pick up the Brew Potion feat at level 3, without being a caster.

I have been looking at the Shield Focus line and i have to say, it sounds great, but i was wondering what you thought would be options to look at as well.

Thank you in advance for some good recommendations, im usually not disappointed in here :)

[stack]

Might help to know what sources are available. Judging by your post, I am guessing the group is fairly low optimization (not a bad thing, just gauging expectations) and probably sticking with the hardcover books or even just base and APG.

Tanking is difficult. There is no agro mechanic, so reach is more effective. Of course, if the DM has enemies direct attacks toward you, the high AC dude in front, great. If not, all the armor in the world won't stop enemies from ignoring you and hitting bigger threats. So second question is, does AC tanking work in your game?

[EliteChoboHax]

Might help to know what sources are available. Judging by your post, I am guessing the group is fairly low optimization (not a bad thing, just gauging expectations) and probably sticking with the hardcover books or even just base and APG.

Tanking is difficult. There is no agro mechanic, so reach is more effective. Of course, if the DM has enemies direct attacks toward you, the high AC dude in front, great. If not, all the armor in the world won't stop enemies from ignoring you and hitting bigger threats. So second question is, does AC tanking work in your game?

We are using pretty much all sources (The PF SRD online in general), thus we are not low optimization, but we dont stress the point of building the most OP thing we can get our hands on. for my own purposes, i just want to get beefy and still be able to dish out damage, which fits the RPG concept of a Fighter trying to achieve honor and glory, to become accepted into the Solamnic Knights (We are playing Dragonlance).

For AC tanking, that works in our games usually. The GM regularly focuses me during combat, as i try to be the first guy to charge into combat and get surrounded by enemies. For now, as we are fighting low intelligent monsters like goblins and bandits, they do not focus the rogue and barbarian during combat as much as the armor glad fighter with the battle cry. We also try to, when we are able, line up intelligently, so that i take the brunt of the assaults while my companions steer clear to hit their flanks.

[Recherché]

If you don't mind going caster, something a little more unusual and exotic would be an Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-Or-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot). It's a fairly flexible set of builds but the base idea is a couple of levels in Oracle of Life let's you pick up the Life Link. Life link means that every turn your allies are missing hit points you automatically give them some of yours. Then you add onto that levels in Paladin which gives you lay on hands. You can lay on hands yourself as a swift action to replenish the hp you're giving away to your allies to heal them, thus turning yourself into the hp battery of the entire group. Effectively you keep everyone else in the party from taking much damage. And you still have heavy armor and most of your actions for attacking enemies.

It's not exactly a traditional tank but Oradin can be great way to keep everyone else in the party going while still being mostly a warrior.

[EliteChoboHax]

If you don't mind going caster, something a little more unusual and exotic would be an Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-Or-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot). It's a fairly flexible set of builds but the base idea is a couple of levels in Oracle of Life let's you pick up the Life Link. Life link means that every turn your allies are missing hit points you automatically give them some of yours. Then you add onto that levels in Paladin which gives you lay on hands. You can lay on hands yourself as a swift action to replenish the hp you're giving away to your allies to heal them, thus turning yourself into the hp battery of the entire group. Effectively you keep everyone else in the party from taking much damage. And you still have heavy armor and most of your actions for attacking enemies.

It's not exactly a traditional tank but Oradin can be great way to keep everyone else in the party going while still being mostly a warrior.

Its a nice concept, sadly Oracles and Paladins do not exist in our world, so thats a no go. I just need ideas for a pure Fighter. No other classes are of interest as we do not multiclass ever (unless it makes sense and it has been thoroughly RP'ed out)

[upho]

So, single-classed human fighter defender with dreams of joining the Order of the Crown (or even Sword?), teaming up with a barb and a rogue in an all Paizo/no 3PP material, low-magic 1-12 level game in a Dragonlance setting?

Roughly speaking, I think you've got two basic paths to choose between:

Sword 'n' Board Path
This focuses more on full attack damage than on control/party defense, using TWF and shield fighting feats culminating in Shield Master. Works best if you're allowed to switch/retrain into the siegebreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/siegebreaker-fighter-archetype) archetype (only requires dropping your 1st level fighter feat), allowing free action bull rush and overrun combos dealing plenty of extra damage and generating lots of AoOs. Typically strong against NPC enemies with low CMD of your own size or smaller, but without some pretty specific magic items, the flawed mechanics of Shield Slam means it unfortunately loses most of its omph against larger opponents, most monsters and "fighter type" enemies similar to yourself.

Pole Path
This focuses more on control/party defense and AoOs than on full attack damage, using a reach weapon with dirty trick and trip feats, culminating in Dirty Trick Master to potentially take two or more enemies out of the fight every round. The investments will remain fully or partially effective against a very wide range of opponents. (Can be combined with a light or heavy shield via Shield Brace, although it imposes a -1 or -2 attack penalty unless/until you can get your hands on a mithral version.)

In terms of pure combat effectiveness, the Pole Path is most likely going to be stronger, but also demand more feats.

Regardless of which route you take, you could boost it with extra power and utility from the mutation warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior) archetype, and potentially complement it with the eldritch guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype) archetype to gain a fighting partner and potentially excellent spy and companion. And considering the low magic nature of your game, I strongly recommend you get the Warrior Spirit via Advanced Weapon Training first thing at 5th level.

Finally, I suggest you stay away from the tower shield. Although the Mobile Bulwark Style feats makes it a more viable choice, it's very feat intensive to make worthwhile, and basically makes it impossible for you to wield a two-handed (reach) weapon effectively.

Let me know which one you're more interested in and I'll be happy to go into further detail, though I would also need to know your ability scores and which changes to previous choices you could be allowed to make (if any).

[Treblain]

Reach and tripping are the best ways to affect enemies moving around you, and Shield Brace is one way to wield a reach weapon and a shield (another is Mutation Warrior to get a third arm at level 7). Lunge is valuable once it's available so you have way more flexibility in how you position yourself, plus it helps keep your cleave attacks from getting wasted if there are no other enemies within your normal reach. Felling Smash is a way to trip and do damage in one attack.

Check out weapon and armor mastery feats and the advanced weapon and armor training options (which can be taken as feats to get them early). Cut/Smash From the Air to protect your allies from ranged attacks, Difficult Swings so enemies are unable to 5-foot step to maneuver around you. If your lack of magic armor/shields is going to continue, there's an advanced armor training that lets you craft your own which would give you an interesting noncombat role in your party.

[SangoProduction]

Take the Guardian Sphere in Spheres of Power. Like. Just take all of it. It's pretty decent.

[EliteChoboHax]

So, single-classed human fighter defender with dreams of joining the Order of the Crown (or even Sword?), teaming up with a barb and a rogue in an all Paizo/no 3PP material, low-magic 1-12 level game in a Dragonlance setting?

Roughly speaking, I think you've got two basic paths to choose between:

Sword 'n' Board Path
This focuses more on full attack damage than on control/party defense, using TWF and shield fighting feats culminating in Shield Master. Works best if you're allowed to switch/retrain into the siegebreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/siegebreaker-fighter-archetype) archetype (only requires dropping your 1st level fighter feat), allowing free action bull rush and overrun combos dealing plenty of extra damage and generating lots of AoOs. Typically strong against NPC enemies with low CMD of your own size or smaller, but without some pretty specific magic items, the flawed mechanics of Shield Slam means it unfortunately loses most of its omph against larger opponents, most monsters and "fighter type" enemies similar to yourself.

Pole Path
This focuses more on control/party defense and AoOs than on full attack damage, using a reach weapon with dirty trick and trip feats, culminating in Dirty Trick Master to potentially take two or more enemies out of the fight every round. The investments will remain fully or partially effective against a very wide range of opponents. (Can be combined with a light or heavy shield via Shield Brace, although it imposes a -1 or -2 attack penalty unless/until you can get your hands on a mithral version.)

In terms of pure combat effectiveness, the Pole Path is most likely going to be stronger, but also demand more feats.

Regardless of which route you take, you could boost it with extra power and utility from the mutation warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior) archetype, and potentially complement it with the eldritch guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype) archetype to gain a fighting partner and potentially excellent spy and companion. And considering the low magic nature of your game, I strongly recommend you get the Warrior Spirit via Advanced Weapon Training first thing at 5th level.

Finally, I suggest you stay away from the tower shield. Although the Mobile Bulwark Style feats makes it a more viable choice, it's very feat intensive to make worthwhile, and basically makes it impossible for you to wield a two-handed (reach) weapon effectively.

Let me know which one you're more interested in and I'll be happy to go into further detail, though I would also need to know your ability scores and which changes to previous choices you could be allowed to make (if any).

The Pole path will be a no go, as my character is required to use a Bastard Sword (Well not required by law, but a strong backstory will make him use it over any weapon)- The Siege Breaker sounds interesting and the Bullrush Overrun stuff is neat, but we try to avoid going heavily into combat maneuvres, as we feel it tends to bog down the flow of combat when it ensues, not saying we cant use them, just prefer to not make combat too rules heavy, for the imagined cinematic effect. But yes, Sword and Board is definately the path i am interested in

My stats are as follows: 18 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 12 wis, 15 cha. And what i would be able to change, is the weapon focus feat i am considering at level 2 and probably all the level 1 feats as well, if i really wanted to. But i gotta admit, Cleave and Cleaving Finish have been doing a stellar job as we are fighting bands of bandits and goblins and will be for the foreseeable future

[stack]

Take the Guardian Sphere in Spheres of Power. Like. Just take all of it. It's pretty decent.

OP said no 3pp, so suggesting disallowed sources isn't particularly helpful.

[Kurald Galain]

I suppose the spell Major Creation would do the trick... :smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

@EliteChoboHax:

Without the aid of aggro/mechanical tanking, it will always come down to tactical positioning, martial control and "incentive taking".

Martial control is basically all about area denial. Reach, AoOs and Tripping will get you there without too much of an investment. Now if you have an arcane caster in your party, all is fine, Enlarge Person is your best buddy.

As you're playing a Human Fighter, you can actually go deep into feat chains. Fighters are actually pretty good at two-weapon fighting, which combines nicely with Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Mastery. Going from there will get us into the whole slew of Disruptive and Spellbreaker, Missile Shield and Ray Shield. Add Shield Brace to use a Glaive, Longspear or (Dragon)Lance with your shield and you're golden. It´s weird, but the Viking archetype is actually quite good at using shields and it´s a way to get Come and Get Me for some serious tanking.

[stack]

The Dirty Fighting feat is a handy way to get around Combat Expertise (and 13 INT) if going the tripping route.

[Dekion]

I don't think it's considered overpowered since the eratta, so unless your DM bans it, you have a fairly high Charisma for a Fighter and could probably use the Antagonize feat. Sadly, it means you will be forgoing attacking when you do, but it provides some "tanking" mechanics. The diplomacy portion is your best overall bet, but the intimidate portion works in a pinch when you have to save an ally from the focus of an enemy. However, it's not perfect, as Diplomacy isn't a Fighter class skill, it's mind-affecting, and doesn't work on creatures with low Intelligence or that don't understand you. But it seems that a lot of other control build options are out.

[Kurald Galain]

Diplomacy isn't a Fighter class skill

It is if you take the Seasoned Commander, Tactician, or Vengeful Hunter archetype. SC in particular is pretty good.

[Dekion]

It is if you take the Seasoned Commander, Tactician, or Vengeful Hunter archetype. SC in particular is pretty good.

Agreed, and I probably should have been specific to say that it isn't a class skill for the "basic" fighter.

[DMVerdandi]

> Call Out feat to initiate 1v1 duels with monsters that fail a roll against your intimidate
>Intimidating Prowess feat to add strength bonus to intimidate checks
>Combat reflexes feat so you can make more than one attack of opportunity per round
>Stand still feat so that anyone who tries to move past you and threatens your squares gets halted
>Bodyguard feat [really to just get in harms way]
>In harm's way feat so that you can take an attack aimed at any adjacent ally
>Cornugon smashfeat to intimidate when power attacking
>Dazzling display feat to intimidate all within 30 feet
>Disheartening display feat to increase fear effects by 1

These are not in order, but most of them don't require much.
Definitely start with call out, combat reflexes and intimidating prowess though.

While I have technically heard that there was no aggro mechanic, it looks like there is a little bit of one. Focusing on intimidate will allow you to more easily make your call out checks.

And while you won't be TOO much of a combat monster, you will most definitely be horrifying. Cornugon smash alone is just a fantastic debuff.
I added bodyguard and stand still since part of a tank's job is taking the brunt of the attack for the party members.




Personally, If you aren't stuck as far as getting archetypes, I would go for martial master. It will give you essentially 1 minute's use of any situational feats you need. Alternatively, Tactician if using teamwork feats is more appealing.


As far as advanced armor training, master armorer, adaptable training(intimidate), and Armored confidence.

[CharonsHelper]

Monks can get crazy high defences if you build them right. Especially if you go Dwarf with Steel Soul, you can get an extra +5 to all saves vs magic.

[Tuvarkz]

I have to bring up that with 1pp only, your character will never "tank", at most you'll be a bulky character that can occasionally block a passage or something, but from your party, you are a bunch of melee characters, who are ought to have their own bulk each.
I'd suggest going for Shield Brace (Which lets you 2hand a polearm alongside a shield); and the Cut from the Air/Smash from the Air lineup, as the latter does let you protect your allies from ranged attacks. That being said, you'll need a solid DEX score for that part to work, or to go with the High Guardian archetype so you get Str to AoOs

[upho]

The Pole path will be a no go, as my character is required to use a Bastard Sword (Well not required by law, but a strong backstory will make him use it over any weapon) /snip/ But yes, Sword and Board is definately the path i am interested inOk, bastard sword 'n' board it is.


The Siege Breaker sounds interesting and the Bullrush Overrun stuff is neat, but we try to avoid going heavily into combat maneuvres, as we feel it tends to bog down the flow of combat when it ensues, not saying we cant use them, just prefer to not make combat too rules heavy, for the imagined cinematic effect.I understand, each player rolling many times with different values against different defenses can make combat so slow it's easy to lose immersion. Unfortunately, you won't be much of a defender (tank) if you don't go beyond making full attacks and damage rolls. And the same would actually be true even if you were only interested in maximizing damage and didn't give a crap about protecting your allies. But thankfully, I actually think you can have the best of both worlds; with just a little bit of preparation and a few minor house rules, you can easily speed things up considerably while keeping the original mechanics largely intact. I'll give you details if you're still interested in going sword 'n' board - or as a defender/tank in general - once you've read the rest of this post.

Feats
The following make up the basis of sword 'n' board (plus not quite as vital add-ons): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Master (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush).

Especially TWF and Improved Shield Bash make up the bulk of the reason why you'd want a shield instead of using your bastard sword in both hands. And Shield Slam can be great if it allows you to add your CMB and the bull rush attempt counts as a combat maneuver check, instead of only adding your attack bonus and not being a check like the current RAW says. As mentioned, the usefulness of this feat is highly questionable if it's run as written, and it will likely create highly binary results depending on the opponent; nothing will happen on say 85% of the attempts (especially when you're in most need of the boost), while on 15% of them it will simply lead to pointless overkill (of an opponent you could've easily handled anyways).

Shield Master is fantastic, but since your game likely won't continue beyond 12th level, it's more of a cap-stone that won't see as much use.

On top of those, you'll want one or more control/debuff feat sets to improve your defender abilities. Three of the best options are:

1. Power-Tripper Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip and Greater Trip. Add Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick, Dirty Trick Master*, Kitsune Style, Kitsune Tricks and Kitsune Vengeance for truly hardcore lock-down.
2. Demoralizer Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash and max ranks in Intimidate. Add Fiendskin and Soulless Gaze* to make you absolutely terrifying, and terrifyingly effective against virtually all enemies not immune to fear.
*As written, these may very well be too strong for your game, though I'll be happy to give house rule suggestions which make them fun instead of problematic.

Adapting Your PC
The far greatest problem with your current build is your Dex. You need that to be 15 in order to get TWF, which is crucial for an effective sword 'n' board style and a prerequisite for Shield Slam and Shield Master. So you're gonna have to make some changes to your stats. That is of course unless your GM allows you to grab TWF anyways, which IMO actually wouldn't be unreasonable at all considering the game's limitations on multiclassing and magic items. (In a more standard game, you'd normally be able to get TWF without the Dex through a 1-level dip into another class, or to more easily improve your Dex with a magic belt or similar.)


My stats are as follows: 18 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 12 wis, 15 cha.I'd suggest you ask your GM to let you swap your Dex and Cha values, or (better) to allow you to ignore the Dex 15 prerequisite of TWF. (And BTW, did you roll these? They're the equivalent of a 28 point-buy, a whopping 8 points above the standard!)


And what i would be able to change, is the weapon focus feat i am considering at level 2 and probably all the level 1 feats as well, if i really wanted to.Regardless of whether you decide to go with any of my other suggestions here, I recommend you stay away from Weapon Focus. It's generally only worth it if it's a prerequisite for something really good you want (or if you can get it from a cheap item).


But i gotta admit, Cleave and Cleaving Finish have been doing a stellar job as we are fighting bands of bandits and goblins and will be for the foreseeable futureAnd a nifty feature of the fighter is that you have the option to retrain them at 4th and/or 8th level if you don't think any other options will be better at this point. Although if you're going to be a sword 'n' board defender, you'll likely want to use these slots for two of the many options I listed above.

Before I continue, I'd like to know whether TWF is an option for you. If it's not, you're frankly going to be much better off simply two-handing your bastard sword, which of course comes with some quite different strengths and weaknesses as well as different preferable build options. (And as mentioned by Treblain, you may still carry a shield just for the AC bonus at 7th if you go with the mutation warrior archetype and get the Vestigial Arm discovery.)

[CharonsHelper]

I don't think it's considered overpowered since the eratta, so unless your DM bans it, you have a fairly high Charisma for a Fighter and could probably use the Antagonize feat.

It actually works really well for a buffing bard. Bards can be pretty tanky, and after you throw out your buffs you may not have much to do other than force people to attack you.

[EliteChoboHax]

Ok, bastard sword 'n' board it is.

I understand, each player rolling many times with different values against different defenses can make combat so slow it's easy to lose immersion. Unfortunately, you won't be much of a defender (tank) if you don't go beyond making full attacks and damage rolls. And the same would actually be true even if you were only interested in maximizing damage and didn't give a crap about protecting your allies. But thankfully, I actually think you can have the best of both worlds; with just a little bit of preparation and a few minor house rules, you can easily speed things up considerably while keeping the original mechanics largely intact. I'll give you details if you're still interested in going sword 'n' board - or as a defender/tank in general - once you've read the rest of this post.

Feats
The following make up the basis of sword 'n' board (plus not quite as vital add-ons): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam and Shield Master (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush).

Especially TWF and Improved Shield Bash make up the bulk of the reason why you'd want a shield instead of using your bastard sword in both hands. And Shield Slam can be great if it allows you to add your CMB and the bull rush attempt counts as a combat maneuver check, instead of only adding your attack bonus and not being a check like the current RAW says. As mentioned, the usefulness of this feat is highly questionable if it's run as written, and it will likely create highly binary results depending on the opponent; nothing will happen on say 85% of the attempts (especially when you're in most need of the boost), while on 15% of them it will simply lead to pointless overkill (of an opponent you could've easily handled anyways).

Shield Master is fantastic, but since your game likely won't continue beyond 12th level, it's more of a cap-stone that won't see as much use.

On top of those, you'll want one or more control/debuff feat sets to improve your defender abilities. Three of the best options are:

1. Power-Tripper Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip and Greater Trip. Add Improved Dirty Trick, Greater Dirty Trick, Dirty Trick Master*, Kitsune Style, Kitsune Tricks and Kitsune Vengeance for truly hardcore lock-down.
2. Demoralizer Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash and max ranks in Intimidate. Add Fiendskin and Soulless Gaze* to make you absolutely terrifying, and terrifyingly effective against virtually all enemies not immune to fear.
*As written, these may very well be too strong for your game, though I'll be happy to give house rule suggestions which make them fun instead of problematic.

Adapting Your PC
The far greatest problem with your current build is your Dex. You need that to be 15 in order to get TWF, which is crucial for an effective sword 'n' board style and a prerequisite for Shield Slam and Shield Master. So you're gonna have to make some changes to your stats. That is of course unless your GM allows you to grab TWF anyways, which IMO actually wouldn't be unreasonable at all considering the game's limitations on multiclassing and magic items. (In a more standard game, you'd normally be able to get TWF without the Dex through a 1-level dip into another class, or to more easily improve your Dex with a magic belt or similar.)

I'd suggest you ask your GM to let you swap your Dex and Cha values, or (better) to allow you to ignore the Dex 15 prerequisite of TWF. (And BTW, did you roll these? They're the equivalent of a 28 point-buy, a whopping 8 points above the standard!)

Regardless of whether you decide to go with any of my other suggestions here, I recommend you stay away from Weapon Focus. It's generally only worth it if it's a prerequisite for something really good you want (or if you can get it from a cheap item).

And a nifty feature of the fighter is that you have the option to retrain them at 4th and/or 8th level if you don't think any other options will be better at this point. Although if you're going to be a sword 'n' board defender, you'll likely want to use these slots for two of the many options I listed above.

Before I continue, I'd like to know whether TWF is an option for you. If it's not, you're frankly going to be much better off simply two-handing your bastard sword, which of course comes with some quite different strengths and weaknesses as well as different preferable build options. (And as mentioned by Treblain, you may still carry a shield just for the AC bonus at 7th if you go with the mutation warrior archetype and get the Vestigial Arm discovery.)

You are blowing me away with the details and help mate, i appreciate it - Let me try to sum it all up.

I did indeed roll my stats, we all did that, since we got sick of point arrays and point buy generic stuff.

Regarding stats, i've like them to stay as they are, as my character is working on a "leading roles" in the army we are conscripted to and i just like being a pretty boy and bedazzle of womenfolk on the side. I am sure my GM will not have a problem with me picking up TWF without the dex requirements, i do not foresee that to be an issue, as im sure he'd prefer that i keep the charisma for my character concept instead of forcing me to put it in dex and thus, making me even harder for him to hit. We dont stress the requirements that much thankfully, as long as we can make something we feel is sufficiently "cool" thematically.

The Power-Tripper idea sounds neat, but my character would never use dirty tricks in combat, he is far too honorable for that (Which might just end up with him dying, but thats part of the journey). The Demoralizer sounds much more appealing, i can see that as being a cool addition to the character.

I'd love to hear your houserules for the things you feel could benefit from that, as we will adopt most rules, if they make sense and make gameplay more dynamic and fast - We also autocrit without having to confirm (So does the badguys, which is kind of a pain for me, as when i get hit with my high AC, its almost always a critical, but we are trying to figure out a rule that doesnt require more rolling to still make having a high armor useful vs criticals)

I did consider retraining Cleaving Finish when i get level 4, as i have a feeling i wont be one-shotting/kill shotting alot of enemies from that point forward anyway

[upho]

Take the Guardian Sphere in Spheres of Power. Like. Just take all of it. It's pretty decent.
Reach, AoOs and Tripping will get you there without too much of an investment. Now if you have an arcane caster in your party, all is fine, Enlarge Person is your best buddy.

Add Shield Brace to use a Glaive, Longspear or (Dragon)Lance with
I'd suggest going for Shield Brace (Which lets you 2hand a polearm alongside a shield)
Monks can get crazy high defences if you build them right. Especially if you go Dwarf with:smallfrown:

Seriously people, please read up on the specifics of the OP's game and wishes before you post, and respect those specifics when giving advice. None of the above emphasized suggestions are applicable in this case, and I cannot see how they're helping in any other way.


I don't think it's considered overpowered since the eratta, so unless your DM bans it, you have a fairly high Charisma for a Fighter and could probably use the Antagonize feat. Sadly, it means you will be forgoing attacking when you do, but it provides some "tanking" mechanics. The diplomacy portion is your best overall bet, but the intimidate portion works in a pinch when you have to save an ally from the focus of an enemy. However, it's not perfect, as Diplomacy isn't a Fighter class skill, it's mind-affecting, and doesn't work on creatures with low Intelligence or that don't understand you. But it seems that a lot of other control build options are out.Yeah, this is tricky indeed. But on top of Antagonize's horrible standard action use and the other flaws you mention, the duration sucks. This is unfortunately most definitely not a good use of your turn. I think you'd be a far better "tank" by spending your resources on simply boosting your damage instead of wasting them on this.


List of sort of tank-ish feats cut for brewity
Definitely start with call out.While I assume you've mostly been trying to find stuff that could be used in place of real aggro mechanics and damage mitigation, quite a few of these suggestions are frankly questionable or poor advice IMO. For example, Call Out is a really bad use of a standard action in a very large majority of situations, especially without specific support from other options to make you exceptionally strong in a duel.


Cornugon smash alone is just a fantastic debuff.Nitpick: Cornugon Smash is perhaps fantastic when considering the free action use and the relatively few prereqs, especially when compared to the very low average quality of the competition. But the shaken condition by itself is by no means a "fantastic debuff" IMO (I'd call conditions such as panicked, dazed, confused, tied up, nauseated, stunned, cowering, helpless and dead "fantastic").


I added bodyguard and stand still since part of a tank's job is taking the brunt of the attack for the party members.IMO, Bodyguard doesn't provide a large enough boost without specific support (race traits etc) and its limitation to adjacent makes it too situational. And I think Stand Still is quite awful as there are very few applicable CMB boosters, and especially in a 1-12 level game, trip is a vastly superior use of an AoO in a very large majority of situations.


I suppose the spell Major Creation would do the trick... :smallbiggrin:Hey, that's an awesome idea!

*googles "tank"*

Crap, it doesn't seem to work. Wikipedia says the hull of an M1A2 Abrams "main battle tank" is 26' long, 12' wide and 8' high, with an armor thickness varying between 600 and 1,300 mm. So minimum CL around a few hundred or so? But maybe you can make it in pieces and put it together yourself, and then hop in, drive it like you stole it, and blow the dragon to bits really quickly before the duration ends (it does have a pretty decent land movement)?

Also, what hell does "120 mm L/44 M256A1 smoothbore gun (42 rounds)" mean? Where's the damage die and crit range?

[Elder_Basilisk]

A few notes here.

1. In terms of damage and exercising control through the threat of AoOs as well as dishing out full attack damage, I don't think that two weapon fighting is as essential as they seem to. It would help you deal damage, but it is rather feat intensive and you don't have the Dex for it. Especially since you don't anticipate going much past lvl 11, there are other good options for you (like cornugon smash) that you will be able to focus on in lieu of two weapon fighting with your shield.

Step up and that line of feats can also be nice if your version of control involves preventing spellcasters or archers from taking advantage of their abilities. Most casters (and archers) will depend on five foot step then cast when a fighter is waving four feet of steel in their face. Take away that option and they get much less effective. Step up, following step, and step up and strike can be effective but just step up can be good by itself and adding combat reflexes, stand still, disruptive and or spell breaker can make it even harder to avoid.

Sword and shield can be a good combo for moving past the enemy front line to mess things up for their Squishies too since the added AC of a shield makes the opportunity attacks less dangerous and makes it more likely that you will survive the front line collapsing on you.

2. Don't look at cleaving finish as only being useful when you one-shot foes. Sure, that's where it is most effective since it effectively doubles your attacks. However, there are quite a few situations where it will still be good. Consider a few scenarios.
1. The two-hit scenario. Round 1. Move and attack. Round 2. Cleave to attack two foes. Damage one enemy, then hit the enemy you hit last round which drops him. Cleaving finish into the other guy. Drop him too. Cleaving finish lets you drop two guys in two turna rather than one.
2. The allies scenario. It takes two or three hits to drop the enemy. Your rogue ally wins init and moves up to get a sneak attack on a flatfooted enemy. You move up and finish him off then cleaving finish to make an attack on another for. You still get an extra attack out of it because you coordinated your attacks with your allies.

[EliteChoboHax]

A few notes here.

1. In terms of damage and exercising control through the threat of AoOs as well as dishing out full attack damage, I don't think that two weapon fighting is as essential as they seem to. It would help you deal damage, but it is rather feat intensive and you don't have the Dex for it. Especially since you don't anticipate going much past lvl 11, there are other good options for you (like cornugon smash) that you will be able to focus on in lieu of two weapon fighting with your shield.

Step up and that line of feats can also be nice if your version of control involves preventing spellcasters or archers from taking advantage of their abilities. Most casters (and archers) will depend on five foot step then cast when a fighter is waving four feet of steel in their face. Take away that option and they get much less effective. Step up, following step, and step up and strike can be effective but just step up can be good by itself and adding combat reflexes, stand still, disruptive and or spell breaker can make it even harder to avoid.

Sword and shield can be a good combo for moving past the enemy front line to mess things up for their Squishies too since the added AC of a shield makes the opportunity attacks less dangerous and makes it more likely that you will survive the front line collapsing on you.

2. Don't look at cleaving finish as only being useful when you one-shot foes. Sure, that's where it is most effective since it effectively doubles your attacks. However, there are quite a few situations where it will still be good. Consider a few scenarios.
1. The two-hit scenario. Round 1. Move and attack. Round 2. Cleave to attack two foes. Damage one enemy, then hit the enemy you hit last round which drops him. Cleaving finish into the other guy. Drop him too. Cleaving finish lets you drop two guys in two turna rather than one.
2. The allies scenario. It takes two or three hits to drop the enemy. Your rogue ally wins init and moves up to get a sneak attack on a flatfooted enemy. You move up and finish him off then cleaving finish to make an attack on another for. You still get an extra attack out of it because you coordinated your attacks with your allies.

I do think that Cleaving Finish is still a good option past that stage, but its not as magnificent as it is right now and i would be willing to re-train that, for something more interesting in the long run. I just put a number of level 11 on the table, as we are running 3 adventures for level increase (roughly) and we play once a month. Level 11 was for Shield Master, as thats something i really think its cool. Also as mentioned earlier in my posts, i dont not require the dex for TWF, i would be able to grab that regardless of stats.

[upho]

You are blowing me away with the details and help mate, i appreciate itYou're welcome! And thanks a ton for the kind words!


I did indeed roll my stats, we all did that, since we got sick of point arrays and point buy generic stuff.Heh, if your PCs actually started to feel generic due to point-buy, I think some people would say that's one sure sign you guys have been playing far too much PF/D&D...

Which I wholeheartedly disagree with, of course, as there is no such thing as too much RPG! :smallwink:

(OT nerd stuff: Unless perhaps if your method for rolling is unusually generous or specifically tuned to reduce the standard deviation, I can't imagine that a set ranging from 12-16 is a very common thing. For example, I believe there's less than a 10% probability of the classic "4d6 drop lowest" resulting in no single score below 12.)


Regarding stats, i've like them to stay as they are, as my character is working on a "leading roles" in the army we are conscripted to and i just like being a pretty boy and bedazzle of womenfolk on the side. I am sure my GM will not have a problem with me picking up TWF without the dex requirements, i do not foresee that to be an issue, as im sure he'd prefer that i keep the charisma for my character concept instead of forcing me to put it in dex and thus, making me even harder for him to hit. We dont stress the requirements that much thankfully, as long as we can make something we feel is sufficiently "cool" thematically.This was pretty much exactly what I was hoping you'd say, as I think having all mental stats at 12 doesn't give you nearly as much to work with in terms of personality.

And as an additional bonus, the higher Cha can also be used to boost your combat mechanics.


The Power-Tripper idea sounds neat, but my character would never use dirty tricks in combat, he is far too honorable for that (Which might just end up with him dying, but thats part of the journey).Looking back at my previous post, I see it was a bit misleading. So to clarify, tripping can definitely be great without DT, especially in a 1-12 game. The purely mechanical reasons for mentioning the DT stuff as an optional add-on are:

DT goes especially well with the many AoOs the trip stuff is likely to generate. Basically, Greater Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-trip-combat-final/) and Kitsune Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-vengeance-combat-style) makes using DT much easier than it otherwise is.
DT is a great fall-back tool if you face enemies flying or too large to trip, since DT has no such limitations and can be used against practically any creature you'll ever meet.
DT is pretty much the most well-designed combat maneuver in PF IMO, and the fighter is exceptionally well equipped to make the most of it thanks to the many bonus feats and inherent bonuses to attacks.

And another good option is of course to focus more exclusively on DT instead of trip, but more resources are needed in order to make DT as effective a defender tool as trip is.

Regarding the flavor aspects of DT, I think one should look past the rather misleading name. If you do, I believe you'll agree that there's absolutely nothing which necessarily makes DT inherently less honorable than any other kind of melee attack. DT is intentionally written to allow players to use their own creativity in terms of how the specifics play out in the game world, and to choose between a number of set mechanical effects to reflect those specifics. And there's nothing stopping you from using the mechanics of DT to perform "honorable" acts in combat. Indeed, I think the explicit open-ended flavor of DT is one of its greatest strengths, and it sure does help make players more involved and combat more fun IME.

Likewise, even the paladin codes of Golarion's most honorable and knightly LG deities include no prohibitions on the use of DT. Which isn't weird at all IMO, since one could make a very good argument that a DT can - and often will - be a lot more honorable and merciful than a regular melee attack can, since DT allows you to reduce a hostile violent creature's ability to hurt others, or even to completely disable it, without having to actually hurt it or even scare it. On top of this, it typically presents a greater challenge than simply hitting your opponent with your sword. So if for example the Solamnic Knights would actually claim such combat moves are less honorable than say Power Attack with Cornugon Smash, I'd definitely view that as a sure sign of corruption.

And if the name does bug you, I suggest you simply ask your GM to change it into "Veteran Move", "Disabling Tactic" or something similar.

Anyhow, none of this means that I think you need to invest in DT stuff.

---------

Unfortunately, I need to stop here due to RL, but I'll continue as soon as I'm able to.

[Andreaz]

I have recently started a new character and im trying to build it into a capable and deadly tank. We are a super lowkey group, we barely have any money, magic items will be something that we go through long and hard quests for if we are so lucky at a later stage. No exotic materials and magic items available as standard.Make sure everyone, especially the dm, is aware that this is not how the game is meant to be played.

In the sense that CR relies on you having your full wealth at your disposal to get yourself equipment. Ceteris paribus, your party level will be one level under the normal. Two if you're still scrounging gold pieces after level 3.

Consider using an automatic bonus progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) if that's the case. It should bridge the gap and conveniently remove most of the christmas tree effect d&d has with magic items. Letting you use magic items as strange unique things worth campaigning for, instead of a side effect of adventuring.

Back to tanking advice.
For a pure fighter.
You'll be tripping with a guisarme or halberd. Not much else to do. As said already, tanking is mostly about being a nuisance the enemy can't get past. Attacks of opportunity and trips are more or less the only relevant core-only mechanics you can exploit for that.

Demoralizing has been suggested. It's handy too. With good positioning you can intimidating prowess or cornugon scare someone and let AoOs keep the rest in check. A couple rounds of all around penalties to attack and save is good. Just be prepared to not use it when you move past humanoids. Way too many fear immune things.


I hope this helps...Core is really bland for fighter types :/

[EliteChoboHax]

Make sure everyone, especially the dm, is aware that this is not how the game is meant to be played.

In the sense that CR relies on you having your full wealth at your disposal to get yourself equipment. Ceteris paribus, your party level will be one level under the normal. Two if you're still scrounging gold pieces after level 3.

Consider using an automatic bonus progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/) if that's the case. It should bridge the gap and conveniently remove most of the christmas tree effect d&d has with magic items. Letting you use magic items as strange unique things worth campaigning for, instead of a side effect of adventuring.

Back to tanking advice.
For a pure fighter.
You'll be tripping with a guisarme or halberd. Not much else to do. As said already, tanking is mostly about being a nuisance the enemy can't get past. Attacks of opportunity and trips are more or less the only relevant core-only mechanics you can exploit for that.

Demoralizing has been suggested. It's handy too. With good positioning you can intimidating prowess or cornugon scare someone and let AoOs keep the rest in check. A couple rounds of all around penalties to attack and save is good. Just be prepared to not use it when you move past humanoids. Way too many fear immune things.


I hope this helps...Core is really bland for fighter types :/

Thank you for the input

Regarding the CR vs wealth and such, we pretty much ignore that as following the bestiary, CR's and wealth per level and all that such, has very little to do with RP, but much more with playing a boardgame. Considering that the actual roleplaying aspect means much more to us than hack'n'slashing, we have all decided that we want a more realistic take on what we feel low level fantasy is all about.

As for tripping, that's pretty tough as my character is using a Bastard sword and wont be changing his weapon of choice for any reason.

The Demoralizer idea is a great concept and certainly one i am considering very much right now, as well as reworking my character into a Siegebreaker Archetype as well.

[Andreaz]

Not having a reach weapon won't break a tripping build, but it does limit your "aoe" capacity to hold enemies back. Anything you reach is threatened by the trips.



If at any moment the party clashes with an enemy, its cr will be overvalued compared to your levels because of the wealth deviation. I get that you guys don't design encounters around cr. But you guys have encounters. That's the primary measurement you have, can't ignore that. A CR 8 creature is more dangerous to you guys than it would be if you had proper itemization, regardless of why the creature is there.
In sum, I'm saying that you are going against design, so if you for any reason need to use something within the design it will bend and twist and probably show. Just be aware of that.

[Florian]

As for tripping, that's pretty tough as my character is using a Bastard sword and wont be changing his weapon of choice for any reason.

You will gladly switch weapons when facing something with damage reduction based on weapon type or material. It´s better to have a wooden club (or improved shield bash) ready when facing some skeletons or a rust monster, you don't want to go toe to toe with something with a damaging aura or most oozes and confronting a lycanthrope without some sort of silvered backup weapon is just silly.
That's the woes of a Fighter in a fantasy setting.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Keep in mind that limited wealth also has a definite impact on the viability of fighting styles.

Sword and board in particular depends upon having something resembling a standard wealth progression. With magic shields, you can get your AC to something monsters will have trouble hitting reliably. Without a normal progression, you will find that the +2 or +4 becomes less and less effective. Likewise, dealing enough damage with a one-handed weapon depends upon getting those bonuses (and on getting a way to beat DR and magic weapons are usually a part of that). Two handed weapons can keep up a little better in the damage game.

[EliteChoboHax]

You will gladly switch weapons when facing something with damage reduction based on weapon type or material. It´s better to have a wooden club (or improved shield bash) ready when facing some skeletons or a rust monster, you don't want to go toe to toe with something with a damaging aura or most oozes and confronting a lycanthrope without some sort of silvered backup weapon is just silly.
That's the woes of a Fighter in a fantasy setting.

My weapon is innately "magical" as its an heirloom, we are working on the idea that as i progress and learn more about combat and gain experience, these unknown magical properties will emerge over time. But we do not follow the creatures in the bestiary much. A skeleton is just as vulnerable to a sword as to a mace, albeit a piercer would not be effective, as that makes complete sense. But again, all encounters we have, are carefully planned by the GM, so that regardless of what we meet, we have options - Either in straight forward combat or by overcoming the encounter in another manner - Or you can always flee if the odds are truely against you. We play more for the story and achievements over the actual "challenges according to what some book says"

[Andreaz]

Please just list everything you do different. Asking for advice on a build requires us to understand well the rules under which you operate.

[Steve Edwards]

sack of hit points and Fast healing should do it.

[upho]

The Demoralizer sounds much more appealing, i can see that as being a cool addition to the character.Well, I think it's time to put together a hypothetical build outline of a "Demoralizing Sword 'n' Board Defender", and then have a look at what the combat mechanics might look like at say 6th and 11th level.

Scary Harry's fighting style requires tons of feats. This means that the best build order is a bit of a puzzle and may vary somewhat dependent on your preferences and the specifics of your game, and that the previously mentioned siegebreaker archetype with its much fewer compatible bonus feats is well beyond reach. The same is true also for any other archetype trading out more than one or perhaps two bonus feats for anything which doesn't directly help further the build's four parallel feat chains; shield fighting, bull rushing, tripping and demoralization.

SCARY HARRY LEVEL PROGRESSION


Level
Class Features
Feats B = bonus feat


1
-
Power AttackB, Improved Shield BashB, Two-Weapon Fighting


2
Bravery +1
Improved TripB


3
Armor training 1
Combat Reflexes


4
-
Shield FocusB


5
Weapon training 1: close weapon group
Improved Bull Rush


6
Bravery +2
Greater TripB


7
Advanced armor training: armored master
Shield Slam, Stumbling BashB


8
-
Advanced Weapon Training (warrior spirit)B


9
Advanced weapon training: armed bravery
Intimidating Prowess


10
Bravery +3
Cornugon SmashB


11]
Advanced armor training: armored master
Shield Master, Toppling BashB


12
-
Greater Bull RushB



SCARY HARRY, 6TH LEVEL
Disclaimer: Since nobody except perhaps your GM knows what to expect in terms of items at each level in your game, the only thing the following values could possibly tell you is whether they're high or low in relation to a "typical reasonably focused investment" value and the theoretical maximum value possible when discounting items. Which may not necessarily say anything about whether they'll actually be sufficient to make the build worthwhile in your game, since we also don't know what the approximate combat statistics of "typical" enemies will be at each level.

Initiative +1

Defense
AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (10 + 9 armor, 2 shield (light shield, Shield Focus), 1 dex)
hp 55 (5d10+10 hit dice, 12 Con, 6 favored class)
Fort 7, Ref 3, Will 3; +2 vs Fear

Offense
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Power Attack: mwk bastard sword +7/+2 (1d10+8, 19-20/x2), mwk light spiked shield +8 (1d4+4)
Special Combat Abilities Power Attack: 2 AoOs/round; trip CMB +12 (using shield), success provokes AoO

Bastard sword attack bonus: 6/1 bab, 4 str, 1 mwk, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -2 Power Attack; damage bonus: 4 str, 4 Power Attack
Light shield attack bonus: 6 bab, 4 str, 1 weapon training, 1 mwk, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -2 Power Attack; damage bonus: 2 str, 2 Power Attack
Trip CMB (shield): 8 as shield above, 4 Improved and Greater Trip

Skills Intimidate +11, 18 points in whatever

Ability Scores
Str 19 16 roll, 2 race, 1 level
Dex 12 12 roll
Con 14 14 roll
Int 12 12 roll
Wis 12 12 roll
Cha 16 15 roll

Gear Mwk bastard sword, mwk light spiked steel shield, full plate

Tactics
Full attacks with sword and shield, exchanging shield bash for a trip attempt before continuing with the sword. Trip on AoOs provoked by enemies trying to move past.


SCARY HARRY, 11TH LEVEL
As Harry's feat chains are pretty much completed by this level, his combat options and mechanical combos have become a lot more effective and interesting. The following includes bonuses to the shield bashes and combat maneuvers from warrior spirit.

Initiative +1

Defense
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 22 (10 + 9 armor, 3 shield (heavy shield, Shield Focus), 1 dex)
hp 98 (10d10+10 hit dice, 22 Con, 11 favored class)
Fort 9, Ref 4, Will 7; +3 vs Fear

Offense
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Power Attack: +1 dueling (PSFG) leveraging heavy spiked shield +16/+11/+6 (1d6+11 plus -2 AC, bull rush, demoralize, swift trip), mwk bastard sword +12 (1d10+5, 19-20/x2 plus demoralize)
Special Combat Abilities Power Attack: 2 AoOs/round; -2 AC until end of next turn on shield hit; free bull rush on shield hit, CMB +20; free demoralize on dealing damage, Intimidate +21; trip CMB +26 (using shield), or swift on shield hit +21, success provokes AoO; warrior spirit +3 enhancement bonuses/equivalent to shield 1 min/day (+1 dueling (PSFG) leveraging active)

Bastard sword attack bonus: 11 bab, 5 str, 1 mwk, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting, -3 Power Attack; damage bonus: 2 str, 3 Power Attack
Heavy shield attack bonus: 11 bab, 5 str, 2 weapon training, 1 enhancement (warrior spirit), -3 Power Attack; damage bonus: 5 str, 6 Power Attack
Trip CMB (shield): 16 as shield above, 4 Improved and Greater Trip, 2 enhancement (leveraging, warrior spirit), 4 luck (dueling (PSFG), warrior spirit)
Bull rush CMB (shield): 16 as shield above, 2 Improved Bull Rush, 2 enhancement (leveraging, warrior spirit)

Skills Intimidate +21 (11 ranks, 3 class, 5 str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 cha), 33 points in whatever

Ability Scores
Str 20 16 roll, 2 race, 2 level
Dex 12 12 roll
Con 14 14 roll
Int 12 12 roll
Wis 12 12 roll
Cha 15 15 roll

Gear Mwk bastard sword, mwk heavy spiked steel shield, full plate

Tactics
Full attacks with sword and shield, now using the shield as main hand weapon. Harry is now actually scary, getting a free action sure-fire demoralize attempt each time he damages as foe using Power Attack. In addition, each of his shield hits reduces the target's AC by -2 until the end of Harry's next turn. In a full attack, he uses his first shield hit to make a swift action trip attempt, leaving the enemy at -6 AC (and CMD) against the rest of his attacks and provokes an AoO from Harry, as before. Harry also makes a free bull rushes if the changed positioning is advantageous, usually following the first such success with a 5-foot step. And as before, Harry prefers using trip on AoOs provoked by enemies trying to move past.


Improvement suggestions are of course most welcome!

I have a siegebreaker build outline in my head as well, but I think it's less fun because the combos come online much later, and it doesn't have any room for trip or demoralize. But I'll post it later if you're interested.


I'd love to hear your houserules for the things you feel could benefit from that, as we will adopt most rules, if they make sense and make gameplay more dynamic and fastTypically, one of the greater time thieves are players having to roll multiple instances of one or more dice and add different bonuses. The easiest way to speed this up is to use one single d20 roll for each attack and also every additional attack and check contingent on the initial attack. Using Harry above as an example, at most he'd roll the d20 once when making a shield bash, adding his attack bonus to as normal to determine whether he hits, and use the same die roll plus his Intimidate skill bonus to determine whether his Cornugon Smash succeeds, the same die roll plus his trip CMB to determine whether his swift action trip attempt succeeds, and finally the same die roll plus his bull rush CMB to determine whether his Shield Slam bull rush succeeds.

Prepare your character sheet carefully, and have the relevant total typical values for each commonly used combat combo. If you played Harry, you'd for example have the bonuses mentioned above listed very clearly, allowing you to easily add up each value after you've rolled to hit with an attack. A tip is to use only the difference between your attack bonus and each commonly triggered bonus value, making the following additions and subtractions typically very quick and easy. (Harry at 11th level would for example have something like "Shield d20+16" and then "Intimidate +5, swift trip +7 (including -2 AC from hit), bull rush +7 (+11 if prone), AoO +2 (+6 if prone)" and so on. IME, after no more than a couple of RL hours of using this method in combat, most people start doing the easy calculations really quick and without much effort to distract them and decrease immersion.

In addition, you can use average damage values (rounded down) to speed things up further. In most games, somewhere in mid levels most damage die rolls either have an insignificant relative impact on the result (typical for weapon attacks due to large static bonuses), or include so many dice the standard deviation from the average have become very low (typical for damage spells and similar). IME, players who value immersion above the more "game-y" excitement of rolling dice tend to greatly prefer this method.

I often use both these methods for non-PC creatures in the games I run, and most of my players use at least one of them.


We also autocrit without having to confirm (So does the badguys, which is kind of a pain for me, as when i get hit with my high AC, its almost always a critical, but we are trying to figure out a rule that doesnt require more rolling to still make having a high armor useful vs criticals)My first random thought on this would be to simply reduce the damage dealt depending on the crit roll and the armor worn. For example, heavy armor could reduce the extra damage from crits on natural 20 die rolls by 1/4, extra damage from crits on 18-19 by 1/2, and extra damage from crits on any roll of 17 or less by 3/4. Medium armors would then not protect against the extra damage from natural 20 crits, reduce extra damage from crits on 18-19 by 1/4, and the extra damage from crits on anything below by 1/2. Light armor would only reduce the extra damage from crits on a roll of 17 or less. This would also increase the benefit of using heavier armor (which is currently rarely beneficial enough to counter the many drawbacks) and reduce the very high total impact on damage dealt which weapons with large crit ranges now have. And as an extra bonus, the various crit rider effect options (such as the "X Strike" feats) would see a bit more use as more creatures would be able to survive the extra damage.

I guess a method for including also creatures with only natural armor could be easily created, for example depending on how large proportion of their total AC value is derived from natural armor or something similar.


I did consider retraining Cleaving Finish when i get level 4, as i have a feeling i wont be one-shotting/kill shotting alot of enemies from that point forward anywayYeah, it tends to be most worthwhile for highly damage focused 2-handed reach weapon users, as they typically also benefit a lot more often from Cleave and other related stuff.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Harry has a couple problems with prereqs. Two weapon fighting requires 15 Dex and combat expertise/improved trip require 13 int. He needs to figure out a way to get both.

[Andreaz]

Harry has a couple problems with prereqs. Two weapon fighting requires 15 Dex and combat expertise/improved trip require 13 int. He needs to figure out a way to get both.

Dirty fighting breaks through almost all of that. Because screw those silly requisites.
In fact, dirty fighting also counts as some of those feats just for the sake of not having to pay two talents just to do one maneuver in a not crappy way.

[Florian]

Harry has a couple problems with prereqs. Two weapon fighting requires 15 Dex and combat expertise/improved trip require 13 int. He needs to figure out a way to get both.

The OP stated that prereqs are no problem. Strange, but, well...

Edit: I hate you, autocorrect.

[upho]

Harry has a couple problems with prereqs. Two weapon fighting requires 15 Dex and combat expertise/improved trip require 13 int. He needs to figure out a way to get both.Ooops! Seems Dirty Fighting went missing when I was messing around with different build orders. :smallredface:

And yeah, the OP can ignore the Dex 15 prereq of TWF.


The OP stated that prereqs are no problem. Strange, but, well...Yes, that would've been really strange, had it been true. But what the OP actually has said is (responding to the build not meeting the Dex 15 prereq of TWF):
Regarding stats, i've like them to stay as they are, as my character is working on a "leading roles" in the army we are conscripted to and i just like being a pretty boy and bedazzle of womenfolk on the side. I am sure my GM will not have a problem with me picking up TWF without the dex requirements, i do not foresee that to be an issue, as im sure he'd prefer that i keep the charisma for my character concept instead of forcing me to put it in dex and thus, making me even harder for him to hit. We dont stress the requirements that much thankfully, as long as we can make something we feel is sufficiently "cool" thematically.How did you manage to read this as "prereqs are no problem"?

And again, as far as I've understood the style and particulars of the OP's game, I fully support the GM in allowing PCs to ignore certain prereqs on a case-by-case basis. I'd also fully support using tax-cutting house rules like these (http://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/), as they improve the number of character concepts which can be made viable as well as class balance, without also introducing mechanical issues.

Hmm... Actually, I think those house rules would be perfect for the OP's game.

@EliteChoboHax: I really recommend you check out the "The Elephant in the Room: Feat Taxes in Pathfinder" house rules compilation I linked to above, and download the updated full rules document PDF (http://michaeliantorno.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/The-Elephant-in-the-Room-Feat-Taxes-in-Pathfinder.pdf)). I think these would be great also for a more low-fantasy gritty game style without 3PP material, as they allow further emphasizing cinematic martial combat, a much wider variety of thematic "cool" martial characters, and are very easy to implement (and feel more "realistic" IMO, if that is something you and/or your group values).

[EliteChoboHax]

Thank you all for the amazing input - I really do appreciate it.

I have opted into remaking my fighter as the Siege Breaker archetype for starters and see how that'll work out. I have linked the Feat Taxes document to the group and i am sure they will like the changes that it suggest, they seems very well thought out and would add some interesting options to our party.