Help me build a melee stone sorlock [5e]

[Ganryu]

So, we have a campaign coming up, the DM allows unearthed arcana, and he allowed us to rearrange a racial stat for whatever class we have. I love playing classes the way they shouldn't be played. Melee spell casters are like drugs for me. So, I was wanting to build a sorcerer(/warlock) with a blade that just spams quickened melee cantrips. I was hoping for some advice on what spells, and general build stuff. My personal rule is I will not use an attack that is not melee. We're starting lvl 4, std point buy. What I have:

Stats
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 18 (+2 at lvl 4, +1 racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 17 (+2 racial)

Classes:

2 level hexblade Warlock:
Invocations:
Eldritch Vision (detect magic at will)
Fiend Vision (Can see 120 feet through darkness, magical or otherwise)

2 lvl stone Sorcerer:

Don't know my spells yet. Part I need help with. I'm guessing Greenflame blade spam. Probably going to going for haste + quicken to get 3 strikes off a round, and sack spell slots for it.

Going for darkness centered on my blade is another option, just dive someone in darkness.

Probably shield.

Stone Sorcerer btw, lets me use an action to make my AC 13 + con (so 17). I'm using sword and board, so AC 19.

I'm thinking Sorcerer as the base, for the constitution saving throws. Could do warlock for the bonus +2 HP though.



But honestly, my goals just a melee sorcerer. Anyone have other suggestions? Maybe different archetype? Less Warlock? More Warlock?

[Detective]

If I may, I got to ask what do you intend to use most of the time in both melee, and ranged combat. In melee, do you prefer to use your sword, or would you prefer to keep using spells even in close range?

If you prefer the latter, then I think the "crossbow expert" feat could for, at least for just one part of its ability:

Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:

You ignore the loading quality of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.

This part of the crossbow expert also includes ranged spell attacks, last time I checked. If not, you can always rely on saving throw cantrips, or other higher level spells (even magic missle if needed) instead.

If you prefer to use your melee weapon in combat? Well... As far as I can tell, the greenflame blade spam isn't as useful as it sounds to you to me,- The extra fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier only applies to a second creature, and not the same creature if there is no other enemy nearby (You should ask your dm however). The extra "1d8" fire damage to the same creature will only apply at level 5.

I'm not really the best optimizer though, just giving my two cents.


P.S: Now that I think about greenflame blade though?, that or booming blade -could- have worked on my current paladin... Yet, I picked prestidigitation instead :redface:

Edit: Ok, I remembered that hexblade warlocks can us their charisma for their weapons. My bad on that one.

[igor140]

Not sure this helps you a whole lot, but i'm currently running a straight Hexblade Blade Pacter, and he is turning into a GOD. He was a bit squishy at first, but as of lvl 7, he actually became the party's tank because some of our party hated our barbarian and killed him off (that player was running two characters, and actually led the push against his barbarian). Now that he's level 9, my warlock can raise fallen enemies from the dead, can turn invisible, can fly, can double his hp, has advantage on all saves/ checks/ attacks, and can out-DPT anyone in the party. The catch-- as is the catch with all warlocks-- is that he only has two spell slots, which ties in to your topic because...

... Sorcerers are also a bit thin on spell slots. From what I've read, Stonecerers are CRAZY durable, perhaps second only to a high level Immortal Mystic. The problem in comparing these two classes is that warlocks have a LOT of resources to build themselves out in different ways: all of my invocations, along with the Hexblade subclass, and a WAY overpowered weapon for a level 9 character (though, he was still amazing with his previous +1 sword) mean that his burst damage (again, only able to be done twice) rivals a lvl 18 fighter, and his "regular" damage is still on par with a same-level fighter. And that's before we talk spells.

Sorcerers have more spells, but ALL of their power comes from spells and nothing other than spells. This means that while a Stonecerer may be quite defensive, it will never have anywhere near the melee DPT of a hexblade for one simple reason: no invocations. Even considering the sorcerer has far more spell slots, he will either be using spells to buff himself (and thus not doing damage), or using spells to deal damage (and thus not doing melee damage).

In other words, the Hexblade is a melee fighter with ranged options; the Stone Sorcerer is a spell-slinger with some melee options.

Now, i'm sure you've already evaluated these things, which is why you're looking at combining them... but the problem that I see is that both classes have crappy spell slots, and both have delayed progression into the "meat" of their power. For warlocks, they really need invocations to come into their own. For sorcerers, it takes a while to develop a worthwhile number of sorcery points and meta-magic options. Mixing the two classes, you'll be delaying ALL of that progression significantly, and likely won't make up those deficits until at least lvl 15. Sorcerer gives you more spell slots, warlock gives you more powerful spells... but ultimately, you're stretched a bit thin for the vast majority of your career.

ALL THAT SAID: Were I to be adamant about building a Stonelock Bladererer, I would prioritize stats CHA> CON>>> everything else (WIS for Perception?). At one level go Hexblade warlock for Eldritch Blast, medium armor, martial weapons, and CHA-based melee damage (meaning you won't need STR). At second level, take Stone Sorcerer* for the base AC (meaning you won't need DEX). At this point, it's up to you: you'll have the core of your offense (Hexblade/ Eldritch Blast) as well as the core of your defense (AC= 13+CON). Personally, I would focus on warlock for a while to get invocations and Pact Blade. Then pushing Sorcerer to lvl 3 gives you sorcery points (functionally extra spell slots) and your FIRST meta magic... but bear in mind that this is character level six. By comparison, a straight Stone Sorcerer would be using Aegis by now; a straight Hexblade would be raising fallen enemies from the dead and attacking twice.

tl;dr, I personally don't think it's a good idea to mix these two classes. But if that's the character you're building, I would first go one level of Hexblade, followed by one level of Stone Sorcerer, and then build out one OR the other until at least class-level 3 (which would be character level 4).

*Depending on how hardcore/ uptight/ RAW you want to be, your DM may not let you dual-class these two. Both are supposed to have "weird" origins, far more specific and binding that just picking up a book or an axe. If I were DM, I would insist on a well-developed backstory explaining how and why this character came to be... but that's just me. Your game may be different.

As to the Greenflame Blade, I tried it on a previous character and found it... lackluster. It's really handy the first few levels when you're fighting goblins and you can basically kill two or three at a time, but later on, 1d8 doesn't scale well for melee attacks. It sounds like it SHOULD (i mean, 1d8 is pretty solid for a melee strike), but when you consider that a lvl 5 Hexblade/ Bladelock would have 2 attacks, it doesn't stack well. The wording of GFB (and its counterparts) specifically states that it is a spell action that includes a melee attack, meaning that it is your ENTIRE action; completely ignoring second (or more) attacks. Also, right around this time, Bladelocks find other ways to stack on even more damage (Eldritch Smite, anyone?), which simply eclipses GFB.

[Kane0]

Would you be interested in going Goliath?

[Ganryu]

Not sure this helps you a whole lot, but i'm currently running a straight Hexblade Blade Pacter, and he is turning into a GOD. He was a bit squishy at first, but as of lvl 7, he actually became the party's tank because some of our party hated our barbarian and killed him off (that player was running two characters, and actually led the push against his barbarian). Now that he's level 9, my warlock can raise fallen enemies from the dead, can turn invisible, can fly, can double his hp, has advantage on all saves/ checks/ attacks, and can out-DPT anyone in the party. The catch-- as is the catch with all warlocks-- is that he only has two spell slots, which ties in to your topic because...

... Sorcerers are also a bit thin on spell slots. From what I've read, Stonecerers are CRAZY durable, perhaps second only to a high level Immortal Mystic. The problem in comparing these two classes is that warlocks have a LOT of resources to build themselves out in different ways: all of my invocations, along with the Hexblade subclass, and a WAY overpowered weapon for a level 9 character (though, he was still amazing with his previous +1 sword) mean that his burst damage (again, only able to be done twice) rivals a lvl 18 fighter, and his "regular" damage is still on par with a same-level fighter. And that's before we talk spells.

Sorcerers have more spells, but ALL of their power comes from spells and nothing other than spells. This means that while a Stonecerer may be quite defensive, it will never have anywhere near the melee DPT of a hexblade for one simple reason: no invocations. Even considering the sorcerer has far more spell slots, he will either be using spells to buff himself (and thus not doing damage), or using spells to deal damage (and thus not doing melee damage).

In other words, the Hexblade is a melee fighter with ranged options; the Stone Sorcerer is a spell-slinger with some melee options.

Now, i'm sure you've already evaluated these things, which is why you're looking at combining them... but the problem that I see is that both classes have crappy spell slots, and both have delayed progression into the "meat" of their power. For warlocks, they really need invocations to come into their own. For sorcerers, it takes a while to develop a worthwhile number of sorcery points and meta-magic options. Mixing the two classes, you'll be delaying ALL of that progression significantly, and likely won't make up those deficits until at least lvl 15. Sorcerer gives you more spell slots, warlock gives you more powerful spells... but ultimately, you're stretched a bit thin for the vast majority of your career.

ALL THAT SAID: Were I to be adamant about building a Stonelock Bladererer, I would prioritize stats CHA> CON>>> everything else (WIS for Perception?). At one level go Hexblade warlock for Eldritch Blast, medium armor, martial weapons, and CHA-based melee damage (meaning you won't need STR). At second level, take Stone Sorcerer* for the base AC (meaning you won't need DEX). At this point, it's up to you: you'll have the core of your offense (Hexblade/ Eldritch Blast) as well as the core of your defense (AC= 13+CON). Personally, I would focus on warlock for a while to get invocations and Pact Blade. Then pushing Sorcerer to lvl 3 gives you sorcery points (functionally extra spell slots) and your FIRST meta magic... but bear in mind that this is character level six. By comparison, a straight Stone Sorcerer would be using Aegis by now; a straight Hexblade would be raising fallen enemies from the dead and attacking twice.

tl;dr, I personally don't think it's a good idea to mix these two classes. But if that's the character you're building, I would first go one level of Hexblade, followed by one level of Stone Sorcerer, and then build out one OR the other until at least class-level 3 (which would be character level 4).


All valid, and does make me think more. And I've played straight Hexblade before, they are a TON of fun, especially lvl 10 with Armor of Hexes. Best moment ever I'd had in Dnd was the DM'ing sic'ing a CR 16 Marilith on us at lvl 5. The party was sure we were screwed, and the monster straight out Ko'd the Druid in beast form. I then killed it in one turn with Cursebringer by myself.

My thought is by going with Stone Sorcerer, I nail my stats to just 2. Con is my AC and health, Charisma is my attack stat with spell casting. Every other stat is literally flavor for me. If I got Con first, I get more health overall.

I'm going for melee so spell slots matter less, though Sorcery points definitely do, I'm a bit useless til next level when I get both Darkness and metamagic (quicken). With Quicken, I can hit with green flame blade multiple times, and get multiple melee attacks a round. If I can keep pumping this, I'll keep pace with the fighter later on. My goal ultimately is a sorcerer with melee attacks. At lvl 7 I should hit my stride getting haste (twinned preferably). I can then just keep dumping cantrip after cantrip out, making decent damage for using a class badly.

Thank you for the analysis there. Does point out how slowed I am. And its true, for like the next 2-3 levels I'm pretty much useless.

Is there any particular reason to get Pact of the blade though? I was thinking at it, I'm not sure there's anything I really NEED from warlock past lvl 2. The Fiend vision is nice to use inside a darkness is my only thought there. I'm going melee build, so eldritch blast isn't an interest. I'm tempted with Cursebringer, but then I would need strength, and ruins the point of the only 2 stats.

[Ganryu]

Would you be interested in going Goliath?


I could be. I just really want a melee (mostly) sorcerer

[igor140]

Is there any particular reason to get Pact of the blade though? I was thinking at it, I'm not sure there's anything I really NEED from warlock past lvl 2.

Well, at face value, not much. Being able to summon swords out of thin air is cool, and means you can never be unarmed (e.g., if you're captured). More importantly to me-- but perhaps not to your build-- are the invocations: Devil's Sight (Darkvision on steroids), Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker (<--adding that CHA bonus TWICE?! Yes please!)... and most importantly, Eldritch Smite.


With Quicken, I can hit with green flame blade multiple times, and get multiple melee attacks a round. If I can keep pumping this, I'll keep pace with the fighter later on.

Wow... I've never thought of that. That's a REALLY cool strategy. Lifedrinker would add a lot to that, but that's obviously not worth another 10 levels for that one invocation.


I'm going melee build, so eldritch blast isn't an interest.

Fair enough. I like to have "oh s***" options; a DM once gave an enemy speed boots and had him run away... 120ft is a long ways. But if you focus more heavily on sorcerer, that may not be an issue for you.


I'm tempted with Cursebringer, but then I would need strength, and ruins the point of the only 2 stats.

Actually, the official Hexblade as outlined by Xanathar's Guide to Everything got rid of Cursebringer for a few reasons and replaced with with Eldritch Smite. It's the same basic idea, but a little weaker, and-- most relevant to this discussion-- has Pact of the Blade as a prerequisite, not Hexblade. On the plus side, Eldritch Smite can be used with your pact weapon, so long as it doesn't have the two-handed tag. So my warlock uses a longsword with both hands as his pact weapon, which is also eligible for Eldritch Smite; meaning my STR is 8, and all of that damage is channeled through my CHA. So unlocking all of that would require three levels of warlock for Pact of Blade, and you could sub out one of your invocations for Eldritch Smite at that point.

Still, if you and your DM go a different way with it, don't let me stop you : )

[LeonBH]

But honestly, my goals just a melee sorcerer. Anyone have other suggestions? Maybe different archetype? Less Warlock? More Warlock?

I'd advise you to make that a 1 Hexblade/3 Stone Sorcerer split. Start as a Sorcerer for the CON save proficiency.

You will know 4 Sorcerer spells, so take Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, and one other spell of your choice. I recommend Misty Step. Your spell portfolio should be mostly defensive so as to protect you from going down easily. You don't have the high HP of the Barbarian, after all.

With this, your AC is 13 + 4 (CON) + 5 (Shield), with on-demand resistance to an elemental damage type, and disadvantage to all attacks against you. Blur will be your concentration spell until you get level 3 spells. This means you are incredibly hard to hit.

You will also know 2 Warlock spells. Armor of Agathys is your top pick for more survivability. You don't really need to know another spell so just take any one you like at this point. Only cast Armor of Agathys with your warlock spell slots.

With this, your average HP is 35, with an extra 5 THP. Thus you enter fights with 40 HP. Against elemental damage, you have resistance, so that's effectively doubled.

For metamagic, Quicken is your top choice, so that eventually, when you have more Sorcery Points, you can quicken attack spells and stack a GFB on top of that. This will be very deadly eventually, but for now it's just something you need to pick up. Your other choice needs to be cheaper, so Twin (for cantrips only) is a great option. However, be aware that you will get more use out of creating spell slots at this early level, rather than using metamagic.

For weapon choice, the Quarterstaff is your most damaging option. It works with Hex Warrior, so you can deal 1d8 damage using two hands without going Pact of the Blade.

For cantrips, since you want to be in melee, take GFB, BB, and Shocking Grasp. You know 6 cantrips in all, so there's enough space for a ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) and utility cantrips (Prestidigitation, Mirror Image).

With this, your damage comes out at level 4 to be 1d8+CHA (which is competitive with martial types), and at level 5 you will be doing 2d8+CHA with one BB casting (+2d8 if they move from their space). For a 1-round nova, you can do a Twinned BB + Quickened Thunderwave (+2d8). Otherwise, you can just keep doing Twinned BB to emulate Extra Attack, and then take short rests to recover two Sorcery Points.

I would level you to 5 Sorcerer first to get access to Haste (replacing Blur), and then level you to 5 levels of Warlock after that (to get Thirsting Blade).

[Ganryu]

I'd advise you to make that a 1 Hexblade/3 Stone Sorcerer split. Start as a Sorcerer for the CON save proficiency.

You will know 4 Sorcerer spells, so take Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, and one other spell of your choice. I recommend Misty Step. Your spell portfolio should be mostly defensive so as to protect you from going down easily. You don't have the high HP of the Barbarian, after all.

With this, your AC is 13 + 4 (CON) + 5 (Shield), with on-demand resistance to an elemental damage type, and disadvantage to all attacks against you. Blur will be your concentration spell until you get level 3 spells. This means you are incredibly hard to hit.

You will also know 2 Warlock spells. Armor of Agathys is your top pick for more survivability. You don't really need to know another spell so just take any one you like at this point. Only cast Armor of Agathys with your warlock spell slots.

With this, your average HP is 35, with an extra 5 THP. Thus you enter fights with 40 HP. Against elemental damage, you have resistance, so that's effectively doubled.

For metamagic, Quicken is your top choice, so that eventually, when you have more Sorcery Points, you can quicken attack spells and stack a GFB on top of that. This will be very deadly eventually, but for now it's just something you need to pick up. Your other choice needs to be cheaper, so Twin (for cantrips only) is a great option. However, be aware that you will get more use out of creating spell slots at this early level, rather than using metamagic.

For weapon choice, the Quarterstaff is your most damaging option. It works with Hex Warrior, so you can deal 1d8 damage using two hands without going Pact of the Blade.

For cantrips, since you want to be in melee, take GFB, BB, and Shocking Grasp. You know 6 cantrips in all, so there's enough space for a ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) and utility cantrips (Prestidigitation, Mirror Image).

With this, your damage comes out at level 4 to be 1d8+CHA (which is competitive with martial types), and at level 5 you will be doing 2d8+CHA with one BB casting (+2d8 if they move from their space). For a 1-round nova, you can do a Twinned BB + Quickened Thunderwave (+2d8). Otherwise, you can just keep doing Twinned BB to emulate Extra Attack, and then take short rests to recover two Sorcery Points.

I would level you to 5 Sorcerer first to get access to Haste (replacing Blur), and then level you to 5 levels of Warlock after that (to get Thirsting Blade).

This is an extremely helpful guide, thank you a ton. I think I'll be taking it.

[Quoz]

Another potent option to look at is Shadow Blade, particularly if you don't end up going to pact blade. A 2d8 one-handed weapon that scales up with spell level can really be abused with all the twin and quicken cantrip attacks. Another interesting option would be to go Great Weapon Master, particularly if you see yourself using the darkness/devil's sight often.

Since you have a generous GM with your racial choice, this opens up a lot of very interesting options. Dwarf (either +2 Cha / +2 Con or +1/+2 and +1 HP/lvl), Any Elf (for Elven Accuracy and better weapon proficiency) or something with suitable natural spellcasting (Firbolg with short rest Detect Magic, Disguise Self, and 1-turn invisibility)

[LeonBH]

Another potent option to look at is Shadow Blade, particularly if you don't end up going to pact blade. A 2d8 one-handed weapon that scales up with spell level can really be abused with all the twin and quicken cantrip attacks. Another interesting option would be to go Great Weapon Master, particularly if you see yourself using the darkness/devil's sight often.

Since you have a generous GM with your racial choice, this opens up a lot of very interesting options. Dwarf (either +2 Cha / +2 Con or +1/+2 and +1 HP/lvl), Any Elf (for Elven Accuracy and better weapon proficiency) or something with suitable natural spellcasting (Firbolg with short rest Detect Magic, Disguise Self, and 1-turn invisibility)

This is also a good route, but it's not compatible with Hexblade. It would have to be a pure Sorcerer build. This is because Hex Warrior, Pact of the Blade, and Thirsting Blade don't work with the conjured Shadow Blade.