Do people standing in enemy squares count for flanking?

[SangoProduction]

Sure, there is a talent in SoM to allow people to end their movement in enemy squares, but even in the base game, very small creatures can too, as can swarms.

So, in the case of you inhabiting an enemy's square, where are you, as far as flanking is concerned? Do you not flank, because you can't be on an "opposite side", or do you count as being on all sides?

What about how others treat your position? Do you provide flanking against the person?

[Elkad]

No idea if Pathfinder has an equivalent rule, but in 3.5 the answer is yes.

DMG 29, big and little creatures in combat.

"If a creature occupies part of an opponent’s space, it provides flanking to all allied creatures outside the opponent’s space"

[Florian]

Creatures below small mostly lack reach, so they have to enter the opponents square to attack. Swarms and Troops don't attack in the first place. Both don't flank.

[Axle-Gear]

According to to the PFSRD, in order to flank both flankers must be able to draw a line to each other through opposite sides of an enemy's space. As a combatant standing within an enemy's square can only draw a line through one side of that enemy's space, that combatant cannot flank that enemy.

[Would post links, but my post count is too low to do so.]

EDIT: Did a bit more reading, and remembered I can post quotes!


When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

This complicates things a little: If you're standing in the same space as a Large or larger creature, and an ally is standing such that you would normally count as flanking a space of that creature (like, imagine that each 5 foot square is a creature all its own), then you count as flanking that creature.

[ericgrau]

According to to the PFSRD, in order to flank both flankers must be able to draw a line to each other through opposite sides of an enemy's space. As a combatant standing within an enemy's square can only draw a line through one side of that enemy's space, that combatant cannot flank that enemy.
Also in the 3.5 SRD. But does PF have the other rule from the DMG or no? Or how does it rule on the situation?

The 3.5 SRD doesn't seem to mention the DMG rule though, or else it's in another spot I didn't find. And PF just copied the 3.5 SRD for flanking. A search for "provides flanking" turned up nothing, so if it does exist in either SRD then it doesn't have the same wording.

So most likely the answer is no, those standing in an enemy square can't flank that enemy. Unless somebody can dig up another rule we've missed.

[Florian]

This complicates things a little: If you're standing in the same space as a Large or larger creature, and an ally is standing such that you would normally count as flanking a space of that creature (like, imagine that each 5 foot square is a creature all its own), then you count as flanking that creature.

I think you missunderstood the quoted point. You can move through a space occupied by a creature that is 3 size categories larger or smaller than your character, but you can only end your turn in a free and unoccupied space. What you quoted deals with large(r) creatures being the flanker, them being able to occupy "corner" and "border" of a creature at the same type.

[Axle-Gear]

I think you missunderstood the quoted point. You can move through a space occupied by a creature that is 3 size categories larger or smaller than your character, but you can only end your turn in a free and unoccupied space. What you quoted deals with large(r) creatures being the flanker, them being able to occupy "corner" and "border" of a creature at the same type.

Shoot, I misread that. That's what staying up until the wee hours does. In that case, I stand by my original point: that standing in a creature's space means you can only draw a line through one side of said creature's space, and thus cannot grant a flanking bonus.

[BearonVonMu]

The mouser archetype for Swashbuckler explicitly counts as a flanking buddy when standing in a larger enemy's space. It grants other lovely perks as well, but if there is a class ability to give you something, that sounds like a strong point for anyone without that class not having it.

In better news, you get it at level 1, so perhaps a dip is in order?