I've finally done it. DM'd my first DnD campaign to 20th.

[Malifice]

Hey all.

Yesterday our group met for a session in my long running Age of Worms campaign (plus several other adventures converted to 5E).

The PCs succesfully completed my upscaled 20th level Tomb of Horrors (!!??!!) and recovered the Sphere of Annhilation, and the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (plus a Rod of Lordly Might, and nearly a dozen other magic items, and a cool half a million in gold). Next step is they intend to head off to fight Dragotha (the spellcasting, ancient red wyrm dracolich... in his lair).

Only one leg to go after that, and thats confronting Kyuss himself (CR 30 Demigod).

After calculating XP the Dwarf Paladin/ Cleric hit 20th, and isnt far off his first Epic Boon (not a bad score, along with the above mentioned Axe!). The Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster is in the same boat after just pinging to 20th level (and he's armed with Lightning and Aaqua; finessable and light long sword an shortsword that deal +1d6 extra lightning/thunder damage, allow him to fly, add +1 to his AC when used together, and can be struck together to create a lightning bolt).

The party are seriously tooled up (in addition to the above items, they have a fragment of the rod of seven parts, greater sphere of annhilation, staff of the magi, diadem of zosiel, and many more). 9th level slots are in play, and the Lore Bard is casting Wish.

What struck me is that in over 30 years of playing and running DnD (I started with AD&D and BECM in the early eighties) this is the first campaign I have ever run from 1st to 20th level.

The party are more like the Avengers now, than the skilled plebs they were at low-mid levels. They all have the means to fly (one way or another), teleport around the joint, alter reality with wish etc. The Druid/Paladin is a flying, divine smiting earth elemental (nicknamed 'the grav tank' by the other players. Demon Lords have become an 'easy- medium' encounter etc

Has anyone else run a game this high? What have been your thoughts?

[Randomthom]

Many years ago in 3.5e I ran a middle-earth campaign that went from lvl 1 to about 27. You know you've hit the crazy heights when you're designing encounters with 5+ Balors (Balrogs) all with class levels.

I was a rather youthful DM though so there wasn't much complexity to the campaign and I was probably a little over-generous with the awarding of XP.

The party contained a halfling Bard/Assassin, a straight Cleric (LE), a Paladin (who mistakenly was converted to the Cleric's religion & corrupted over time), a Ranger who seemed to permanently swing & miss, a Rogue and a Bladesinger (homebrewed version). We did a little bit of DM swapping and I sometimes played my Fighter/Rogue/Deepwood Sniper (favourite character ever and the very definition of glass cannon, once did 550+ damage in a single round from approximately ½ a mile away from his target).

Edit: Forgot to add my thoughts on going there level-wise. In 3.5 the combat became very slow with too many modifiers and spell effects etc. Planning encounters was extremely difficult (but I learned a lot fo tricks that remain with me to this day) as some would end up much easier than expected and one or two a bit harder. You're kind-of playing rocket-tag at these levels. That being said, it is fun to pull out those crazy monsters that you've been looking at in the monster manual for years or that mad plot that you can only justify with a high level spellcaster at it's core. Everyone should try playing at these levels at least once.

So far only gone to lvl 8 in 5e (Out of the Abyss), currently in some home-brew gameplay before we head back down to the underdark. It looks like the game can take a rather drastic turn around level 17 (9th level spells, some of the more powerful class abilities for non-multi-class characters). It's around here I'd be planning divine intervention, both benevolent and not.

[mephnick]

Has anyone else run a game this high? What have been your thoughts?

The players loved it but I found it very dull. I found at that point the rules don't even matter and I just say "Yeah, sure." over and over. Getting to 20 was a blast.

I feel like a level 20 campaign with no full spell casters could be really fun though.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Malifice, first congratulations. Making it that far is a sign you out together a good group of players and a good campaign.

Also thank you. Describing yiur level 19 and 20 players as being more "Avenger" like really made things click. I have never made it past level 7(!) so I have been wondering how the higher levels function.

[Tiadoppler]

Congratulations!

Do you have any recommendations (strategies, game prep advice, good houserules) for DMs who have not yet succeeded at getting a 5e campaign up to 20+, but are currently running a campaign that's quickly increasing in level? I'm asking for a friend.


Do you run with the books (especially MM for opponents) right in front of you, or do you make encounter sheets with all the stats you'll need? I've found that running combat gets tricky, especially as the full casters get into the weirder spells.

[Pex]

Mazel tov!

Closest I ever got as a player was level 18 in a 3E game. Oh the joy of casting Miracle.

I did manage to reach level 15 in a Pathfinder game and a 2E game. Oh the joy of casting Heal.

[Waazraath]

Congratz. We did a 1-20 once in 3.5, but to be honest that was a campaign that was designed to go to 20 (as in: at the end of every session we gained a level). Being 3.x, it ended in absurdity and a terrible book keeping excercise at the highest levels. But fun to play nevertheless, if only to be able to compare.

From what I've seen so far, I'd like to play 5e up to the highest levels. But at the current pace, in the campaign I'm DM'ing, it'll be 2022, in the one I'm playing probably 2025. Oh well.

[Millface]

Over the last 3 years with my crew we've run from 1-15+ four times now, and I always greatly prefer the levels prior to 15 than the ones after.

I feel like the game isn't nearly as well balanced for those levels, but then, the XP to difficulty tables in the DMG don't make much sense from the start. I mean, the new Tomb of Annihilation module has an encounter that is technically deadly+ all the way up to level 8 even though I'm sure my party will be fine at level 2.

I've pretty much had to home brew everything they'll face after level 15 or fill the encounter with so many monsters that it takes 18 years and we're still not actually finished with the combat, the encounter just moves out and starts a little encounter family and we're left with a sense of loss and longing. I will say the homebrewing is fun, my antagonist for every campaign I run is something from some other fiction. Vord from Jim Butchers Codex Alera, then Epics from Sanderson's Reckoners series, and now MTG Planeswalkers and Eldrazi.

At and after level 20, 5e is nearly unplayable, I think. Enemies have to either be insanely numerous or have one shot potential on the heroes/crazy damage shields/regeneration, none of which feels too great on either end of the table. My first campaign that did go to 20, the finale was the party vs. my CR 30 Vord Queen riding on the back of a Tarrasque and a level 18 shadow monk with Vord improvements... it was barely difficult for them, honestly. They burned it down insanely fast.

[Kane0]

Well, it's taken my PF group about 5 years to get from level 1-16 in Kingmaker, and we're nearing the final book now. So we will probably finish at level 17. So close, and yet so far :smallfrown:

[Citan]

Hey all.

Yesterday our group met for a session in my long running Age of Worms campaign (plus several other adventures converted to 5E).

Has anyone else run a game this high? What have been your thoughts?
Hey. Sincere congratulations.
I'm quite admirative (and maybe a bit jealous? XD) of people who manage to keep a game running over such a long timespan.
Very good game indeed. ;)

As such, I have no thoughts to share unfortunately, apart from awe at such a feat (I expect this game to have been played over several years ^^).

[Whit]

Things to do at lvl 20.
1. If they have to many powerful items hit them with a magic item eater spell monster trap etc . A spell like the old school mordenken Disconjunction
2. A monster that’s immune to everything but a special item
3. A creature life tap to a player so he takes 1/2 damage
4. Increase save difficulty
5. True sight and sword sharpness
6. New spells
7. Many other things. It’s time to be creative
8. Then it’s time to give them their place in the realm and use them as npc or stories of heroes

[Malifice]

Things to do at lvl 20.
1. If they have to many powerful items hit them with a magic item eater spell monster trap etc . A spell like the old school mordenken Disconjunction
2. A monster that’s immune to everything but a special item
3. A creature life tap to a player so he takes 1/2 damage

I'll answer the above questions in a second, but this one stood out a bit.

I disagree with those points mate. My players have worked hard in a campaign for 3 years of their actual lives. They've invested in my campaign (and I've invested in their characters) They've earnt those high level class features.

I dont want to arbitrarily strip them. I think I've used anti-magic 3 times in the whole campaign (two specific coridoors, and a demi-lichs lair action).

I can build encounters that challenge a high level group of PCs with potent magic items (including 2-3 artifacts) and 9th level magic.

Its time consuming (takes a few hours of prep to design around half a dozen encounters for the). No where near as bad as 3.5 though (a single high level opponent takes hours to prepare and stat up).

[Malifice]

Congratulations!

Do you have any recommendations (strategies, game prep advice, good houserules) for DMs who have not yet succeeded at getting a 5e campaign up to 20+, but are currently running a campaign that's quickly increasing in level? I'm asking for a friend.

Four main things I have noticed:

1) Spellcasters are no-where near the juggernaughts they once were at high levels. They only ever get a handful of higher level (over 5th level) spells, one of each level. They are useful, flashy, occasionally devastating (right spell, right opponent, short adventuring day nova, DM rolls cruddy saves), but not overpowering at all.

Also, as those bigger nastier spells come online, the frequency of legendary monsters (legendary resistances) increases (as do monsters with energy and often also magic resistance).

Our Fighter 5/ Swashbuckler 15 reliably is putting out now 1d8+8d6+6 [sword]+1d6 [thunder] then 1d8+1d6+6 [extra attack] plus 1d6+6+1d6 [lightning] TWF on his turn. Plus more with action surge, and superiority dice (used for precision attack, riposte and fienting attack). He outs out a consistent 50-80 points of damage per round.

Thanks to reliable talent, he cant roll less than 28 on any stealth check (or acrobatics check) and cant roll less than 25 on any deception or persuasion check. Most other skills he's proficient in he cant roll less than 20 on. He basically auto-succeeds in most tasks requiring an ability check.

The Warlock and Bard are constantly trying to find a way around energy resistance and legendary resistance (rather than bash down legendary resistance forcing a ton of saves, they tend to rely on spells that dont require saves).

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2) Doom clocks (or other forms of policing the adventuring day) are a must. If you dont have the PCs on the Doom clock, and leave them free to Nova encounters, then expect them to cream your encounters with the kinds of resources the have at their disposal without breaking a sweat (which is boring rocket tag).

That said one of the biggest drains for me as a DM has been contriving new doom clocks (or temporal constraints) to manage the adventuring day.

Recently (Tomb of Horrors) the inner tomb was re-fluffed as a demiplane that drains souls (DC 20 Charisma check each hour or lose -1 to all D20 checks and AC, and lose your highest level slot/arcanum; if the penalty reaches -6 you die). The PCs were pushed to complete the entire Inner Tomb (6 combat encounters, and a ton of traps) locate the Demi-lich (or not!) and escape with their lives before thier souls were consumed by Acererak.

For the next adventure they go toe to toe vs the Draco-lich Dragotha. For those familiar, in AoW one PC gets 'infected' with the spirit of an NPC who died at the draco-lich's hands (claws?) and desires revenge against it (PC gets possessed by a ghost basically). Ive decided that while possesed, the PC suffers nightmares, cant benefit from a long rest (treat it as a short rest) and must pass a DC 22 Wisdom save or suffer a level of exhaustion and 5d10 psychic damage on waking. Hopefully that pushes the whole party onwards.

Within that framework, the PCs have around 6 combat encounters (4 of which are optional - although if those 4 are completed they allow the PCs some much needed advantages against Dragotha)

The final leg of the campaign is where the PCS face Kyuss (CR 30). Those familiar with the adventure know that it's going to be easy to doom clock that one (PCs need to confront him by [midnight?] or he emerges from his prison and the Age of Worms begins, and the campaign ends with the PCs failure).

This one is going to push them. Im designing around 12 encounters (including CR 30 daddy Kyuss himself) plus random encounters. At this level they have extra resources (potions, scrolls) that they will need to fall back on to win.

They could just assault him directly, but if they dont shut down the 'unlife vortex' first and/or 'fight despair' in the city, he will be all but invincible (permanently hasted, 2 extra legendary actions (total of 5), 2 extra legendary resistances (total of 5), and all necrotic damage he deals - and he deals a lot! - is maximised).

Basically; I've gotten good at 'doom clocks' and similar ways to frame the adventuring day and keep the PCs moving forward (and ensure they cant nova stomp everything, and need to manage resources), but it does get hard to come up with new contrivances all the time, and keep it fresh after so long.

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3) Advancement is super fast from levels 1-3, then slows down to 4th, before 4th - 5th taking surprisingly long (but the step up in power being huge and catching you off guard as a DM). All up it took them probably 2 months to hit 5th. Levels 6-11 takes ages (we play 1 day a week with sessions of 4-6 hours most weeks, and those 6 levels took over 1 and a half years of real time to get through). Levels 12-20 on the other hand absolutely rocket past (1 level every 2-3 sessions, or 1-2 levels per month for the final 8 levels).

Its really contributed to the campaign reaching the heights it has. I applaud WoTC for doing it (speeding these levels up in 5E as opposed to slowing them down in other editions). Its directly contributed to the fact that this is the first time we've hit 20th.

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4) I've had to boost monsters to ensure they remain a threat to PCs. This is compounded more by the fact that I let them start with an extra free feat at 1st, and they have had decent magic items at all levels, and are now very stocked with potent magic items (including a few artifacts) and generally carry 2 x bags of holding full of healing potions. I've found (unsurprisingly) this has led to them punching well above thier weight.

Its an art more than a science (I eyeball the values in the DMG, and compare to other monsters of = CR). Often I'll advance a monster on the fly (Pro tip: Add +2 to the monsters AC and all D20 checks, saves, skills, ability DC's and attack rolls, increase damage dice by +1 step for all damage dice [so d6's become d8s etc], and increase HP by 50 percent. Depending on the monster, maybe add +1 attack with multiattack). It takes zero time to do, and the PCs are none the wiser.

Ive had to convert from 3.5 (and AD&D for some other modules I've inserted) so it's been relatively painless to do. Copy and past the 5E versions of the monsters onto a word document, and then quickly tweak to taste.


Do you run with the books (especially MM for opponents) right in front of you, or do you make encounter sheets with all the stats you'll need? I've found that running combat gets tricky, especially as the full casters get into the weirder spells.

Preparation, preparation, preparation.

I have a laptop with the pre-statted out monsters (and PDF of the module) in front of me, with the encounters laid out in the anticipated order of them happeneing. Notepad to the side (and maybe a map). DMs screen covering the notes. Books off to the side on a little bench. I'll also locate the miniatures I think I'll need before the session, and put them (in hiding) next to me in a plastic bag so they're easy to reach.

I rarely need to look anything up in the rules mid-game. I spend one night each week preparing for the weekend session (statting and reviewing monsters/ encounters so I know what they can do, and how they will do it).

Know your PCs also (and your players). While you cant always anticiapate what your players will do, you can know their characters abilities, bonuses and DCs/ saves, which helps you eyeball if an encounter is going to be too hard, or too easy.

The only thing I look up (other than the monsters/ combat encounters, and I have that document open all the time on my laptop so Im really just scrolling between encounters) is new class features and higher level spells that you dont see that often (when first used, so we do them right).

[Armored Walrus]

Bravo! You must be riding high at this point. Hope you're getting excited for the next campaign so you don't walk off the creative cliff once this ends. (hopefully as a player?)

I've never come close to those levels except back in the 90's in AD&D, and that was mostly because after a long summer of gaming two days every weekend, with fall approaching, we pretty much just jumped our characters up, all of us created our own artifacts, and then we closed the summer by pulling out the toughest monsters in the Monstrous Compendium, including Tiamat, iirc, and just seeing if we could beat them. (we did, handily, the Terrasque standing out as a particularly easy one) Amazing to see someone manage to keep an actual story going that long and getting to the point where your PCs are legends in their time.

[Malifice]

Over the last 3 years with my crew we've run from 1-15+ four times now, and I always greatly prefer the levels prior to 15 than the ones after.

I feel like the game isn't nearly as well balanced for those levels, but then, the XP to difficulty tables in the DMG don't make much sense from the start. I mean, the new Tomb of Annihilation module has an encounter that is technically deadly+ all the way up to level 8 even though I'm sure my party will be fine at level 2.

That comes down to how you run your encounters though. You and I have very different methods of doing encounters. You dont use a doom clock (letting your PCs nova encounters). That creates a very different style of game to mine (where the PCs generally will need to deal with 6+ encounters before long resting).


I've pretty much had to home brew everything they'll face after level 15 or fill the encounter with so many monsters that it takes 18 years and we're still not actually finished with the combat, the encounter just moves out and starts a little encounter family and we're left with a sense of loss and longing. I will say the homebrewing is fun, my antagonist for every campaign I run is something from some other fiction. Vord from Jim Butchers Codex Alera, then Epics from Sanderson's Reckoners series, and now MTG Planeswalkers and Eldrazi.

Screw that. I never use more than 7-8 monsters in one encounter. (One big CR boss, and a handfull of mooks, maybe also 1-2 'heavy' types, or a caster type). Recent encounters in Tomb of Horrors:


1 x 4 armed gargoyle (custom legendary CR 22 monster)
1 x mummy lord (increased all saves, AC, DCs, attack rolls etc by +2, increased HP by 50 percent, increased all damage die by 1 step) and 6 x 'mummy warrior' mooks (Mummies with multiattack, greatswords that deal an extra 3d6 necrotic, Str 20, and wearing banded armor for AC 17).
Demon horde (Marilith that can teleport as bonus action; increased AC, DCs, attack rolls etc by +2 and increased all damage dice by 1 step; increased HP to 250; Glabrezu with spellcasting as a Mage added on, and 6 x 'Sword demon' mooks - refluffed Tannaruks that let me use my Bloodletter minis!)
4 x Iron Golems (removed poison breath, reduced HP to 150 each, and reduced CR to 12)
1 x Demilich (lair and trap soul options added, increased AC by +5, tripled HP, increased all other saves, DCs by +2 and increased all damage dice by 1 step).


Thats 5 combat encounters, plus dozens of traps (traps having DCs 20+, with each dealing around 20d10 (110) damage). Most combat encounters last around 5 rounds give or take, and take around 15-20 minutes to resolve in real time.

No long rests allowed (or they could take one, if they want to risk the 8 x hourly Charisma saves to have their life drained out of them from the inner tomb demi-plane.)

I know I was boosting those encounters, but the party punch well above their weight due to several magic items (legendary/ artifacts) each and an extra feat per PC.


At and after level 20, 5e is nearly unplayable, I think. Enemies have to either be insanely numerous or have one shot potential on the heroes/crazy damage shields/regeneration, none of which feels too great on either end of the table. My first campaign that did go to 20, the finale was the party vs. my CR 30 Vord Queen riding on the back of a Tarrasque and a level 18 shadow monk with Vord improvements... it was barely difficult for them, honestly. They burned it down insanely fast.

Legendary resistances, legendary actions, and doom clocks are your friend.

[Malifice]

Bravo! You must be riding high at this point. Hope you're getting excited for the next campaign so you don't walk off the creative cliff once this ends. (hopefully as a player?)

Burnout has been an ever present threat. But I find that 5E's XP chart (which speeds up advancement post 11th) plus the increasing number of high CR 'solo' encounters at 11th+ level (which have a high XP yield) really help push you past that point.

It keeps everyone intrested. You see 20th level on the horizon, and see yourself (and the players) picking up speed toward it. It helps drive that momentum, and stops the game from stagnating too much.