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Trask
2018-02-12, 03:14 AM
Hello!

These are some house rules for 5e that are based around providing a better dungeon crawling experience. Advice and suggestions are welcome, but keep in mind the spirit of the rules here. Some of these changes might seem like "nerfs" and in a way they are, but the intent is not to just nerf classes. It is to bring back resource management as a fundamental part of the game.

My qualifications and experience for making this post is my recently completed run of "The Caverns of Thracia" in 5e, a well loved, not quite megadungeon from the era of od&d. I noticed many things running it mostly how the rules and expectations for 5e are just not in line with traditional dungeon crawling. I wanted to change that.

I make reference to B/X here. For those not in the know, B/X refers to the Basic/Expert set of D&D from 1981. I highly recommend the book as a DM aid, giving great advice and more fully fleshing out a lot of the mechanics I reference here.

Inspiration and rules are used from here
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2017/11/on-megadungeon-and-5th-edition-play.html
and here
http://dungeonofsigns.blogspot.com/2017/12/gold-for-experience-in-5th-edition-d.html

The Dungeon
The dungeon based play environment is highly dependent on resource management in form of spells, health, abilities, and most importantly, light. To this end I propose the following changes.
1. Light is a 1st level spell, can now be cast on an opponent's eyeballs (dex save to avoid) giving them the "blinded" condition for 1 minute. It can also be used to counter magical darkness.
2. Dancing lights is a 1st level spell but no longer requires concentration and lasts 1 hour.
3. Produce Flame doesn't provide light of the caster.
4. Continual flame creates a globe of fire that has double the light range of a torch, but cannot be moved
5. A caster with cantrips can cast 6 of them, each, per day. The exception is the warlock who takes the agonizing blast invocation, then these come back on a short rest for eldritch blast.
6. Goodberry provides healing but no longer nourishes you for an entire day.
7. Leomund's tiny hut is not a ritual.

These changes are meant to increase the importance of rations (mechanics for which are below), increase the importance of light sources, and decrease cantrips ability to create an abusable way to interact with the environment. What do I mean by that last one? Well let me explain.
In my experience running big dungeons a very important aspect of the crawl is interactivity with the environment. This interaction is often physical, touching the walls, pushing the bookcase, turning the sconces. This also opens up the world of traps which are *crucial* in dungeon crawling to create a tense environment that doesnt just rely on throwing monsters at players. Unlimited cantrips dont appear to clash with this but they do. Players will throw their firebolts at walls and roofs to check just about anything, will shape water away acid pools, will mage hand open every chest and door, will endlessly acid splash every lock. Cantrips and their effects themselves are not the issue, but throwing anything "unlimited" in a environment where resource management is going to matter is a bad idea. And its not that these cantrips are too strong in normal 5e play, theyre perfectly fine. But in this kind of game, they dont fit at all, they break the plausibility of the dungeon environment and trivialize what should be mainstays of the megadungeon crawling experience.

Rests
Resting is a core part of D&D. Abilities are keyed into rests, hp is tied to resting. 5e is mostly ok here, but it needs a few tweaks to be better.
1. Long rest "slow natural healing" variant.
2. Short rests only last 10 minutes.
3. "Second-Wind" no longer refreshes once you are out of hit dice.
4. Remove the "only one long rest per 8 hours" restriction.

As I said, the rest mechanics of 5e really arent bad for this, they just need some tweaking. Full healing on a long rest is too much, even in a non-megadungeon crawl game I would use this. It just makes resting feel like less of a "reset button". It also makes opens up the possibility of town downtime. Short rests only take 10 minutes so they can fit in better with hazard die checks (which are performed every 10 minutes). The second change is just to prevent a possible exploit where the fighter can simply keep short resting and using second wind all day until he is fully healed. 4. is just because i find that to be needlessly restrictive and requires more bookkeeping about time than i prefer. Also when long resting in the dungeon, the players will be subject to a 1 in 6 chance of a random encounter every hours (so eight). But any precautions they take, barricading the door, leomunds tiny hut, sleeping under a pile of garbage, sleeping in a secret room that they close behind them, any of these will reduce the chance to a 1 in 12 for every hours or if the DM deems the precautions as exemplary, no chance or simply a monster sign. Dont be too generous with this though, and monsters will catch on to player tricks eventually.

Dungeon Procedures
Big thanks to Courtney Campbell of the blog "Hack and Slash" for this one, he hits the nail on the head although I'll restate his points with few tweaks. You could also learn these by reading the B/X moldvay D&D books or pretty much any B/X retroclone. These are essential, more than almost anything else, for good dungeon play and I think its an absolute shame that they were thrown out.
1. The "dungeon turn" is 10 minutes. In this turn a player may do many things including, but not limited to, moving 12 squares or 120' feet unencumbered 8 squares or 80' encumbered, attempting to bash a door down, picking a lock, looking for a secret door, and short rest. Using a "dungeon turn" to accomplish an action that has no consequences will automatically succeed, similar to "taking a 10 or 20" from 3.5. If you want to do it faster, you can make the skill check and upon failure, the dungeon turn must be used.
2. The hazard die is a gameified mechanic so it may not appeal to all, but it works very well the structure your megadungeon play. Every ten minutes roll 1d6.
1) Encounter from a random encounter list.
2) Monster Sign
3) Torches Burn
4) Torches Burn & Lanterns burn. Ongoing effects, conditions, and statuses end.
5) Must short rest and share one ration among the party or gain a level of exhaustion.
6) Dungeon Sign

Every single dungeon ever should have a random encounter list. It adds SO MUCH to the dungeon eases the DM's workload a bunch to create a living environment. On 2 roll on your random monster table and determine some kind of premonition of that monster. Perhaps claw marks, a slime trail, droppings ect. Be creative. Torches have 3 statuses, Bright, Dim, and Burnt. Every roll of 3 or 4 makes the torches light levels go down one category. At Burnt the torch is depleted. At "Dim" a torch only provides half the normal light as dim light. A single flask of oil for a lantern can survive 4 depletions, going out on the fourth and suffers no dimming effects. On 4) All statuses, such as poisoned, spell effects that last 1 hour or shorter, and other ongoing effects in general will end. 5 is self explanatory. on 6, have some table for "creepy dungeon effects". A gust of wind that might blow torches out on a 2 in 6 chance. A corpse is discovered with random personal loot. Ominous sound or noises. Dungeon vertigo. Whatever you can think of to add atmosphere and a bit of mechanical challenge.

Dropping a torch causes it to go down one light category. Dropping a lantern may make it break and catch flame on 1 in 6 chance. To avoid this they must be set down gently, which takes an action. A character must have a free hand for both the torch and the lantern. Spells that do thunder damage or cause noise, immediately draw a 1 in 6 chance for a roll on the random encounter table.

Some will not like this unashamedly gameified mechanic and thats understandable. If this doesnt appeal to you then just use the classic method. Every turn roll d6, on a 1-2 a random encounter occurs. (You can make it only on 1 in 6 if you prefer to make some dungeons/areas more difficult and dangerous than others.) Torches last 6 turns (1 hour), oil flasks last 24 (4 hours). Track spell effects and conditions as normal.

Skills
The skills in 5e are mostly fine, they just need some standardized DCs. All non opposed DCs are 10+(1*x) with x being the Dungeon Level. This includes bashing down doors, picking locks, perception check, arcana checks ect. Checking for surprise on monsters and PCs is as simple as a standard DC 15 Perception check. This may be modified by extenuating circumstances that add +1 to the DC.
A few skill changes would be
Remove History(int) and replace with Appraisal(Int). History checks are not appropriate the mythic underworld of the dungeon where things should be strange and alien, discovered through roleplay, interaction with the environment, and chats with dungeon inhabitants. Appraisal is much more appropriate to determine worth of obscure items or if a seemingly worthless item actually has value.

On that note, do not let your players simply roll nature or arcana at every monster. Arcana should be reserved for magic effects, scrolls, weird happenings. Nature for plants, mundane animals, and extracting body parts. This removes the "i roll arcana on that monster" that just sucks the weird fun right out of it. This is more of a personal note, and you dont have to agree.

Dungeon Levels
Every level of the dungeon should have looping, nonlinear maps and multiple avenues into the next, or lower, levels. This makes dungeon play interesting and varied, with lots to explore.
1. Separate dungeon levels into tiers. Adventurer covers level 1-4, Heroic covers levels 5-8, and Super-heroic covers levels 9-12. The levels listed also correspond to CR, these CR levels will only be encountered in those dungeon levels. But this also means that dangerous monsters can come upon unsuspecting players. A CR 4 encounter could potentially wander into the 1st level of the dungeon, although these should be less frequent on the table. This forces players to play smart, and realize that not everything can be killed in a megadungeon, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

This gives clear expectations about difficulty, as well as a way for the game to continue even if some people dont show. Just explore in the upper levels where its easier!

Experience
Experience is on a 1:1 basis with gold pieces. All xp for killing monsters in reduced to 1/10th. There are many reasons for this, but I couldnt say it better than GusL on his blog "dungeonofsigns" so ill just rip it off straight from his post

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Advantages of Gold for Experience:

Demphasizes combat, as violence provides no mechanical advantage over negotiation or trickery. Demphasis allows encounters with creatures that are very dangerous to the party because there is no assumption that every encounter is a test of combat ability and no inherent mechanical benefit in destroying powerful foes.

Puts exploration, setting interaction and information gathering at the center of the play experience (rather then combat) by treating challenge types equally. With players seeking wealth determining what challenges (combat, puzzle, social) will best provide it at the lowest risk the locus of play shifts from tactical combat. With combat dethroned from its position as 'the' player activity there is more room for player retreat and even less need to 'balance' encounters.

Adjusts character goals by making them very clear and more open to player decisions.
Has a neutral (or perhaps even negative) moral valiance that is very natural to contemporary players in that everyone understands making money or starving - but is open enough to allow for a range of moral play from dastardly evil to saintly good.

Creates diegetic freedom, by simplifying goals and decoupling them from a specific narrative (XP for combat could do this as well - but since it favors one type of challenge over another and creates a narrative of relentless bloodshed it tends to require a heroic narrative to justify the sheer amount of murder involved). Players don't have to guess what the GM has structured as a story to move the game forward and will likely create their own goals based on interaction with the world and its factions.
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Always put MORE treasure than the characters need to advance on the levels. Players will absolutely miss stuff so dont make it too tight. And dont just put all the treasure behind monsters, otherwise its no different from xp for killing. Some treasure should be hidden, some (not much) unguarded, needed to be pried off walls in, art, paintings ect. Read the B/X D&D section on this as a guide to treasure generation.

Simple and clear mechanical explanation for how level advancement works, giving players metrics on determining reward vs. risk. This allows GMs greater freedom in obstacle design as reward is not coupled with the completion of a specific set of acts.

On death a new character either starts at 1/2 their experience or at the bottom of the level they were on. Whichever you prefer depending on how mean you are. Speaking of experience...

The table needs to be reworked. Characters advance far far too quickly for megadungeon play. Threats that menaced a 3rd level party would be absolutely trivial by 5th or 6th level. Particularly when extra attacks and new spell levels come into play. This wont work for a dungeon that uses multiple levels of varying threats as a feature. Characters just skyrocket through the levels on a bumpy and uneven path. My suggestion is to raise what you need to advance. Here is a good suggestion. Or use the B/X cleric table.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/793t6t/dd_5e_experience_table_adjusted_for_old_school/

Other General Houserules and Tips
1. Either remove darkvision from a
a) All races.
b) All races except Mountain Dwarves and Rock Gnomes and Dark Elves
b) All races except Dwarves, Gnomes, and Elves.
However you wanna do it, but please do it. Too many races have darkvision it is absolutely ridiculous. It directly contrasts with needing light and managing your light resources. Also remember that perception checks have disadvantage in dim light, which is what darkvision sees.

2. Replace encumbrance with something easier to use so you'll actually use it. Your strength score = The number of significant items you can carry. A significant item is everything that isnt jewelry, clothes, palm sized objects. Ammo, torches, and similar things are 5 to use 1 strength slot. oil flasks, potions, weapons, armor is all 1 slot. Heavy armor and Heavy weapons are 2 slots. 200 coins is 1 slot. Going over slots gives you the encumbered condition.

3. Use morale. http://www.neuronphaser.com/dungeons-dragons-5e-morale/ The megadungeon and its de-emphasis on charging into combat needs good morale rules. Making an intimidation check against the creature of the highest charisma forces a morale check. The monster's roll will have advantage the enemy has not had to make a morale check yet. A failed morale check is not necessarily a turn and flee in terror, but may consist of an ordered retreat or starting of negotiations.

4. Restock the dungeon. Use your random encounter tables for inspiration or just be creative! More powerful monsters wandering up into the empty rooms of the upper levels is a classic way to keep things fresh and dangerous.

5. Reaction rolls. Not every monster will fight to the death, or even fight at all! Of course if you know a monster will attack the players, a hungry beast or a pack of orcs hunting them then do as you please. But if ever unsure, use a reaction table. Heres a sample.

Reaction Roll Table (2d6+ 1/2 of Highest PC Charisma modifier)
ROLL RESULT EXPLANATION
2 or less Immediate Attack: The monsters are so offended that they attack immediately.
3-7 Unfavorable: The monsters do not like the player characters, and will attack if they may reasonably do so.
8-11 Favorable: The monsters will consider letting the player characters live if they choose to parley; it does not necessarily mean that the monsters like the player characters.
12 or more Very favorable: The monsters (or perhaps only the monster leader) do, in fact, like the player characters; this does not mean that the monsters will just hand over their treasure, but it
does indicate that they may choose to cooperate with the player characters in mutually beneficial ways.

6. Use hirelings and retainers! There arent really any hard and fast ways to do this in 5e, but i would recommend allowing players to hire "guards" as in the monster manual for a rate of 5gp/per day to fight or "commoners" as torchbearers and general laborers for 1gp/day but these will not fight under any circumstance and will mostly run and hide. A player may have a number of hirelings equal to their charisma modifier at one time. They may also have 1 henchman who is a classed character no less than 2 levels below the character. These make excellent replacement characters. Their hiring process should be roleplayed, and they should have names. Henchman get a 1/2 share of any treasure (and experience) gained in an adventure. Retainers of any kind will not suffer to be used as cannon fodder or abused in any other way. Hirelings are subject to morale rolls when 1 PC falls and when 1/2 the PCs are down as well as when they are used as bait/fodder ect.

7. Try to develop a culture of ending every session with a return to town. This way between sessions people who cant make it can just hang in town, and new players can join. The town should be a stable, safe place. Put some cleric temples with healing and resurrection services, (I use standards of 250-500gp for a general magical service. Identify, healing, restoration ect.) and 2000 gp for resurrections.

Conclusion
D&D can be many things to many people. 5e is a fine game, nothing wrong with it as it. But its not suited to megadungeon, or just big dungeon, play. Its much more focused around the encounter based railroad "plot" narrative of modern games. Theres nothing wrong with that! But its not what all of us prefer, so i made this to help anyone who wants to make their game
1. Less focused on killing
2. More focused on exploration
3. Low story, easy have a loose attendance and many different players come in and out.

Premade Mega-dungeon Recommendations
Rolling your own is fun and rewarding, but not everyone has that kind of time. I totally respect that so here are some great dungeons to cut your teeth on. Not all of these are "mega" in the traditional massive sense but they'll serve fine for a first foray. Most of these will require conversions, but it shouldnt be hard to do on the fly.

1. Barrowmaze Complete for 5e. A great megadungeon converted to 5e. See a review here http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=977
2. Stonehell. Requires conversion. Review http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=648
3. Tomb of Abysthor. A 3.5 adventure so probably easier to convert. https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_7286.phtml
4. The Caverns of Thracia! Its what I just ran and I highly highly recommend it. Get the 3.5 version for an easier conversion. https://rpggeek.com/thread/1353429/masterpiece-pure-and-simple-well-if-massive-dungeo
5. Dyson's Delve. Very simple and super easy to run. This might be your best bet for a starting point. https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/dysons_delve.pdf
6. The Darkness Beneath. A megadungeon posted in the OSR Magazine Fight On! Very fun and creative with good magic items and lighthearted stuff. http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=669 first level review here
7. Megadungeon #1. Not really a megadungeon but just great tips for 5e dungeon play. More issues have been released, theyre good and informative reads. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/227977/Megadungeon-1
8. Maze of the Blue Medusa. A system neutral piece of art. Its so interconnected, so interwoven, UNBELIEVABLY creative and interactive. A masterpiece. But not reccomended for a beginner DM.
http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=2990
9. Rappan Athuk. A famous and notorious MASSIVE megadungeon. Truly this thing is the biggest dungeon on the list. Its a freaking monster. But if thats what you want, this is the best source. Oh and Orcus himself is at the bottom. For 3.5 http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=1008

Orrrr you can be a cool kid and roll up your own megadungeon! Dont be daunted, you can build it as you go. Construct the first level, enough for a session. Build and add on as you go. You should have 20 rooms or so on the first level, but its not that hard and fast, but 20 rooms should be a good minimum. Have enough xp in gold for at least double the xp needed for first level. This will let the experience be truly exploratory and player driven.

Here are some good essays on the subject, MUST READS if you are rolling your own dungeon!
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?168563-Dungeon-layout-map-flow-and-old-school-game-design&p=2949651#post2949651
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon

If you didnt like these rules, please tell me why but keep in mind what the rules are for. Please come at me with critiques grounded in the vision I have here

BeefGood
2018-02-12, 11:54 AM
Interesting post; thanks. A few things--


1. The "dungeon turn" is 10 minutes. In this turn a player may do many things including, but not limited to, moving 12 squares or 120' feet unencumbered 8 squares or 80' encumbered, attempting to bash a door down, picking a lock, looking for a secret door, and short rest.

10 minutes seems like a long time for some of those activities. For example that's 12 feet per minute, unencumbered. That's very slow.
Is the combat round (6 seconds) also modified?



diegetic

I don't know this word. I found a reference to sound from offstage versus onstage, but I don't understand it in the context of your post. Can you explain?



Other General Houserules and Tips
1. Either remove darkvision from a
a) All races.
b) All races except Dwarves and Gnomes

I'm on board with either of these two options. So many races have darkvision that it seems less like a neat ability that distinguishes one race, and more like something everyone's expected to have, and if you don't have it, you're a loser.
I've also considered a variant--no player characters, or important NPCs, have darkvision but other members of the races do. For example, "After Burskold the dwarf's lack of dark vision led to a number of pickaxe injuries, he was cast out of the mine and his clan, and had no choice but to take up the adventuring life."

mephnick
2018-02-12, 12:18 PM
Anyone thought about just bringing back low-light vision? I didn't find it all that difficult to keep track of.

Zanthy1
2018-02-12, 01:04 PM
Anyone thought about just bringing back low-light vision? I didn't find it all that difficult to keep track of.

That's absolutely something I have toyed around with. I only give Dwarves darkvision, elves get low-light, humans and halflings get nothing.

Essentially, if the creature is generally an underground dweller, it has darkvision. If it has special eyes, low light (like having good night vision). Everything else nothing special.

willdaBEAST
2018-02-12, 01:22 PM
"diegetic" I don't know this word. I found a reference to sound from offstage versus onstage, but I don't understand it in the context of your post. Can you explain?

Apparently it means narrative, I work as a sound designer for film and have only come across it in the context of diegetic sound. Diegetic sound is when you see a radio on screen and the music sounds like it's playing from that device. Films or shows will often go from non-diegetic sound to diegetic sound during scene transitions.

Trask
2018-02-12, 02:14 PM
Interesting post; thanks. A few things--

10 minutes seems like a long time for some of those activities. For example that's 12 feet per minute, unencumbered. That's very slow.
Is the combat round (6 seconds) also modified?


I don't know this word. I found a reference to sound from offstage versus onstage, but I don't understand it in the context of your post. Can you explain?


I'm on board with either of these two options. So many races have darkvision that it seems less like a neat ability that distinguishes one race, and more like something everyone's expected to have, and if you don't have it, you're a loser.
I've also considered a variant--no player characters, or important NPCs, have darkvision but other members of the races do. For example, "After Burskold the dwarf's lack of dark vision led to a number of pickaxe injuries, he was cast out of the mine and his clan, and had no choice but to take up the adventuring life."

It may seem slow, but its taking into account everything the PCs are doing during that time. Mapping, paying attention (their passive perception) and generally moving very carefully through a cramped, claustrophobic dungeon environment. They can move double that rate but disallow mapping and give disadvantage (-5) on passive perception. If they dont map, and get lost 5 levels deep running out of food and torches, well thats a feature of the dungeon crawl.

The combat round is unaltered, in old school games it was a 10 second round but I dont think it matters that much either way.

As for the word diegetic...I didnt write that, I used the words of GusL from DungeonofSigns. But I assume he simply means freedom of narrative, freedom "on stage" as it were. The players are not bound to any specific DM plot when they use gold for xp, they always know what their goal is and they can find their own way of achieving it all the time.

Trask
2018-02-12, 02:16 PM
Anyone thought about just bringing back low-light vision? I didn't find it all that difficult to keep track of.


That's absolutely something I have toyed around with. I only give Dwarves darkvision, elves get low-light, humans and halflings get nothing.

Essentially, if the creature is generally an underground dweller, it has darkvision. If it has special eyes, low light (like having good night vision). Everything else nothing special.

Thats totally a valid solution as well. It would even work well with the mechanics presented with no tweaks. Races with "low light vision" see a torch is at its "dim" status as if it were at its "bright" status.

JellyPooga
2018-02-12, 02:27 PM
The proliferation of Darkvision doesn't bother me; you need a dim light source to see without penalty, so any party wants to be carrying some kind of light regardless.

The 10 minute dungeon turn is way too long. Either that or the speed is too slow. If someone was taking 10 minutes to map and search 120ft, I'd be telling them to hurry the **** up.

Casting Light on someones eyeballs is stupid. 'Nuff said. Disclaimer; in my opinion.

Tanarii
2018-02-12, 02:28 PM
Skills
The skills in 5e are mostly fine, they just need some standardized DCs. All non opposed DCs are 13+(1*x) with x being the Dungeon Level. This includes bashing down doors, picking locks, perception check, arcana checks ect. Checking for surprise on monsters and PCs is as simple as a standard DC 15 Perception check. This may be modified by extenuating circumstances that add +1 to the DC.
A few skill changes would be
Remove History(int) and replace with Appraisal(Int). History checks are not appropriate the mythic underworld of the dungeon where things should be strange and alien, discovered through roleplay, interaction with the environment, and chats with dungeon inhabitants. Appraisal is much more appropriate to determine worth of obscure items or if a seemingly worthless item actually has value.

On that note, do not let your players simply roll nature or arcana at every monster. Arcana should be reserved for magic effects, scrolls, weird happenings. Nature for plants, mundane animals, and extracting body parts. This removes the "i roll arcana on that monster" that just sucks the weird fun right out of it. This is more of a personal note, and you dont have to agree.This is far too high DCs for 5e. The default DC for 5e should be DC 10. With the understanding that many, if not most, thing won't require a check at all if the PCs take 10 times as long to do it and the only consequence for failure is time. In other words, if it would normally be a check if done in a combat round, they can do it in a minute of stress-free out of combat time. If it could be done in a minute or so in a rush (check required), they can take a "Dungeon Turn" of 10 minutes to do it automatically.

Obviously that wouldn't apply to things like disarming a trap that will go off if the check is missed, and in fact that's a good example of something that might also typically be higher than DC 10 in the first place. But picking an untrapped lock, or perceiving not-hidden monsters, or bashing down doors? You don't even need to roll if there isn't time pressure of some kind (ie they can take a dungeon turn), and they sure don't need to be DC 15-20 unless it's a special lock or door or perception situation of some kind. Even then they can taking time if that's feasible.

Also your problem with Lore checks comes from allowing players to make the checks for things PCs can't possibly know. Don't allow that. Lore checks are to recall information, and again if you knew it and have sufficient time, you automatically can recall it. Do not allow checks to determine the state of the characters information in the first place.


It may seem slow, but its taking into account everything the PCs are doing during that time. Mapping, paying attention (their passive perception) and generally moving very carefully through a cramped, claustrophobic dungeon environment. They can move double that rate but disallow mapping and give disadvantage (-5) on passive perception. If they dont map, and get lost 5 levels deep running out of food and torches, well thats a feature of the dungeon crawl.Anyone Mapping or Navigating or Tracking or Foraging doesn't get to use their Passive Perception at all. See the adventuring chapter. This matters during surprise, because each character's surprise is determined individually, so one character can't alert another to prevent them from being surprised.

Obviously, they can have a stealthy scout ahead (as a separate party per the PHB) who tries to detect non-ambushing enemies before any encounter begins, and allow them to set the terms of the encounter, including ambushing themselves. Or a scout/front line checking for traps and the like.

Trask
2018-02-12, 02:32 PM
The proliferation of Darkvision doesn't bother me; you need a dim light source to see without penalty, so any party wants to be carrying some kind of light regardless.

The 10 minute dungeon turn is way too long. Either that or the speed is too slow. If someone was taking 10 minutes to map and search 120ft, I'd be telling them to hurry the **** up.

Casting Light on someones eyeballs is stupid. 'Nuff said. Disclaimer; in my opinion.

Even with the dim light penalty, the point of managing your light is that running out of it should be a SERIOUS problem, not a minor inconvenience. It also places a "hard limit" on the players dungeon delve for the day.

I can see where you're coming with the light and tbh I just sort of added that in because thats what it used to be able to do. If you dont like it, it should be easy to come up with a new power for light to make it 1st level spell worthy.


This is far too high DCs for 5e. The default DC for 5e should be DC 10. With the understanding that many, if not most, thing won't require a check at all if the PCs take 10 times as long to do it and the only consequence for failure is time. In other words, if it would normally be a check if done in a combat round, they can do it in a minute of stress-free out of combat time. If it could be done in a minute or so in a rush (check required), they can take a "Dungeon Turn" of 10 minutes to do it automatically.

Obviously that wouldn't apply to things like disarming a trap that will go off if the check is missed, and in fact that's a good example of something that might also typically be higher than DC 10 in the first place. But picking an untrapped lock? You don't even need to roll if there isn't time pressure of some kind (ie they can take a dungeon turn), and it sure doesn't need to be DC 15-20 unless it's a special lock of some kind. Even then they can just pick it by taking time.

Also your problem with Lore checks comes from allowing players to make the checks for things PCs can't possibly know. Don't allow that. Lore checks are to recall information, and again if you knew it and have sufficient time, you automatically can recall it. Do not allow checks to determine the state of the characters information in the first place.

Yeah you're right, looking at it now that DC is too high. And I should clarify in my post that using up a dungeon turn to do something can lead to automatic success if there are no penalties. Its clear in the source material, it was just my sloppy error.

Foxhound438
2018-02-12, 02:42 PM
2. The hazard die is a gameified mechanic so it may not appeal to all, but it works very well the structure your megadungeon play. Every ten minutes roll 1d6.
1) Encounter from a random encounter list.
2) Encounter from a random encounter list.
3) Torches Burn & Lanterns burn
4) Torches Burn & Lanterns burn. Ongoing effects, conditions, and statuses end.
5) Rest and eat a ration or gain a level of exhaustion.
6) Monster Sign


I'll focus my comment on this. I really like the idea, but I feel it's not the best execution. Not every 10 minutes needs to have an event like this, for one, and your result for 5 is... beyond suspension of disbelief. You basically have to sit down and eat a full day's worth of food every hour (on average) or die. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Darkest Dungeon, but I hate when I get hungry for 5 rooms in a row and have to back out because pure RNG.

You'd probably be better off upping die size to a d8, or 10 to give some room for "uneventful" results. 1 and 2 +/- based on how populated an area is for an encounter is fine. After encounter rolls maybe have some blank space of "nothing notable occurs" outside of what the players do. After that, one result is a minor mishap (something like drop your pack into a puddle of water, damaging something within; a loud sneeze that might make the next monster you fight start hidden since it knew you were coming; a torch seems to go dimmer out of nowhere due to imperfect manufacture). You could build a whole sub-table for that. another result could be a hint (either for a monster or maybe a chamber nearby). One result is a chance of a major mishap, which might require a saving throw of someone against something that isn't a trap but could be very detrimental (something like slipping into a big crack in the ground and getting stuck a ways down, taking damage and requiring multiple turns to escape; some part of the tunnel you're in collapses, either preventing progress or escape for maybe a number of days; some putrid water drips down on someone, possibly causing disease). Again, you could make a whole table for that. You could probably squeeze in "random good event" somewhere in there too if you went up to d10 (stuff like find a bunch of edible plants, previous adventurer's bundle of torches, a potion, etc). This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure this can be perfected with more time.

Torch burning should just be ran by time rather than by random chance. It would seem pretty lame to me if the first 15 rolls were mostly "torch drop" and suddenly your group's running out of light in the first 3 rooms.

Trask
2018-02-12, 02:52 PM
I'll focus my comment on this. I really like the idea, but I feel it's not the best execution. Not every 10 minutes needs to have an event like this, for one, and your result for 5 is... beyond suspension of disbelief. You basically have to sit down and eat a full day's worth of food every hour (on average) or die. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Darkest Dungeon, but I hate when I get hungry for 5 rooms in a row and have to back out because pure RNG.

You'd probably be better off upping die size to a d8, or 10 to give some room for "uneventful" results. 1 and 2 +/- based on how populated an area is for an encounter is fine. After encounter rolls maybe have some blank space of "nothing notable occurs" outside of what the players do. After that, one result is a minor mishap (something like drop your pack into a puddle of water, damaging something within; a loud sneeze that might make the next monster you fight start hidden since it knew you were coming; a torch seems to go dimmer out of nowhere due to imperfect manufacture). You could build a whole sub-table for that. another result could be a hint (either for a monster or maybe a chamber nearby). One result is a chance of a major mishap, which might require a saving throw of someone against something that isn't a trap but could be very detrimental (something like slipping into a big crack in the ground and getting stuck a ways down, taking damage and requiring multiple turns to escape; some part of the tunnel you're in collapses, either preventing progress or escape for maybe a number of days; some putrid water drips down on someone, possibly causing disease). Again, you could make a whole table for that. You could probably squeeze in "random good event" somewhere in there too if you went up to d10 (stuff like find a bunch of edible plants, previous adventurer's bundle of torches, a potion, etc). This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure this can be perfected with more time.

Torch burning should just be ran by time rather than by random chance. It would seem pretty lame to me if the first 15 rolls were mostly "torch drop" and suddenly your group's running out of light in the first 3 rooms.

Thanks, thats a good critique. You can definitely customize the table to your own liking. Some people might replace one of the random encounters with "dungeon sign" which is like a creepy dungeon happening, sounds, smells, stumbling on a corpse. Thats a good idea too. Also the rations things is mostly gameified but youre right its not really realistic. Maybe a good fix is that the party has to share one ration? Or maybe just excise the rations bit entirely if you dont like it. Its really workable.

And yes I agree that the random chance for torches and lanterns could be annoying, so it should be easy to just track it with standard dungeon turns. I just put that in there because its a popular method nowadays to reduce DM bookkeeping. As long as players are ok with the gamey nature of it, it seems like it would make things run really smooth and fast.

Tanarii
2018-02-12, 02:56 PM
Even with the dim light penalty, the point of managing your light is that running out of it should be a SERIOUS problem, not a minor inconvenience. It also places a "hard limit" on the players dungeon delve for the day.

I can see where you're coming with the light and tbh I just sort of added that in because thats what it used to be able to do. If you dont like it, it should be easy to come up with a new power for light to make it 1st level spell worthy.I find that the Light cantrip is a major issue for characters underground anyway, because it often gives them away long before they encounter enemies.

However, I agree the Light Cantrip removes a major resource management aspect from the game, both in terms of providing light to see by, and the encumbrance necessary to carry sufficient light sources. And resource management is often considered a key component of old-school dungeon crawls. Same with Food and Water, obviously. Also carrying capacity of things like Sacks.

Also using variant Encumbrance rules matter a lot. I don't like the "slot" method for encumbrance. Instead players total up their normal gear, and determine spare capacity. If they exceed that spare capacity they can always leave something behind. My players regularly leave behind stuff to carry away more loot.

Personally I decided to leave the easy removal of resource management (Light, Food, etc) in the game anyway. As long as players actually think about it at some point.


Yeah you're right, looking at it now that DC is too high. And I should clarify in my post that using up a dungeon turn to do something can lead to automatic success if there are no penalties. Its clear in the source material, it was just my sloppy error.Since you're definitely using time as a resource, taking a minute to do something vs 10 minutes is a pretty major consideration. :smallwink:


Edit: Also Angry DM wrote something on Time:
http://theangrygm.com/hacking-time-in-dnd/

JellyPooga
2018-02-12, 03:46 PM
Even with the dim light penalty, the point of managing your light is that running out of it should be a SERIOUS problem, not a minor inconvenience. It also places a "hard limit" on the players dungeon delve for the day.

Stumbling constantly into traps and ambushes because you're operating with a -5 to Passive Perception is pretty serious. That's a big penalty. But point taken. Perhaps imposing a combat penalty to operating in dim light could be an alternative to taking Darkvision away from races that have it?

Trask
2018-02-12, 04:21 PM
Stumbling constantly into traps and ambushes because you're operating with a -5 to Passive Perception is pretty serious. That's a big penalty. But point taken. Perhaps imposing a combat penalty to operating in dim light could be an alternative to taking Darkvision away from races that have it?

Thats not a bad option. But it seems that at that point darkvision is just so crippled that you might as well not have it at all. But either making the price of darkvision very high or not having it at all are pretty functionally identical. Really the only major difference is if you want players getting lost in the dark to be a risk, which I personally find to be very evocative and scary.

Tanarii
2018-02-12, 04:38 PM
Thats not a bad option. But it seems that at that point darkvision is just so crippled that you might as well not have it at all. But either making the price of darkvision very high or not having it at all are pretty functionally identical. Really the only major difference is if you want players getting lost in the dark to be a risk, which I personally find to be very evocative and scary.The other option is to make not having Darkvision very appealing. Personally, the few times I've allowed Variant Humans as one shots, I've found the level 1 Feat makes them a huge draw. That might just be because my normal campaign doesn't use Feats. But I recall them being common in AL as well.

Trask
2018-02-12, 04:43 PM
The other option is to make not having Darkvision very appealing. Personally, the few times I've allowed Variant Humans as one shots, I've found the level 1 Feat makes them a huge draw. That might just be because my normal campaign doesn't use Feats. But I recall them being common in AL as well.

Thats another thing I have to tackle, but was kind of beyond the scope of this post. I dont think feats work well in the megadungeon setting where smooth and progressive power increases are much better. But at the same time I like having more humans than not in my games and feats make them attractive. I'll have to work that one out.

JellyPooga
2018-02-12, 05:29 PM
Thats not a bad option. But it seems that at that point darkvision is just so crippled that you might as well not have it at all.

Having Darkvision that comes with a penalty if used in dire circumstances is better than the alternative of not having it at all and having worse penalties in the same circumstances.


But either making the price of darkvision very high or not having it at all are pretty functionally identical. Really the only major difference is if you want players getting lost in the dark to be a risk, which I personally find to be very evocative and scary.

To be fair, Darkvision is largely a ribbon feature anyway. Unless the whole party has it, you're going to need light. If the whole party does have it, you probably want light anyway. If you want the PCs getting lost in the dark, whether they have Darkvision or not isn't the issue; there are plenty of ways to get them lost or restrict their perception and lack of light is probably the least of them. Labyrinthine tunnels, smoke or mist, illusions, secret doors, revolving rooms, foliage or debris, swirling dust/sandstorms, furniture, water...the list goes on.

Yeah, darkness is an evocative conditon, but it is still evocative for those with Darkvision and no light; they can see better than "not at all", but they're still prey to the unseen and hidden and that -5 makes a lot of things unseen. Even something casually hidden (Easy DC:10) becomes something of a challenge to spot (effective Average DC:15), let alone anything that's hidden better...let's say, a Bugbear lying in wait, for example; Passive Stealth 16, possible +5 from advantage for having time to prepare an ambush, add an effective +5 for the dim light = DC:26 against the PCs regular Perception. That's the kind of Passive Perception only a Rogue with Expertise and Observant, i.e. built specifically for spotting stuff, has. That's just a CR:1 Bugbear.

Trask
2018-02-13, 01:03 AM
Having Darkvision that comes with a penalty if used in dire circumstances is better than the alternative of not having it at all and having worse penalties in the same circumstances.



To be fair, Darkvision is largely a ribbon feature anyway. Unless the whole party has it, you're going to need light. If the whole party does have it, you probably want light anyway. If you want the PCs getting lost in the dark, whether they have Darkvision or not isn't the issue; there are plenty of ways to get them lost or restrict their perception and lack of light is probably the least of them. Labyrinthine tunnels, smoke or mist, illusions, secret doors, revolving rooms, foliage or debris, swirling dust/sandstorms, furniture, water...the list goes on.

Yeah, darkness is an evocative conditon, but it is still evocative for those with Darkvision and no light; they can see better than "not at all", but they're still prey to the unseen and hidden and that -5 makes a lot of things unseen. Even something casually hidden (Easy DC:10) becomes something of a challenge to spot (effective Average DC:15), let alone anything that's hidden better...let's say, a Bugbear lying in wait, for example; Passive Stealth 16, possible +5 from advantage for having time to prepare an ambush, add an effective +5 for the dim light = DC:26 against the PCs regular Perception. That's the kind of Passive Perception only a Rogue with Expertise and Observant, i.e. built specifically for spotting stuff, has. That's just a CR:1 Bugbear.

Now thats a scary bugbear, remind me to bring backup characters if I ever play in your games :smallbiggrin:

JellyPooga
2018-02-13, 02:53 AM
Now thats a scary bugbear, remind me to bring backup characters if I ever play in your games :smallbiggrin:

That's just a regular Bugbear with +6 Stealth. It's the conditions, i.e. preparing an ambush spot in the dark, that make him really scary. Don't bring a back-up character...bring a torch, because Darkvision just doesn't cut it in the dungeon :smallwink:.

Trask
2018-02-13, 02:55 AM
That's just a regular Bugbear with +6 Stealth. It's the conditions, i.e. preparing an ambush spot in the dark, that make him really scary. Don't bring a back-up character...bring a torch, because Darkvision just doesn't cut it in the dungeon :smallwink:.

Fair enough! That concept of darkvision works just fine with these rules.

JellyPooga
2018-02-13, 04:29 AM
Moving the conversation back to the 10-minute exploration turn, with particular focus on the Hazard Die, I'd point out that using these in conjunction will really slow things down. Not only are you creating an environment where the players are moving at snails pace, but you're rolling dice for random encounters too. I mean, you could get a scenario where in the first half hour of in-game time, the players have only mapped two or three squares, fought three groups of wandering monsters and taken a short rest; depending on group, that could be a whole game session and they've gone nowhere and done virtually nothing. And where are all these monsters coming from? It was "dungeon quiet" a minute ago and now there's sudden gribblies coming out the walls every 100ft? What the...?

In a mega-dungeon, you want exploration to be fast; there's a lot of ground to cover and only so much (actual) time to do it in; no-one wants to spend three gaming sessions getting nowhere fast because the random encounter table keeps coming up "wandering monster" and the house rules say you can't explore faster than a Sunday afternoon pootle. An "exploration turn" should let the players...well, explore.

A 10 minute turn is fine if the players are actually getting something done in that time; let them map a few squares; around the corner, through that door, the bottom half of those stairs going up (weren't we on the top floor?), not just the corridor or room they're in. That gives some meaning to the choice between taking a 10 minute rest and spending those minutes getting some mapping done; the way you've written it, players may as well Short Rest after every fight/encounter because they're going nowhere fast either way. Making an Exploration Turn something that reveals a heap of map also gives the players meaningful choice between "exploration time" and "real time"; do they want to really search this room for hidden treasures/doors/clues in "real time" or do they want to gloss over it in "exploration"?

NRSASD
2018-02-13, 08:38 AM
@Trask Posts like these are why I frequent this forum. Great suggestions, thank you!

Tanarii
2018-02-13, 10:23 AM
To be fair, Darkvision is largely a ribbon feature anyway. Unless the whole party has it, you're going to need light. If the whole party does have it, you probably want light anyway. Dark vision is in no way a ribbon feature, unless your entire adventures are above ground and during daytime hours.

The Loght cantrip has a bright light radius of 20 ft and a dim light of another 20 ft. Same for a Torch. A lantern has 30ft and 30ft.

Darkvision gives 40ft of bright light and 20ft of dim with Light/Torch, and 60ft of bright light with a lantern. That's a big difference in being able to see targets at all, and taking penalties to perceive hidden creatures or things.

Further more, Scouts are very likely to be operating sufficient distance ahead of the party to count as a separate party, so they can use Stealth. How far is required depends on your DM, but if she's going by the DM screen noise distances about 70ft is right. Regardless, having Darkvision mean being able to operate outside even a Lamps area of light, giving them a huge advantage over a scout without Darkvision.

JellyPooga
2018-02-13, 10:34 AM
Dark vision is in no way a ribbon feature, unless your entire adventures are above ground and during daytime hours.

The Loght cantrip has a bright light radius of 20 ft and a dim light of another 20 ft. Same for a Torch. A lantern has 30ft and 30ft.

Darkvision gives 40ft of bright light and 20ft of dim with Light/Torch, and 60ft of bright light with a lantern. That's a big difference in being able to see targets at all, and taking penalties to perceive hidden creatures or things.

Further more, Scouts are very likely to be operating sufficient distance ahead of the party to count as a separate party, so they can use Stealth. How far is required depends on your DM, but if she's going by the DM screen noise distances about 70ft is right. Regardless, having Darkvision mean being able to operate outside even a Lamps area of light, giving them a huge advantage over a scout without Darkvision.

I'm in no way saying Darkvision is useless, only that it's use is limited. It's ribbon, not a lodestone. A party with a lantern can see 60ft. A PC with Darkvision can do that without a lantern, except he has a penalty for the whole distance instead of half. If the party has a lantern, the guy with Darkvison can see a little better in that 31-60ft range. That's it. It's not an ability that's breaking any games, or even ruining the atmosphere, even if resource management (torches, oil, etc.) is a big factor.

Tanarii
2018-02-13, 11:04 AM
The ability to stand outside the radius of light and see is not minor. The ability to not be the one carrying a light, standing within light, and still see beyond the area the light carrying person is lighting up is not minor.

Also most parties, in my experience, use the Light cantrip, not lamps. Even though it has a bigger radius.

It's not a ribbon by any normal meaning of that term.

BeefGood
2018-02-13, 11:53 AM
Hello!
In my experience running big dungeons a very important aspect of the crawl is interactivity with the environment. This interaction is often physical, touching the walls, pushing the bookcase, turning the sconces.

Thanks for this observation; it will help me envision the type of atmosphere I'm trying to create.


Regardless, having Darkvision mean being able to operate outside even a Lamps area of light, giving them a huge advantage over a scout without Darkvision.
Yes. This scenario is my main concern regarding Darkvision. Consider further that halflings are at this "huge disadvantage" and that rogue, a common choice for scouting duties, is a canonical occupation of halflings. This is a substantial nerf to halflings; it almost forces a player to ditch halflings in favor of woodelves. This is why I say that the current implementation of darkvision seems like an excuse to point at certain races and say "hah hah hah you can't see." I'm not saying that was the designers' intent but I think that's the result.

Trask
2018-02-13, 12:38 PM
Moving the conversation back to the 10-minute exploration turn, with particular focus on the Hazard Die, I'd point out that using these in conjunction will really slow things down. Not only are you creating an environment where the players are moving at snails pace, but you're rolling dice for random encounters too. I mean, you could get a scenario where in the first half hour of in-game time, the players have only mapped two or three squares, fought three groups of wandering monsters and taken a short rest; depending on group, that could be a whole game session and they've gone nowhere and done virtually nothing. And where are all these monsters coming from? It was "dungeon quiet" a minute ago and now there's sudden gribblies coming out the walls every 100ft? What the...?

In a mega-dungeon, you want exploration to be fast; there's a lot of ground to cover and only so much (actual) time to do it in; no-one wants to spend three gaming sessions getting nowhere fast because the random encounter table keeps coming up "wandering monster" and the house rules say you can't explore faster than a Sunday afternoon pootle. An "exploration turn" should let the players...well, explore.

A 10 minute turn is fine if the players are actually getting something done in that time; let them map a few squares; around the corner, through that door, the bottom half of those stairs going up (weren't we on the top floor?), not just the corridor or room they're in. That gives some meaning to the choice between taking a 10 minute rest and spending those minutes getting some mapping done; the way you've written it, players may as well Short Rest after every fight/encounter because they're going nowhere fast either way. Making an Exploration Turn something that reveals a heap of map also gives the players meaningful choice between "exploration time" and "real time"; do they want to really search this room for hidden treasures/doors/clues in "real time" or do they want to gloss over it in "exploration"?

The 10 minute turn allows for 12 squares of movement unemcumbered, and then a hazard die check. Used on a 1 in 6 or 2 in 6 chance, its not constantly bombarding the players unless they get really unlucky. And even then, reaction rolls, morale checks, and building a good random encounter table, these can really spice up the session. In that post on "The Alexandrian" he describes how nearly half of the encounters of the whole night's session were random ones, but they didnt feel like a tax. The helped make the dungeon feel alive where monsters dont wait in rooms to be hacked.

With reaction rolls, intelligent monsters might not even want to fight you, morale rules ensure that most monsters will be wise enough to not fight to the death against people they dont even know for no reason, and a good random encounter table has more than just monsters that immediately attack. It has monsters doing stuff, it has monsters fighting other monsters, it has fellow npcs wandering, it has traders wandering around who trade between the dungeon factions and just want a nice neutrality. Its an encounter, it doesnt necessarily have to be combat.

And if it is too much, many levels may have their own random encounter chances. 1 in 6 every other dungeon turn, every third turn ect. The number values in these rules arent as important as their principles, as long as its not too easy it should work just as well as what I have. Dont take the numbers as gospel here.

Tanarii
2018-02-13, 12:55 PM
Rather than use slow speed for a ten minute exploration turn, just tell players if they want to thoroughly do something and automatically succeed, it takes ten Times as long per area.

That means moving at 1/10 speed while carefully checking for traps and threats, as opposed to just walking along depending on passive perception or investigation. It means taking ten minutes or more to carefully check a room out, instead of giving it a quick once over using passive perception or investigation.

In other words, the automatic success rule already means players will often want to move at 1/10th speed while moving along. So I base the distance they can move on that. 300 ft per 10 minutes, or 200 ft per 10 minutes while moving stealthily. In squares, that's 60 per "turn" while searching, and 40 per turn while searching stealthily. It's still very very fast compared to old school speeds. Realistically in most close set dungeons it means you just jump to the next encounter as part of a turn. So I generally just make my Time Pool checks after an encounter, and before they start searching the area of the encounter which usually adds another die to the time pool at the end of searching. (see angry DM link for time pool).

Edit: the other reason I do a check after combat is that's usually noisy. Angry' Time Pool doesn't check every ten minutes, just after a lot of noise or on the hour.

Trask
2018-02-13, 07:45 PM
@Trask Posts like these are why I frequent this forum. Great suggestions, thank you!

Thank you! If you ever run your own megadungeon please tell me about it! :smallsmile:

Beelzebubba
2018-07-22, 12:51 PM
Oops, accidental necromancy from posting to the wrong tab.

Psikerlord
2018-07-23, 01:02 AM
I prefer these changes to standard 5e. I dont like the hazard die rolling all the time, I imagine you'd see a lot of random encounters (but I guess if you use the reaction table, few will be fights).

The thing I generally dont like about megadungeons is... they usually dont make any sense, and they are kind of railroady in their own way - you are always exploring the megadungeon, not able to venture off elsewhere. If there is a megadungeon on the region map, I like it to be just one hook of many - players might go there from time to time, explore a bit, but then are free to head off to other places.