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View Full Version : 2 level wizard dip for melee rogue- Bladesinger or War Wizard?



Mikal
2018-02-12, 08:56 AM
For an Elven Arcane Trickster, I'm looking to add a little bit of ritual spellcasting goodness as well as leaving an opening for more spell levels down the line.
Current thought process though is a 2 level dip only, and trying to figure out which would be better.
Going with a Booming Blade melee rogue with an Owl familiar for flyby advantage when needed.

19 dex and 16 int for the character, with the first feat going to Elven Accuracy for 20 Dex. Eventually taking Sentinel and War Mage for extra Booming Blade fun.

Thoughts and opinions on which is better and why is appreciated.

What I have so far:

Bladesinger Pros-
Boosts last entire time Bladesong is up
Bladesong recharges on short rests
Extra 10 ft. speed is nice.
AC boost is larger than War Wizard

Bladesinger Cons-
Only lasts for 1 minute, and usable only twice before recharge is needed
Save boost is only for concentration, and is not as large as the War Wizard ability. Will not be using many concentration spells.
No Initiative boost

War Wizard Pros-
Usable at any time needed (as long as reaction is available)
Save boost is for any failed saving throw, not just concentration
Initiative boost

War Wizard Cons-
AC/Save boost requires a reaction, which eventually competes with Sentinel/OA chances
AC/Save boost is only for that specific attack, instead of lasting longer like with Shield/Absorb Elements

Aett_Thorn
2018-02-12, 09:22 AM
Since you’re a melee character, I’d say that Bladesinger is better. I think that War Wizard would be better if you were ranged, but the reaction ability will definitely compete with your own Rogue reactions and potentially your War Caster reaction ‘opportunity attack’. You can choose to turn on Bladesong when you need it, and then it’s mainly passive.

mephnick
2018-02-12, 10:05 AM
Bladesinger. Bladesong twice per short rest basically means every combat on most days.

The War Wizard reactions are good, but you have other things to use it for. Initiative is vastly overrated, especially for a non-assassin rogue, and you'll still have a decent bonus anyway.

Deathtongue
2018-02-12, 08:21 PM
You have a very good intelligence score, so I would go with Bladesinger.

That said, I think War Wizard edges out Bladesinger SLIGHTLY at higher levels for a rogue multiclass. A floating RETROACTIVE +4 bonus to saves as a reaction is very powerful, especially in conjunction with Evasion and effects that have an end-of-turn save. And while you'd think Shield would be superior due to the higher bonus, Arcane Deflection is retroactive as well and doesn't eat up spell slots. But the advantage of Bladesinger is moderately higher at lower levels and only a tiny bit less at higher levels.

It may not even be a bad idea to pick up a third level of wizard, that way your rogue gets three third level spell slots (with Arcane Recovery). And having access to extra castings of Misty Step / Shadow Blade / Dragon Breath (for familiar) / Blur / Phantasmal Force / Web is fun, even if you're going Arcane Trickster.

Citan
2018-02-12, 08:21 PM
For an Elven Arcane Trickster, I'm looking to add a little bit of ritual spellcasting goodness as well as leaving an opening for more spell levels down the line.
Current thought process though is a 2 level dip only, and trying to figure out which would be better.
Going with a Booming Blade melee rogue with an Owl familiar for flyby advantage when needed.

19 dex and 16 int for the character, with the first feat going to Elven Accuracy for 20 Dex. Eventually taking Sentinel and War Mage for extra Booming Blade fun.

Thoughts and opinions on which is better and why is appreciated.

What I have so far:

Bladesinger Pros-
Boosts last entire time Bladesong is up
Bladesong recharges on short rests
Extra 10 ft. speed is nice.
AC boost is larger than War Wizard

Bladesinger Cons-
Only lasts for 1 minute, and usable only twice before recharge is needed
Save boost is only for concentration, and is not as large as the War Wizard ability. Will not be using many concentration spells.
No Initiative boost

War Wizard Pros-
Usable at any time needed (as long as reaction is available)
Save boost is for any failed saving throw, not just concentration
Initiative boost

War Wizard Cons-
AC/Save boost requires a reaction, which eventually competes with Sentinel/OA chances
AC/Save boost is only for that specific attack, instead of lasting longer like with Shield/Absorb Elements
Hi!
My vote goes for Bladesinger, without any doubt.

Course of thoughts: as an Arcane Trickster, you should have several ways to avoid being targeted too often.
Plus you already have Shield for round-long AC boost, Absorb Elements for elemental damage, Evasion to laugh at many damaging effects, Uncanny Dodge for unavoidable damage, AND you'd also like to use OA as often as you can.
I think War Wizard is either overkill or plain redundant. You have much enough to do with your reaction as it is, especially if you plan on getting Sentinel later.

Compared to that, Bladesinger, while using a bonus action (which you have plenty of uses for too, between Cunning Action and Mage Hand) and being limited, will, for the only investment of one bonus action on first turn...
- helps you spare bonus actions later that would have been spent on Dash (10 feet may not seem much, but often makes the difference between reach and waste, or danger vs safety).
- helps you spare Shield spells and concentration saves (+4 permanent AC for the whole encounter).
- helps you keep concentration when saves are required.

And as an Arcane Trickster, you will often wade into melee, and you will generally use a concentration spell (Fog Cloud, Blur, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Blade etc).

No doubt. Bladesinger FTW. :)

Mikal
2018-02-13, 08:17 AM
Interesting. Everyone's thoughts aligned with mine on it. Was just curious to see if anyone would favor war wizard and why on this, but didn't want to taint replies with my opinion beforehand. Thanks!

Snowbluff
2018-02-13, 08:30 AM
Considering your build, taking wizard means you can pick up shield and absorb elements on top of having uncanny dodge. I think you’d be doing swell on the reaction department.

Plus having the blade cantrips on a rogue is very good. You can SA with the weapon attack part.

Dudewithknives
2018-02-13, 10:42 AM
I would say bladesinger too.

Take find familiar, Mage armor, shield and absorb elements.

Would work very well. Also with he added spell levels you should hit Haste or Shadow Blade faster.

Byke
2018-02-13, 11:44 PM
Third option...to think about Divination wizard...Portent is just that good and and can be used offensively and defensive. (It's won and saved encounters in some of our games).

Ivor_The_Mad
2018-02-14, 10:09 AM
I guess i'm the odd one out but I have to go with the war wizard it gives a good boost to the AC and the other abilities work well I think. It make you hard to hit.

Mikal
2018-02-14, 10:24 AM
I guess i'm the odd one out but I have to go with the war wizard it gives a good boost to the AC and the other abilities work well I think. It make you hard to hit.

Honestly what made me even consider it was the +4 save boost and Intelligence to initiative. The +2 AC is ok, but it's less than the shield spell and Bladesinger style can provide, and Bladesinger provides it more consistently, allowing me to use my reaction elsewhere.

Ivor_The_Mad
2018-02-14, 10:32 AM
Honestly what made me even consider it was the +4 save boost and Intelligence to initiative. The +2 AC is ok, but it's less than the shield spell and Bladesinger style can provide, and Bladesinger provides it more consistently, allowing me to use my reaction elsewhere.

Yah I am partly bias toward Xanathar classes.

Joe dirt
2018-02-14, 11:11 AM
Blade singer hands down combined with mobility feat makes a character that can hit and move

add long strider and wood elf u can have a character that can move up to 130ft a round and still attack

Also take shield, find familiar (owl) for sneak attacks, absorb elements, mage armor, green flame blade, and booming blade